View Full Version : Toyota looking for Bailout!!


7998
03-03-2009, 05:02 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/03/autos/toyota_govt_loan.reut/index.htm

Wow Toyota made it a few months longer then the Big 3. They're also looking to get bailed out, I guess all them years of inferior product and bad business decisions has finally caught up with them.

ChaseSS
03-03-2009, 05:04 PM
a sign of the times.... things will get worse still before they get better

Blakbird24
03-03-2009, 05:12 PM
Epic.

I can't wait to see the wonderland of wisdom that this thread takes us too.

Months of haters ripping on domestic automakers' need for bailout money while swinging from Toyota's nutsack. No doubt they are going to have some classic excuses for this.

7998
03-03-2009, 05:27 PM
Epic.

I can't wait to see the wonderland of wisdom that this thread takes us too.

Months of haters ripping on domestic automakers' need for bailout money while swinging from Toyota's nutsack. No doubt they are going to have some classic excuses for this.

They probably wont even respond and just hope it dies soon.

WSsick
03-03-2009, 05:54 PM
edit: im an idiot & didnt read the link posted.:bang: this post was irrelavent and pretty darn retarded:) thx jamstransam

JamsTransAm
03-03-2009, 05:58 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself.


We had better not give them even 1 cent. I can't believe they have the nerve to ask for our money.

"The world's top automaker applies for a $2.1 billion loan backed by the Japanese government to keep its finance arm competitive."

7998
03-03-2009, 06:09 PM
"The world's top automaker applies for a $2.1 billion loan backed by the Japanese government to keep its finance arm competitive."


Could you imagine how much they would be begging for if they weren't already subsidized by the Japnese Goverment.

WSsick
03-03-2009, 06:35 PM
"The world's top automaker applies for a $2.1 billion loan backed by the Japanese government to keep its finance arm competitive."

lol. im an idiot for being too lazy to read the link. i think you know what i was thinking :bang: im editing my post. thanks!

Irunelevens
03-03-2009, 06:49 PM
Hasn't GM cumulatively asked for something close to $20 billion? Just food for thought. I know you want to hear, "See!! GM didn't really make any bad decisions and their products were always the best, Americans were just stupid." But that's not the truth.

7998
03-03-2009, 07:03 PM
Hasn't GM cumulatively asked for something close to $20 billion? Just food for thought. I know you want to hear, "See!! GM didn't really make any bad decisions and their products were always the best, Americans were just stupid." But that's not the truth.


GM did make "some" bad decisions, and in their segment has made some really good cars. And import buying Americans aren't stupid just mis-led and mis-informed.

Buckwheat
03-03-2009, 08:18 PM
The banks and the fed are the ones who got us into this situation. Bernakie...what a fuckin' dooschbag on TV today. These pricks are taking us down into a black hole of government waste, abuse, and scandal that will make Hitler look like a boyscout.

Blakbird24
03-03-2009, 08:51 PM
Hasn't GM cumulatively asked for something close to $20 billion? Just food for thought. I know you want to hear, "See!! GM didn't really make any bad decisions and their products were always the best, Americans were just stupid." But that's not the truth.

That's not the point at all. There's no doubt GM is worse off than Toyota. The point is that now people can't sit there and say "look at Toyota...they don't need any money". This simply points more and more towards GM's legacy costs being the issues and not the cars they've been making as so many claim. If a company like Toyota, who supposedly has built the greatest cars on earth since the day we learned the earth is round, is needing money, it's obvious that there are bigger forces at work here.

Irunelevens
03-03-2009, 09:05 PM
GM did make "some" bad decisions, and in their segment has made some really good cars. And import buying Americans aren't stupid just mis-led and mis-informed.

So every import has a domestic counterpart that's cheaper and better? I definitely wouldn't go that far.

7998
03-03-2009, 09:15 PM
So every import has a domestic counterpart that's cheaper and better? I definitely wouldn't go that far.

Short of an S-Class Merc or the likes, yes there is a Domestic counterpart comparable or better. And don't geek out and start with Italian exotics, all I have to say is ZR-1, and Ford GT.

Irunelevens
03-03-2009, 09:21 PM
Up until VERY recently, there wasn't really anything to compare with the Mazda3/Civic/Corolla. The Cavalier was a joke; very inexpensive, but also very cheap. An example that I've used before and will use again is my old '05 Frontier Crew Cab V6/6spd. I wanted a midsize/compact truck with good power and a manual transmission. The Frontier was the ONLY truck that met the criteria, and now only Toyota has come out with something comparable. And I would also argue that the Sky/Solstice realistically are only "good" competitors at best in the small sports car segment, even though the Redline and GXP go great in a straightline. If I were getting a minivan I wouldn't get anything other than an Odyssey or Quest. Now if I was looking for a 3/4 or 1 ton truck or a cheap 1/2 ton to use as a work truck, domestic all the way. Or of course if I wanted something midsized with RWD and a V8.

Irunelevens
03-03-2009, 09:23 PM
And for the record, people with enough money to blow $100k+ on a toy don't have to choose one car. If they really wanted, they could have a Ferrari, a ZR-1, and a Ford GT. But I will say that as good as the ZR-1 is for the money, there are definitely corners cut when it comes to the fine details. But that is to be expected from a car that price that does what it can do.

MeentSS02
03-03-2009, 09:27 PM
For the record, I drive a Toyota (not the Prius though ;) ), and I could care less. Everyone is in trouble right now, and I'm not surprised at all. I get to drive my Canadian import again within the next few weeks, so all is well from my perspective.

Blakbird24
03-03-2009, 09:30 PM
If I were getting a minivan I wouldn't get anything other than an Odyssey or Quest.

So if you were looking at a minivan, you wouldn't even consider one from the company that INVENTED the minivan?

That's interesting. I'm the opposite...if I needed a minivan, i'd probably have to shoot myself...but seriously, if I went looking for one, i'd go nowhere else but a chrysler lot. I sold Odysseys 8 years ago and I have to say they don't hold a candle to a chrysler minivan. That's just one thing Chrysler has right - if the only thing.

Irunelevens
03-03-2009, 09:33 PM
8 years ago means very little now... the Chrysler minivans are definitely ok, but they aren't the best IMO. I too would shoot myself, but I was tossing out a hypothetical. I would (and have) consider all options, but I've been in/driven Ford Freestars and Caravans and they feel cheap compared to the Odyssey and Quest. And Chrysler's past quality reputation is questionable. Granted VW does source their Routan minivan from Chrysler, but they change 90% of the bodypanels and almost the entire interior. For a reason.

108dragon
03-03-2009, 09:41 PM
That's not the point at all. There's no doubt GM is worse off than Toyota. The point is that now people can't sit there and say "look at Toyota...they don't need any money". This simply points more and more towards GM's legacy costs being the issues and not the cars they've been making as so many claim. If a company like Toyota, who supposedly has built the greatest cars on earth since the day we learned the earth is round, is needing money, it's obvious that there are bigger forces at work here.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but;
I agree. Also in the news; "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem." If you are out buying up foreign made goods and services, you are NOT helping OUR economy. There are bigger forces at work. But WE don't have to add to them.
Our automakers simply designed and manufactured the cheap ass cars we demanded of them. Toyota simply makes better cheap ass cars..and cheaper. Sounds stupid, but its true. We get what we ask for from our automakers just like we "get the government we deserve."
The latest Corvette is kicking ass in the "supercar" catagories. Toyota has NOTHING that can touch it. It is a testament to GM's capabilities as an automaker and the direct response to the demand of the American people. I would have given our automakers anything they wanted in financial back for the simple fact that THEY have made up a vast amount of the backbone of American economy for almost a century. I am ashamed that our government didn't help them more. This is OURS and WE have to take care of it. Or we lose it along with Crane Cams. Without our products, our banking (who for the most part completely wasted the bailout given to them) and trading system wouldn't have anything to base thier profits on... not without investments abroad.
I think the "bigger forces at work" is our non support of ourselves. I really dig LS1tech because we support each other and our sponsors. If America as a whole was like that, I don't think we would be in nearly the pickle that we are.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Irunelevens
03-03-2009, 09:45 PM
This whole situation is bending toward socialism.

MeentSS02
03-03-2009, 09:54 PM
This whole situation is bending toward socialism.

Yes, and we're all going to die on 12/12/12. Oh well...who knew that buying my truck was the beginning of the end?

PopaPork
03-04-2009, 09:55 AM
hahah I loves these posts. Everyone is hurting right now. I wouldn't be surprised if sooner or later everyone is asking for bail out money no matter what industry they are in.

Lickeyman
03-04-2009, 10:00 AM
This whole situation is bending toward socialism.

What do you think they have in Europe?

And they have consistently high unemployment rates that are HIGHER than ours.


I think the money that is in this stimulus should be going to technology and healthcare and that's it.

And since ALL car companies are feeling the heat I don't think a bailout is going to help. We are throwing money at it instead of fixing the problem.

Our whole problem as a nation is the fact that the only way many of us can make money is what.......real estate. Why is that? Simple. We no longer can make goods competitively and we are DEPENDENT on foreign oil.

There is ONE answer to our problem. It isn't religion. It isn't socialism or capatailism. And it's not arguing and fighting about government and religion It IS technology. In recent years we haven't really worried about science or math but instead business. What's that gotten us? Well our whole transportation system is entirely dependent on oil which poses a huge problem.

There are TONS of possible solutions. We just haven't INVESTED in them. Instead we buy oil. Or we buy and sell houses. Or we sue each other. etc etc etc etc etc.

Hell IF we invested in developing fusion and were successful we would NOT NEED OIL. We could simply use electrolysis and store hydrogen for transportation needs. IC engines CAN generally be converted to Hydrogen. HMMMM.....I smell a whole industry.....Hydrogen conversion. We wouldn't have a Co2 problem. We wouldn't have caustic battery chemical problem.

Or we could go solar............................................. ....yadda yadda

There are more solutions too. Biofuels etc etc.

Why don't we?

Nobody has the balls to stand up and say hey were doing it wrong. We should have had a base on the moon by now......HTF do we send men there in the 60s and NOT have a base? Why don't we have a space elavator? Why is the space program seemingly so wasteful and inefficient? Why do we pay another country for our main source of fuel?

The viscious cycle is simple to understand. In 1999 we deregulated banking and made it possible to buy private mortgages like stock. This seems safe. Investors threw money at it and banks lended more. Money was easy to get and demand for houses skyrocketed and bam you have inflation and housing bubble. Once demand for houses fell people lost jobs economy plummeted and BAM the bubble popped.

It will happen again if we let ourselves become dependent on the housing industry to make a living again.

We need to be dependent on making technologies and manufacturing goods that OTHER FREAKIN COUNTRIES BUY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Make them become dependent on us and we won't have this problem quite this bad.


Off the soapbox now.

TT632
03-04-2009, 10:40 AM
We do have high tech products other countries buy; You name it, Aircraft, Chip manufacturing equipment, mining, Test eqp, software, military goods....etc, etc. One of the biggest problems I see is foreign countries copying our goods in the case of China and software, or subsidizing their own, or protecting their markets from our products in the case of Japan and Korea.

TriShield
03-04-2009, 11:03 AM
Toyota, Facing First Loss in 59 Years, Seeks Loans From Japan

By Tetsuya Komatsu and Naoko Fujimura

March 3 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., forecasting its first loss in 59 years, is seeking loans from the Japanese government as private investors demand up to 50 percent more in interest for the company’s debt.

The company’s financial unit may ask for 200 billion yen ($2 billion) in loans, public broadcaster NHK reported today, without citing anyone. Toyota Financial Services Corp. spokesman Toshiaki Kawai said the unit is in talks with state-owned Japan Bank for International Cooperation, without confirming the amount.

The carmaker expects a net loss of 350 billion yen after vehicle sales in the U.S., traditionally Toyota’s most profitable market, plunged 31 percent last quarter. Incoming President Akio Toyoda is adding to the company’s reserves as the global recession also forces General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC to get bailouts from the U.S. government.

“Toyota should take advantage of anything it can to get through this crisis,” said Hitoshi Yamamoto, chief executive officer of Tokyo-based Fortis Asset Management Japan Co., which manages $5.5 billion in Japanese equities. “Money is not flowing in the capital markets.”

Automakers usually raise funds through bonds and loans for their financial companies to offer loans for their customers. The government aid would mostly be used to help offer loans to customers in North America, Toyota Financial’s Kawai said.

Toyota sold 80 billion yen in 10-year bonds priced to yield 2.012 percent last month. That compares with 150 billion yen of 10-year bonds sold in August 2002, priced to yield 1.337 percent.

Laying Up Cash

“Toyota is trying to lay up as much cash as it can to protect itself in a worst case scenario,” said Yasuhiro Matsumoto, a senior analyst at Shinsei Securities Co. in Tokyo. “The government loans, combined with the bond sale, show how much Toyota fears the global financial crisis.”

Japan will use some of its foreign-exchange reserves to lend to the state-owned corporation that gives financing to Japanese companies operating abroad, Japanese Finance Minister Kaoru Yosano said today.

Toyota follows other carmakers seeking government help as sales plunge worldwide. GM has received $13.4 billion in U.S. aid and is seeking more to keep its operations in its home market running through this month. France granted PSA Peugeot Citroen and Renault SA a total of 6 billion euros in five-year loans last month. In the U.K., carmakers are seeking support for their finance units from the Bank of England. Mitsubishi Motors Corp. has gotten subsidies from Japan’s Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare to help pay wages, as it cuts domestic production.

Slashing Production

Toyota, the maker of the Corolla compact, may slash production 12 percent next fiscal year, it said yesterday. Toyota’s sales in Japan plunged 32 percent last month. In the U.S., sales also dropped 32 percent in January. Worldwide vehicles sales may fall 14 percent to 55 million units in 2009, according to Nissan Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn.

In response, automakers are shutting factories and cutting jobs. Toyota plans to halve the number of contract workers in Japan to 3,000 by March 31. GM last month said it is cutting another 47,000 jobs globally, as it reported a $30.9 billion annual loss. Volkswagen AG, Europe’s largest carmaker, on Feb. 28 said it will cut all 16,500 temporary jobs globally and shuttered five factories in Germany last week.

The Toyota City, Japan-based company has 2.34 trillion yen in loans and bonds maturing this year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The company had 2.3 trillion yen in cash reserves as of Dec. 31.

The extra yield over government debt of similar maturity that investors demand to own Toyota’s 1.22 percent bond due 2011 has more than doubled to 56.75 basis points as of yesterday from September according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

Toyota fell 0.3 percent to 3,060 yen, at the close of trading in Tokyo. The shares have risen 5.3 percent this year compared with a 19 percent drop in the benchmark Nikkei 225 Stock Average.

http://images.bloomberg.com/r06/navigation/logo.gif (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aBA0r9UqrGVo&refer=home)

TriShield
03-04-2009, 11:03 AM
Honda, Mazda May Apply for Japanese Government Loans

By Makiko Kitamura and Tetsuya Komatsu

March 4 (Bloomberg) -- Honda Motor Co., suffering from a 38 percent plunge in U.S. auto sales in February, may ask to borrow money from Japan’s government to lend to U.S. car buyers.

The amount of the loans and timing of the request to the state-owned Japan Bank for International Cooperation haven’t yet been determined, spokeswoman Akemi Ando said by phone today. Mazda Motor Corp. is also considering a request for government loans, spokesman Toyota Tanaka said today.

Honda and Mazda would follow Toyota Motor Corp., Japan’s biggest carmaker, in seeking loans from the government as the global recession hammers auto demand. U.S. auto sales in February slid to the lowest rate since December 1981, led by a 53 percent plunge for General Motors Corp.

“Things look pretty grim at present,” said Edwin Merner, president of Atlantis Investment Research Corp. in Tokyo, which manages $3.1 billion. “By the end of the year, the year-on-year figures should start improving unless the world economy gets much worse.”

Among Honda’s models, only its Fit small car and Acura TSX sport sedan, posted U.S. sales gains last month. The company may request at least 10 billion yen ($102 million) from the government, the Nikkei newspaper said today, without citing sources.

Mazda

Mazda, the Japanese carmaker partially owned by Ford Motor Co., increasingly needs the funds, mainly in the U.S. and Europe, Tanaka said in a phone interview. No details have been decided regarding a request for government funding, he said.

The carmaker’s U.S. sales slid 30 percent in February to 16,401 vehicles.

Japan will use some of its foreign-exchange reserves to lend to the state-owned bank that gives financing to Japanese companies operating abroad, Japanese Finance Minister Kaoru Yosano said yesterday. The ministry may lend about $5 billion to the bank this month, he said.

Honda has 986 billion yen in bonds coming due this year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Toyota’s financial unit may ask for 200 billion yen in loans, public broadcaster NHK reported yesterday, without citing anyone.

Honda fell 3.5 percent to close at 2,205 yen on the Tokyo Stock Exchange. Mazda rose 5.1 percent to 124 yen.

http://images.bloomberg.com/r06/navigation/logo.gif (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aAE5Ndf7gEkY&refer=asia)

Lickeyman
03-04-2009, 02:13 PM
We do have high tech products other countries buy; You name it, Aircraft, Chip manufacturing equipment, mining, Test eqp, software, military goods....etc, etc. One of the biggest problems I see is foreign countries copying our goods in the case of China and software, or subsidizing their own, or protecting their markets from our products in the case of Japan and Korea.

I'm talking huge advances. One of the biggest moments in our nation was when Kennedy stood up and said we will put a man on the moon. And we did it.

Yeah foreign markets copy our goods. Always have. We do to. But if we keep down the road we're on we will be copying others more than we already do.

An economy that does not need to buy fuel from foreign nations that is built on technological advancement and manufacturing will be way way way more resilient than an economy based on selling property to each other. I mean c'mon guys where was the money coming from in that situation?

Giving auto manufactures bail out money is a bad idea. It only reinforces the problem.

Do you give your kids candy after they throw a temper tantrum? Why not?

Granted failing business and temper trantrums are different.......but negative reinforcement is the same thing.....

WSsick
03-04-2009, 02:41 PM
A few of us were hainvg lunch today & this girl who doesn't know shit about politics or whats going on at all really posed an interesting idea. "Why didnt they give every voter a million dollars instead of wasting it on the banks and cars?" While the idea is flawed, you could almost argue it would work in some aspects to help out. I mean, Americans are saving -.02% of what we earn. YES, THATS NEGATIVE. Obviously most people would go out and spend spend spend and that would help tremendously. But anyways, I just thought that was interesting; back to the point.

I won't claim to know everything about economics, politics, government, etc. but I don't think just a tax on buying Imports coupled with a tex rebate for buying Domestic could really help. I could be wrong, but I've heard from many wiser people than myself agreeing with it, in principle.

kain01
03-04-2009, 02:58 PM
It's just a loan to get a lower rate from a previous loan they already have from the government. Japan understands the importance of their manufacturing industry, and fully supports it.

kain01
03-04-2009, 03:00 PM
A few of us were hainvg lunch today & this girl who doesn't know shit about politics or whats going on at all really posed an interesting idea. "Why didnt they give every voter a million dollars instead of wasting it on the banks and cars?" While the idea is flawed, you could almost argue it would work in some aspects to help out. I mean, Americans are saving -.02% of what we earn. YES, THATS NEGATIVE. Obviously most people would go out and spend spend spend and that would help tremendously. But anyways, I just thought that was interesting; back to the point.

I won't claim to know everything about economics, politics, government, etc. but I don't think just a tax on buying Imports coupled with a tex rebate for buying Domestic could really help. I could be wrong, but I've heard from many wiser people than myself agreeing with it, in principle.

Actually that would fix things FASTER. The biggest part of our problem is we're not consuming anything, and we can't afford to pay our loans. We pay our loans off, and EVERYTHING gets better. Weird, but a whole country debt free (for at least a year) buying up a bunch of new cars could fix the auto industry AND the bank situation.

Lickeyman
03-04-2009, 03:25 PM
Actually that would fix things FASTER.

No it wouldn't. Inflation would be through the roof.

kain01
03-04-2009, 04:11 PM
Only temporarily, believe me no one would stay debt free. Besides I could use the extra money for my Camaro :)

Jakes Dad
03-04-2009, 04:31 PM
Hasn't GM cumulatively asked for something close to $20 billion? Just food for thought. I know you want to hear, "See!! GM didn't really make any bad decisions and their products were always the best, Americans were just stupid." But that's not the truth.

Do I sense A little anger there?

Perhaps you're not old enough to remember a guy named Ross who said GM's management were the dumbest folks on the face of the earth. GM solution, buy him out.

Then there was a guy named LOPEZ. Head of GM World Wide Purchasing. He changed the way GM worked with it's vendors. The he went to VW and GM went after him. Indeed GM has had problems for years!!

If the Japs had kicked our ass we wouldn't be talking about GM, right?

Get off your high horse. I've been in the auto related business for 40 years. Blame me. It's all my fault. I should have kept my GM stock when it was 50, 60, and 70 a share, but I sold when it was high and bought when it was low. What is that process called?

OK, so it's all my fault. Now what the hell do we do next?

With all the negative news we hear every day. Aren't we still better off then we were during WW-2? Why in your mind is everyone else doing things wrong? You're just a victim, right? Everything is FXXXXX up, no jobs, life sucks. Lets come here and bitch about it. :chug::chug:

It must be a full moon! You're young - pick a industry - get into it - fix it. Look in the mirror, start with yourself.

And when every ass clown here and everywhere else stands on their own, guess what happens?

:D:D JD:

Lickeyman
03-04-2009, 04:47 PM
It must be a full moon! You're young - pick a industry - get into it - fix it. Look in the mirror, start with yourself.

And when every ass clown here and everywhere else stands on their own, guess what happens?

:D:D JD:

exactly.

Handouts aren't going to fix anything if they just reinforce problems.

7998
03-04-2009, 07:15 PM
Up until VERY recently, there wasn't really anything to compare with the Mazda3/Civic/Corolla. The Cavalier was a joke; very inexpensive, but also very cheap. An example that I've used before and will use again is my old '05 Frontier Crew Cab V6/6spd. I wanted a midsize/compact truck with good power and a manual transmission. The Frontier was the ONLY truck that met the criteria, and now only Toyota has come out with something comparable. And I would also argue that the Sky/Solstice realistically are only "good" competitors at best in the small sports car segment, even though the Redline and GXP go great in a straightline. If I were getting a minivan I wouldn't get anything other than an Odyssey or Quest. Now if I was looking for a 3/4 or 1 ton truck or a cheap 1/2 ton to use as a work truck, domestic all the way. Or of course if I wanted something midsized with RWD and a V8.


In reality your just a mark for imports, plain and simple. But thats your choice and I respect that. The reality is Domestic cars have been on par for quite a while longer then you imagine. I love when you use the Cavalier example, What do you base that on? A friend who riced his out and ran the living piss out it.
There are many 'Cavs and other domestic product that have far out lasted what your narrow and inexperienced mind can fathom. Just look. To constantly spew your obvious slanted bias on a Forum that is based on General Motors products only goes to show what a troll you really are.
But that was quite evident owning a Mustang and posting on a
F-body forum.
Not to make it personal but you and 25 PISSER, are usually the first to praise the virtues of foreign cars and usually the last to have anything good to say. I don't know if you realize you come off like that to the casual observer but you do.

Irunelevens
03-04-2009, 11:17 PM
In reality your just a mark for imports, plain and simple. But thats your choice and I respect that. The reality is Domestic cars have been on par for quite a while longer then you imagine. I love when you use the Cavalier example, What do you base that on? A friend who riced his out and ran the living piss out it.
There are many 'Cavs and other domestic product that have far out lasted what your narrow and inexperienced mind can fathom. Just look. To constantly spew your obvious slanted bias on a Forum that is based on General Motors products only goes to show what a troll you really are.
But that was quite evident owning a Mustang and posting on a
F-body forum.
Not to make it personal but you and 25 PISSER, are usually the first to praise the virtues of foreign cars and usually the last to have anything good to say. I don't know if you realize you come off like that to the casual observer but you do.

Yes, I'm the biased one. You obviously have a completely open mind when it comes to cars :eyes:. Newsflash; if I drove a Corvette I would still be saying the same things I'm saying. If I drove a Viper, I would still be saying the same things I'm saying. Because from my experience, it's the truth. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Big 3 are concentrating on bringing to the public's attention how much their products have improved as of late?

slick1851
03-05-2009, 01:59 AM
You have to rember japans eco just went to shit like ours not to long ago!

WECIV
03-05-2009, 02:08 AM
Only the portion of Toyota that is based in the US should be bailed out. The portion not providing US jobs should be told to go to Hell.

W

kain01
03-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Only the portion of Toyota that is based in the US should be bailed out. The portion not providing US jobs should be told to go to Hell.

W

That's like 95% of Toyota not getting a bailout.

Blakbird24
03-05-2009, 04:24 PM
Yes, I'm the biased one. You obviously have a completely open mind when it comes to cars :eyes:. Newsflash; if I drove a Corvette I would still be saying the same things I'm saying. If I drove a Viper, I would still be saying the same things I'm saying. Because from my experience, it's the truth. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Big 3 are concentrating on bringing to the public's attention how much their products have improved as of late?

Sorry but I had to chime in here...more bullshit. You are incredibly biased, no question. That doesn't make you always wrong, of course. But don't try to play Mr. Neutral cause I can't imagine that anyone on this site that knows you is going to buy it.

The Big 3 are concentrating on bringing to the public's attention how much their products have improved as of late because they have failed to do that for the past 6 years. Domestic vehicles didn't just START improving, they have been great for years. Hell the Buick Century was the most reliable car on earth according to JD Power in 2004 already. American cars may have been questionable in the 90's, but that was last decade...we are 10-15 years beyond those cars. Time for people to wake up.

Irunelevens
03-05-2009, 05:30 PM
I'm realistic, not biased. There are some cars that I know aren't of the best quality/craftsmanship, but I still like them, ie; Corvette, F-body, Mustang. And there are some cars that I know are built great, but I wouldn't drive, ie; Civic, Corolla, etc. All of my apparent "bias" is based off my own experiences and things that I've owned/driven.

Sinner
03-05-2009, 06:01 PM
I'm realistic, not biased. There are some cars that I know aren't of the best quality/craftsmanship, but I still like them, ie; Corvette, F-body, Mustang. And there are some cars that I know are built great, but I wouldn't drive, ie; Civic, Corolla, etc. All of my apparent "bias" is based off my own experiences and things that I've owned/driven.

I owned a 2001 Civic, the interior quality was no better than my 98 F-body. Sure the gaps ect were tighter but nothing broke in my Formula, shit broke all the time in the Honda.

El es one
03-05-2009, 06:53 PM
Is not like toyota needs the money to survive.

Tainted
03-05-2009, 07:01 PM
Short of an S-Class Merc or the likes, yes there is a Domestic counterpart comparable or better. And don't geek out and start with Italian exotics, all I have to say is ZR-1, and Ford GT.

Really? Until very recently they sure as hell didnt have much...

GM did make "some" bad decisions, and in their segment has made some really good cars. And import buying Americans aren't stupid just mis-led and mis-informed.

some? A bunch rather.




This thread can go both ways. either side can argue why they are looknig for a bailout. All the companies have made some type of bad move or simply has succumb to the weak economy or better yet a combination of both.

And im not biased towards one side or another either. There some domestics I like some I hate, same with imports. I give credit where credit is due. In the past years domestic guys have really churned out some total shit quality cars with some serious issues. How bout the CTS-V rear end busting all the time and our 10 bolts and the z06's roofs flying off? I remember when toyota recalled the tundra because the CAMSHAFTS were breaking. And elt us not forget the GTR tranny :D Even the foreign guys have problems like this and I agree that people overlook that a lot.

Anyhow we test drove an 08 C6 today and we may are highly considering buying it within the next 2 months. The quality was a lot better but still a bit of room for improvement on a few things.

WECIV
03-05-2009, 07:03 PM
"That's like 95% of Toyota not getting a bailout."

Good let the Nips bail them out.

W

El es one
03-05-2009, 07:08 PM
Yeah except they dont need a bailout...they want a loan.

Unlike other companys that need loans or else they die,now thats a bailout.

7998
03-05-2009, 07:26 PM
I owned a 2001 Civic, the interior quality was no better than my 98 F-body. Sure the gaps ect were tighter but nothing broke in my Formula, shit broke all the time in the Honda.

I hear ya, I worked at a Honda dealer I seen the so called "superior quality".
.02 cent carpet and shitty paint, and yes they do break.

Sinner
03-05-2009, 07:27 PM
Anyhow we test drove an 08 C6 today and we may are highly considering buying it within the next 2 months. The quality was a lot better but still a bit of room for improvement on a few things.

It's a pretty old car built to pretty old standards in the context of GM's product revival. The GMT900's haven't been out that long but compare their world class interiors to the lambadas and the trucks look like crap. Every new model seems to put what was just released to shame.

You can't compare a Vette to a Ferrari or Porsche, they don't cost anywhere near the same or obviously it's lacking compare to them. If you compare the Vette to the Viper I think it does pretty good. You can't compare the Vette designed in 2004 to the GTR for 2008, as going back to the GM model vs GM model there's been a huge transformation in quality and esthetics.

All the Corvette needs is a cooler looking steering wheel and some better seats.

7998
03-05-2009, 07:34 PM
I'm biased,, not realistic. There are some cars that I know aren't of the best quality/craftsmanship, but I still like them, ie; Corvette, F-body, Mustang.

What could you buy in 98-02 that was better for the money?
Sure, the plastics in the F-body leave alittle to be desired. Are they Lexus quiet, Mercedes comfortable? No.... But for $25k+ you weren't finding a better bargain then. I bought a new MKIV GTI VR6 in 99, It was nice and handled, but it rattled over bumps and VW had to buy it back because it was S-box.

Irunelevens
03-05-2009, 08:51 PM
What could you buy in 98-02 that was better for the money?
Sure, the plastics in the F-body leave alittle to be desired. Are they Lexus quiet, Mercedes comfortable? No.... But for $25k+ you weren't finding a better bargain then. I bought a new MKIV GTI VR6 in 99, It was nice and handled, but it rattled over bumps and VW had to buy it back because it was S-box.

And you somehow still try to turn what I said into a comparison. I said that I like Mustangs/F-bodies/Corvettes in spite of their shortcomings. To Sinner; I hate to say it because of what it implies, but Honda/Toyota quality started leveling off/going down when they moved production to the US. I don't know how to explain that, so take it for what you will. To Tainted; be careful with your open-minded opinions, cuz you might get branded an "import fanboi." :eyes:

Tainted
03-05-2009, 09:18 PM
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

this is the internet, and not only that a fuckin online forum I couldn't possibly care any less as to what people call me :lol:




The seats in the C6 weren't to bad, but they could use a bit more padding they were a bit stiff. The steering wheel I thought wasn't bad either. I really liked the paddle shifters though, but im kind of a dork for gimmicky things like that. A few years back at the sale me and my grandpa went to I had a chance to drive a ferrari with the paddle shifters (I know nowhere enar the same) and I just thought that was just the ebst thing since sliced bread and toilet paper.

Sinner
03-05-2009, 09:34 PM
The seats in the C6 weren't to bad, but they could use a bit more padding they were a bit stiff. The steering wheel I thought wasn't bad either. I really liked the paddle shifters though, but im kind of a dork for gimmicky things like that. A few years back at the sale me and my grandpa went to I had a chance to drive a ferrari with the paddle shifters (I know nowhere enar the same) and I just thought that was just the ebst thing since sliced bread and toilet paper.

The seats needing more lat support was what I was getting at, you can get more aggressive seats in a Subaru. As for the steering wheel, well three spoke rims in the 90's looked like shit and the Corvette's steering wheel looks way too much like said rims.

Blakbird24
03-05-2009, 10:39 PM
The seats needing more lat support was what I was getting at, you can get more aggressive seats in a Subaru. As for the steering wheel, well three spoke rims in the 90's looked like shit and the Corvette's steering wheel looks way too much like said rims.

The comments about supportive seats in American cars are entertaining...and i'm not saying that your an idiot or anything for saying it...you make a valid observation.

That said, answer me this...name one Chrylser/Ford/GM vehicle with very supportive sporty seats. Bear with me on this, I do have a point to it all.

XxGarbSxX
03-05-2009, 11:01 PM
The Saturn ION Redline and Cobalt SS Supercharged had very comfortable and supportive sporty seats. They were Recaros, though do they count or did you want one made by Chrysler/Ford/GM in-house?

Sinner
03-06-2009, 07:24 AM
The Saturn ION Redline and Cobalt SS Supercharged had very comfortable and supportive sporty seats. They were Recaros, though do they count or did you want one made by Chrysler/Ford/GM in-house?

What he said. Personally I think Dodge did an awesome job with the seats in the SRT8's as well.

Tainted
03-06-2009, 09:14 AM
The comments about supportive seats in American cars are entertaining...and i'm not saying that your an idiot or anything for saying it...you make a valid observation.

That said, answer me this...name one Chrylser/Ford/GM vehicle with very supportive sporty seats. Bear with me on this, I do have a point to it all.




doesn't chrysler own the rights to the VIPER?

phirepower
03-06-2009, 10:54 AM
"I can't wait to see the wonderland of wisdom that this thread takes us too.

Months of haters ripping on domestic automakers' need for bailout money while swinging from Toyota's nutsack. No doubt they are going to have some classic excuses for this."


Does Irunelevens qualify as a "toyota nut swinger"?

hahaha great quote!

Irunelevens
03-06-2009, 11:54 AM
Actually that's a pretty horrible quote... you're supposed to do it like this:

I can't wait to see the wonderland of wisdom that this thread takes us too.

Months of haters ripping on domestic automakers' need for bailout money while swinging from Toyota's nutsack. No doubt they are going to have some classic excuses for this.
;)

TriShield
03-06-2009, 12:53 PM
To see the difference between Toyota getting a 2 billion loan and GM getting an open-ended 40 billion plus loan just ask yourself this.

When was the last time GM was profitable? When was the last time GM increased their US marketshare? When was the last time GM ranked at the top of ratings like Consumer Reports? When was the last time GM had a reputation for quality products? When was the last time GM didn't have to resort to huge rebates, 0% sales and other tactics to move cars? When was the last time GM didn't use fleet sales to pad it's overall numbers?

Toyota is a profitable and viable company that is a good bet to repay the loan. Who here would honestly believe GM can pay back what they are getting given their history?

PopaPork
03-06-2009, 02:00 PM
TriShield you're such a Import nut swinger!!!!

Maybe it's everyone else who think the big 3 can do no wrong are the nut swingers? And just becuase the past 4 or 5 years have made decent cars doesn't forgive their fuck ups in the past.

These talks are why I drive used, till the wheels fall off.

Irunelevens
03-06-2009, 03:02 PM
To see the difference between Toyota getting a 2 billion loan and GM getting an open-ended 40 billion plus loan just ask yourself this.

When was the last time GM was profitable? When was the last time GM increased their US marketshare? When was the last time GM ranked at the top of ratings like Consumer Reports? When was the last time GM had a reputation for quality products? When was the last time GM didn't have to resort to huge rebates, 0% sales and other tactics to move cars? When was the last time GM didn't use fleet sales to pad it's overall numbers?

Toyota is a profitable and viable company that is a good bet to repay the loan. Who here would honestly believe GM can pay back what they are getting given their history?

TriShield you're such a Import nut swinger!!!!

Maybe it's everyone else who think the big 3 can do no wrong are the nut swingers? And just becuase the past 4 or 5 years have made decent cars doesn't forgive their fuck ups in the past.

These talks are why I drive used, till the wheels fall off.

Two lighthouses in the fog :)

Blakbird24
03-06-2009, 05:01 PM
I can't disagree with all that was posted...but I can comment on this...

When was the last time GM ranked at the top of ratings like Consumer Reports?

Buick and Cadillac have been top 5 in JD Power's rankings since 2004. GM has had the majority of it's brands in the top 20 since then also. This is in stark contrast to brands like VW, Mercedes Benz, Subaru, and Nissan, whom all have raked in the bottom 7 (that's 30-37th out of 37 major automakers) in that time.

I don't give CR's opinion ANY value whatsoever since they are not a true non-profit organization and take some very questionable "donations".

When was the last time GM had a reputation for quality products?

...and this is the perfect follow-up to my previous comment...the info posted above probably surprises alot of people, even on this board. It shouldn't, cause it's old news by now, but it does.

GM does not have a reputation for quality, despite the fact that it does produce quality vehicles. I wonder, even if GM survives and continues to improve quality marks, will that reputation EVER change? I'm not sure it will with the public seeming to WANT imports to overshadow domestics (and not just in the car industry), and the media shoving more and more negatives about domestics and positives about imports down the public's collective throat.

The thirst for imported goods in this country is what started this disaster in motion, many decades ago...and despite all of what's happening now, in and out of the automotive world, we still see little emphasis by the government on buying american made products, and no change whatsoever in the general public's interest. The prospect of losing their houses, savings, even lives hasn't changed this. What will?

Blakbird24
03-06-2009, 05:07 PM
The Saturn ION Redline and Cobalt SS Supercharged had very comfortable and supportive sporty seats. They were Recaros, though do they count or did you want one made by Chrysler/Ford/GM in-house?

Oh and I forgot about my question to everyone. So all these people that read the thread and we've found two, maybe three vehicles that have seats that may qualify as supportive.

Well it depends on your point of view I suppose, but I don't really find the Cobalt SS seats any better than WS6 seats. They're fine to me...but if you want to compare them to the likes of Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini...and even some of the imported special trim cars (Acura Type S, Subaru STi...etc) they pale in comparison. This is true.

The reason? Look at the people in this country vs. those in Europe and Japan. More than half of our citizens couldn't FIT in those nice seats. With high bolsters, you limit the waist size of the occupant. Those nice seats would be incredibly uncomfortable for the average 250lb male that might buy one of the domestic cars that could have a seat like that. Europeans and Japanese are much smaller and thinner on average, and that's why you see better seats in european and asian versions of GM/Ford vehicles.

Sinner
03-06-2009, 06:32 PM
When was the last time GM increased their US marketshare?

Last year. While not huge, even 1 point is impressive when you consider how many companies are fighting for each point and how fierce the competition is.



The reason? Look at the people in this country vs. those in Europe and Japan. More than half of our citizens couldn't FIT in those nice seats. With high bolsters, you limit the waist size of the occupant. Those nice seats would be incredibly uncomfortable for the average 250lb male that might buy one of the domestic cars that could have a seat like that. Europeans and Japanese are much smaller and thinner on average, and that's why you see better seats in european and asian versions of GM/Ford vehicles.

True, but they could put electric or air bolsters in. I'm a big guy and I fit in the 135i's sports package seats due to their adjust ability.

7998
03-06-2009, 07:16 PM
"


Does Irunelevens qualify as a "toyota nut swinger"?

hahaha great quote!

If your waiting for an answer, Yes.

7998
03-06-2009, 07:35 PM
I can't disagree with all that was posted...but I can comment on this...



Buick and Cadillac have been top 5 in JD Power's rankings since 2004. GM has had the majority of it's brands in the top 20 since then also. This is in stark contrast to brands like VW, Mercedes Benz, Subaru, and Nissan, whom all have raked in the bottom 7 (that's 30-37th out of 37 major automakers) in that time.

I don't give CR's opinion ANY value whatsoever since they are not a true non-profit organization and take some very questionable "donations".



...and this is the perfect follow-up to my previous comment...the info posted above probably surprises alot of people, even on this board. It shouldn't, cause it's old news by now, but it does.

GM does not have a reputation for quality, despite the fact that it does produce quality vehicles. I wonder, even if GM survives and continues to improve quality marks, will that reputation EVER change? I'm not sure it will with the public seeming to WANT imports to overshadow domestics (and not just in the car industry), and the media shoving more and more negatives about domestics and positives about imports down the public's collective throat.

The thirst for imported goods in this country is what started this disaster in motion, many decades ago...and despite all of what's happening now, in and out of the automotive world, we still see little emphasis by the government on buying american made products, and no change whatsoever in the general public's interest. The prospect of losing their houses, savings, even lives hasn't changed this. What will?


Very well said and true.
While Protectionism doesn't usually work in the form of tariffs. There is many other creative ways to get people to buy American.
The quaility is there, It's just the typical nut swinger and their mis-conceived perception of quality is deep rooted in their short sighted buying decisions.
Having said that though, it does not look good for GM right now.
They may not even be able to reorganize at this point, which will be quite a shame and serve quite a blow to the economy.
Just think of all the legacy costs the goverment will incur.
And all the jobs that will lost. But thats been beat like a dead horse.

LS1LT1
03-07-2009, 04:59 AM
And just becuase the past 4 or 5 years have made decent cars doesn't forgive their fuck ups in the past.Valid point.
But based on that same logic, just because Japan has made decent cars during the last 20+ years or so I'm somehow supposed to forgive their fuck ups (and I can assure you, they had PLENTY of them) from the '50s, '60s and early '70s? :confused:
Same thing.

LS1LT1
03-07-2009, 05:14 AM
Buick and Cadillac have been top 5 in JD Power's rankings since 2004. GM has had the majority of it's brands in the top 20 since then also. This is in stark contrast to brands like VW, Mercedes Benz, Subaru, and Nissan, whom all have raked in the bottom 7 (that's 30-37th out of 37 major automakers) in that time.

I don't give CR's opinion ANY value whatsoever since they are not a true non-profit organization and take some very questionable "donations".



...and this is the perfect follow-up to my previous comment...the info posted above probably surprises alot of people, even on this board. It shouldn't, cause it's old news by now, but it does.

GM does not have a reputation for quality, despite the fact that it does produce quality vehicles. I wonder, even if GM survives and continues to improve quality marks, will that reputation EVER change? I'm not sure it will with the public seeming to WANT imports to overshadow domestics (and not just in the car industry), and the media shoving more and more negatives about domestics and positives about imports down the public's collective throat.:werd: :nod:










The thirst for imported goods in this country is what started this disaster in motion, many decades ago...and despite all of what's happening now, in and out of the automotive world, we still see little emphasis by the government on buying american made products, and no change whatsoever in the general public's interest. The prospect of losing their houses, savings, even lives hasn't changed this. What will?My thoughts exactly.
And I didn't only begin to start express those same concerns recently when things started getting really bad, I was talkin' this same stuff back in the late '80s and '90s when I saw the trend really picking up steam.
But just a side note to the statement about government not pushing towards/emphasizing domestic brand products....it is funny how so many people try to justify that there is zero downside to buying an import nameplate vehicle yet NO president/presidential candidate in history has ever been listed as or seen owning/driving anything but a domestic nameplate vehicle, at least not any with any true shot at winning. If there really was no issue or 'negative overtones' associated with buying a Toyota/Honda/BMW etc in the U.S. then why were Clinton, Bush, Obama etc respectively (and carefully) displayed/noted as driving a Mustang, a Bronco (F-150?) and Escape Hybrid prior to (and even during) their bids for the White House?

Blakbird24
03-07-2009, 11:22 AM
If there really was no issue or 'negative overtones' associated with buying a Toyota/Honda/BMW etc in the U.S. then why were Clinton, Bush, Obama etc respectively (and carefully) displayed/noted as driving a Mustang, a Bronco (F-150?) and Escape Hybrid prior to (and even during) their bids for the White House?

Well that could be just a careful political move...I wouldn't go so far as to say that they will ONLY buy American. Though I wouldn't rule it out either.

The truth remains that anyone who says that buying imported goods is the same (for this country) as buying domestic goods is simply clueless. It doesn't take an economic expert to see that.

ss1129
03-07-2009, 11:42 AM
In reality your just a mark for imports, plain and simple. But thats your choice and I respect that. The reality is Domestic cars have been on par for quite a while longer then you imagine. I love when you use the Cavalier example, What do you base that on? A friend who riced his out and ran the living piss out it.
There are many 'Cavs and other domestic product that have far out lasted what your narrow and inexperienced mind can fathom. Just look. To constantly spew your obvious slanted bias on a Forum that is based on General Motors products only goes to show what a troll you really are.
But that was quite evident owning a Mustang and posting on a
F-body forum.
Not to make it personal but you and 25 PISSER, are usually the first to praise the virtues of foreign cars and usually the last to have anything good to say. I don't know if you realize you come off like that to the casual observer but you do.


Quoted for truth....every fucking thread this guy is on he bashes GM or praises an import company. He knows, hes just being a jerkoff on purpose. I told him time and time again that there are shit tons of other forums where he would be better suited, but he would rather stay here and bash the entire basis of ls1tech and not expect shit for it. He must be like some rocketsurgeon hes so smart.


Yes, I'm the biased one. You obviously have a completely open mind when it comes to cars :eyes:. Newsflash; if I drove a Corvette I would still be saying the same things I'm saying. If I drove a Viper, I would still be saying the same things I'm saying. Because from my experience, it's the truth. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Big 3 are concentrating on bringing to the public's attention how much their products have improved as of late?


Bull shit. You may not be biased....but at the very least you are an idiot.

and insert idiotic response from....



25psi






in






3






2





1..........

kain01
03-07-2009, 01:23 PM
Valid point.
But based on that same logic, just because Japan has made decent cars during the last 20+ years or so I'm somehow supposed to forgive their fuck ups (and I can assure you, they had PLENTY of them) from the '50s, '60s and early '70s? :confused:
Same thing.

20+ years? Really? Show me any 90's model Honda or Toyota today and I will show you acres of rust on the undercarriage. I have personally had 5 GM vehicles (Cavalier/Camaro/Malibu/Blazer/Camaro) push over 250k (Have usually driven more than an hour to work one way...yay Appalachian mtns) on the odometer with nothing more than oil changes, and the occasional alternator. All of those were also showing very little signs of aging. When it comes down to it if your car is unreliable maybe you should look at your driving patterns and habits. Most cars work fine for years if properly taken care of.

As for lemons everyone makes them, don't believe me ask any one of the thousands of 4runner owners who have sludge buildup because toyota screwed up the block design on their 6, or ask the people who got the Hondas that ran up the mileage odometer fast to void your warranty quicker how they feel about those company's. Both of these are class action lawsuits that these company's are denying and delaying so that they get dropped. Yeah keep buying from these losers.

Irunelevens
03-07-2009, 01:45 PM
Quoted for truth....every fucking thread this guy is on he bashes GM or praises an import company. He knows, hes just being a jerkoff on purpose. I told him time and time again that there are shit tons of other forums where he would be better suited, but he would rather stay here and bash the entire basis of ls1tech and not expect shit for it. He must be like some rocketsurgeon hes so smart.





Bull shit. You may not be biased....but at the very least you are an idiot.

and insert idiotic response from....



25psi






in






3






2





1..........

Looks like you are very selective in the posts of mine that you read... oh well, no skin off my ass.

Fatbum
03-07-2009, 01:53 PM
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/

Fair fight?

kain01
03-07-2009, 02:05 PM
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/

Fair fight?

The biggest reasons (not the exclusive reason) is listed under North American workforce: retirees and health care costs per vehicle. That's the UAW at it's finest. They are the reason that manufacturing in the US is about to die off.

Irunelevens
03-07-2009, 05:57 PM
Doesn't the wage that GM pays each worker effectively come out to $70-$80? That's definitely part of what's killing them.

7998
03-07-2009, 06:46 PM
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/

Fair fight?

Doesn't the wage that GM pays each worker effectively come out to $70-$80? That's definitely part of what's killing them.

That article is from 2004, and the thing thats killing GM the most is the legacy costs.

kain01
03-07-2009, 07:43 PM
Doesn't the wage that GM pays each worker effectively come out to $70-$80? That's definitely part of what's killing them.

Yes that article above you actually gives you the numbers if you wanna take 2 seconds to look it over. And the retired guys and other people that are laid off still getting a pay check is covered in there too. That's your legacy cost, the people who have retired and still making almost what they were making when they were employed.

7998
03-07-2009, 08:11 PM
Yes that article above you actually gives you the numbers if you wanna take 2 seconds to look it over. And the retired guys and other people that are laid off still getting a pay check is covered in there too. That's your legacy cost, the people who have retired and still making almost what they were making when they were employed.


The job bank which is the laid off workers getting full pay has been eliminated, even though that was only a couple hundred workers. And I do believe shouldve been.
There was a time when the United States Manufacturers needed to provide these so-called benefits to workers in order to retain a viable workforce.
Lifetime healthcare, a Pension (A real retirement plan, not some worthless P.O.S 401k). What is GM and the other two supposed to do now?
I guess go bankrupt and let the American people pick up the tab?

kain01
03-07-2009, 09:04 PM
The job bank which is the laid off workers getting full pay has been eliminated, even though that was only a couple hundred workers. And I do believe shouldve been.
There was a time when the United States Manufacturers needed to provide these so-called benefits to workers in order to retain a viable workforce.
Lifetime healthcare, a Pension (A real retirement plan, not some worthless P.O.S 401k). What is GM and the other two supposed to do now?
I guess go bankrupt and let the American people pick up the tab?

Every single person that GM has laid off in the last 6 months (which that is in the thousands not hundreds) is being paid out of our salaries already. If GM does go bankrupt, everybody that gets dumped due to the reorg will be living off our taxes. The US is better off if the big 3 stay afloat. The moneys coming out of our pockets anyway, its just a question of whether it will be a few billion that they will pay back to the government eventually, or trillions to pay for the lost pensions and unemployed people.

LS1FC3
03-08-2009, 01:23 AM
I wasn't planning to buy a new toyota anyways.

XxGarbSxX
03-09-2009, 01:34 AM
That article is from 2004, and the thing thats killing GM the most is the legacy costs.
Actually, the article is from 2005. It isn't meant to show an up-to-the-second precision account of exactly how the two automakers stack up. It was posted to show the large difference in the expenses the two companies have when comparing workforces. It makes its point loud and clear.

25psi
03-09-2009, 03:57 PM
Didn't we already establish that Toyota is not looking for a bail out?

ss1129
03-09-2009, 04:19 PM
Didn't we already establish that Toyota is not looking for a bail out?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.





Is toyota your Sweet Polly Purebred??


Cause you always come to in to save her, Underdog.


"whats that? someone is talking shit about an import!!!!! Theres no need to fear......25psi is here!!!



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

7998
03-09-2009, 04:45 PM
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.





Is toyota your Sweet Polly Purebred??


Cause you always come to in to save her, Underdog.


"whats that? someone is talking shit about an import!!!!! Theres no need to fear......25psi is here!!!



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Haha so true

phirepower
03-09-2009, 04:55 PM
^Wow that is just so freaking awesome!!! People at work started staring at me as I fell from my chair in a fit of laughter ahahahahahaha

LS1LT1
03-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Didn't we already establish that Toyota is not looking for a bail out?I think that maybe you might've established that, yes.
The rest of the world sees a company that is normally so hell bent on positive image and honor that it would NEVER accept any form of bailout/loan whether it was simply a way to borrow cheaper money or not.
Typically Toyota would stand tall (much like Ford has even though they too are hurting) and have zero association whatsoever with anything resembling failure.
If they're still taking/accepting it then they probably need it to some extent.

kain01
03-09-2009, 06:17 PM
(much like Ford has even though they too are hurting)

As of Nov 2008 according to GMInsidews and CNN/Fox, GM and Chrysler had enough money to make it until March (before the 13B they each got), Ford on the other hand had enough to last until July. Ford is putting on a good face while GM and Chrysler are struggling, not to mention reorganizing so they don't have to beg as much, but they will be there asking for money. Just a matter of time.

Sadly (because there will be only one company left based in America) I believe Ford will be the only one standing tall after this. Once GM files bankruptcy they will be sold off to the Chinese corporations waiting in the wings to buy them. Chrysler has been whored out ever since they filed bankruptcy in the 80's, getting passed from Daimler, to Mercedes, to Fiat. I don't think they have a single vehicle left that's based on a chassis researched and developed in the US, where the real money comes from in automotive.

mzoomora
03-09-2009, 06:25 PM
I think that maybe you might've established that, yes.
The rest of the world sees a company that is normally so hell bent on positive image and honor that it would NEVER accept any form of bailout/loan whether it was simply a way to borrow cheaper money or not.
Typically Toyota would stand tall (much like Ford has even though they too are hurting) and have zero association whatsoever with anything resembling failure.
If they're still taking/accepting it then they probably need it to some extent.

Ford actually set up a huge line of credit and also mortgaged assets/ borrowed money in advance. Which is why they havent used any "bail out" money- yet.

25psi
03-09-2009, 06:54 PM
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.





Is toyota your Sweet Polly Purebred??


Cause you always come to in to save her, Underdog.


"whats that? someone is talking shit about an import!!!!! Theres no need to fear......25psi is here!!!



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

You should do a search before following the Anti-Toyota crowd. Kinda makes you look foolish:

http://www.autospies.com/news/Talk-of-a-Toyota-Bailout-is-Ridiculous-and-Absurd-41636/

Toyota haters are rallying at news reports that claim that Toyota is "looking for a bailout," but these stories are, at best, misleading.
At worst, they're complete and total lies.

Toyota is in an excellent financial position - especially when compared to GM and Chrysler. Toyota's net cash flow is POSITIVE, which makes them about $3 billion dollars a month more profitable than the most profitable domestic automaker.

Don't believe it? Crack a book sometime - the public financial records are quite clear. Toyota is making money, the "not-so-big three" are losing money. It's pretty simple.

So what's the deal with loan then, right? If Toyota is so well off, why are they asking for $2 billion in loans? The Japanese government is offering $5 billion worth of low interest loans to their top exporters, and Toyota isn't going to walk away from a gift low-interest loan.

Neither is Honda or Mazda, by the way.

You can call the low-interest loan a gift - but you can't call it a bailout. A "bailout" suggests that Toyota needs help to survive. They don't - not even close.

Toyota's financial situation has absolutely nothing in common with the financial situation of GM, Ford, or Chrysler. News reports that imply as much are ridiculous and absurd. Read the article, check the facts, and then join us in criticizing these news organizations for their irresponsible reporting.

http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2009/03/04/toyota-bailout-loan/


All of these headlines seek to paint Toyota as a company in trouble - a company that NEEDS money to survive…sort of like two of the three US domestic automakers. Puh-leaze. Whatever drugs these reporters are taking, they need to cut the dosage.

How about we compare the financial situation of Toyota to GM and Chrysler (companies who need money to survive) and Ford (a strong company, but still losing buckets full of cash)? Take a look at publicly available financial statements.

First, let’s look at Toyota. As of February, 2009:

Assets: 77.23 billion
Liabilities: 67.76 billion
Cash on hand: 11.47 billion
Net change in cash flow: 1.11 billion per quarter

That’s right doomsayers - Toyota improved their cash position by about 1.11 billion dollars last quarter, despite the huge drop in sales. Does that sound like a company in trouble?

How about GM? As of November, 2008:

Assets: 50.1 billion
Liabilities: 69.01 billion
Cash on hand: 15.83 billion
Net change in cash flow: -8.81 billion per quarter

WOW! Not only is GM insolvent, but they’re losing almost $3 billion in cash a month and they’ve only got $15.83 billion on hand. It’s important to note these numbers are three months old - the situation has only gotten worse since then. Guess that’s why they needed an immediate influx of cash in January to stay alive…

Since Chrysler is privately held, they’re not obligated to report these figures. Still, all the industry experts seem to agree that GM and Chrysler are in a similar situation. They NEED money - bad.

What about Ford? As of November 2008:

Assets: 162.26 billion
Liabilities: 83.29 billion
Cash on hand: 24.89 billion
Net change in cash flow: -10.39 billion

Ford is OK. Not only do they have quite a bit of cash on hand, but they also have nearly $80 billion in assets they can borrow against to come up with more cash if needed. Still, they’re burning through more than $3 billion in cash a month. That’s about $3.3 billion less than Toyota is making…per month.

Perhaps NOW people will understand why comparing the financial situation of Toyota to Ford, GM, or Chrysler is completely and totally ridiculous.

It’s kind of like comparing the finances of a broke college student living on student loans to the finances of a successful millionaire. Dumb.

:google:

7998
03-09-2009, 07:18 PM
Toyotas great, blah blah blah, GM sucks blah blah blah, GTR blah blah blah.



:google:


Ya www."Tundraheadgivers", I'll take their word for it.
Your the Joseph goebbels of toyota nut swingers.

25psi
03-09-2009, 07:24 PM
Ya www."Tundraheadgivers", I'll take their word for it.
Your the Joseph goebbels of toyota nut swingers.

Ahhh poor boo boo found out Toyota doesn't need a bailout, so he resorts to insults. It's ok, maybe next year you can put a deposit down on a Toyota Vette or a Honda Camaro :D

7998
03-09-2009, 07:25 PM
Oh and 25pis, you forgot to mention the piece you posted was an OP ED by a guy that goes by the name of Tundrahq

7998
03-09-2009, 07:29 PM
Ahhh poor boo boo found out Toyota doesn't need a bailout, so he resorts to insults. It's ok, maybe next year you can put a deposit down on a Toyota Vette or a Honda Camaro :D

Not only is toyota asking for money but so is honda.

And while were on the topic have you ever added anything positive and constructive to "LS1TECH" in the whole time you've lurked under the bridge?

Just asking

Tainted
03-09-2009, 07:34 PM
yall bicker like fuckin 13 yr old bitches. shut the hell up already

25psi
03-09-2009, 07:37 PM
Not only is toyota asking for money but so is honda.

And while were on the topic have you ever added anything positive and constructive to "LS1TECH" in the whole time you've lurked under the bridge?

Just asking

Search under my name.

25psi
03-09-2009, 07:38 PM
Oh and 25pis, you forgot to mention the piece you posted was an OP ED by a guy that goes by the name of Tundrahq

No bailout. You may continue.....


Toodles,

Tainted
03-09-2009, 07:41 PM
Here I'll end it.

Toyota seeks government loanThe world's top automaker applies for a $2.1 billion loan backed by the Japanese government to keep its finance arm competitive.


copied it right from the title of the article.


loan, not bail-out. There is a difference ya know.

7998
03-09-2009, 07:44 PM
loan, not bail-out. There is a difference ya know.

Ok fine GM,Chrysler, and toyota borrowed money from their respective Goverments.
Whatever makes ya happy.

25psi
03-09-2009, 07:59 PM
Ok fine GM,Chrysler, and toyota borrowed money from their respective Goverments.
Whatever makes ya happy.

Toyota doesn't need money to survive, that's the difference.

25psi
03-09-2009, 08:03 PM
Here I'll end it.

Toyota seeks government loanThe world's top automaker applies for a $2.1 billion loan backed by the Japanese government to keep its finance arm competitive.


copied it right from the title of the article.


loan, not bail-out. There is a difference ya know.

I wonder if the people here even bothered to read the article.

ss1129
03-09-2009, 08:05 PM
Are the looking for money to cheapen their products prices to further impact the big 3's financial decisions?


Borrowing money to keep competitive means they are hurting or are soon to be hurting in a division.....plain and simple.

So are they borrowing money to look like they are better off then they are?

25psi
03-09-2009, 08:12 PM
Are the looking for money to cheapen their products prices to further impact the big 3's financial decisions?


Borrowing money to keep competitive means they are hurting or are soon to be hurting in a division.....plain and simple.

So are they borrowing money to look like they are better off then they are?

So what's the deal with loan then, right? If Toyota is so well off, why are they asking for $2 billion in loans? The Japanese government is offering $5 billion worth of low interest loans to their top exporters, and Toyota isn't going to walk away from a gift low-interest loan.


This was taken from the article posted on the first page:

"Toyota is not in danger. It's out to get the lowest price for funding that the strength of its credit can get," said Yasuaki Iwamoto, an analyst at Okasan Securities. "On the balance sheet, it doesn't matter if the funds are private or public."

Toyota Financial Services, whose assets totaled $147 billion as of the end of September, providing car leases around the world and home loans and asset management services in Japan.

ss1129
03-09-2009, 08:17 PM
So they are getting a Japanese govt low interest loan to further damage the American auto industry when its already fucked?


Thats what I get from that. Put a little more squeeze on GM and Ford when they are hurting by offering even better deals on their cars that we cant top already.


Sweet Im off to buy a toyota.

25psi
03-09-2009, 08:25 PM
So they are getting a Japanese govt low interest loan to further damage the American auto industry when its already fucked?


Thats what I get from that. Put a little more squeeze on GM and Ford when they are hurting by offering even better deals on their cars that we cant top already.


Sweet Im off to buy a toyota.

You do understand that Toyota and GM have joint ventures together correct?

ss1129
03-09-2009, 08:40 PM
Financing isnt one of them.

Tainted
03-09-2009, 09:31 PM
So they are getting a Japanese govt low interest loan to further damage the American auto industry when its already fucked?


Thats what I get from that. Put a little more squeeze on GM and Ford when they are hurting by offering even better deals on their cars that we cant top already.


Sweet Im off to buy a toyota.

ok, say thats true.


tough shit thats business. if you can offer a "Better" product for "cheaper" then by common damn sense the better and cheaper one will get more buyers.

and i put better and cheaper in "" meaning nothing about ones quality over another. just an example

ss1129
03-09-2009, 09:36 PM
ok, say thats true.


tough shit thats business. if you can offer a "Better" product for "cheaper" then by common damn sense the better and cheaper one will get more buyers.

and i put better and cheaper in "" meaning nothing about ones quality over another. just an example

And if thats true then the Japanese Govt is purposly trying to aid Toyota in dissolving its American competition.


Imports already have it great here without the uaw and it its hassles. GM doesnt need help to be defeated. Its already in enough trouble. This seems like a bs move to me.

If our government really wanted to help the big three we would either abolish the uaw or force it on the import companies and raise taxes on their vehicles to help adjust pricing.

Tainted
03-09-2009, 11:07 PM
Ok...?

Thats not the imported car's problem. Nor is it their governments. America has to match the competition thats all there is to it. the japs do it so why cant we?

LS1LT1
03-10-2009, 12:43 AM
If our government really wanted to help the big three we would either abolish the uaw or force it on the import companies and raise taxes on their vehicles to help adjust pricing.True.
Maybe it's time to fight fire with fire. Maybe it's time to demand that Japan suspend some of their outrageous taxation/tariff policies and stop making the purchase of GM/Ford/Chrysler products in their country so damn difficult and expensive.
Chevrolet Cobalt sells for $32k in Japan?
Ok, fine, from this point forward a base Honda Civic will now sell for $32k in the U.S.
The principles of globalization and free trade aren't quite all that global or free when they actually benefit only certain parties.





the japs do it so why cant we?My point exactly. :usa:

TT632
03-10-2009, 12:56 PM
True.
Maybe it's time to fight fire with fire. Maybe it's time to demand that Japan suspend some of their outrageous taxation/tariff policies and stop making the purchase of GM/Ford/Chrysler products in their country so damn difficult and expensive.
Chevrolet Cobalt sells for $32k in Japan?
Ok, fine, from this point forward a base Honda Civic will now sell for $32k in the U.S.
The principles of globalization and free trade aren't quite all that global or free when they actually benefit only certain parties.





My point exactly. :usa:

+1 LS1LT1. This is a point the import supporters either forget to bring up or are in denial of. This is not some free open market global world we trade in. These are countries with protectionist policies that are meant to keep our goods out of there country, whether it be cars, software, rice or computers. This should have been dealt with by our governmant years ago. I am a firm believer that one sided trade relationships between countries are bad for both sides. If our currency wasn't being propped up by foreign countries relative to their own, the goods of those countries would be much more expensive than they currently are.

Additionally, we always hear our own people "Americans" say that GM hasn't responded with more fuel efficient vehicles, and that they are late to the game. Of course it falls on deaf ears when you bring up the point that GM has increased their overall CAFE #s by leaps over the last 10 years and their trucks get conistantly better mileage every year. In the mean while, Toyota and Nissan have introduced newer full size trucks that have decreased their overall truck/SUV mpg average with the later consistantly being worst in class, and that other vehicles such as the v8 4runner, FJ and others getting poor mileage.

Even on this board you will notice that GM does not get recognized for their high points and their contributions to the modern automobile industry, while the threads that knock GM and the American Automobile Industry run rampant and run on for pages. I believe the "good news is no news(flipped)" philosophy is something that is perpeptually part of our American culture when looking inward, but not applied to the same extent when looking at Foreign products. That would explain why we continually allow the importation of contaminated goods from China or we hold up the fact how great the Japanese auto industry is, and we dont apply the same formula to ours.

I'm sure if we continue on this track we will start looking like Socialist leaning California, where 95% of the vehicles on the road are Foreign, taxes are astronomical, they are economically bankrupt, and you can live there your entire life and never have to learn out language? "Do you think theres a correlation??"

PopaPork
03-10-2009, 04:55 PM
With all that, do you still think the lug nut guys at GM should be making thier redic salaries, and have better health care then most people? IF they started to level the playing field like you suggest, does that make it ok for those yahoos to still make the same salary?

ss1129
03-10-2009, 06:24 PM
With all that, do you still think the lug nut guys at GM should be making thier redic salaries, and have better health care then most people? IF they started to level the playing field like you suggest, does that make it ok for those yahoos to still make the same salary?

Its gm/ford/chryslers fault for agreeing to those terms....but its not fair that foreign companies are not held to the same standards.


If they were forced to pay the same wages/benifits you would see the price of import cars go up....either by raising production costs here, or them closing factories here and just importing more cars. But, their costs would go up forcing them to raise MSRP of their cars.....therefore dropping sales to the just as affordable or cheaper American product.

TT632
03-10-2009, 06:41 PM
With all that, do you still think the lug nut guys at GM should be making thier redic salaries, and have better health care then most people? IF they started to level the playing field like you suggest, does that make it ok for those yahoos to still make the same salary?

Agreed, can't argue with any of your points.

PopaPork
03-11-2009, 08:58 AM
Its gm/ford/chryslers fault for agreeing to those terms....but its not fair that foreign companies are not held to the same standards.


If they were forced to pay the same wages/benifits you would see the price of import cars go up....either by raising production costs here, or them closing factories here and just importing more cars. But, their costs would go up forcing them to raise MSRP of their cars.....therefore dropping sales to the just as affordable or cheaper American product.


Why should they be forced to pay redic salaries? They were smart enough and strong enough to fight off the UAW, why should they as a company be punished and have to pay. Why not get rid of the UAW and if they refuse, fire their asses. If the 3 had to pay $45 dollars instead of $78 + all the other perks, they could be making the same cars, and selling them for less, and not be in this mess. 95% pay for the rest of your life when you retire? Come on now, lets be smart about this.

Why is it everyone is willing to yell at people that don't buy American cars all the time and call them nut swingers and Anti American, but not one person looks at the people who made these desicions and give them shit. They made the bad calls in numerous aspecs but everyone is willing to forgive and say "buy american". Everyone keeps saying "America makes great cars" That maybe and probably is true, but it gets trumped that they can't run a company. I don't care how many people they employ, they made bad calls.

The same goes for the greedy fucks in the UAW. Toyota workers seem to be living ok on their salaries. Why should the big 3 workers gets all the extra fluff just because? They are greedy fucks and have helped screw over the big 3 just as much as the boys in the big office. Maybe they all should take a pay cut and chaulk it up as, "Hey we ran a good race but hey, back to reality"

ss1129
03-11-2009, 09:18 AM
Why should they be forced to pay redic salaries? They were smart enough and strong enough to fight off the UAW, why should they as a company be punished and have to pay. Why not get rid of the UAW and if they refuse, fire their asses. If 3 had to pay $45 dollars instead of $78 + all the other perks, they could be making the same cars, and selling them for less.

Basically your saying reward the dumbasses for bad calls.

Thats not what Im saying at all. Im saying why punish our companies exclusively and let foreign companies come here and have cheaper production costs then us. Im saying either force the UAW on import car companies here, or abolish the uaw outright. Either way you do it, the japanese wont have a price advantage on their products here anymore...because if you force the uaw on them....their manufacturing prices go up, or if you abolish the uaw, domestic car companies prices could come down. Plus since they wouldnt need the uaw...they could now get american labor for the same price as mexican labor and close production lines out side of America and bring them back home.:nod:

The idea situation would be to get the uaw out of the american companies and force them into the import companies...that way we could lower our prices and force international competitors to raise thier prices...or fold up and go somewhere else.

The only reason Japanese companies build here is because its cheaper than importing vehicles here. They get out of import tariffs by building here. Its not like they give a fuck about the American auto worker.

PopaPork
03-11-2009, 09:34 AM
If they didn't give a fuck about the workers they would be paying them less. They obviously care about the workers, just because they don't pay the nutzo salaries that the other 3 don't doesn't mean they don't care. And your right they build here to get out of tarrifs, smart business sence. So how about we get rid of the UAW, let the Big 3 save some cash instead of having to pay it out the nose every year and see what that does for them.

Irunelevens
03-11-2009, 12:36 PM
Thats not what Im saying at all. Im saying why punish our companies exclusively and let foreign companies come here and have cheaper production costs then us. Im saying either force the UAW on import car companies here, or abolish the uaw outright. Either way you do it, the japanese wont have a price advantage on their products here anymore...because if you force the uaw on them....their manufacturing prices go up, or if you abolish the uaw, domestic car companies prices could come down. Plus since they wouldnt need the uaw...they could now get american labor for the same price as mexican labor and close production lines out side of America and bring them back home.:nod:

The idea situation would be to get the uaw out of the american companies and force them into the import companies...that way we could lower our prices and force international competitors to raise thier prices...or fold up and go somewhere else.

The only reason Japanese companies build here is because its cheaper than importing vehicles here. They get out of import tariffs by building here. Its not like they give a fuck about the American auto worker.

HORRIBLE idea... how about we abolish the UAW and truly "even the playing field" instead of handicapping somebody on purpose? And I'd say that Honda/Toyota/Nissan/BMW/Mercedes of North America/USA care about American auto workers just as much as the Big 3 does. Which might not be a whole lot in either case.

kain01
03-11-2009, 01:24 PM
Just curious, I've seen all these posts about the cost of cars, has anyone ever built a car online? You can outfit any Chrevrolet vs. Honda/Toyota competitor, and the Chevy will come up cheaper every time. It's the dealer's that are killing GM's stuff on price, not GM.

ss1129
03-11-2009, 01:32 PM
HORRIBLE idea... how about we abolish the UAW and truly "even the playing field" instead of handicapping somebody on purpose? And I'd say that Honda/Toyota/Nissan/BMW/Mercedes of North America/USA care about American auto workers just as much as the Big 3 does. Which might not be a whole lot in either case.



How is that a horrible idea?

Helping our country sell its product is horrible? Check out the MSRP and sales percentage of American cars in Japan. They are fucking us on purpose and we bend over and take it. Then our own country fucks us with the uaw.

The amount of american jobs that would be created by factories moving back to the states would far outweigh the loss of japanese factories.

The playing field isnt level in Japan.....fuck they even have it better here than we do. Why should we help them when they are fucking us.

Its not a horrible idea at all.

Can you imagine how cheap domestic cars would be without the uaw? Your looking at about 2k per car. Now take 2k off the average American car and tack that on to the price of an import car. It would totally stimulate the American car companies which in turn would stimulate the economy and lead to tons of new American jobs and save many others from losing jobs.

PopaPork
03-11-2009, 01:50 PM
People are still not 100% convinced American cars are up to par with imports. Plain and simple. Kill the UAW let the 3 convince people that their cars up to snuff and people will come. Strong holding the other guy won't help. Just think, if GM could stop paying the high salaries, and perks those asses get, they could still sell the same amount of cars, do the same out of R&D, the same if not more of everything and make a profit.

It's their out flow of cash that is really killing them. They need to get rid of the UAW.

25psi
03-11-2009, 07:56 PM
Why should they be forced to pay redic salaries? They were smart enough and strong enough to fight off the UAW, why should they as a company be punished and have to pay. Why not get rid of the UAW and if they refuse, fire their asses. If the 3 had to pay $45 dollars instead of $78 + all the other perks, they could be making the same cars, and selling them for less, and not be in this mess. 95% pay for the rest of your life when you retire? Come on now, lets be smart about this.

Why is it everyone is willing to yell at people that don't buy American cars all the time and call them nut swingers and Anti American, but not one person looks at the people who made these desicions and give them shit. They made the bad calls in numerous aspecs but everyone is willing to forgive and say "buy american". Everyone keeps saying "America makes great cars" That maybe and probably is true, but it gets trumped that they can't run a company. I don't care how many people they employ, they made bad calls.

The same goes for the greedy fucks in the UAW. Toyota workers seem to be living ok on their salaries. Why should the big 3 workers gets all the extra fluff just because? They are greedy fucks and have helped screw over the big 3 just as much as the boys in the big office. Maybe they all should take a pay cut and chaulk it up as, "Hey we ran a good race but hey, back to reality"

:chug:

kain01
03-11-2009, 08:06 PM
I don't care how many people they employ, they made bad calls.


This is the statement that a lot of people feel for GM. But just think, if they file bankruptcy right now without a reorg, it'll cost us a lot more than they are asking for in unemployment. The best thing we can do is give the big 3 their money, but stipulate that certain things need to happen. The UAW being abolished or coming under government control would be high on that list, but regardless after they reorganize if they want to file bankruptcy so be it. I don't think people realize the domino effect that will take place if they file chapter 11. It has been mentioned on fox and cnn that chapter 11 bankruptcy isn't even an option that if they file it could be straight to the auction block with them.

TT632
03-12-2009, 01:41 AM
People are still not 100% convinced American cars are up to par with imports. Plain and simple.

Put some thought into what you are saying. This is the biggest problem I hear from Foreign car supporters. Making the "All Import statement vs. all American". On par with which imports? a Kia Sophia, an out of warantee Mitsubishi or Audi, or maybe a Camry or what American vehicle? Ford Mustang, Chevy truck or maybe a Stratus?
How about a qualification on that statement.

Realistically, I can say there are only a handful of Foreign vehicles that can fit the category as being truly trouble free. And there are plenty of American vehicles that are superior to most "Imports". I buy many vehicles every year, mostly domestics, and a few imports even. There is only one that has performed flawlesly from day one with nothing having been replaced since I bought it new in 2002. Of course its a GMC truck! Now I'm looking over the reciepts for a 80k mile Camry that I picked up for a friend since this is his preferred vehicle. 1 Radiator replaced, 1 A/C compressor replaced, Steering rack replaced, Cat replaced. And this is from a vehicle I would recomend due to a typically strong repair history, just not this one. For reqular cars I consider the Camry, Accord, Civic and Corolla to be on my safe to recomend list if you have to buy on import. Almost any of the other sub-tier Japanese and Korean vehicles don't make the list.

LS1LT1
03-12-2009, 01:49 AM
I don't think people realize the domino effect that will take place if they file chapter 11.:nono:

PopaPork
03-12-2009, 08:44 AM
Put some thought into what you are saying. This is the biggest problem I hear from Foreign car supporters. Making the "All Import statement vs. all American". On par with which imports? a Kia Sophia, an out of warantee Mitsubishi or Audi, or maybe a Camry or what American vehicle? Ford Mustang, Chevy truck or maybe a Stratus?
How about a qualification on that statement.

Realistically, I can say there are only a handful of Foreign vehicles that can fit the category as being truly trouble free. And there are plenty of American vehicles that are superior to most "Imports". I buy many vehicles every year, mostly domestics, and a few imports even. There is only one that has performed flawlesly from day one with nothing having been replaced since I bought it new in 2002. Of course its a GMC truck! Now I'm looking over the reciepts for a 80k mile Camry that I picked up for a friend since this is his preferred vehicle. 1 Radiator replaced, 1 A/C compressor replaced, Steering rack replaced, Cat replaced. And this is from a vehicle I would recomend due to a typically strong repair history, just not this one. For reqular cars I consider the Camry, Accord, Civic and Corolla to be on my safe to recomend list if you have to buy on import. Almost any of the other sub-tier Japanese and Korean vehicles don't make the list.

Hey I'm just saying it's pretty obvious that the American car buyer doesn't trust the big 3 fully, If they did everyone would be driving a big three car. I don't care which cars rank to what cars, that wasn't the point of the post. It just not all people trust them, or trust them yet.

And Kain- Fine let them reorg I think they need a HUGE reorg, but don't let them go down the same path and pump more money in to them, with the idea. "If we (the gov) keep their heads above water long enough, peole will come back and buy from them and all will be good in Oz again" Make them do A B and C and maybe even DEFGHIKLMNO before they get anymore money. It blows my mind that we will pump this money in to fix the problem, It's putting a band aid on a gun shot wound.

kain01
03-12-2009, 12:12 PM
:nono:

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how the big three going down won't affect our sales of plastic, metal, and dealerships. Do you?

TT632
03-12-2009, 01:09 PM
Hey I'm just saying it's pretty obvious that the American car buyer doesn't trust the big 3 fully, If they did everyone would be driving a big three car. I don't care which cars rank to what cars, that wasn't the point of the post. It just not all people trust them, or trust them yet.

My point being, I think you are above making general statements that all American cars are lacking in quality and all Imports are high quality vehicles. It only perpetuates the lack of trust you refer to above.

Example: When I was conducting competitor testing for a Japanese OEM, we would disseminate which vehicles were to be tested and disassembled with a subjective ride and drive before acquiring data and tearing the vehicles down. The goal was to reduce the # of vehicles tested and disassembled to minimize cost and test time. The management would view this as an initial scrub; I viewed it as a quality check on competitor vehicles. Typically, none of the sub-tier Japanese vehicles, and none of the Korean vehicles made the cut. Consistently at the top of almost all tests were Toyota, GM brands and Honda vehicles, and VW specifically for compacts. Ford and Chrysler vehicles typically were at the bottom, but still made the cut. Test were for Ride/Handling in addition to Noise, Vibration and Harshness; All good tests for vehicle quality.

This is what I am getting at; There is not an overall Import vs. domestic quality gap. There may be a quality gap between the best Import vehicles and a GM vehicle, which is debatable if you look at the new Malibu or GM's truck line. Even domestically, I would say that overall, GM vehicles are of higher quality than their Ford and Chrysler counterparts. This may be changing with the latest Fords, but I can't speak from personal experience.

TriShield
03-12-2009, 01:20 PM
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how the big three going down won't affect our sales of plastic, metal, and dealerships. Do you?

They are down, it's already happened. They are simply wasting everyone's money to make it look otherwise. The companies are already lost.

kain01
03-12-2009, 01:22 PM
They are down, it's already happened. They are simply wasting everyone's money to make it look otherwise. The companies are already lost.

No trust me you'll know when it happens. Our current unemployment rates are measly compared to what they will be. Oh and GM just told the Government to keep the 2B they were supposed to get for March.

7998
03-12-2009, 05:09 PM
They are down, it's already happened. They are simply wasting everyone's money to make it look otherwise. The companies are already lost.


So really Trishield, are you saying they should just cease to exist? I understand that may be what you want. But I'm really asking you to answer that question.

Since you state they are lost,
Should they just file chapter 7?

TT632
03-12-2009, 09:24 PM
TriShield has always been doom and gloom with respect to the downfall of the big 3. He is right to a certain extent with regards to management and legacy cost issues.
But trust me, not all Foreign automakers have their act together either, and many have survived just fine. Fiat, Nissan Hyundai. and the French automakers come to mind as an example of automotive OEMs that have pulled though difficult times. Some with the support of their governments.

Irunelevens
03-13-2009, 12:18 AM
Yeah, but Nissan pulled through their hard times in the 90s by a serious change in management (Renault). And a huge part of that change was the switch from timing belts to chains. So they recognized a problem... and changed it. The Big 3 need to change a lot of things before they can hope to be viable in the long run.

PopaPork
03-13-2009, 08:52 AM
Tri is right to a point. IF we let the big three keep running things the same old way, we will see this same thing in a couple of years. So yeah current business model, they are lost. File and be done with it it. IF they change everything from the factory floor up to the head office, and I mean really change it, change how they pay people, change their offering, change how they do busines and WHO does busness then give them the money they need to help them through this.

I think most people are OK with helping them out, but not ok with just throwing them a check and not having anything change. Their way of doing things obviously doesn't work, so why keep letting them do it? Just because they are Americas Big 3?

ss1129
03-13-2009, 09:49 AM
Didnt our government force the UAW on our automakers?

Abolish them fucks and car prices will go down...autosales will go up.....factories will come back home and jobs will go up....ect...ect.

PopaPork
03-13-2009, 11:14 AM
I'm sure they did when workers were getting fuck left and right. The problem is they're not anymore they are fuckin everyone else.

kain01
03-13-2009, 01:32 PM
And Kain- Fine let them reorg I think they need a HUGE reorg, but don't let them go down the same path and pump more money in to them, with the idea. "If we (the gov) keep their heads above water long enough, peole will come back and buy from them and all will be good in Oz again" Make them do A B and C and maybe even DEFGHIKLMNO before they get anymore money. It blows my mind that we will pump this money in to fix the problem, It's putting a band aid on a gun shot wound.

That's basically what I am saying. Nothing should be allowed to stay the same and they have made a lot of good changes already especially with the UAW on the last contract renewal (ie UAW now supplies a 401k like the rest of the world, no more pensions, so as there retirees die off, so do the last pensions in the world), but these things will take time. It's unfortunate that it may be too little too late, as GM at least, has imho surpassed the quality of at least my mother-in-laws 08 Camry with their new Malibu. And the cars they are getting ready to release (Cruze, Orlando, Camaro, LaCrosse, Volt, etc.) should be winning challenges in a lot of magazines, at worst pulling second place. The cars are great (check any JD Power long term dependability test results and you will find Buick and Cadillac in the top 10 for the last 8 years, with Chevy usually within range of Toyota) , it's the perception they have to work on.

LS1LT1
03-13-2009, 03:59 PM
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how the big three going down won't affect our sales of plastic, metal, and dealerships. Do you?No, I don't. :( It very likely would affect all of that, and more.

TT632
03-17-2009, 05:45 PM
To see the difference between Toyota getting a 2 billion loan and GM getting an open-ended 40 billion plus loan just ask yourself this.

When was the last time GM was profitable? When was the last time GM increased their US marketshare? When was the last time GM ranked at the top of ratings like Consumer Reports? When was the last time GM had a reputation for quality products? When was the last time GM didn't have to resort to huge rebates, 0% sales and other tactics to move cars? When was the last time GM didn't use fleet sales to pad it's overall numbers?

Toyota is a profitable and viable company that is a good bet to repay the loan. Who here would honestly believe GM can pay back what they are getting given their history?

TriShield, I'm really not trying to bust your balls but do some investigating before you write:confused:.

When was the last time GM ranked at the top of ratings like Consumer Reports


Last month in Consumer Reports for the Avalanche?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/top-picks/overview/top-picks-ov.htm

When was the last time GM didn't use fleet sales to pad it's overall numbers?

Last year and their sticking to it. see Autoblog?
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/19/gm-to-continue-weaning-itself-off-fleet-sales/

When was the last time GM had a reputation for quality products?

I would dig up JD Powers scores for specific GM models that have done well over the last 10 years, but you see where this is going!

If I make a statement here or anywhere for that matter I am either speaking from personal experience in the industry or I have done my research. If I do make a mistake, I admit it and move forward.