Jon5212
03-05-2009, 06:23 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/05/news/companies/GM_10K/index.htm
They are questioning whether or not they will remain a viable company. Ouch.
They are questioning whether or not they will remain a viable company. Ouch.
Automotive News, Media & Press - More grim news for GM
View Full Version : More grim news for GM
Tainted
03-05-2009, 07:39 AM
so who wants to move to holland with me?
We can sell everything we own here and buy diamonds and gold and cash it in over there.
We can sell everything we own here and buy diamonds and gold and cash it in over there.
25psi
03-05-2009, 08:05 AM
Would any of you still purchase GM, if Toyota bought them out?
Tainted
03-05-2009, 08:19 AM
I would if they offer something I want. Im not brand loyal to anyone for me its all about who offers what I want for the best price and best materials.
shoemike
03-05-2009, 08:20 AM
Would any of you still purchase GM, if Toyota bought them out?
Where are they going to get the money?
There`re sales are down too.
Just fold up GM,
we will all be forced into a Prius any ways.
Where are they going to get the money?
There`re sales are down too.
Just fold up GM,
we will all be forced into a Prius any ways.
Tainted
03-05-2009, 08:25 AM
we will only be "forced" into it if we let them. WE run the government but people just won't step up and say enough is enough. we set the standard, and we call the shots. We elect them not anyone else.
VIPRETR2
03-05-2009, 08:37 AM
Unfortunately "WE" are in the minority. Most people eat whatever the government and media spoon feeds them.
Tainted
03-05-2009, 08:52 AM
I know, and thats why people gotta stand up for what they think. I think people now-a-days might as well be born as fuckin manequins (sp????) because no one has a mind of there own anymore...it's all about jsut whatever they say is best or im gonna do whatever the rapers sing about :lol:
unit213
03-05-2009, 10:15 AM
Would any of you still purchase GM, if Toyota bought them out?
That's actually a very interesting question. I think we are getting to the point where we need at least one financially viable and stable automaker. Forget about performance cars, the world needs vehicles to operate. We'll need to find out who that company is going to be and support them.The problem is that there are commercial vehicles/products that still need to be produced to make the world go 'round.
IMO, it's inevitable that GM files chapter 11. That will spiral out of control causing every one of their suppliers to file also.
Those same suppliers provide material to the other automakers as well, which will in turn result in all OEM's falling. They are
100% intertwined. It's not as simple as scaling down and eliminating GM work for a supplier either. They have fixed assets that simply can't
be eliminated easily like labor.
That's actually a very interesting question. I think we are getting to the point where we need at least one financially viable and stable automaker. Forget about performance cars, the world needs vehicles to operate. We'll need to find out who that company is going to be and support them.The problem is that there are commercial vehicles/products that still need to be produced to make the world go 'round.
IMO, it's inevitable that GM files chapter 11. That will spiral out of control causing every one of their suppliers to file also.
Those same suppliers provide material to the other automakers as well, which will in turn result in all OEM's falling. They are
100% intertwined. It's not as simple as scaling down and eliminating GM work for a supplier either. They have fixed assets that simply can't
be eliminated easily like labor.
Jon5212
03-05-2009, 11:15 AM
^^^ Very true, and we've already handed them money that tax payers are paying for, and they file bankruptcy who knows what will happen. It is truly sad.
Jolly
03-05-2009, 11:17 AM
Its already happening. I am in Mexico this week working on picking up pieces of a company that supplied Ford. Just happens to be a major supplier to us also for power tool components. We now have to either pay them milions per month to reamin in business supplying us with parts or rush and hope we can bring it in house.
The trickle down affect is going to be enormous on a wide base of industries.
The trickle down affect is going to be enormous on a wide base of industries.
unit213
03-05-2009, 11:46 AM
I held a position at a fairly high level with my previous company. They were an Tier 1 automotive supplier to the OEM's that filed chapter 11. I've lived through a real life example and I'm fighting it daily.
wabmorgan
03-05-2009, 01:36 PM
GM said Thursday auto sales, which have plunged more than 40% in recent months, must rebound by next year if it is to survive.
This statement is what I find most troubling.... reason.... I have high doubt the economy in general will rebound within that time frame rather lone the auto industry. :(
This statement is what I find most troubling.... reason.... I have high doubt the economy in general will rebound within that time frame rather lone the auto industry. :(
TT632
03-05-2009, 02:44 PM
Any of the auto manufacturers could go down with this one! Not just GM. GM is just the biggest and we are focused on them. If the Japanese are supporting Toyota, and I'm sure the Germans will be supporting VW and BMW etc, we should be supporting our largest suppliers of automotive jobs until this thing blows over. The amount of jobs lost we will see in GM and their supplier base, if the Fed lets them go down, will launch us into something very bad.
25psi
03-05-2009, 02:58 PM
Where are they going to get the money?
There`re sales are down too.
Just fold up GM,
we will all be forced into a Prius any ways.
Yea but Toyota is a global empire. They have the money if need be.
There`re sales are down too.
Just fold up GM,
we will all be forced into a Prius any ways.
Yea but Toyota is a global empire. They have the money if need be.
wabmorgan
03-05-2009, 03:09 PM
Did you miss this thread just a few post down....
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/automotive-news-media-press/1075624-toyota-looking-bailout.html
It's their financing unit seeking the bailout... but still shows Toyota has problems.
Toyota has one common problem with GM.... they are simply too large for this economic environment.
The last thing they would be looking to do is buy out GM.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/automotive-news-media-press/1075624-toyota-looking-bailout.html
It's their financing unit seeking the bailout... but still shows Toyota has problems.
Toyota has one common problem with GM.... they are simply too large for this economic environment.
The last thing they would be looking to do is buy out GM.
25psi
03-05-2009, 03:28 PM
Did you miss this thread just a few post down....
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/automotive-news-media-press/1075624-toyota-looking-bailout.html
It's their financing unit seeking the bailout... but still shows Toyota has problems.
Toyota has one common problem with GM.... they are simply too large for this economic environment.
The last thing they would be looking to do is buy out GM.
http://www.autospies.com/news/Talk-of-a-Toyota-Bailout-is-Ridiculous-and-Absurd-41636/
Toyota haters are rallying at news reports that claim that Toyota is "looking for a bailout," but these stories are, at best, misleading.
At worst, they're complete and total lies.
Toyota is in an excellent financial position - especially when compared to GM and Chrysler. Toyota's net cash flow is POSITIVE, which makes them about $3 billion dollars a month more profitable than the most profitable domestic automaker.
Don't believe it? Crack a book sometime - the public financial records are quite clear. Toyota is making money, the "not-so-big three" are losing money. It's pretty simple.
So what's the deal with loan then, right? If Toyota is so well off, why are they asking for $2 billion in loans? The Japanese government is offering $5 billion worth of low interest loans to their top exporters, and Toyota isn't going to walk away from a gift low-interest loan.
Neither is Honda or Mazda, by the way.
You can call the low-interest loan a gift - but you can't call it a bailout. A "bailout" suggests that Toyota needs help to survive. They don't - not even close.
Toyota's financial situation has absolutely nothing in common with the financial situation of GM, Ford, or Chrysler. News reports that imply as much are ridiculous and absurd. Read the article, check the facts, and then join us in criticizing these news organizations for their irresponsible reporting.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/automotive-news-media-press/1075624-toyota-looking-bailout.html
It's their financing unit seeking the bailout... but still shows Toyota has problems.
Toyota has one common problem with GM.... they are simply too large for this economic environment.
The last thing they would be looking to do is buy out GM.
http://www.autospies.com/news/Talk-of-a-Toyota-Bailout-is-Ridiculous-and-Absurd-41636/
Toyota haters are rallying at news reports that claim that Toyota is "looking for a bailout," but these stories are, at best, misleading.
At worst, they're complete and total lies.
Toyota is in an excellent financial position - especially when compared to GM and Chrysler. Toyota's net cash flow is POSITIVE, which makes them about $3 billion dollars a month more profitable than the most profitable domestic automaker.
Don't believe it? Crack a book sometime - the public financial records are quite clear. Toyota is making money, the "not-so-big three" are losing money. It's pretty simple.
So what's the deal with loan then, right? If Toyota is so well off, why are they asking for $2 billion in loans? The Japanese government is offering $5 billion worth of low interest loans to their top exporters, and Toyota isn't going to walk away from a gift low-interest loan.
Neither is Honda or Mazda, by the way.
You can call the low-interest loan a gift - but you can't call it a bailout. A "bailout" suggests that Toyota needs help to survive. They don't - not even close.
Toyota's financial situation has absolutely nothing in common with the financial situation of GM, Ford, or Chrysler. News reports that imply as much are ridiculous and absurd. Read the article, check the facts, and then join us in criticizing these news organizations for their irresponsible reporting.
Blakbird24
03-05-2009, 03:30 PM
Yea but Toyota is a global empire. They have the money if need be.
No, they don't. GM is just too big for anyone to absorb. It's kinda like trying to move a big, old tree. You think, wow that's a huge tree, how are we ever going to do this...so you get a big ass crane (that crane would be Toyota in this particular metaphor) to pick it up...then you realize that there are roots going 40ft underground everwhere in a 50ft radius. Those roots are all of GMs assets, legacy costs, debts and subsidiaries.
I can't possibly see Toyota being interested in any of this...except maybe to cherry pick Cadillac and Chevy brands after GM goes down. But I doubt even that.
That said, IF Toyota somehow ended up "owning" GM, i'd still buy the cars as long as they stayed GM-like, and didn't become Toyota like. I don't hate Toyotas because they are Toyotas, or because they are Japanese...but because they just suck.
No, they don't. GM is just too big for anyone to absorb. It's kinda like trying to move a big, old tree. You think, wow that's a huge tree, how are we ever going to do this...so you get a big ass crane (that crane would be Toyota in this particular metaphor) to pick it up...then you realize that there are roots going 40ft underground everwhere in a 50ft radius. Those roots are all of GMs assets, legacy costs, debts and subsidiaries.
I can't possibly see Toyota being interested in any of this...except maybe to cherry pick Cadillac and Chevy brands after GM goes down. But I doubt even that.
That said, IF Toyota somehow ended up "owning" GM, i'd still buy the cars as long as they stayed GM-like, and didn't become Toyota like. I don't hate Toyotas because they are Toyotas, or because they are Japanese...but because they just suck.
WECIV
03-05-2009, 03:32 PM
If Toyota bought GM I would buy Ford.
W
W
25psi
03-05-2009, 03:35 PM
No, they don't. GM is just too big for anyone to absorb. It's kinda like trying to move a big, old tree. You think, wow that's a huge tree, how are we ever going to do this...so you get a big ass crane (that crane would be Toyota in this particular metaphor) to pick it up...then you realize that there are roots going 40ft underground everwhere in a 50ft radius. Those roots are all of GMs assets, legacy costs, debts and subsidiaries.
I can't possibly see Toyota being interested in any of this...except maybe to cherry pick Cadillac and Chevy brands after GM goes down. But I doubt even that.
That said, IF Toyota somehow ended up "owning" GM, i'd still buy the cars as long as they stayed GM-like, and didn't become Toyota like. I don't hate Toyotas because they are Toyotas, or because they are Japanese...but because they just suck.
http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2009/03/04/toyota-bailout-loan/
All of these headlines seek to paint Toyota as a company in trouble - a company that NEEDS money to survive…sort of like two of the three US domestic automakers. Puh-leaze. Whatever drugs these reporters are taking, they need to cut the dosage.
How about we compare the financial situation of Toyota to GM and Chrysler (companies who need money to survive) and Ford (a strong company, but still losing buckets full of cash)? Take a look at publicly available financial statements.
First, let’s look at Toyota. As of February, 2009:
Assets: 77.23 billion
Liabilities: 67.76 billion
Cash on hand: 11.47 billion
Net change in cash flow: 1.11 billion per quarter
That’s right doomsayers - Toyota improved their cash position by about 1.11 billion dollars last quarter, despite the huge drop in sales. Does that sound like a company in trouble?
How about GM? As of November, 2008:
Assets: 50.1 billion
Liabilities: 69.01 billion
Cash on hand: 15.83 billion
Net change in cash flow: -8.81 billion per quarter
WOW! Not only is GM insolvent, but they’re losing almost $3 billion in cash a month and they’ve only got $15.83 billion on hand. It’s important to note these numbers are three months old - the situation has only gotten worse since then. Guess that’s why they needed an immediate influx of cash in January to stay alive…
Since Chrysler is privately held, they’re not obligated to report these figures. Still, all the industry experts seem to agree that GM and Chrysler are in a similar situation. They NEED money - bad.
What about Ford? As of November 2008:
Assets: 162.26 billion
Liabilities: 83.29 billion
Cash on hand: 24.89 billion
Net change in cash flow: -10.39 billion
Ford is OK. Not only do they have quite a bit of cash on hand, but they also have nearly $80 billion in assets they can borrow against to come up with more cash if needed. Still, they’re burning through more than $3 billion in cash a month. That’s about $3.3 billion less than Toyota is making…per month.
Perhaps NOW people will understand why comparing the financial situation of Toyota to Ford, GM, or Chrysler is completely and totally ridiculous.
It’s kind of like comparing the finances of a broke college student living on student loans to the finances of a successful millionaire. Dumb.
I can't possibly see Toyota being interested in any of this...except maybe to cherry pick Cadillac and Chevy brands after GM goes down. But I doubt even that.
That said, IF Toyota somehow ended up "owning" GM, i'd still buy the cars as long as they stayed GM-like, and didn't become Toyota like. I don't hate Toyotas because they are Toyotas, or because they are Japanese...but because they just suck.
http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2009/03/04/toyota-bailout-loan/
All of these headlines seek to paint Toyota as a company in trouble - a company that NEEDS money to survive…sort of like two of the three US domestic automakers. Puh-leaze. Whatever drugs these reporters are taking, they need to cut the dosage.
How about we compare the financial situation of Toyota to GM and Chrysler (companies who need money to survive) and Ford (a strong company, but still losing buckets full of cash)? Take a look at publicly available financial statements.
First, let’s look at Toyota. As of February, 2009:
Assets: 77.23 billion
Liabilities: 67.76 billion
Cash on hand: 11.47 billion
Net change in cash flow: 1.11 billion per quarter
That’s right doomsayers - Toyota improved their cash position by about 1.11 billion dollars last quarter, despite the huge drop in sales. Does that sound like a company in trouble?
How about GM? As of November, 2008:
Assets: 50.1 billion
Liabilities: 69.01 billion
Cash on hand: 15.83 billion
Net change in cash flow: -8.81 billion per quarter
WOW! Not only is GM insolvent, but they’re losing almost $3 billion in cash a month and they’ve only got $15.83 billion on hand. It’s important to note these numbers are three months old - the situation has only gotten worse since then. Guess that’s why they needed an immediate influx of cash in January to stay alive…
Since Chrysler is privately held, they’re not obligated to report these figures. Still, all the industry experts seem to agree that GM and Chrysler are in a similar situation. They NEED money - bad.
What about Ford? As of November 2008:
Assets: 162.26 billion
Liabilities: 83.29 billion
Cash on hand: 24.89 billion
Net change in cash flow: -10.39 billion
Ford is OK. Not only do they have quite a bit of cash on hand, but they also have nearly $80 billion in assets they can borrow against to come up with more cash if needed. Still, they’re burning through more than $3 billion in cash a month. That’s about $3.3 billion less than Toyota is making…per month.
Perhaps NOW people will understand why comparing the financial situation of Toyota to Ford, GM, or Chrysler is completely and totally ridiculous.
It’s kind of like comparing the finances of a broke college student living on student loans to the finances of a successful millionaire. Dumb.
LS1FC3
03-05-2009, 03:38 PM
Who didn't see this coming? They were $60B in the hole as of last September and have been losing money ever since.
wabmorgan
03-05-2009, 03:40 PM
http://www.autospies.com/news/Talk-of-a-Toyota-Bailout-is-Ridiculous-and-Absurd-41636/
Toyota is in an excellent financial position - especially when compared to GM and Chrysler. Toyota's net cash flow is POSITIVE, which makes them about $3 billion dollars a month more profitable than the most profitable domestic automaker.
OK Toyota is making money... but still the last thing they would want to do is buy GM.
I hate to say it.... but GM is currently shedding more money than that or thereabouts. :(
Toyota is in an excellent financial position - especially when compared to GM and Chrysler. Toyota's net cash flow is POSITIVE, which makes them about $3 billion dollars a month more profitable than the most profitable domestic automaker.
OK Toyota is making money... but still the last thing they would want to do is buy GM.
I hate to say it.... but GM is currently shedding more money than that or thereabouts. :(
25psi
03-05-2009, 03:45 PM
OK Toyota is making money... but still the last thing they would want to do is buy GM.
I hate to say it.... but GM is currently shedding more money than that or thereabouts. :(
Toyota and GM already share joint ventures together and have in the past. I'm willing to bet that some talks are already in the works for some major proposals.
I hate to say it.... but GM is currently shedding more money than that or thereabouts. :(
Toyota and GM already share joint ventures together and have in the past. I'm willing to bet that some talks are already in the works for some major proposals.
wabmorgan
03-05-2009, 03:56 PM
That one I can agree with you on.... hopefully it will help both.
7998
03-05-2009, 04:13 PM
If Toyota bought GM I would buy Ford.
W
:werd:
W
:werd:
TORK?
03-05-2009, 06:01 PM
There's a catch 22 in producing automobiles.
Every year we as consumers want cars that are built better and last longer and the companies have been responding. This means, though, we don't need as many new cars every year since the ones we have are built to last. All the while, the manufacturers have increasing bottom lines to meet to keep up with costs and need to sell more and more cars.
I think the auto manufacturers have just gotten too large. Buying cars isn't like buying shoes. Its hard to find a new car under $20,000 nowadays, and the majority of people aren't prepared to slap down that type of money every 2-3 years. Hell, even minivans are over $30,000 new.
Every year we as consumers want cars that are built better and last longer and the companies have been responding. This means, though, we don't need as many new cars every year since the ones we have are built to last. All the while, the manufacturers have increasing bottom lines to meet to keep up with costs and need to sell more and more cars.
I think the auto manufacturers have just gotten too large. Buying cars isn't like buying shoes. Its hard to find a new car under $20,000 nowadays, and the majority of people aren't prepared to slap down that type of money every 2-3 years. Hell, even minivans are over $30,000 new.