MY Dyno Woes...
04-20-2009, 03:08 PM
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MY Dyno Woes... Hey everyone... Most don't know me because I dont post unless I have an understanding of someone Else's troubles, or because I need help and cannot find an answer elsewhere...
I don't know much about tuning, but I know when something is wrong.
I originally had my car tuned at a small shop in Killeen,TX in 2007. It seemed fine, except for the WOT duty cycle on the injectors, which was 120%. Which is my fault, because they were stock on mild bolt ons. I lost one right after I got back from Iraq this year, and put 42# Racetronix injectors in. I was going to in Houston for the weekend, so I took the car to LMR in houston to have it retuned, and have the injectors taken care of, as well as look at the power loss I had from a new 12 bolt, and 100,000 miles.
I called and talked to a rep, and made an appointment to have that and my suspension taken care of, as the rear end install had made everything wacky... so I put a stock injector in, and drove down there. I dont want to bad mouth them, because it seems like they do good work, and they have alot of good numbers, but I dont think they care too much about the small time. Big heads or what ever.
When I got there, they said that no one told them that I needed suspension work, and that I would have to come back... They said they fired the guy that I gave my appointment to, so I suppose that was the problem there, no big deal... I will get it done later...
Anyway, they pulled 8 times and the car showed almost 100HP loss. I resolved that the car was old... so I left. $500 poorer.
The drive home went okay... mostly because I was bummed, and didn't pay much attention to the car. I noticed over the next few days that it seemed more sluggish than when I had taken it down, and it was stalling some when i pulled to a stop.
3 days later I get a service
Engine
Soon.
I scanned it, and it says bank 1 rich, and bank 2 rich, whatever code numbers that is...
I got it out on the weekend after I had it tuned and ran it a little harder, and realized it was blowing a lot of black smoke under WOT. and seemed sluggish from a stop, or when I downshifted. Wouldn't climb a hill for **** either. My first tank of gas when under in 174 miles. its an M6 with 3.42s in the back...
WTF...
So I call up the guy that originally tuned the car, and go back there. Because its not 4 hours away in Houston, where the "BIG BOYS" are.
He re tuned, and pushed it back to within 60 of the original tune, and told me that the fuel was close to 10.5:1 on the tune... He left it closer to 12.5, and worked the timing over a little. I know that its easy to make numbers on the dyno, but the car runs like its supposed to now. Holds idle, and doesn't black smoke.the gas mileage will be posted shortly, but i know it will be better. We are talking driveability, not dyno numbers. The difference between the pull in Houston, and the pull here in Killeen, was 6 HP as a base line, from 258, to 364.he pushed out 385
I will post all 3 runs when I get home tonight...
This is more of a warning to you if you are planning on going there... I think Stephen, the guy that owns the place is a good guy... Its just some of the people that he has there are less than awesome... He was as helpful as he felt he could be to me when I called...
I don't know much about tuning, but I know when something is wrong.
I originally had my car tuned at a small shop in Killeen,TX in 2007. It seemed fine, except for the WOT duty cycle on the injectors, which was 120%. Which is my fault, because they were stock on mild bolt ons. I lost one right after I got back from Iraq this year, and put 42# Racetronix injectors in. I was going to in Houston for the weekend, so I took the car to LMR in houston to have it retuned, and have the injectors taken care of, as well as look at the power loss I had from a new 12 bolt, and 100,000 miles.
I called and talked to a rep, and made an appointment to have that and my suspension taken care of, as the rear end install had made everything wacky... so I put a stock injector in, and drove down there. I dont want to bad mouth them, because it seems like they do good work, and they have alot of good numbers, but I dont think they care too much about the small time. Big heads or what ever.
When I got there, they said that no one told them that I needed suspension work, and that I would have to come back... They said they fired the guy that I gave my appointment to, so I suppose that was the problem there, no big deal... I will get it done later...
Anyway, they pulled 8 times and the car showed almost 100HP loss. I resolved that the car was old... so I left. $500 poorer.
The drive home went okay... mostly because I was bummed, and didn't pay much attention to the car. I noticed over the next few days that it seemed more sluggish than when I had taken it down, and it was stalling some when i pulled to a stop.
3 days later I get a service
Engine
Soon.
I scanned it, and it says bank 1 rich, and bank 2 rich, whatever code numbers that is...
I got it out on the weekend after I had it tuned and ran it a little harder, and realized it was blowing a lot of black smoke under WOT. and seemed sluggish from a stop, or when I downshifted. Wouldn't climb a hill for **** either. My first tank of gas when under in 174 miles. its an M6 with 3.42s in the back...
WTF...
So I call up the guy that originally tuned the car, and go back there. Because its not 4 hours away in Houston, where the "BIG BOYS" are.
He re tuned, and pushed it back to within 60 of the original tune, and told me that the fuel was close to 10.5:1 on the tune... He left it closer to 12.5, and worked the timing over a little. I know that its easy to make numbers on the dyno, but the car runs like its supposed to now. Holds idle, and doesn't black smoke.the gas mileage will be posted shortly, but i know it will be better. We are talking driveability, not dyno numbers. The difference between the pull in Houston, and the pull here in Killeen, was 6 HP as a base line, from 258, to 364.he pushed out 385
I will post all 3 runs when I get home tonight...
This is more of a warning to you if you are planning on going there... I think Stephen, the guy that owns the place is a good guy... Its just some of the people that he has there are less than awesome... He was as helpful as he felt he could be to me when I called...
04-20-2009, 05:47 PM
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I read it as...bad injector replaced with stock one. Drove to Houston, new 42# injectors installed, re-tune.
Re-tune did not compensate for new injectors and was pig rich (=sh*tty #s) because they did not change the fuel calibration for the new injectors. Drove home with wrong calibration on car...washed cylinder walls...probably has blow by now.
Re-tune did not compensate for new injectors and was pig rich (=sh*tty #s) because they did not change the fuel calibration for the new injectors. Drove home with wrong calibration on car...washed cylinder walls...probably has blow by now.
04-20-2009, 07:15 PM
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Yup Yeah... had a bad injector... replaced it with a stock...
drove to Houston with 8 good stock injectors, to have it tuned by "a better tuner".
Replaced the injectors on site... and drove it home... looks like maybe I have some fuel in the oil now... which wasn't there at last change... just changed the oil... and its foamy...
Its not, nor was it ever blowing any more blue smoke than any normal LS1 I have seen... so i don't see the oil blow by... but I imagine I am getting some combustion blow by during hard acceleration...
drove to Houston with 8 good stock injectors, to have it tuned by "a better tuner".
Replaced the injectors on site... and drove it home... looks like maybe I have some fuel in the oil now... which wasn't there at last change... just changed the oil... and its foamy...
Its not, nor was it ever blowing any more blue smoke than any normal LS1 I have seen... so i don't see the oil blow by... but I imagine I am getting some combustion blow by during hard acceleration...
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04-20-2009, 10:43 PM
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Something is way wrong with the last tune. The torque dropped off like a rock and it looks like it missing or something. The drivablity may be better but somethings deff wrong with the car.
04-21-2009, 10:09 AM
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damn... Yeah... if you look at the original tune... back in "the day" the car pulled all the way to the limiter...the torque fell away beginning around 5000 rpm... then a month ago, the car makes way less power, but the TQ curve is still the same. In the last one the TQ falls away beginning at around 4600 RPM. So what I see is that the car was good up until about 4 weeks ago... am I right? The first is roughly a 50 HP decrease from MAX TQ to red line. the next 60 and the last 115HP.
I know something is wrong... just don't know what... I thought that the car had developed an exhaust leak as well... but I cannot find the leak.... no black spots or anything... Has full length long tubes in it, and no cats... so the exhaust is pretty simple... Soft... slow tick at idle... Its under the car... not on top of the engine... I can hear it in the cabin over the exhaust all the time... LS1 lifter monster i bet...
I know something is wrong... just don't know what... I thought that the car had developed an exhaust leak as well... but I cannot find the leak.... no black spots or anything... Has full length long tubes in it, and no cats... so the exhaust is pretty simple... Soft... slow tick at idle... Its under the car... not on top of the engine... I can hear it in the cabin over the exhaust all the time... LS1 lifter monster i bet...
Last edited by jwillburn119; 04-21-2009 at 10:20 AM.
04-21-2009, 07:30 PM
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You should do a leak down test on it. If it was as rich as it looks in the middle graph it may have washed the rings out. Theres deff. something going on with the car. By the looks of the last graph it seems like the tuner at Sunshine would have picked up on some of the problems.
Last edited by willyfastz; 04-21-2009 at 07:42 PM.
04-21-2009, 07:57 PM
#11
First test should be a cylinder balance. Real easy to do with the scanner hooked up. When I get a car that's down on power or feels funny/sounds funny, that's the first thing I do.
There's only a few reasons for it to drop power like that. Valve springs are shot, although it doesn't look like it. Intake restriction (scanner should show that) or exhaust restriction. You don't have cats so it's less likely, but an exhaust backpressure test should be done. Or it could be down a cylinder. But any tuner worth half his weight should pick up on a dead hole.
The last tune has too much timing in it. I can tell by the graph. I would bet there was some audible knock.
More details on the setup may help too.
There's only a few reasons for it to drop power like that. Valve springs are shot, although it doesn't look like it. Intake restriction (scanner should show that) or exhaust restriction. You don't have cats so it's less likely, but an exhaust backpressure test should be done. Or it could be down a cylinder. But any tuner worth half his weight should pick up on a dead hole.
The last tune has too much timing in it. I can tell by the graph. I would bet there was some audible knock.
More details on the setup may help too.
04-21-2009, 08:10 PM
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First test should be a cylinder balance. Real easy to do with the scanner hooked up. When I get a car that's down on power or feels funny/sounds funny, that's the first thing I do.
There's only a few reasons for it to drop power like that. Valve springs are shot, although it doesn't look like it. Intake restriction (scanner should show that) or exhaust restriction. You don't have cats so it's less likely, but an exhaust backpressure test should be done. Or it could be down a cylinder. But any tuner worth half his weight should pick up on a dead hole.
The last tune has too much timing in it. I can tell by the graph. I would bet there was some audible knock.
More details on the setup may help too.
There's only a few reasons for it to drop power like that. Valve springs are shot, although it doesn't look like it. Intake restriction (scanner should show that) or exhaust restriction. You don't have cats so it's less likely, but an exhaust backpressure test should be done. Or it could be down a cylinder. But any tuner worth half his weight should pick up on a dead hole.
The last tune has too much timing in it. I can tell by the graph. I would bet there was some audible knock.
More details on the setup may help too.
This is one you wish you could get your hands on. Bet the problem wouldn't be to hard to find.
04-21-2009, 08:24 PM
#13
Since you are using the first graph as a baseline, you may want to examine that correction factor. 1.14 at 50F appears incorrect; probably should be less than 1.
If the correction factor were 1 then your peak horse would be around 390.
What's the AFR on the last graph?
If the correction factor were 1 then your peak horse would be around 390.
What's the AFR on the last graph?
04-21-2009, 10:46 PM
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Lol We realized that there was a problem when he tuned this last time... thats why I am here.
Its really a Head, cam, Exhaust car...
581, 591; 230, 234; 112 LSA
stock intake... which is some flow restriction on the top side....
the valve train is good... 918 beehives, lifters and moly rods, stock rockers...
i dont have any Idea about the correction factor... but I definitely will ask...
I know the power it is making now is more like what it was making before... doesn't feel much different than it did before the injector issue... I can feel the drag from the rear end...
but it sure sounds different... no ping or anything... just some sort of new tick/ knock...
and the tone in the exhaust doesn't seem as clean...
He pushed the bubble to see what he could get... but he left it at 12.5...
I talked to him again to make sure... he said that the fuel was at 10 flat when he did the baseline... so its probably washed out... I am gonna pressure test it this weekend probably... do a leak down on it... see if there was damage done... that was my plan as far as I could figure...
I have a Diablo Sport scanner/tuner... but I know if I screw it up... it will load an old tune... will this check cylinder balance, or are you talking about the dyno scanner?
I'm not sure about sunshine's tuning abilities... but I can definitely say that he did a better job than "the all powerful" LMR did... that was my point... I think I will take my chances in the future with the small time... at least they care alittle... LMR wont even listen when I call... that's why I posted...
The F'ed up part is... this was their second chance... I asked to have my Trans built when I first got back... dropped it off, they said it would be ready a week later... I showed up after my leave was up... almost 2 weeks later, and it was in pieces on a rack... had to wait on him to build it...
Just poor workmanship is what it seems...
Its really a Head, cam, Exhaust car...
581, 591; 230, 234; 112 LSA
stock intake... which is some flow restriction on the top side....
the valve train is good... 918 beehives, lifters and moly rods, stock rockers...
i dont have any Idea about the correction factor... but I definitely will ask...
I know the power it is making now is more like what it was making before... doesn't feel much different than it did before the injector issue... I can feel the drag from the rear end...
but it sure sounds different... no ping or anything... just some sort of new tick/ knock...
and the tone in the exhaust doesn't seem as clean...
He pushed the bubble to see what he could get... but he left it at 12.5...
I talked to him again to make sure... he said that the fuel was at 10 flat when he did the baseline... so its probably washed out... I am gonna pressure test it this weekend probably... do a leak down on it... see if there was damage done... that was my plan as far as I could figure...
I have a Diablo Sport scanner/tuner... but I know if I screw it up... it will load an old tune... will this check cylinder balance, or are you talking about the dyno scanner?
I'm not sure about sunshine's tuning abilities... but I can definitely say that he did a better job than "the all powerful" LMR did... that was my point... I think I will take my chances in the future with the small time... at least they care alittle... LMR wont even listen when I call... that's why I posted...
The F'ed up part is... this was their second chance... I asked to have my Trans built when I first got back... dropped it off, they said it would be ready a week later... I showed up after my leave was up... almost 2 weeks later, and it was in pieces on a rack... had to wait on him to build it...
Just poor workmanship is what it seems...
Last edited by jwillburn119; 04-21-2009 at 10:59 PM.
04-22-2009, 05:41 AM
#15
Firstly, I can't believe a "tuner" let the car get out of there with the AFR looking like is does on the chart. That's complete BS. Secondly, how many miles on the valve springs? You may have one or two broken if your'e running duals. You've got something going on from 5k RPM up.
04-22-2009, 06:40 AM
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You can do a balance test with HP Tuners scan software, Diablo doesn't have that in their scanner, that I know of.
You say you have a knock/tick sound in the engine. Could be bearing problems from all the gas that possibly went in your oil. Does the tick sound like it's in the top or bottom of the engine?
You say you have a knock/tick sound in the engine. Could be bearing problems from all the gas that possibly went in your oil. Does the tick sound like it's in the top or bottom of the engine?
04-22-2009, 11:41 AM
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yeah... 918s. They have been in the car for about 35,000 miles.
The knock/ tick is in the bottom of the motor... sounds like lifters at idle, more like a knock during acceleration.
The shops are about 4 hours apart. One is in Houston, the other is in Killeen,TX.
I am going to pull the valve covers and check the rockers... make sure none of them are loose... that should cover the lifter/spring issue.
The knock/ tick is in the bottom of the motor... sounds like lifters at idle, more like a knock during acceleration.
The shops are about 4 hours apart. One is in Houston, the other is in Killeen,TX.
I am going to pull the valve covers and check the rockers... make sure none of them are loose... that should cover the lifter/spring issue.
04-22-2009, 11:49 AM
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yeah... 918s. They have been in the car for about 35,000 miles.
The knock/ tick is in the bottom of the motor... sounds like lifters at idle, more like a knock during acceleration.
The shops are about 4 hours apart. One is in Houston, the other is in Killeen,TX.
I am going to pull the valve covers and check the rockers... make sure none of them are loose... that should cover the lifter/spring issue.
The knock/ tick is in the bottom of the motor... sounds like lifters at idle, more like a knock during acceleration.
The shops are about 4 hours apart. One is in Houston, the other is in Killeen,TX.
I am going to pull the valve covers and check the rockers... make sure none of them are loose... that should cover the lifter/spring issue.