Cadillac CTS-V - The White House FIRED GM'S CEO.

For lack of better words, We The People Of The United States, fired your ass!
Here's the link.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/gm_wagoner

I guess I would have quit too, if I was only making $1/year. The unions screwed the american motor companies.

I guess I would have quit too, if I was only making $1/year. The unions screwed the american motor companies.

unions dint ruin the big 3 jackass... a shitty economy and 4$ a gallon gas did...

of course its easy for the uneducated public to blame the unions for the downfall in detroit by providing securities and health care to retirees case in point: "legacy costs"...

yeah the unions have there issues but the good they provide far out weigh the bad... all non union people should thank the unions for setting the pay scale as high as it is, for if there wasnt a union wage scale to base the "scab hourly rate" people would be makin farless than they are now...

i assume you live in a "right to work, FOR LESS" state......

unions dint ruin the big 3 jackass... a shitty economy and 4$ a gallon gas did...

of course its easy for the uneducated public to blame the unions for the downfall in detroit by providing securities and health care to retirees case in point: "legacy costs"...

yeah the unions have there issues but the good they provide far out weigh the bad... all non union people should thank the unions for setting the pay scale as high as it is, for if there wasnt a union wage scale to base the "scab hourly rate" people would be makin farless than they are now...

i assume you live in a "right to work, FOR LESS" state......

It's different if only the domestic auto makers have to pay these rates and benefits and then try to compete with the foreign automakers. It's all supply and demand, yes they make more money, thats why the car costs more. There was a great article in Motor Trend (yes I'm as surprised as you) saying that Ford still sold 2x the amount of F-150's than Toyota sold Prius'. Doesn't seem to smart to me to give up those numbers even with the 4 bucks a gallon.

unions dint ruin the big 3 jackass... a shitty economy and 4$ a gallon gas did...

of course its easy for the uneducated public to blame the unions for the downfall in detroit by providing securities and health care to retirees case in point: "legacy costs"...

yeah the unions have there issues but the good they provide far out weigh the bad... all non union people should thank the unions for setting the pay scale as high as it is, for if there wasnt a union wage scale to base the "scab hourly rate" people would be makin farless than they are now...

i assume you live in a "right to work, FOR LESS" state......


The unions are one of the biggest problems the big 3 have faced. If thee ecomony and gas price was to blame, the Japanese automakers wouldn't be gaining ground either. The problem is lack of appeal/quality and legacy costs.

We should thank them for the extremely high amounts that people are getting paid. :eyes: After all, that's what keeps China and Japan in business, right?

For lack of better words, We The People Of The United States, fired your ass! ..."We The People Of The United States ..." bull shit! It was our socialist President and his pointy-head group of leftists who've never made an honest buck in their lives that ousted him.

Mr. Wagoner was a very smart, very dedicated hard-working guy. He was an outstanding leader of some very smart people.

Mr. Obama wants to control all private enterprise, what their employees are paid, what they produce, and what they charge for their products. The arrogance in Washington DC is beyond incredible.

"We The People Of The United States ..." bull shit! It was our socialist President and his pointy-head group of leftists who've never made an honest buck in their lives that ousted him.

Mr. Wagoner was a very smart, very dedicated hard-working guy. He was an outstanding leader of some very smart people.

Mr. Obama wants to control all private enterprise, what their employees are paid, what they produce, and what they charge for their products. The arrogance in Washington DC is beyond incredible.

I agree totally. If this doesn't scream dictator I don't know what does.

Unions may have been the biggest problem they are also the easiest target. With only about 10% the cost of a car these days being labor, when it comes to GM's problems they have to look elsewhere. The politicans have said before that the unions have made more strides than the company in the last almost decade. So I don't look for anything more from them except restructuring of labor's top. GM for gone their February loan payout and will only need the 60 days of short term aid until investment in the economy starts again. Obama is not helping by pinching both ends by implying taxes on the very people that do the hiring, the most wealthy. The least wealthy do not do the hiring needed to turn around our economy.

The financials will continue to respond as they have with the worst Dow Jones one month average since 1933 after he took office. There is no incentive to invest which eventually creates jobs.

From now GM will be known as Government Motors. :)

unions dint ruin the big 3 jackass... a shitty economy and 4$ a gallon gas did...




......With a large involvement in the upcoming mandats by feds and EPA standards. The gov't kills their business, then takes them over. Nice communist country we live in now.

The unions are one of the biggest problems the big 3 have faced. If thee ecomony and gas price was to blame, the Japanese automakers wouldn't be gaining ground either. The problem is lack of appeal/quality and legacy costs.

We should thank them for the extremely high amounts that people are getting paid. :eyes: After all, that's what keeps China and Japan in business, right?

actually honda and toyota have came forward and sed they are "enduring grave times" as well.... but youd have to read past the front pages of your jewish owned newspapers to read something like that.... honda has lowered there forecasted earning for 09' 3 times....

and as for gm's quality... take a peek at jd power latley? gm leads quite a few segments as i recall... the gm of the 80's and early 90's everyone loved to hate is no more im sorry... and now that the jobs bank (which was actually a really good idea intended for model changes and temporary plant closures, that a handfull of skilled trades misused and took advantage of and ruined for everyone else) is gone the public shouldnt have anything else to dwell on and complain about...


the problem is americans think its cool to go out and buy jap autos so they have somehtign to talk about to all there friends on how classy they think they are by sending money over to japan...

its your typical small town whtie girl brings home a black guy to meet mom and dad to be different and get some attention..... and it makes me sick:barf:

actually honda and toyota have came forward and sed they are "enduring grave times" as well.... but youd have to read past the front pages of your jewish owned newspapers to read something like that.... honda has lowered there forecasted earning for 09' 3 times....

and as for gm's quality... take a peek at jd power latley? gm leads quite a few segments as i recall... the gm of the 80's and early 90's everyone loved to hate is no more im sorry... and now that the jobs bank (which was actually a really good idea intended for model changes and temporary plant closures, that a handfull of skilled trades misused and took advantage of and ruined for everyone else) is gone the public shouldnt have anything else to dwell on and complain about...


the problem is americans think its cool to go out and buy jap autos so they have somehtign to talk about to all there friends on how classy they think they are by sending money over to japan...

its your typical small town whtie girl brings home a black guy to meet mom and dad to be different and get some attention..... and it makes me sick:barf:

Well no shit. The whole world is in the shitter, but Japanese buyers aren't losing confidence as fast as Domestic consumers.

Yeah appeal and quality are up now, but everyone knows that's too little too late.

Doesn't change the fact that GM (and the other 2) made bland, boring, undependable cars for so long at too high of a price. You can sell bland boring shit all day long if it's cheap enough. However, that isn't the easiest thing to pull off with the support:eyes: of the unions.

I think i would rather see this tough approach on the banks instead of the car makers

actually honda and toyota have came forward and sed they are "enduring grave times" as well.... but youd have to read past the front pages of your jewish owned newspapers to read something like that.... honda has lowered there forecasted earning for 09' 3 times....

and as for gm's quality... take a peek at jd power latley? gm leads quite a few segments as i recall... the gm of the 80's and early 90's everyone loved to hate is no more im sorry... and now that the jobs bank (which was actually a really good idea intended for model changes and temporary plant closures, that a handfull of skilled trades misused and took advantage of and ruined for everyone else) is gone the public shouldnt have anything else to dwell on and complain about...


the problem is americans think its cool to go out and buy jap autos so they have somehtign to talk about to all there friends on how classy they think they are by sending money over to japan...

its your typical small town whtie girl brings home a black guy to meet mom and dad to be different and get some attention..... and it makes me sick:barf:

So "jewish owned newspapers" are biased and unacceptable but JD Power is cool, right? Just checking.

People ought to buy the car that fits their needs best no matter where that car is built or where that company's corporate headquarters is located. Blind allegiance to buying American means that as long as the car companies know you'll do that they have no reason to build cars better than the Japanese or Europeans. But if they think you'll look elsewhere for your next purchase then it gives them a definite incentive to improve their product. As it happens I only own American cars at the moment, but if a foreign company built a car I liked more than an American car you bet your ass I'd buy it.

By the way, about your signature: traders trade things. Traitors betray their country.

Legacy costs are a huge problem, the biggest one is Unions, period. Why?
1. They created a wacko requirement for healthcare and pensions, which makes up over 30% of the cost of US cars.
2. They drove wages above market value, hourly rates at UAW are over 50% higher for US than Jap manfs.
Combine this with the fact that the US made absolute shit cars (as a whole) for about 2 decades, and you get the point (hopefully). Who wants an inferior product?

Only since about 2005 have US cars been competitive overall, often better, than their foreign counterparts. Imagine providing better cars for 25% less than now and where would GM be...?
Who needs a bailout?
Toyota who?

Unions are outdated appendages that have metastizized into a cancer which is threatening to kill American cars. Anytime you're against secret ballots, that speaks VOLUMES about your motivation and corruption level. Can't rely on merit, have to bully. Unions helped the worker once upon a time, now they simply enslave those who don't want to think for themselves and are colluding with corrupt politicians to strangle productive business.

This is not a simple equation by any stretch but Unions are at the top of the list of those to blame. Let's not even talk about EPA, CAFE, fair trade or currency risk in this equation. I am amazed GM survived this long.

Legacy costs are a huge problem, the biggest one is Unions, period. Why?
1. They created a wacko requirement for healthcare and pensions, which makes up over 30% of the cost of US cars.
2. They drove wages above market value, hourly rates at UAW are over 50% higher for US than Jap manfs.
Combine this with the fact that the US made absolute shit cars (as a whole) for about 2 decades, and you get the point (hopefully). Who wants an inferior product?

Only since about 2005 have US cars been competitive overall, often better, than their foreign counterparts. Imagine providing better cars for 25% less than now and where would GM be...?
Who needs a bailout?
Toyota who?

Unions are outdated appendages that have metastizized into a cancer which is threatening to kill American cars. Anytime you're against secret ballots, that speaks VOLUMES about your motivation and corruption level. Can't rely on merit, have to bully. Unions helped the worker once upon a time, now they simply enslave those who don't want to think for themselves and are colluding with corrupt politicians to strangle productive business.

This is not a simple equation by any stretch but Unions are at the top of the list of those to blame. Let's not even talk about EPA, CAFE, fair trade or currency risk in this equation. I am amazed GM survived this long.

DEAD F'ING ON DUDE-YOU NAILED IT!!!!!!!!
GM is begging the Government to help, therefore they have to adhere to their rules, sounds crappy, but they have no other choices.
Unions, 'only good for those that belong to them', not needed today as we have great Labor Laws, and about a bizillion attorneys to help you if laws are not adhered to. The UAW, NEA, et al,,, are jokes, feeding the coffers of the Liberal Politicians, influencing their members to vote at a more than 90% majority for the Lib Politicians. Teachers will not suffer the same percentage of job loss as all other industries during our recession, as they are protected, not sure why, as 30 kids in a classroom worked fine when I was in school. So why does the NEA exist, for better work conditions and wages, you are an idiot to believe that, here's why. "ALL TEACHERS WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT, NO NEED TO HAVE A UNION REPRESENT YOU". Oh, and the union arguement for better wages, this is America, if you do not like the wage your employer is paying, update your resume and move on!!
The UAW is toast, good f'ing riddance, they always want more, what have their concessions been the last 3 years????
The POTUS and his Congress are pushing for more unions, why???--SIMPLE, THEY WANT MORE POLITICAL ALLIES, WHAT A F'ING JOKE, THE MAFIA HAS MORE SCRUPLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, Unions work only for its members, but even more so for its management,,,

OH, btw, The POTUS and Congress will do everything they can to save The Big Three and create more unions, as they like their do-nothing jobs, and they cannot afford to lose the vote in MI, PA, OH, IN, etc,,, in 2012.

,,, and not that I will be asked, but not one more penny of my hard-earned tax dollars should be utilized to preserve the over-paid salaries of the under-performing workers in failed American industries,,, let them die off!!!

Legacy costs are changing daily. You guys need to update your facts. In 2010, next year, when VEBA kicks in it will costs domestics (1%) one percentage more to produce a vehicle than it's Jap counterpart. And all the domestics will be here next year but probably not in the future. They are already charging more than the competition for each vehicle sold so we can say they are pretty close now.

And as time goes by guess who's is going to have the biggest legacy cost down the road? Domestics are replacing people with lower wage than the Jap's which are and will see slight increases but unless the Jap's lower their wage incoming workers will see their costs per person increase at a faster rate. The Jap's cannot stop production and pay workers to paint parks or sit in training for months and months like they have been since last year. I know of no company that can pay someone to not do they're job. If you know someone who is, are they hiring? :). So it's just not a union thing. These oligopolies cannot survive forever paying 100% salaries for idle workers like the Jap's do.

The Unions voted in Obama and now he's going to Bankrupt GM and oust the Unions...Government Motors. Socialism at it's best and it's just beginning.

The Unions voted in Obama and now he's going to Bankrupt GM and oust the Unions...Government Motors. Socialism at it's best and it's just beginning.


To quote the great Margaret Thatcher:
"SOCIALISM WORKS FINE UNTIL THE GUY PAYING ALL THE BILLS RUNS OUT OF MONEY!

Legacy costs are changing daily. You guys need to update your facts. In 2010, next year, when VEBA kicks in it will costs domestics (1%) one percentage more to produce a vehicle than it's Jap counterpart. And all the domestics will be here next year but probably not in the future. They are already charging more than the competition for each vehicle sold so we can say they are pretty close now.

And as time goes by guess who's is going to have the biggest legacy cost down the road? Domestics are replacing people with lower wage than the Jap's which are and will see slight increases but unless the Jap's lower their wage incoming workers will see their costs per person increase at a faster rate. The Jap's cannot stop production and pay workers to paint parks or sit in training for months and months like they have been since last year. I know of no company that can pay someone to not do they're job. If you know someone who is, are they hiring? :). So it's just not a union thing. These oligopolies cannot survive forever paying 100% salaries for idle workers like the Jap's do.

Norm,
Along with the facts, you provide good insight. Regarding The Big Three, it is hard to look to future and the 'what ifs', as their present problems are so enormous, to the extent that their future may have already been decided. I think all of us here can agree that WE DO NOT WANT GM TO FAIL, but if the cost is too high, the future is not well-planned, the Unions are unwilling to make concessions and the Government is too involved, etc... we are wearing blinders.

I guess I would have quit too, if I was only making $1/year.


Do you really think he was working for $1/year?

That is one BIG joke!!!

Legacy costs are a huge problem, the biggest one is Unions, period. Why?
1. They created a wacko requirement for healthcare and pensions, which makes up over 30% of the cost of US cars.
2. They drove wages above market value, hourly rates at UAW are over 50% higher for US than Jap manfs.
Combine this with the fact that the US made absolute shit cars (as a whole) for about 2 decades, and you get the point (hopefully). Who wants an inferior product?

Only since about 2005 have US cars been competitive overall, often better, than their foreign counterparts. Imagine providing better cars for 25% less than now and where would GM be...?
Who needs a bailout?
Toyota who?

Unions are outdated appendages that have metastizized into a cancer which is threatening to kill American cars. Anytime you're against secret ballots, that speaks VOLUMES about your motivation and corruption level. Can't rely on merit, have to bully. Unions helped the worker once upon a time, now they simply enslave those who don't want to think for themselves and are colluding with corrupt politicians to strangle productive business.

This is not a simple equation by any stretch but Unions are at the top of the list of those to blame. Let's not even talk about EPA, CAFE, fair trade or currency risk in this equation. I am amazed GM survived this long.

I'm too lazy to type my views on this sore subject. It can get long and some people's ignorance is too hard to chip away at. jmilz28, I think you did a good job in explaining things.

The current economy expedited to what was inevitable to ocurr for the Big-Three if they didn't shape up. For years these three companies were making crap cars which forced consumers to look at Asian manufacturers. This practice cannot last forever and eventually the bottom will drop out. The current economy made the fall occur much earlier and quicker thanks to the mess the banks created over the last 20 years. Keep in mind, the Asian manufacturers make cars here in the U.S. and do not suffer the problems the domestics are having. Hint: UAW. I believe the union suffocated the Big-Three from their over-the-top salaries and benefits. This high cost caused the Big-Three to cheap out on parts & service to remain competitive and their quality suffered. Unions were needed years ago to protect the worker from overbearing factories but now there are government facilities for protection a union is no longer needed. It's amazing the Big-Three can make what they offer and still be [somewhat] competitive. I can't imagine how they would perform against the foreign companies if the unions were not in power. The Big-Three would crush them.

Now the Big-Three have a "rich Uncle" that may/will bail them out but they will never survive with the UAW leech sucking them dry. I hope the Big-Three come out of this. Nothing bores me to death more that what the Asian car companies have to offer.

A big fear has come to life and it should be a concern for everyone. Wagoner was pressured to leave GM by the government. Now you have the government telling you how to run (hire & fire) your business. What happened to a free market? What is next? They tell you what you should drive? What color? (search Californial banning black/dark painted cars) WTH does the government know about making cars?? Seriously, look deeper into the issues at hand and not what they look like on the surface. This ousting just opens the door to where government will control our everyday lives.

I agree totally. If this doesn't scream dictator I don't know what does.

For saying that sir you are an ass....

A big fear has come to life and it should be a concern for everyone. Wagoner was pressured to leave GM by the government. Now you have the government telling you how to run (hire & fire) your business. What happened to a free market? What is next? They tell you what you should drive? What color? (search Californial banning black/dark painted cars) WTH does the government know about making cars?? Seriously, look deeper into the issues at hand and not what they look like on the surface. This ousting just opens the door to where government will control our everyday lives.

This is very bothersome, but regarding Wagoner, I think GM was subject to the 'whatever you want' rules once they agreed to take Gov money. Very wrong to dictate how businesses operate, but the option is not to take the money, which they could not do. Government will not solve the economic issues with their print money and tax the rich strategy. We are in a deep rut, as no one in the present Administration has a successful business past, and they are too arrogant to understand this.

BTW, I did read about the car color issue in California, UNBELIEVEABLE, the next thing we may see is a regulator in cars to limit the number of hours you can run the A/C each month,,,

I agree it is to hard to chip away with some people but ill just rant a bit since this is a sore topic.

Am i dreaming this or did you guys say that the overseas(japan,etc) have a strong car industry. Isn't true that they recorded a bigger lose in sales this past year then GM?

Whoever said that GM makes unreliable cars go to hell. Yes they may have made a few out of millions that just planned suck but give me a break. Japs make the throw away car which in this economy won't get ya far.

If you guys can sit there and compare japs wages to US wages then you really do have no clue.

Lastly, if the big 3 do fold it won't just affect the workers of those company's. It will affect the millions of retired auto workers as well. Which means we all get BONED IN THE ASS.

Shit rolls DOWN hill, END RANT

...Am i dreaming this or did you guys say that the overseas(japan,etc) have a strong car industry. Isn't true that they recorded a bigger lose in sales this past year then GM?

I'd like to see some numbers and the source of those numbers.


Whoever said that GM makes unreliable cars go to hell. Yes they may have made a few out of millions that just planned suck but give me a break. Japs make the throw away car which in this economy won't get ya far.

A few????! I disagree. I'll see you in hell.



If you guys can sit there and compare japs wages to US wages then you really do have no clue.

Read and comprehend. We were talking about wages in the US. Toyota & Honda which are Japanese companies operating in the U.S. We are not talking about wages in Japan.


Lastly, if the big 3 do fold it won't just affect the workers of those company's. It will affect the millions of retired auto workers as well. Which means we all get BONED IN THE ASS.
Kind of makes you wonder why the Big-Three never stood their ground in the past to not let this happen in the first place!

Toyota who is also struggling is praying that GM doesn't go down. When that happens additional suppliers close shop causing big problems for the remaining car companies. Less suppliers means higher prices, less output. All you GM haters & Jap lovin cars better think twice.

And the whole lack of quality comments from the US car companies is bullshit. I'm sick of this crap. It's an old argument that doesn't hold up today.

Toyota was last amoung Japanese car makers in Japan last month. I think just about all Asian car makers have gone to their government for financial assistance if not at least lending assistants to help people get back into buying easier.



I'd like to see some numbers and the source of those numbers.


A few????! I disagree. I'll see you in hell.



Read and comprehend. We were talking about wages in the US. Toyota & Honda which are Japanese companies operating in the U.S. We are not talking about wages in Japan.


Kind of makes you wonder why the Big-Three never stood their ground in the past to not let this happen in the first place!

For saying that sir you are an ass....Why is that? A government taking over the largest industries in the Nation and calling the shots with deadlines and ultimatums.

Please explain in more detail how i am an ass for stating my opinion about it on a car forum?? LOL




A big fear has come to life and it should be a concern for everyone. Wagoner was pressured to leave GM by the government. Now you have the government telling you how to run (hire & fire) your business. What happened to a free market? What is next? They tell you what you should drive? What color? (search Californial banning black/dark painted cars) WTH does the government know about making cars?? Seriously, look deeper into the issues at hand and not what they look like on the surface. This ousting just opens the door to where government will control our everyday lives.


And it only took No-BAMA two months to achieve partial control over them LOL that is scary

BTW, I have purchased 3 new GM and 5 new Ford (SUVs) vehicles in the past 12 years, totalling approximately $320K, so I am not part of the problem:engarde:!!!

surprise surprise


http://www.bgdailynews.com/articles/2009/03/25/news/news2.txt

"The automaker has already said it wants to sell its Saab and Hummer divisions and phase out Saturn. After Obama’s call for GM to implement deeper restricting measures, Buick, Pontiac and GMC are likely to go too, said IHS Global Insight’s Wolkonowicz. That would leave the automaker with just two core U.S. operations: Chevy and Cadillac."

Chevy and Cadillac...wtf Obama. You guys that voted for Obama wanted change. Well it's coming.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29972325//

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m276/JD03Cobra/GM.jpg

the problem is americans think its cool to go out and buy jap autos so they have somehtign to talk about to all there friends on how classy they think they are by sending money over to japan...



...yea...thats what it is...:confused:

Total Fascism if you accept Gov money, then again, the choice is yours:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Beyond-AIG-A-Bill-to-let-Big-Government-Set-Your-Salary-42158597.html

One of the biggest problems that has been for many years is the govt gettin in the way and dictating cafe standards, gas guzzler tax's, and cars consumers dont want. What do you think is gonna happen now...:mad:

DEAD F'ING ON DUDE-YOU NAILED IT!!!!!!!!
GM is begging the Government to help, therefore they have to adhere to their rules, sounds crappy, but they have no other choices.
Unions, 'only good for those that belong to them', not needed today as we have great Labor Laws, and about a bizillion attorneys to help you if laws are not adhered to. The UAW, NEA, et al,,, are jokes, feeding the coffers of the Liberal Politicians, influencing their members to vote at a more than 90% majority for the Lib Politicians. Teachers will not suffer the same percentage of job loss as all other industries during our recession, as they are protected, not sure why, as 30 kids in a classroom worked fine when I was in school. So why does the NEA exist, for better work conditions and wages, you are an idiot to believe that, here's why. "ALL TEACHERS WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT, NO NEED TO HAVE A UNION REPRESENT YOU". Oh, and the union arguement for better wages, this is America, if you do not like the wage your employer is paying, update your resume and move on!!
The UAW is toast, good f'ing riddance, they always want more, what have their concessions been the last 3 years????
The POTUS and his Congress are pushing for more unions, why???--SIMPLE, THEY WANT MORE POLITICAL ALLIES, WHAT A F'ING JOKE, THE MAFIA HAS MORE SCRUPLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, Unions work only for its members, but even more so for its management,,,

OH, btw, The POTUS and Congress will do everything they can to save The Big Three and create more unions, as they like their do-nothing jobs, and they cannot afford to lose the vote in MI, PA, OH, IN, etc,,, in 2012.

,,, and not that I will be asked, but not one more penny of my hard-earned tax dollars should be utilized to preserve the over-paid salaries of the under-performing workers in failed American industries,,, let them die off!!!



I love your last sentence. There are far too many labor laws that stand within our Government as of right now. It is too easy for an individual to do minimum work and get paid just as much if not more than the hard working John trying to make an extra buck to put just a little more food on the table, or to seal that leaking roof up. My biggest concern with today's economy is that Obama is going to turn this country Socialist. Why should half of America's hard working people pay for and receive the same health care as the welfare couple that has no out of pocket? Save the auto industry and start attacking the oil companies and the banks who put us in this mess. Variable rate interest loans.... want your money from the home owner, put his interest rate back where it was when he was making a payment every month. Don't keep it 3-4% higher where it doubles his mortgage payment and you have to forclose on 2+ million homes!

This signature makes me cringe, as who is spewing this illogical rhetoric:

Anti-Union=Anti-America

the south is in bed with foriegn autos! TRADERS!

First of all, ask any business owner if unions benefit him, the answer will be no, and forcing unions upon business owners is a strategy that will backfire, but if successful could be construed as akin to hostage taking/exhortion. I am anti-union, I am an American, I am a business owner, my employees, all 10 of them receive the benefits comparable to a Fortune 1000 company---why am I a bad guy?!?!?
The second part, I think you mean Hyundai and Nissan, they came here determined to provide jobs and benefit from the hard-working ethic of Americans, and choose not to enlist the help of the UAW. Seems like it works well for them, and as a matter of fact, their respective states welcomed them with tax breaks in order to provide jobs, at a very good rate when compared to other jobs in their area.
Lastly, if you are pro-union, you are probably not a fan of outsourcing, which is being greatly leveraged by The Big Three, facilitated by NAFTA. Outsourcing works because labor costs are too prohibitive here, without it The Big Three and most manufacturers could not be competitive regarding price. I know a few staunch haters of outsourcing, but try this one on, if Dell computers were only made here, and other countries adopted our 'Nationalistic' policy, they would have no global consumers, which would render them bankrupt. You cannot have it both ways, just as you cannot cling to the union mentality, times are changing, the U.S. is more global than ever, and competition does not allow us to carry unecessary costs.

BTW, Toyota America builds cars in the U.S. with parts supplied by American companies, pays American labor to build them, sells them at American dealerships with commissions paid to American salespeople, and the cars are maintained and repaired by American technicians. Also, TOYOF has paid a nice dividend to American shareholders while preserving a much higher precentage of its share price over the last five years than the Americans who have invested in The Big Three. One can easily argue, and win, that Toyota has done much more for Americans than The Big Three have done in the recent past. Sure hope the $50+B we will give The Big Three in loans do not end up in the taxpayers' loss column,,,

DEAD F'ING ON DUDE-YOU NAILED IT!!!!!!!!
GM is begging the Government to help, therefore they have to adhere to their rules, sounds crappy, but they have no other choices.
Unions, 'only good for those that belong to them', not needed today as we have great Labor Laws, and about a bizillion attorneys to help you if laws are not adhered to. The UAW, NEA, et al,,, are jokes, feeding the coffers of the Liberal Politicians, influencing their members to vote at a more than 90% majority for the Lib Politicians. Teachers will not suffer the same percentage of job loss as all other industries during our recession, as they are protected, not sure why, as 30 kids in a classroom worked fine when I was in school. So why does the NEA exist, for better work conditions and wages, you are an idiot to believe that, here's why. "ALL TEACHERS WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT, NO NEED TO HAVE A UNION REPRESENT YOU". Oh, and the union arguement for better wages, this is America, if you do not like the wage your employer is paying, update your resume and move on!!
The UAW is toast, good f'ing riddance, they always want more, what have their concessions been the last 3 years????
The POTUS and his Congress are pushing for more unions, why???--SIMPLE, THEY WANT MORE POLITICAL ALLIES, WHAT A F'ING JOKE, THE MAFIA HAS MORE SCRUPLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, Unions work only for its members, but even more so for its management,,,

OH, btw, The POTUS and Congress will do everything they can to save The Big Three and create more unions, as they like their do-nothing jobs, and they cannot afford to lose the vote in MI, PA, OH, IN, etc,,, in 2012.

,,, and not that I will be asked, but not one more penny of my hard-earned tax dollars should be utilized to preserve the over-paid salaries of the under-performing workers in failed American industries,,, let them die off!!!



I love your last sentence. There are far too many labor laws that stand within our Government as of right now. It is too easy for an individual to do minimum work and get paid just as much if not more than the hard working John trying to make an extra buck to put just a little more food on the table, or to seal that leaking roof up. My biggest concern with today's economy is that Obama is going to turn this country Socialist. Why should half of America's hard working people pay for and receive the same health care as the welfare couple that has no out of pocket? Save the auto industry and start attacking the oil companies and the banks who put us in this mess. Variable rate interest loans.... want your money from the home owner, put his interest rate back where it was when he was making a payment every month. Don't keep it 3-4% higher where it doubles his mortgage payment and you have to forclose on 2+ million homes!

I am in the mortgage industry, it sucks right now, has for the past 2.5 years- I have never committed fraud on a file, never misrepresented a borrower's ability to repay, never submitted a file for approval that was marginal, never approved a single loan, always maintained very high ethical standards in my 20+ years in the biz. I have to decide to stay in it, or move on, I do not blame anyone, it is the life I choose, the Gov has no money available to me, would not take it if available as I want to make my own decisions regarding the operation of my company. The Foreclsoure Assistance/Bailout is bullsh!t, here is my view:

1) DO NOT HELP OUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE REFINANCED FOUR OR FIVE TIMES IN THE PAST SEVEN YEARS AND TAKEN OUT EVERY LAST BIT OF EQUITY, AND NOW HAVE A PAYMENT THAT THEY DO NOT LIKE, OR CANNOT AFFORD BECAUSE THEY NOW HAVE TWO $600/MONTH CAR PAYMENTS
2) DO NOT HELP OUT PEOPLE WHO OVERPAID FOR A HOUSE DURING 'THE BOOM' AND NOW OWE MORE THAN THE HOUSE IS WORTH, THEY PROBABLY SOLD A HOUSE PRIOR TO BUYING THIS ONE, RECEIVED A TON OF MONEY FROM THE SALE, BLEW IT ON VACATIONS, FINANCED THE CURRENT HOME AT 100% AND THEIR BAD FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT HAS PUT THEM IN A BIND
3) DO NOT HELP PEOPLE WHO TOOK A NEGATIVE AMORTIZATION LOAN AND "DID NOT KNOW THAT MAKING A $600/MONTH ON A $200K LOAN DID NOT COVER THE INTEREST AND NOW THE BALANCE IS HIGHER THAN THE LOAN STARTED AT"---MORONS, IF YOU PAYOFF A $150K LOAN WITH A PAYMENT OF $1,200/MONTH AND GET A $200K LOAN WITH A PAYMENT OF $600/MONTH, SOMETHING IS WRONG, IF YOU DID NOT REALIZE THIS AT YOUR CLOSING, LOOK AT THE BALANCE ON YOUR MONTHLY STATEMENT
4) DO NOT HELP ANYONE UNLESS THERE IS A SECOND MORTGAGE ATTACHED FOR THE AMOUNT OF ASSISTANCE THEY RECEIVE, AS THE WAY IT WILL PLAY OUT IN THE END IS THAT THOSE RECEIVING A PRINCIPAL REDUCTION WILL SELL THE HOUSE IN FIVE YEARS (OR GO THROUGH ANOTHER TWO FORECLOSURES DUE TO THEIR IMMATURITY) AND PROFIT FROM THE MARKET'S UPTURN---HYPOCRISY TO THE HIGHEST DEGREE AND GROSS INCOMPETENCE BY OUR SOCIALIST GOVERNMENT---SIMPLY PUT, IF YOUR MORTGAGE BALANCE IS REDUCED $50K, YOU PAY IT BACK WHEN YOU SELL THE HOME, OF COURSE THE $50K WILL NOT ACCRUE INTEREST, AS THESE PEOPLE ARE THE 'UNFORTUNATES' AND NEVER MEANT FOR THIS TO HAPPEN
5) SO THE HONEST, HARD-WORKING, FINANCIALLY PRUDENT TAXPAYER GETS THE SHAFT, REMEMBER THAT THE PRESENT ADMINISTRATION'S GOAL IS TO ONLY HELP THOSE THAT VOTED FOR THEM AND HAVE GIVEN UP ON TAKING ACTIONS TO SECURE THEIR OWN FUTURE, THE OTHER 43% WILL GET SCREWED
6) AND LASTLY, REGARDING EQUAL PAY AND BENEFITS, THE FAMOUS WOMANIZER, JOHN EDWARDS, SAID DURING A DEBATE IN 2004 THAT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE SAME HEALTHCARE COVERAGE, THIS FROM A GUY WHO HAS THE VERY BEST HEALTHCARE PLAN IN AMERICAN, PAYS NOTHING FOR IT AND MADE HIS $150+M FORTUNE BY SUING HOSPITALS AND DOCTORS IN CLASS ACTION SUITS, THUS DRIVING UP THE COSTS OF HEALTHCARE, HE IS A BRAINLESS TWIT, HIS NEXT RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE WILL INCLUDE SUCH BULLSH!T ALONG WITH "EVERYONE SHOULD LIVE IN THE SAME SIZE HOME AND DRIVE THE SAME TYPE OF CAR REGARDLESS OF INCOME"---FAWKING MORON!!!!!!!!!!!

That's it for this post, fingers are damned tired, need to go out and pick up a can of Skoal, which is grossly overtaxed---hmm, could be my next topic, as the Pleasure Police have run amok----JOYKILLERS!!!!!
Oh, and the POTUS is sure to tax the hell out of after-market performance mods in the near future, can you say 'retroactive after-market automotive component tax'----WTF, I am moving to Ireland, whiskey is damn good, not as good as Scotch, but the golf is argueably better,,,

Variable rate interest loans.... want your money from the home owner, put his interest rate back where it was when he was making a payment every month. Don't keep it 3-4% higher where it doubles his mortgage payment and you have to forclose on 2+ million homes!

Homeowners who have seen an unmanageable payment increase should receive assistance. Not sure why they took an A.R.M., as fixed rates were always available, the biggest reason for opting for the variable rate was the lower initial rate, again a poor choice by someone who can drive, reproduce and vote. The biggest reason for foreclosures is not that people cannot afford their mortgage payment, or the loss of an income, there is help available to these individuals, the biggest problems is that the value of the homes have decreased to an amount where paying on a decreasing asset no longer makes sense, as you can rent the same size/type of home for about 30-40% less. Many people do want to stay in their homes, help them, but remember, close to 95% of Americans are paying their mortgage on time each month (Foreclosures stats do not break down the percentage of 'troubled loans' that are either rental/income properties or second homes). Also remember that not everyone is entitled to homeownership, it is a privilege, AND A RESPONSIBILITY!!

all goes back to the government screwing the pooch on the mortgage industry too. It all sucks and its just gonna get worse before it gets better

all goes back to the government screwing the pooch on the mortgage industry too. It all sucks and its just gonna get worse before it gets better


Mortgage Mess Top 10 List:
1) Legislating Bad Loans for Bad People--->Bad Idea
2) Greed, Lenders made loans to anyone not in a cementary
3) Poor Underwriting, no consistency, no integrity
4) Politicians ignoring the future problems that were inevitable
5) 100% financing programs
6) Stated income programs
7) Adjustable Rate Mortgages, Negative Amortization Mortgages
8) Fradulent appraisals
9) Insurance companies and other institutions investing in bad loans, they abandoned their corporate disciplines
10) George Bush, why not blame him for this, every other problem is his fault

....

and as for gm's quality... take a peek at jd power latley? gm leads quite a few segments as i recall... the gm of the 80's and early 90's everyone loved to hate is no more im sorry... :
Well I'm sure those that were screwed in the 80's & 90's will forgive them now.:eyes:

....
the problem is americans think its cool to go out and buy jap autos so they have somehtign to talk about to all there friends on how classy they think they are by sending money over to japan...
I have no idea where this nonsense logic came from! Speak for yourself.

I think all you Whiners should go trade your V's for a ricer. Then you could set in your car and listen to your God Rush Limbaugh and smile knowing that you aren't helping us UAW workers !!

:D

all goes back to the government screwing the pooch on the mortgage industry too. It all sucks and its just gonna get worse before it gets better
I believe it was the false representation of lenders and loan trading that got us in this mess..not the gov't. Now the gov't see that we the people f'ed it up and now the gov't wants to regulate everything so it doesn't happen again. Say good bye to the free market.

...WTF, I am moving to Ireland,
I hear ya dude! :chug: I wonder if there will be mass immigration back to the homeland if this gov't here gets crazy?

I think all you Whiners should go trade your V's for a ricer. Then you could set in your car and listen to your God Rush Limbaugh and smile knowing that you aren't helping us UAW workers !!
What has your union done for you?

I think all you Whiners should go trade your V's for a ricer. Then you could set in your car and listen to your God Rush Limbaugh and smile knowing that you aren't helping us UAW workers !!

:D

Hmm, I am little confused, probably naive too, but I think you are saying that we should buy cars from only The Big Three due to the UAW builds them. If I am reading you correctly, that may be the most pathetic statement I have seen in my lifetime. By the way, read my earlier posts, I only buy American, due to some loyalty but mostly due to I see value in the vehicle, specifically GM as of late. To ask consumers to buy solely due to the UAW factor is nutless, brainless, spineless, etc... and btw, most people who have made it their profession to research the U.S. Auto Industry will tell you that the mentality to assume and request that Americans buy American cars solely on the criteria that they are made here will agree that was a major contributor to the decline, and hopefully not, the end.

[QUOTE=Slithering_Joe;11347906]I believe it was the false representation of lenders and loan trading that got us in this mess..not the gov't. Now the gov't see that we the people f'ed it up and now the gov't wants to regulate everything so it doesn't happen again. Say good bye to the free market.

yes, to an extent, we could debate that all day long but none of this woulda happened if the govt wasnt strong arming banks, which started in the 70's pushed more in the 90's, to make loans to risky borrowers, who probly should never have had a mortgage in the first place. but i agree bye bye free market

Looks like The Constitution, along with Capitalism, will be bygone characteristics of our Great Nation:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/31/obamas-appointment-koh-state-department-legal-adviser-stirs-controversy/

Then again, I believe almost of the Dem candidates for The White House, at some point of their campaigns, sold 'the unfortunates' on the belief that we would all benefit if we could just be more like Europe.

My new slogan, 'Obama, one nation, one leader, one mentality, and one very fast trip to H3LL!!!'

Onebadcad,
Please don’t look down on Obama for not helping industry. Look what he has done for firearms industry, Ruger and Smith and Wesson stock is doing really well! Unfortunately Obama came too late for Winchester, as the union sent them under and now the Winchesters that are produced today are in name only and made in Japan. I am sure you will have some very logical comments when he bans your ability to buying a firearm.
:bigun2: :kali:

Firearms and a run on ammo! :)

Honda is offering North America wide buyout. All levels will see a decrease in compensation.



Onebadcad,
Please don’t look down on Obama for not helping industry. Look what he has done for firearms industry, Ruger and Smith and Wesson stock is doing really well! Unfortunately Obama came too late for Winchester, as the union sent them under and now the Winchesters that are produced today are in name only and made in Japan. I am sure you will have some very logical comments when he bans your ability to buying a firearm.
:bigun2: :kali:

DAMN!!! I didn't realized I was going to get all of this started. Loving the politics on a car forum. Glad I didn't bring up anything about religion! :)

Firearms and a run on ammo! :).

I got mine, I hope you have yours!

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm190/leswad/DSC_0154-1.jpg?t=1238553519

Locked, stocked, and loaded here!

Chrysler has extended buyouts to indefinitely. Which means take it while we're here. :)

Boy this admin is sure making bad decisions and throwing money the wrong way!

I think all you Whiners should go trade your V's for a ricer. Then you could set in your car and listen to your God Rush Limbaugh and smile knowing that you aren't helping us UAW workers !!

:D

Why should we be? You're the one who's whiney with you sob story and victim-like attitude. If the UAW weren't raping GM and knew a damn thing about product management and running a biz, GM would be fine.

Seems like being in a union these days has more reprocussions and limitations that it would if you were just a normal employee. See, if you had skills and didn't like your job, you wouldn't need any protection, you could just go somewhere else. That's competition and fair market reasoning where the individual is empowered to take control of their future. You are a drag on society.

Onebadcad,
Please don’t look down on Obama for not helping industry. Look what he has done for firearms industry, Ruger and Smith and Wesson stock is doing really well! Unfortunately Obama came too late for Winchester, as the union sent them under and now the Winchesters that are produced today are in name only and made in Japan. I am sure you will have some very logical comments when he bans your ability to buying a firearm.
:bigun2: :kali:

Great attitude, always looking for the upside, BHO has single-handedly resurrected the Gun Industry, albeit for a short time---seriously doubt if he will be the Keynote Speaker at the Annual NRA Convention. Have huge issues with victims suing the Gun Manufacturers, but that is a whole other thread we could start. Personally, I do not own firearms, three kids in the house is part of the reason, but I wholeheartedly support gun ownership, as it is assinine to think that keeping our honest citizens from owning guns will lessen crime. IMO, your gun, its ammo and your time at the range should be tax deductible, as it is your role in ensuring that the crime rate stays low in your city:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod:!

Your correct on the legacy costs. Looks like most of it will be off GM's books sometime next year.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyjZ8vgvbM1s&v=yjZ8vgvbM1s



Legacy costs are a huge problem, the biggest one is Unions, period. Why?
1. They created a wacko requirement for healthcare and pensions, which makes up over 30% of the cost of US cars.
2. They drove wages above market value, hourly rates at UAW are over 50% higher for US than Jap manfs.
Combine this with the fact that the US made absolute shit cars (as a whole) for about 2 decades, and you get the point (hopefully). Who wants an inferior product?

Only since about 2005 have US cars been competitive overall, often better, than their foreign counterparts. Imagine providing better cars for 25% less than now and where would GM be...?
Who needs a bailout?
Toyota who?

Unions are outdated appendages that have metastizized into a cancer which is threatening to kill American cars. Anytime you're against secret ballots, that speaks VOLUMES about your motivation and corruption level. Can't rely on merit, have to bully. Unions helped the worker once upon a time, now they simply enslave those who don't want to think for themselves and are colluding with corrupt politicians to strangle productive business.

This is not a simple equation by any stretch but Unions are at the top of the list of those to blame. Let's not even talk about EPA, CAFE, fair trade or currency risk in this equation. I am amazed GM survived this long.

I need to find the stats but GM spent something like 5 million bucks last year on boner pills for UAW workers. I'm all for letting old men get stiffys but $5 million in boner pills?!!?

Maybe the European trip is to secure the LADA tooling from the former DDR so we can all (except for the party's heads, who will of course, be driven around in ZILs) have a cheap POS Commie car to go with our new socialist system. :bang:

Wasn't there also a guy named Adolph who did this sort of stuff in the 30s? It's interesting to see the parallels in tactics, just targeting different folks this time around :secret2: .

Wasn't there also a guy named Adolph who did this sort of stuff in the 30s? It's interesting to see the parallels in tactics, just targeting different folks this time around :secret2: .

Really? You really think you can compare Hitler and Obama? You don't think that might be the tiniest bit premature? Can't we at least wait until he annexes Czechoslovakia or something before we start comparisons with the Nazis?

Hey, it worked for a while.

Here is something else to consider in this debate. This is not the first story on this but, it was in today's news.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/04/exclusive-bailout-madness-general-motors-workers-parking-lot-filled-foreign-cars

If your own workers will not support you who will? This is from a lifelong GM guy with 3 cars and 1 marine engine in the garage right now.

Here is something else to consider in this debate. This is not the first story on this but, it was in today's news.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/04/exclusive-bailout-madness-general-motors-workers-parking-lot-filled-foreign-cars

If your own workers will not support you who will? This is from a lifelong GM guy with 3 cars and 1 marine engine in the garage right now.

They're probably pictures of the vistors lot. lol

Here is something else to consider in this debate. This is not the first story on this but, it was in today's news.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/04/exclusive-bailout-madness-general-motors-workers-parking-lot-filled-foreign-cars

If your own workers will not support you who will? This is from a lifelong GM guy with 3 cars and 1 marine engine in the garage right now.


since thats warren tech. center theres a very good chance those are cars being used for comparison testing against domestics by engineers, prolly taking those jap cars to milford proving grounds right now to fiind out what piles of shit they are !... manufactures trade cars back and forth for this all the time... you guys ever read that article about the 9 or so toyota execs. that are now in prison for covering up recalls and other saftey violations? hell thats one way to stay competative dont issues costly recalls!



and whats my union done for me? besides the honest wages, and FAIR contracts? well theres health care that rivals that of welfare rats.... safe work practices.... job security, for now... global manufacturing system (gms) etc.

and the 2007 national agreements were our union concessions, for the record... lets let them have a chance to work before we rape the union yet again with more demands. now if we could just get salaried to take a hit for once... maybe take some more money from the 5000+ gm execs. that make over 1million a year? that 3% pay cut most had to take doesnt make me feel any better after having 5% taken from my much much smaller wages and i actually do value added work to the car which gets sold for profit!!.... and besides we havent got a raise since 95' contract and that was back when gm was posting huge earnings.

9/11 hit and gas went sky high, (still trying to figure out why, and i no the whole "demand" excuse is b.s.) way to fast, and everyone wants gm to change over night from the trucks and suv's, that EVERYONE WANTED AND COULDNT GET ENOUGH OF mind you...and ontop of that good quality models take UP TO 8 years to engineer and go into production, and gm is expected to do it in an instant... but look and the good job gm has done already, with our crossovers that china cant get enough of! then you have the malibu, escalades that get 20+ mpg, and have you ever heard of a car called the volt?

and also for the record anyone who is union has the option to not pay union dues at anytime and still retain there job....


and as for my sig. its stands... the south are TRADERS... most traded $170,000$ in tax payer money per 1, 14$ an hour job. thats good economics right there....


and i wont even start on the banking segment...

theres my rant let the disecting begin!

A friend says that those are suppliers and contractors cars. There is no GM employees left! :)

Here is something else to consider in this debate. This is not the first story on this but, it was in today's news.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/04/exclusive-bailout-madness-general-motors-workers-parking-lot-filled-foreign-cars

If your own workers will not support you who will? This is from a lifelong GM guy with 3 cars and 1 marine engine in the garage right now.

My statement has nothing to do with unions that is a different topic, my point was that all of these cars are not just loaners these most likely are employees cars. There have also been stories written on a Ford plant I believe where Ford said if it isn't a Ford you can't park in the employee parking. If my memory serves me the union had a fit, but couldn't fight it because it wasn't covered in the contract.

Simply stated if the employees won't drive them why should we have either the unions or the government tell us we should then? Remember I have supported GM since I was old enough to spend my own money (my Dad was a Ford Man?!)

There may be more to it than just that someone won't drive GM (or Ford, or Chrysler). Maybe they had the car before they got the job. Maybe they are there for testing. Maybe they are visitor's cars. The nice thing about living in America is that we have the freedom to make choices, such as what to drive, where to live, etc.

... The nice thing about living in America is that we have the freedom to make choices, such as what to drive, where to live, etc.
:usa: Agree. Beautiful thing huh? As long as someone doesn't screw that up.

Obama admin is sending 15 people to Detroit for two weeks to aid GM. This car company must be important as none were sent to Chrysler but were given $4b and the end of the month to join with Fiat.

What gets me on the quality front is Toyota is basically happy to see GM restructure as Big O set aside $5b for suppliers, same suppliers that domestic and Japs use! I guess Big O supports the Japs too!