cudaeh

iTrader: (2)

ok im sick and tired of entering a turn too hott and wondring half way through if its ever going to stop pushing so i can give it some more.
ive got an all stock susspension on a 98 firbird fromula im running shitty tires right now but i plan to get some decent meats on it. but i was wondering whats the best thing i can do susspension wise to solve this probablem. stiffer rear sway bar maby? whats the best set up to solve this probablem?

sawedoff

iTrader: (3)

You said this happens when you enter a turn going too fast. Does this understeer happen as you let off the gas and apply the brakes? I would say that some of the places to start, would be a larger diamter rear swaybar. Also how much air pressure are you running in your tires? You could even go to different springs, until you get it tuned the way you like it. You didn't specify what your needs were. Another place is you could get a high performance suspension alignment, once you get the tires you would like.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

You answered your own question. You need to slow down. If you want to modify something to help fix the problem, I suggest sticky tires and upgraded brake pads. You'll stop sooner and be able to carry more speed through the corner. You don't need suspension parts, you need to fix the driver. Don't worry, I am/have been going through this for a while myself. You're not alone, but changing the car may help some, fixing the driver will help alot (and it's cheaper).

The other mod that you should do in the near future is a performance alignment. That will help increase front grip and eliminate some of the push. It won't cure a car that is being over driven, but it can help. I run -1.3 degrees of camber, 4.5 degrees of castor and 1/32nd inch of toe out. My car is daily driven and I got 30,000 out of my front tires (they were not to the tread wear bars at 30k).

My thoughts....

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

And good thoughts they are.

Everyone who reads this thread ...
No amount of suspension can overcome bad driving habits.

cudaeh

iTrader: (2)

wow im offended!!
nahw just kidding not that offended if there are no good suspension upgrades that will help this probablem than fine. but im just saying there has got to be a set up that will get the fronts to plant in the corners... i know theres a way to carry more momentum through a turn than this!!

the probablem tends to be when i enter the turn too quick the weight wont shift to the front no matter how much i push it, breaking , down sifting nothing helps. i wanted to get a better perfoming suspension set up before i up grade the tires. ... id rather feel the back end step around in a turn rather than it pushing like a madd man.

im running bf good wrench radial ta's with about 30 psi in em.

i liike the idea of a decent alignment..

i guess my main reasion for doing the suspension before the tires is because i dont want my cornering to be totaly dependent on the tires.

over all agreed that theres no replacement for a good driver but im saying every little bit helps!

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

If you were offended ... I'm not sorry.

Like T-Bird said ... you need to slow down, especially when entering a corner.

You can slide Schumacher's F1 chassis underneath your car and if you "enter a corner too fast", you will encounter the same problem.

It has been my experience that a better handling car makes a driver with bad habits, worse. Bad habits are even more apparent as the car's potential increases.

I can take my car out on a track and run a given time, consistently. I can feel the car on it's edge.

Same day, same track, same conditions, a seasoned, experienced, well mannered driver can take my car out and run 2 seconds a lap quicker.

That is grossly obvious to me that I am leaving a LOT of car on the track and misapplying what I do use.

You must understand ... a car's handling is a package deal. One sets up the car's suspension based upon the tires to be run and vice-versa.

You will be chasing your tail.

cudaeh

iTrader: (2)

ok i can understand the suspension being based on the tires that makes sence.

what defines entering a turn too fast in my mind is entering it fast enough to cause understear. so i did mistakingly dub it too fast and if i were in your position i would too blame it on lack of driving skill as well. the only reasion i started to get defencive is you were so quick to blame handeling limatations on driver error so im sorry if i sounded overly defencive. but i am no rookie driving i do understand the forces at work and i do understand driving to the limatations of the car. what im saying is i know i can enter a turn faster than i am without drifting or creating understeer. i know the weak point on my handeling is my tires but all im asking is if any one knows of a way to help ilamanate understear but adjusting the suspension.
i do understand that yes a lot of it is driving. but i know the car is capable of more.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

And my contention is that until you learn to drive to the CAR's potential, instead of your own, you'll never solve your problem.

Fast,in most cases, is self control, disclipline and honesty. A man's got to know his limitations.

I understand your point completely. Your skill level is beyond that of what your car is capable of.

It appears we are debating the issue from the same side of the fence.

CHRISPY

Tires, brakes and alignment will help a great deal.

Good luck

4thGENRETARD

Better back to front weight ratio will help too

cudaeh

iTrader: (2)

mitchntx, i can see where your comming form on all of this and yes it does appear we are arguing the same point, i just wanted to make the point that yes i understnd i can slow down but i want to find a great set up to help cornering

hummm that is an idea to maby if i lighten the back end a littlemore.... maby a lexan back window and fiberglass hatch.... hummmm

nittos 555rII's and a set of i rotars are on the way

SLIDER

My 2cents: 1. Mitchntx--thx for advice on rear calipers, they installed EASIER than anticipated. 2. CUDAEH, Mitchntx had a lot of good points. However, to answer your original question on MOST BANG FOR BUCK ON SUSPENSION IMPROVEMENTS: Springs and Shocks: Eibach Prokit (lowers car appx 1.5" appx $200) AND Koni Adjustables (singles are appx $700 for 4) or Bilsteins (appx $350). The difference is MONUMENTAL, especially if you are running original springs/shocks. Your tires will wear evenly (i.e. on a clockwise track your left front won't be worn much more than your right front). Our cars are so heavy, with heavy front/rear ratio, SAVE your money and don't replace your glass rear. I also have welded subframe connectors ($200) and Shocktower Brace ($150) -- they help too -- BUT NOTHING HELPS AS MUCH AS STIFF SPRINGS AND SHOCKS -- say goodbye to bouncy bouncy Cadillac ride!!! I run shaved Kuhmo Victoracers at the track (most bang for buck), BUT recommend you dial in the suspension, get cozy with it, and then upgrade to R-compounds for the track. ALSO, a nice aftermarket seat (Recaro or takeoff brand) with 5 or 6 point harness will really help fine tune your finesse into/out of corners. ALSO, upgrade your pedals ($60 - 80), so you can heel/toe with more precision.
Remember, there are many your car could be understeering, and yes you should enter corners slower, and exit quicker. ALSO, I boiled my DOT3 OEM brake fluid last year at track (not fun), MOTUL is most popular fluid at track. Bleed brakes REGULARLY (every track event!), and upgrade your pads to street/track or full track pad if your car isnt daily driver. GOOD LUCK!!! ALSO, think about taking out your driving lights (or cutting holes in front airdam, and running duct work to back side of front rotors -- that helps cool fronts by a good 50 degrees)

SLIDER

Okay, I forgot a couple things:
1. Air pressure -- depends on tire, but as a general rule, to DECREASE understeer: RAISE the front pressure, but make sure you are checking tires when they are HOT, immediately after coming in from track. Front tires should be appx 3-5 PSI higher than rears, but in ANYCASE, NEVER exceed 42 PSI hot.
(tires will heat up 5-10 degrees depending on tire, and how aggressive you are driving.)
If you borrow a pyrometer from someone at the track, you will find your front outside wheel will be superhot on outside, and much cooler on inside. Upgrade to stiff spriings/shocks, and you will notice your tire temps will be much more even across the tread pattern. Negative camber helps too, but that is just icing, you need the cake first. (With 5 year old OEM suspension, I am surprised you can enter turns at 20 MPH....) HERE ARE A FEW GENERAL TIPS TO DECREASE UNDERSTEER:
1. Increase PSI in Front (or decrease PSI in rear)
2. Make Front Tires LARGER -- Never go to smaller front widths on F-Bodys, they are too nose heavy (unless you are 1/4 mile'ng to save weight) (or make the rears smaller)
3. More negative camber -- 2 - 3 degrees negative, but if daily driver and only tracking a couple times a year, you may want to forget this one.
4. Front wheel Toe -- Toe OUT
5. Front wheel Caster -- More positive
6. Front springs/shocks -- soften YOU NEED TO STIFFEN EVERYWHERE NOW!!
7. Rear springs/shocks -- stiffen
** upgrade all corners, and then you can adjust with Koni single adjustables (double adjustables are too expensive for the performance gain). Konis are easy to adjust in rear, difficult to adjust the fronts (while installed).

cudaeh

iTrader: (2)

cool thank you for all the good info... i have no probablem driving conservitivly if i know i have a good set up. i just hate backing off in a corner when i know the car is cabable of more with a little tweeking
thank you again

A BAD T/A

A note on tires. As most did, my T/A came with 16" Goodyear GSCs. Handling was good wet or dry. @ 20K, I went to Bridgestone Potenza RE730s. Incredible tires! It was nearly impossible to get a sound out of them, let alone controling understeer in the corners. Wet, these tires were tops. Never slid the rear in the corners, right down to 4/32 tread. That was with 32K+ miles on them.
This year, I have to do more winter driving with the T/A and, since the tires were down to the indicators, I read every test/review I could get my hands on. My final decision was to go with the Pirelli "P Zero Nero M+S". According to Tire Racks tests, they kicked Mich's "Pile-of-it" Sports M+S whatevers butt.
No, I didn't expect these tires to match the RE730s. Good thing! Now I know understeer. Same curves/corners, same approch speed, etc. Been driving this road every day for 7 months, last 2 with the Pirellis, it's like the back end lifts and wants to go around. So, I've had to adjust my entry speeds and how soon I put power on.
NOT as much fun but still faster than anyone else around here!

cudaeh

iTrader: (2)

cool ill keep that in mind thank you .
yeah im not too worried about the back end stepping around its front end "push" that sucks *** for me right now.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Actually, negative camber will make great improvements to an otherwise stock vehicle. You need the negative camber to help counter the loss of camber that occurs with body roll. As the body rolls to the outside of a corner, the upper control arm is pushed outward and tends to tilt the tire towards positive camber.

As for shocks, don't confuse stiff with performance. If stiffer was better, I'd have my Koni DA's set on "kill". The car is faster and handles much better with a medium to softer setting on the Koni shocks.

This was said in an earlier post:
If you borrow a pyrometer from someone at the track, you will find your front outside wheel will be superhot on outside, and much cooler on inside.

The reason the outside edge of your tires is hotter is due to the loss of camber during cornering that I described above. This is why you need more negative camber.

And, though they are not necessary for everyone, the gains from Koni DA's are very worth it. Trust me.

But, you still have to fix the driver first.....

Cheatin' Chad

iTrader: (3)

Herb Adams says: "to decrease corner entry understeer"
Use a more effective rear anti-sway bar. and/or
Use less front spring rate/more rear spring rate.

Do not use less front bar to cure this.This will result in an increase in roll angle inducing understeer.

ynneK

I realized this after reading books and talking to people about the subject.. and getting crappy times in Autox.. Especially with our cars, where we have lots of weight, rubber, and hp, you'll find more time if you slow the car down enough to get a good turn in, where you then can roll back on the gas and shoot out the turn... Generally, any time you lose by braking too much in the beginning, you can relatively easily make up by turning and getting back on the gas a little earlier or harder(especially in a f-bod with lots of power to spare).. Else if you go into a turn too fast, you'll be fighting the understeer thru the whole turn and get a crappy exit... which will really hurt you if that leads down a long straight.


Thinking and trying this in AutoX dramatically helped my times, and my tires..


And it let to another personal "revelation".. I was always confused when people tell me, "don't just jump right on the gas, roll onto it smoothly" Well, I first thought, well, if I can wack it on the gas and go, why would I waste time rolling into it? Then I realized, while powering out of a turn, if I roll into the gas and balance, I can get on the gas sooner than just waiting till I can floor it.. Suddenly the "smooth" concept actually really meant something!

Work with the car, not against it.