Generation IV Internal Engine - Are there any ported aftermarket LS3 heads that are worth upgrading to for an 08 LS3?

Hi, I have a 2008 Corvette LS3 MN6. I currently have Kooks 1 3/4 headers, catted 3 x 3 midpipe, Borla cat-back, and Callaway Honker CAI with a tune. The car put down 428 RWHP and 418 RWTQ SAE on a dyno jet.

When attempts were initially made to port the LS3 heads, most were only reporting around a 6 RWHP gain and even a loss in TQ in the midrange, but this was around a year ago. Recently, I have read several tuners and companies posting around 30 - 40 RWHP gains by porting the LS3 heads. Vengeance Racing and ECS posted a couple of threads with these results from TEA Stage 1 heads. Can anyone post other numbers and confirm this? If I add a cam, I want to be sure that having the heads ported will yield at least 30 - 40 RWHP and similar TQ numbers, in order to warrant the added cost of labor and porting service as well, since the initial posts about a year ago where not very promissing, and did not justify the cost, but other recent posts have me thinking and revisiting the possibility of getting my stock LS3 heads ported. I am looking for real gains, without taking into account milling the heads, and this would be used with a mild - moderate sized cam.

Check out April issue of GMHTP magazine. There is a full article on an 08 C6 LS3 using our Stage II LS3 Camshaft and adding WCCH Stage II LS3 Cylinder Heads. The C6 made 482rwhp with our camshaft and made 518rwhp with the addition of CNC WCCH Cylinder heads.

If we can help you out with either dont hesitate to give me a call.

Also, we have used quite a few sets of TEA Stage I Cylinder Heads and made 500+ everytime.

Check out April issue of GMHTP magazine. There is a full article on an 08 C6 LS3 using our Stage II LS3 Camshaft and adding WCCH Stage II LS3 Cylinder Heads. The C6 made 482rwhp with our camshaft and made 518rwhp with the addition of CNC WCCH Cylinder heads.

If we can help you out with either dont hesitate to give me a call.

Also, we have used quite a few sets of TEA Stage I Cylinder Heads and made 500+ everytime.

Ron, so are you now in favor of using the WCCH over the TEA's?

They both work well. Both are priced about the same. Both seem to make relatively close horsepower. We work closely with TEA and WCCH. I dont think you could go wrong with either.

Give me a call if we can help you out.

BTW, the C6 that was modified in the article referenced above was completed by RedLine Motorsports.

I'm surprised more people haven't chimed in on this one. I think what Brasil is asking is; are there any aftermarket heads that would warrant a change from the LS3's that he has already? Meaning is a change to aftermarket heads an upgrade or is he better off sticking with the LS3's which can be ported and made even better than they already are?

I'm curious on this also.

They both work well. Both are priced about the same. Both seem to make relatively close horsepower. We work closely with TEA and WCCH. I dont think you could go wrong with either.

Give me a call if we can help you out.

BTW, the C6 that was modified in the article referenced above was completed by RedLine Motorsports.

I think the porting technology has gotten better as well as camshaft profiles in the last 6-7 months. Ron's cam happens to be a nice match for these types of flow characteristics.

Ron, I think that article hasn't hit the newstand yet!! We got an early look!

Howard

I vote WCCH. :D

I vote WCCH. :D

Why do you prefer them over the TEA's?

I'm surprised more people haven't chimed in on this one. I think what Brasil is asking is; are there any aftermarket heads that would warrant a change from the LS3's that he has already? Meaning is a change to aftermarket heads an upgrade or is he better off sticking with the LS3's which can be ported and made even better than they already are?

I'm curious on this also.

I think you need to re-read his post, Doesn't look like this is what he was asking and what he was asking got answered pretty darn good.

Why do you prefer them over the TEA's?

I've run Richards heads on my 346 and now the 403. I must have spent several hours on the phone talking about the L92's. He's got a great track record.

WCCH is the way to go

What are the WCCH and TEA flow numbers as opposed to the unported LS3's? What are the stock 2008 Corvette LS3 heads equipped with in valves, springs, retainers and such? Is it possible to upgrade the stock LS3 heads to the LS7 titanium intake valves, springs, and retainers? How will the porting/aftermarket heads effect the low rpm tractibility? And lastly, GMPP produced LS7 stage 1-3 cams specifically for use with this type of head. Although the LS3/L92 heads flows VERY well, the intake outflows the exhaust by enough (apparently) to warrant a 233/276 degree @.050, 107 lsa stage 3 cam with about 42 degrees of overlap for them. Every time I ask about this cam anywhere, I get the stupid look or I get shined on. Somebody has GOT to know something about it, how it helps these heads breath (theory), and some kind of history or intended use.
Not trying to bogart the thread, but I think these questions support the OP and will clear up a LOT of the mystery.

I think you need to re-read his post, Doesn't look like this is what he was asking and what he was asking got answered pretty darn good.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the original post. Won't happen again!

As mentioned above stay tuned for the newest GM HiTech. Redline and Vengance combined to make a potent LS3 head and cam package. Nice work fellas. :D

A while back I posted a thread with stock L92 flow data. You can view it here: L92 flow data (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/483486-stock-l92-head-flow-data.html)
We have ported flow data posted on our website here: WCCH ported flow data. (http://www.proheads.com/WCCH%20L-92.html)
Our CNC program finishes the ports approximately 10cc larger than stock.

Feel free to call us with any questions.

Richard :)

We have also had excellent luck with the factory casting. Our focus is similar to the other nice LS3's available - don't go crazy racing the bench. Making power is easy, it is the trade-off that we concern ourselves with :)

There is much we need to add to our website, but we do have some basic info up at present moment Here (http://www.advancedinduction.com/AiProductsGMLS3.html)

If you have a local shop do the work, you should go with what they recommend and have experience with in most cases. LG, among others, is also one of the leaders in this arena & has had great results with the LS3 we cut. Being road racers they're well aware that trade-offs in throttle response, off idle drivability, and mid-rpm area under the curve often bring down the net end result. Louis' own C6 was used for testing a couple different top-end setups. In the end, they managed to come up with an excellent balance that not only achieved their power goals, but alleviated prior sacrifices elsewhere in the powerband. :)

This was the result without adjusting the tuning from the last head that was on the car. The probability is that inlet/manifold work & fine tuning would show some gains.

http://www.advancedinduction.com/Dyno/LouisLS3.jpg

You are fortunate to have several good choices that will surely satisfy what you are after. Pick a shop with a good reputation, lay out your goals and budget, and allow them to put together what they know works. You will end up happy :)

Take Care,

-Phil

Ok... stock LS3 to L92to LS7 parts interchangability issues? How about the titanium valves, springs, and retainers to lighten up the valvetrain for more reliable rpm potential? Would loading the bigger titanium valve in these heads induce shrouding issues? I have heard reports of L92 heads' valves breaking under only nominal loads because they are two piece designs. Are the LS3 valves, being the hollow performance pieces any more reliable from a performance perspective? Without joining the benchracing crowd, how much more flow can we induce with porting without hurting the characteristics (speed, continuity of cfm, swirl, etc.) of said flow?
Lastly, again, what is the deal with the LS7 stage3 cam and how does its design help the LS3/L92 flow balance situation? I'm aware that GM knew what they were doing in designing the LS3/L92 head. The rest of us out here in performance land need to know what they were doing in designing them in order to make educated decisions with our performance builds. Ergo, my questions.

I spoke to Richard today at WCCH. His customer service is IMPECABLE. I sent an e-mail to WCCH, and Richard replied even on President's day, and was available for an INDEFINITE amount of time when I called him Today. In retrospect, I have e-mailed TEA since 02/09, and requested to get a response from Brian Tooley, and up to this date, no response to any of my e-mails.

Without joining the benchracing crowd, how much more flow can we induce with porting without hurting the characteristics (speed, continuity of cfm, swirl, etc.) of said flow?

This is the reason why I have stock, milled heads on my car. And per my builder I have a close split cam (contrary to the experts opinions) with stock valves which is according to his theory suppose to reduce shrouding.

I am very happy with my results.

I left a voice mail at TEA yesterday, and still have not received either a return call or e-mails from 02/09 and a few thereafter, so I am loosing hope in hearing back from TEA all together.

I spoke to Richard today at WCCH. His customer service is IMPECABLE. I sent an e-mail to WCCH, and Richard replied even on President's day, and was available for an INDEFINITE amount of time when I called him Today. In retrospect, I have e-mailed TEA since 02/09, and requested to get a response from Brian Tooley, and up to this date, no response to any of my e-mails.

Now, I'm not the kind of guy so say "I told you so" but......

I told you so. :nod:

I spoke to Richard today at WCCH. His customer service is IMPECABLE. I sent an e-mail to WCCH, and Richard replied even on President's day, and was available for an INDEFINITE amount of time when I called him Today. In retrospect, I have e-mailed TEA since 02/09, and requested to get a response from Brian Tooley, and up to this date, no response to any of my e-mails.

Seems like the choice is a no brainer:confused:

This is the reason why I have stock, milled heads on my car. And per my builder I have a close split cam (contrary to the experts opinions) with stock valves which is according to his theory suppose to reduce shrouding.

I am very happy with my results.

I have heard about the shrouding issues too. The way I understand it, anything under 4.125 bore should stick with the LS3/L92 valve size. LS7 valves for anything bigger. I like the idea of using the titanium LS7 intake valves to eliminate float with a proven bulletproof valve setup. The LS7 valve also uses titanium retainers and locks too if I'm correct. Before its all over, I'll be running a minimum of 4.125 bore. So it should be all good for me.
What were your results and the differences between what you have now and a GM style wide split cam? I haven't had a chance to load the LS3 with the Stage 3 cam in my Z yet. (the other mechanic in my shop has the lift tied up with a ricer:bang:) But I would be very interested in comparing notes with you.
I'm not with the "no brainer" aftermarket heads thing either. Mostly due to the fact that I don't have unlimited funds to dump into my project..which is also my DD. The stock, or relatively so, LS3 heads flow more than well enough for anything up to a max effort drag car. I haven't milled my heads yet because of the valve clearancing issues associated with high lift cams. That and I'm preparing a blower upgrade and will actually need to lower my CR.

wcch heads rock-not because i bought a couple of sets but i have seen other cnc programs vs the wcch and lets just say..... they have tried to copy it......

(please no pm's on who it is-)

I spoke to richard a while back and i told him i was going to do some testing on some l92 head's and his one's

he was cool about it-

its just a general test with different intakes and cam's

maybe in the next month or so

he can post up the results if he wants

What were your results and the differences between what you have now and a GM style wide split cam? I haven't had a chance to load the LS3 with the Stage 3 cam in my Z yet. (the other mechanic in my shop has the lift tied up with a ricer:bang:) But I would be very interested in comparing notes with you.


We tried an "L92 specific" wide split cam and the car made less power-that cam ended up in the garbage.

My same cam in an M6 GTO made 485rwhp on a 6.0 bottom end and an L92 top end.

Shoot me a pm...

wcch heads rock-not because i bought a couple of sets but i have seen other cnc programs vs the wcch and lets just say..... they have tried to copy it......

(please no pm's on who it is-)

I spoke to richard a while back and i told him i was going to do some testing on some l92 head's and his one's

he was cool about it-

its just a general test with different intakes and cam's

maybe in the next month or so

he can post up the results if he wants

Your post is confusing. Are you saying that WCCH copied the design of others OR others copied the port work of WCCH?

We tried an "L92 specific" wide split cam and the car made less power-that cam ended up in the garbage.

My same cam in an M6 GTO made 485rwhp on a 6.0 bottom end and an L92 top end.

Shoot me a pm...

The following is an actual GMPP test with a VERY wide split "stage 3" cam in an LS7 based engine. The LS3/L92 is basically the same as the LS7 head minus the difference in int. valve size and the 15 degree as opposed to the LS7's 12 degree. It's hard to poke a stick at these numbers. With this cam, I wouldn't have expected the low rpm numbers to be as strong as they are either.
I would expect a well prepared LS3 based 7liter to do just as well, if not better. If I could get these number at my altitude N/A, I may even sell my blower and call it good. lol

Advertised Duration (I/E) 294/335
Durartion @ 0.050’ 233/276
LSA 107
Lift (w/1.7) 0.595/0.595
Lift (w/1.8) 0.630/0.630

Cylinder Head 12578449
Intake Manifold 25534394
Camshaft 88958723
www.gmperformanceparts.com
Speed Corrected Torque Corrected Power

Rpm Lbs-Ft Hp
1900 327 118.1
2000 334 127.1
2100 338 135.1
2200 338 141.7
2300 349 152.9
2400 362 165.2
2500 381 181.5
2600 405 200.3
2700 429 220.6
2800 441 235.0
2900 450 248.3
3000 458 261.5
3100 451 266.0
3200 453 275.8
3300 454 285.0
3400 455 294.6
3500 463 308.3
3600 461 316.0
3700 461 324.9
3800 466 337.4
3900 476 353.2
4000 480 365.9
4100 478 373.1
4200 481 384.8
4300 489 400.1
4400 494 413.5
4500 492 421.6
4600 494 432.8
4700 495 443.2
4800 499 455.6
4900 510 476.2
5000 524 498.7
5100 533 517.8
5200 539 534.1
5300 543 548.5
5400 543 557.8
5500 544 569.3
5600 539 574.1
5700 540 585.5
5800 540 596.0
5900 534 599.9
6000 526 601.2
6100 527 611.8
6200 522 616.1
6300 518 621.8
6400 511 622.5
6500 506 626.5
6600 507 636.5
6700 499 636.1
6800 497 643.1
6900 492 645.8
7000 484 645.6

Your post is confusing. Are you saying that WCCH copied the design of others OR others copied the port work of WCCH?

sorry if it came out that way

other way round-

i know richard and his work is very good-

his allpro's are even better:chug:

Hi, I have a 2008 Corvette LS3 MN6. I currently have Kooks 1 3/4 headers, catted 3 x 3 midpipe, Borla cat-back, and Callaway Honker CAI with a tune. The car put down 428 RWHP and 418 RWTQ SAE on a dyno jet.

When attempts were initially made to port the LS3 heads, most were only reporting around a 6 RWHP gain and even a loss in TQ in the midrange, but this was around a year ago. Recently, I have read several tuners and companies posting around 30 - 40 RWHP gains by porting the LS3 heads. Vengeance Racing and ECS posted a couple of threads with these results from TEA Stage 1 heads. Can anyone post other numbers and confirm this? If I add a cam, I want to be sure that having the heads ported will yield at least 30 - 40 RWHP and similar TQ numbers, in order to warrant the added cost of labor and porting service as well, since the initial posts about a year ago where not very promissing, and did not justify the cost, but other recent posts have me thinking and revisiting the possibility of getting my stock LS3 heads ported. I am looking for real gains, without taking into account milling the heads, and this would be used with a mild - moderate sized cam.

Within the confines of the OP; you are going to be hard pressed to get any serious increases in power versus the money you will spend on custom ported or aftermarket heads. Your LS3 heads rock straight from the box. The C5R or LS7 heads are the only better breathing stock heads you can have. And even they aren't too much better than what you have already. Again, unless you commit to all the aftermarket bolt on mods, you will not see enough of a gain with small cam and stock breathing capability for the money spent. -Especially in the RPM range you probably spend most of your driving time in.
However, if you plan on upgrading everything else fairly soon, then you might not disappoint yourself too badly with the new heads. You also have to remember that the LS3 is designed to run close to 11:1 comp with 72cc heads. Milling them is going to put you in danger of connecting a valve to a piston depending on your selected cam's lift, valve float, or if you are going to an aftermarket piston.
That said, GM pushes the performance of the LS3 to 515 flywheel with the help of thier ASA cam (which is a small cam by LS1Tech member standards). I don't see why you couldn't see those numbers or better with your setup, a cam (the 224 and MS3 or 4 seem to be popular here), and balancing your breathing capability with some small intake mods.
I seriously suggest that whoever you call, plug in thier promised power increases to the RPM range you do most of your real world driving to gauge the true value of the swap. In the end, it's your money.

Within the confines of the OP; you are going to be hard pressed to get any serious increases in power versus the money you will spend on custom ported or aftermarket heads. Your LS3 heads rock straight from the box. The C5R or LS7 heads are the only better breathing stock heads you can have. And even they aren't too much better than what you have already. Again, unless you commit to all the aftermarket bolt on mods, you will not see enough of a gain with small cam and stock breathing capability for the money spent. -Especially in the RPM range you probably spend most of your driving time in.
However, if you plan on upgrading everything else fairly soon, then you might not disappoint yourself too badly with the new heads. You also have to remember that the LS3 is designed to run close to 11:1 comp with 72cc heads. Milling them is going to put you in danger of connecting a valve to a piston depending on your selected cam's lift, valve float, or if you are going to an aftermarket piston.
That said, GM pushes the performance of the LS3 to 515 flywheel with the help of thier ASA cam (which is a small cam by LS1Tech member standards). I don't see why you couldn't see those numbers or better with your setup, a cam (the 224 and MS3 or 4 seem to be popular here), and balancing your breathing capability with some small intake mods.
I seriously suggest that whoever you call, plug in thier promised power increases to the RPM range you do most of your real world driving to gauge the true value of the swap. In the end, it's your money.

I spoke with Richard at WCCH, and I will most likely send my heads to him for CNC porting, a valve job, and REV valves. If I did a cam only set-up, I would have to upgrade the valve spring kit, maybe get some better valves, since I have read reports of LS3 valves failing, so the price difference is not that much greater to just get the heads ported and have then install aftermarket valves and springs. Besides heads and cam, I am not sure what other breathing mods I can do. When FAST comes out with their LS3 manifold, I will put that in as well and get the TB ported. I already have long tube headers with a full exhaust and a CAI. The pistons are going to remain stock, as I am not going to got into FI. What is the best way to eliminate valve float, and making sure that a valve does not hit a piston?

Milling them is going to put you in danger of connecting a valve to a piston depending on your selected cam's lift, valve float, or if you are going to an aftermarket piston.

A lot of good things to think about.

Let me clarify one thing. PTV problems occur at the top of the stroke when the valves are almost closed, so peak lift has no effect. It's related to duration and overlap. Open the intake valve too early and bang, it hits the piston. Once you mill the LS3 heads (or even simply use an .040 gasket to get a nice CR bump) duration becomes limited to mild cams unless you flycut the pistons.

I prefer NOT to flycut the pistons. The BIGGEST cam that I cam considering is a bullet custom billet cam 224/236 590/612 115 lsa. I may consider the same variation at 224/232. Would this fit WITHOUT fly cutting the pistons?

A lot of good things to think about.

Let me clarify one thing. PTV problems occur at the top of the stroke when the valves are almost closed, so peak lift has no effect. It's related to duration and overlap. Open the intake valve too early and bang, it hits the piston. Once you mill the LS3 heads (or even simply use an .040 gasket to get a nice CR bump) duration becomes limited to mild cams unless you flycut the pistons.

Oops. I stand corrected on the PTV issue. But it is an issue nonetheless.

I prefer NOT to flycut the pistons. The BIGGEST cam that I cam considering is a bullet custom billet cam 224/236 590/612 115 lsa. I may consider the same variation at 224/232. Would this fit WITHOUT fly cutting the pistons?

From what I understand, it would depend on how you install the cam. That said, whoever is working on the engine will have to check the valves for clearance. The "dab of modeling clay" test always worked for me.

Here are real results with the WCCH CNC cylinders heads;

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8339/ls3gmhtpbeforeafter.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Also note the current compression of the LS3 is not as high as GM has promoted. Richard and I have gone through a few rounds with this and have determined its closer to 10.6:1. Compression is up about .5 with these heads.

Same day install. This is in the April 2009 GMHT Magazine.

Howard

Well. Hard to argue with those numbers either. lol Whats the price on them? Is it possible to send in a set of LS3 heads for CNC porting? What would be the price on that? What cam are you using on this dyno?

I would contact Richard directly at WCCH for the pricing. Yes he can use your set of heads for the work. He is usually short on castings so that would make it easier.

Its a DS250 Dyno Dynamics dyno.

Howard

Well. Hard to argue with those numbers either. lol Whats the price on them? Is it possible to send in a set of LS3 heads for CNC porting? What would be the price on that? What cam are you using on this dyno?


Yes, I have been communicating with Richard. You can send your LS3 heads to be ported.

I would contact Richard directly at WCCH for the pricing. Yes he can use your set of heads for the work. He is usually short on castings so that would make it easier.

Its a DS250 Dyno Dynamics dyno.

Howard

Howard, those gains are hard to dispute, and NO loss of torque anywhere in the RPM range. May I ask what are the specs on this cam? I am having a hard time deciding on what cam to use with my set-up.

Nice gain on the heads. Did you have to flycut the pistons?