Help Me Decide 402-416-427-bigger?
03-29-2009, 08:50 AM
#1
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Help Me Decide 402-416-427-bigger? My TBSS (H/C + bolt-on), just let go. We ran it with a cam really advanced it ran 12.39 @ 107, after retarding the cam ~5 deg, we were able to run 4-5 deg more timing, the thing WOKE UP. Unfortunately we never got to validate my butt dyno....I raced my own, 335i, and killed it from a dig, from a 60 kick, giving him the hit, I came around him and put 3-4 cars to 120-130. So I believe the H/C set up would have run 12.1x @ 110-112.
So now that we have to get into the motor, I'm wanting to do a larger CI...for cost we are thinking 402 using my block, however, doing a LS3 based shortblock is not out of the question either (like 416 or something)...
Ideally, our goal would be to trap 120. I can re-use my heads (AI CNC 243's) or I can do TFS, or CNC LS3...I don't want to go stupid big on the cam, I'm thinking high 23x's/low 24x's would be max...my stall will likely end up at 4100rpm. The intake is the other issue, I can port the truck intake, do a FAST, or carb style...if I do LS3 I could do FAST 102...
We are thinking I need AT LEAST 525awhp (its AWD) to have a shot at 120mph...
What's the best we can expect NA power/ET/mph? What combo will that be with?
Thanks to anyone that provides input.
Brad
So now that we have to get into the motor, I'm wanting to do a larger CI...for cost we are thinking 402 using my block, however, doing a LS3 based shortblock is not out of the question either (like 416 or something)...
Ideally, our goal would be to trap 120. I can re-use my heads (AI CNC 243's) or I can do TFS, or CNC LS3...I don't want to go stupid big on the cam, I'm thinking high 23x's/low 24x's would be max...my stall will likely end up at 4100rpm. The intake is the other issue, I can port the truck intake, do a FAST, or carb style...if I do LS3 I could do FAST 102...
We are thinking I need AT LEAST 525awhp (its AWD) to have a shot at 120mph...
What's the best we can expect NA power/ET/mph? What combo will that be with?
Thanks to anyone that provides input.
Brad
03-29-2009, 09:01 AM
#2
Whats your budget?
We've got a few big cube long blocks that would get you where you want to be.
We have a 457 and 460(can be sprayed up to a 200 shot), both are 750 hp 9 second potential engines in a 3300 lb car. Your TBSS is heavier of course so you arent going to be running 9's but I would go bigger than smaller.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...ong-block.html
We've got a few big cube long blocks that would get you where you want to be.
We have a 457 and 460(can be sprayed up to a 200 shot), both are 750 hp 9 second potential engines in a 3300 lb car. Your TBSS is heavier of course so you arent going to be running 9's but I would go bigger than smaller.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...ong-block.html
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 03-30-2009 at 11:33 AM.
03-30-2009, 07:57 PM
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Give me some set up suggestions...What bore/stroke should I use to maximize the AUC power I'll need to get my heavy pig moving? What heads/intake combo will work well with the shortblock to create gobs of torque, yet still allow it to breath up top? Then cam size...This SUV gets DRIVEN DAILY...before with my H/C set up it had super manners, and was VERY dependable...I want that to still be the case with this motor...the cubes should swallow the cam and allow me a little more freedom to go bigger and a little more aggressive...
Here is a video of the H/C set up...first with cutout closed, then rev, then cutout open, then rev.
http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q...t=102_5596.flv
Here is a video of the H/C set up...first with cutout closed, then rev, then cutout open, then rev.
http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q...t=102_5596.flv
03-30-2009, 08:08 PM
#6
Its a budget thing. Our 460 long block will do the job as well as the 457 but is $16750 and $15995. A 427 will work nicely, and again its all about budget as top what top end you go with. L92 heads are about $1875 and the short is about $5589.
Or you go with TFS 235's top and a ported FAST92 combo.
Or you go with TFS 235's top and a ported FAST92 combo.
03-30-2009, 09:59 PM
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Its a budget thing. Our 460 long block will do the job as well as the 457 but is $16750 and $15995. A 427 will work nicely, and again its all about budget as top what top end you go with. L92 heads are about $1875 and the short is about $5589.
Or you go with TFS 235's top and a ported FAST92 combo.
Or you go with TFS 235's top and a ported FAST92 combo.
If I were to spend $15K, I'd just go ahead and do a FI set up...it would be a little more DD friendly, and I wouldn't have to be as aggressive with the drivetrain.
Who out there is running a similar set up...LS3 417, high 23X/mid 24X 110 LSA HR, either CNC LS3 or TFS 225/235's and nice intake, running mid-11 CR. What kind of hp/tq are you making and what kind of ET/MPH you running?
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03-30-2009, 10:41 PM
#8
Like I said, its gonna be a driver, so for the $$ I'd probably stick with a LS3 based 417 which can be had for $4300-$4900, then top with either CNC'd LS3 heads $2K, or TFS 225/235 $2350, and either a ported FAST 92 or LSXR intake.
If I were to spend $15K, I'd just go ahead and do a FI set up...it would be a little more DD friendly, and I wouldn't have to be as aggressive with the drivetrain.
Who out there is running a similar set up...LS3 417, high 23X/mid 24X 110 LSA HR, either CNC LS3 or TFS 225/235's and nice intake, running mid-11 CR. What kind of hp/tq are you making and what kind of ET/MPH you running?
If I were to spend $15K, I'd just go ahead and do a FI set up...it would be a little more DD friendly, and I wouldn't have to be as aggressive with the drivetrain.
Who out there is running a similar set up...LS3 417, high 23X/mid 24X 110 LSA HR, either CNC LS3 or TFS 225/235's and nice intake, running mid-11 CR. What kind of hp/tq are you making and what kind of ET/MPH you running?
That $4900 416 (ours is $5574) is just the short. Add in heads and your at $7250 with just heads. What about gaskets and heads bolts or studs and rockers and pushrods and lifters and a timing set and oil pump and intake and TB.
Your at 10k in a hurry to finish that 416 and its no where near the same level of tq and hp.
If you add in your FI after that you'll see how that 15k looks. Don't forget the meth kit an fuel system and boost controller and blow off valves and sdce 8 rib kit. Whats that another 6-8k by the time all is said and done with big intercooler and intallation extras ?
SO for another $600 more you could have had about 100 more horses with the 457 or 460 N/a and been done with it.
That's why I asked what your budget is? what are you looking to spend.
Just trying to help. I have a 4050 lb race weight car so I have experience in this area.
03-31-2009, 12:44 AM
#9
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We've been doing LS3 blocks at 4.100" bore with CNC LS7 heads...
near 600 rwhp combo without any exotic parts and can be built for approx $8000 complete intake to shortblock.
near 600 rwhp combo without any exotic parts and can be built for approx $8000 complete intake to shortblock.
03-31-2009, 06:33 AM
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LOL, big cubes can be super street friendly
That $4900 416 (ours is $5574) is just the short. Add in heads and your at $7250 with just heads. What about gaskets and heads bolts or studs and rockers and pushrods and lifters and a timing set and oil pump and intake and TB.
Your at 10k in a hurry to finish that 416 and its no where near the same level of tq and hp.
If you add in your FI after that you'll see how that 15k looks. Don't forget the meth kit an fuel system and boost controller and blow off valves and sdce 8 rib kit. Whats that another 6-8k by the time all is said and done with big intercooler and intallation extras ?
SO for another $600 more you could have had about 100 more horses with the 457 or 460 N/a and been done with it.
That's why I asked what your budget is? what are you looking to spend.
Just trying to help. I have a 4050 lb race weight car so I have experience in this area.
That $4900 416 (ours is $5574) is just the short. Add in heads and your at $7250 with just heads. What about gaskets and heads bolts or studs and rockers and pushrods and lifters and a timing set and oil pump and intake and TB.
Your at 10k in a hurry to finish that 416 and its no where near the same level of tq and hp.
If you add in your FI after that you'll see how that 15k looks. Don't forget the meth kit an fuel system and boost controller and blow off valves and sdce 8 rib kit. Whats that another 6-8k by the time all is said and done with big intercooler and intallation extras ?
SO for another $600 more you could have had about 100 more horses with the 457 or 460 N/a and been done with it.
That's why I asked what your budget is? what are you looking to spend.
Just trying to help. I have a 4050 lb race weight car so I have experience in this area.
I realize $4500 is the shortblock and another $2500 for heads, then another $1K for intake...I already have some of the other ancillary parts you mentioned, and we will reuse some of my parts like my ported TB.
I'm keeping to a $10K budget on this...unfortunately, that's most of my mod budget for our 2010 RS/SS.
03-31-2009, 09:48 AM
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I would go with the TF 235 on a 402 - 427 engine reason being they make good hp and good TQ Over most of the rpm range. TBSS are heavy so the longer tq curve should really help move that thing
03-31-2009, 07:51 PM
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I have a LS2 402 and love it. However, if I were to do it again I would at minimum go to a bigger bore block like the LS3. They really seem to respond well to mods. Like mentioned above, you need to take in consideration all of the small parts and supporting hardware for a strong, reliable setup.
03-31-2009, 08:06 PM
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I have a LS2 402 and love it. However, if I were to do it again I would at minimum go to a bigger bore block like the LS3. They really seem to respond well to mods. Like mentioned above, you need to take in consideration all of the small parts and supporting hardware for a strong, reliable setup.
04-05-2009, 09:36 AM
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I have an LS3 416 with TFS 235s and a 236/238 cam I just put in my A4 GTO. With 100 miles on the motor still breaking in it put down 502/492 through a 2.5" catback. I'm going back in a week or so to redyno with electric cutouts and about 2000 miles on the motor with synthetic oil.
With that said, as it dynoed I ran 10.98@125.80 in a 3630 pound raceweight GTO.
With that said, as it dynoed I ran 10.98@125.80 in a 3630 pound raceweight GTO.
04-05-2009, 01:48 PM
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im going back and forth between a 402 and a 416. shortblock wise there is only a $1k difference but you get the extra cubes and plenty of room for future bigger better builds. So im leaning towards the 416, i am on a budget but i will pay a little more now then having to pay again later down the road. looking at a AFR 225's and a 230/249 on a 115 LSA cam for my ride, should be daily drivable and a blast on the track.
04-05-2009, 04:36 PM
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I did some simple calculations...estimations I guess, and it looks like I will be needing to be in the neighborhood of 650 flywheel HP to trap in the 120 mph range.
Million Dollar Question...
Which short block will allow me to get there (to around 650 fwhp), withstand a hit with a 150 shot, be dependable enough to drive daily, and for the least money? Money saved on the short block can be put towards the power parts (H/C/I).
09-28-2009, 02:30 AM
#20
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my vote is 416 with etp 240's fast lsxr intake and a custom cam and you should make your goal. this set up could handle the spray..keep in mind short term gain is a long time loss..try to stick to your budget but dont cut corners where it counts like rotating assembly..good luck with build hope this helps you..