View Full Version : Toyota Convert


TT632
06-03-2009, 12:12 PM
With the Car magazines giving good reviews on some GM vehicles lately, relative to their Japanese counterparts, this touched home personally. I usually don't pay much attention to magazine reviews since the Automotive companies place ads in those same publications.

A friend of mine came to me after a recent business trip and knowing that I was a former GM Engineer had to tell me his recent experiences with his Malibu rental car. I was waiting to hear him complain as he usually does, and to tell me how happy he is with his last 3 Camry’s he had bought compared to anything American made.

We all know guys like this; He buys almost exclusively Foreign (Toyota), and makes statements about his one GM purchase in his life "a mid 80's Celebrity" as being the reason he will never buy an American car. It is a repeat of a half dozen people I work with, stating they dislike "American cars" because of a 93 Pontiac they had, or an older guy stating his disappointment in a 69 Firebird that turned him off the American vehicles forever. These are all supposable intelligent Aerospace Engineers that deal with logic all day long but can't seem to get over some preconception based on one experience years ago. I can point out my experiences with my trouble free mile on my personal GM vehicles or other coworkers that have great experiences with theirs, but to no avail. They seem to relish in the glory of their BMW, Camry, Honda or other favorite Foreign make as if it made them special. They also seem to have no problems showing disdain for any American car, even though when asked they admit to having no recent personal experience.

Back to My friend's experience with his Malibu. Like I said above; he usually loves to go on with his stories of his fantastic toyota. My mouth about hit the floor when he said his next car purchase would most likely be a Malibu based on the experience with his rental. I’ve been hearing this more often from different people over the last year. Foreign car owners coming back home:confused:. Maybe it's coincidental, but let’s hope not.

diambo4life
06-03-2009, 01:23 PM
Past experiences shape people's future decisions. It's just normal human psychology. If I went to a restaurant I have never been before and had a bad experience, I most likely would not go back there regardless of the restaurant's **EXCELLENT** reputation....if it had one I'm making the decision based on my experience. Your buddy was happy with the Malibu after having a good experience with it. It's place of manufacture was not important. That is an objective person. We have plenty of people who want others to buy American just because of the fact it's made here, which is stupid. People should buy the product they like best. If GM builds good cars (which they do) and people continue to have GOOD experiences with them, people will buy them. That is how foreign cars like Honda & Toyota gained traction in the U.S. market by making a good product and ensuring it stays that way.

PopaPork
06-03-2009, 01:27 PM
past experiences shape people's future decisions. It's just normal human psychology. If i went to a restaurant i have never been before and had a bad experience, i most likely would not go back there regardless of the restaurant's **excellent** reputation....if it had one i'm making the decision based on my experience. Your buddy was happy with the malibu after having a good experience with it. It's place of manufacture was not important. That is an objective person. We have plenty of people who want others to buy american just because of the fact it's made here, which is stupid. People should buy the product they like best. If gm builds good cars (which they do) and people continue to have good experiences with them, people will buy them. That is how foreign cars like honda & toyota gained traction in the u.s. Market by making a good product and ensuring it stays that way.




ding ding we have a winner!!

Tell him what he's won johnny!

KeyserWS6
06-03-2009, 01:52 PM
We have plenty of people who want others to buy American just because of the fact it's made here, which is stupid. People should buy the product they like best.
I agree with most of you what you've said, but I wanted to comment on the bit above.

It's not stupid to want your fellow countrymen to buy products that were built in the country you live and work in. Everytime someone buys a product that was made in America it helps our economy, and that's good for all Americans. There's quite a selection of American cars, so it's not like you're forced to buy something you won't enjoy just to buy American.

People can buy what they want, but IMO those who choose to purchase from the large selection of decent American vehicles are people who care just that much more about the future of their country than those that do not. I know that doesn't seem to really matter anymore to most people, especially since our country is going to shit, but I do hope that the words "Made in America" mean something again someday.

2002_Z28_Six_Speed
06-03-2009, 01:57 PM
If past experiences should condemn the current market then why do we use CD/DVDs when Laserdics were huge POSs?!

Things change but people like to hold on to the past.

People are hypocritical and like to bend logic to get the argument in their favor.

proporio
06-03-2009, 05:13 PM
I agree with most of you what you've said, but I wanted to comment on the bit above.

It's not stupid to want your fellow countrymen to buy products that were built in the country you live and work in. Everytime someone buys a product that was made in America it helps our economy, and that's good for all Americans. There's quite a selection of American cars, so it's not like you're forced to buy something you won't enjoy just to buy American.

People can buy what they want, but IMO those who choose to purchase from the large selection of decent American vehicles are people who care just that much more about the future of their country than those that do not. I know that doesn't seem to really matter anymore to most people, especially since our country is going to shit, but I do hope that the words "Made in America" mean something again someday.


So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.

Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:
TV
Stereo
shoes
pants
shirts
tires
computer
furniture
electronic equipment
tools

If you shop at Walmart you definately hate your country since almost 90% of goods sold there were made in China.

LS1LT1
06-03-2009, 06:01 PM
We all know guys like this; He buys almost exclusively Foreign (Toyota), and makes statements about his one GM purchase in his life "a mid 80's Celebrity" as being the reason he will never buy an American car. It is a repeat of a half dozen people I work with, stating they dislike "American cars" because of a 93 Pontiac they had, or an older guy stating his disappointment in a 69 Firebird that turned him off the American vehicles forever. These are all supposable intelligent Aerospace Engineers that deal with logic all day long but can't seem to get over some preconception based on one experience years ago. I can point out my experiences with my trouble free mile on my personal GM vehicles or other coworkers that have great experiences with theirs, but to no avail. They seem to relish in the glory of their BMW, Camry, Honda or other favorite Foreign make as if it made them special. They also seem to have no problems showing disdain for any American car, even though when asked they admit to having no recent personal experience.Yes, I know that type of person quite well. I do understand how they might've gotten to that point in their thinking/logic (or lack therof) but that still doesn't mean that it's truly rational thinking.
If it were than all Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans (among others) would also have to be avoided because there are certainly former owners of those vehicles that had bad experiences as well, especially those quite mediocre imports from the pre-1974 era.





If past experiences should condemn the current market then why do we use CD/DVDs when Laserdics were huge POSs?!
Things change but people like to hold on to the past.
People are hypocritical and like to bend logic to get the argument in their favor.Exactly.
Simply not buying a new GM/Ford/Chrysler product today because the one your cousin's neighbor's brother had back 1985 was quite poorly designed/assembled is just as asinine as me telling someone not to buy Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans because they were all rusting, oil burning pieces of sh*t back in 1969. If you're going to ridicule/boycott one brand based on their past transgressions then you've got to ridicule/boycott everyone's.
It goes both ways.

LS1LT1
06-03-2009, 06:42 PM
So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.

Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:
TV
Stereo
shoes
pants
shirts
tires
computer
furniture
electronic equipment
tools

If you shop at Walmart you definately hate your country since almost 90% of goods sold there were made in China.You bring up some great points and IMO, you're right.

I can provide no answer nor solution to these dilemmas but I must still pose this question:
If buying all of these imported nameplate products marketed and sold by corporations based in foreign nations is actually perfectly fine, acceptable and not in anyway a detriment to the way of life American citizens have enjoyed for so many years, then why is the nation in possibly the worst recession it's ever known and even potentially on the verge of another Great Depression?
Is it all simply the credit crisis, falsely inflated real estate prices and greed that's to blame?
Or has the HUGE trade imbalances/trade deficits and employment being shipped overseas in the name of competitiveness/captitalism/free enterprise contributed even a little bit to that?:huh:

On the flipside to that, the post war 1950s, 1960s and 1970s (not all that long ago) were some of the most rich and prosperous times in U.S. history...and guess what most people (I don't know, maybe 95% of the driver's licensed population) drove during that period?
GM, Ford and Chrysler (you can throw some AMCs, Hudsons and Studebakers in there as well :)) brand named vehicles, all designed, marketed, assembled and sold in the good old U.S.A. :usa:
And when the husband got home from work (because well, only he had to work, he earned enough so that mom could stay home and make sure that their children weren't smoking crack, burglarizing homes and prostituting themselves LOL) guess what kind of television he watched? RCA, Magnavox, Motorola. His dinner was cooked in a U.S. built West Bend oven after being pulled from his U.S. built General Electric refrigerator.
And if a family wanted to buy a home back then they could, those were prosperous times indeed.
Coincidence? :confused:

TT632
06-03-2009, 09:24 PM
So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.
.

Love is an emotion and the arguement you pose is brought up all of the time as a polarizing statement. It usually results in a pissing match. It is the equivalent of questioning someones patriotism based on buying American products. It gets you nowhere. The reality of the situation is it is bad for American jobs and our economy and is good for the Foreign country that is displacing our jobs.

proporio
06-03-2009, 09:30 PM
Love is an emotion and the arguement you pose is brought up all of the time as a polarizing statement. It usually results in a pissing match. It is the equivalent of questioning someones patriotism based on buying American products. It gets you nowhere. The reality of the situation is it is bad for American jobs and our economy and is good for the Foreign country.

Ok then,
why don't you fill out that list I made and tell us which products you bought that were American made. Since according to you foreign products are bad for us, you must be buying only American made products.
I await your reply to the product list in my previous post.

2002_Z28_Six_Speed
06-03-2009, 09:40 PM
So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.

Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:
TV
Stereo
shoes
pants
shirts
tires {edit you can get many tires made in usa}
computer {edit lots of design in usa}
furniture
electronic equipment {edit lots of design in usa}
tools {edit lots built in usa actually}

If you shop at Walmart you definately hate your country since almost 90% of goods sold there were made in China.


I don't understand why everyone jumps on this idea where you have to buy 100% American to promote America or just forget it.

Is it too much to admit that it is healthy to buy a certain ratio of stuff from the USA and the rest imported? And perhaps we just superseded this limit it out of interest of materialism??

Why is there this following of anarchists in self denial that utilize this faulty logic because they want want country to sink? :bang::bang:


The USA doesn't give me everything I want and a lot of this is cultural but it is a damn good place to live nevertheless. Why does everyone want the good life to be over so soon?????

TT632
06-03-2009, 10:52 PM
Ok then,
why don't you fill out that list I made and tell us which products you bought that were American made. Since according to you foreign products are bad for us, you must be buying only American made products.
I await your reply to the product list in my previous post.

Because it is a rhetorical question. Why should I bother.

LS1LT1
06-03-2009, 11:57 PM
Ok then,
why don't you fill out that list I made and tell us which products you bought that were American made. Since according to you foreign products are bad for us, you must be buying only American made products.
I await your reply to the product list in my previous post.Whoa whoa hold on there...based on what you're proposing/getting at, if a person purchases even just one Japanese/Chinese/Taiwanese manufactured home electronic product/appliance that ALL of their other attempts to 'buy American' are suddenly erased?:huh:

Based on that logic (and I use the term logic quite loosely here) if you need to have your fingernail amputated due to infection then it is no different than having your entire arm amputated. :confused:
"Mr. Proporio, we need to remove your fingernail in order to save the finger."
"Nah Doc it's ok, just take the whole arm, it's all the same to me." :lol:

I own a CD player ($73.00) made in Japan and a shirt ($27.00) made in Pakistan yet that automatically erases the $75,000.00 worth of GM vehicles in my garage? Makes me some sort of hypocrite in your eyes just because I love this great nation and try to get others to put it's interests first and not support ONLY other nation's gross national product 100%?
I have a cell phone made in Taiwan so therefor it's perfectly fine/acceptable for ALL of the products I buy from here on out to be made offshore? I just don't get that line of thinking/justification. :confused:
When there is no choice but to buy an imported product then there is no choice, other than doing without entirely (which I have actually done in some instances).
When there still is a choice (at least for now there is) as with say, motor vehicles, that's when it truly matters otherwise that goes away like the mass/domestic produced television has.

Some of this talk would have likely had members of the U.S. Armed Forces and the VFW actually pulling guns on people with accusations of treason not all that long ago. :nono:

Spoolin
06-04-2009, 03:22 AM
Dear OP,
I too drove a rental Malibu a few weeks ago and was expecting to be floored because of all the media and news about how much better it was supposed to be...and in all honesty I was quite impressed and pleased. If I were in the market for a mid-size family sedan I would opt for the Malibu too! This coming from a person who has a previous generation POS Malibu too!! :nono:

As far as to how this thread deviated...Be a patriot and stand for what this country was founded on...freedom of choice. Everybody's has a patriotic right to do and buy what they want.

95zpro
06-04-2009, 08:43 AM
GM did hit a homerun with the Malibu in terms of fit/finish, interior layout etc. unfortunately most folks wonder what took them so long before making a car of this quality?

BanditTA
06-04-2009, 09:14 AM
Ok then,
why don't you fill out that list I made and tell us which products you bought that were American made. Since according to you foreign products are bad for us, you must be buying only American made products.
I await your reply to the product list in my previous post.

I can honestly say that just near every product I buy is made in the US or US materials. My boots (100% US) Chippewas (they also maker cheaper ones which are imported), my sneakers (New Balance) which if you look around have several sneakers made in the US with some imported materials, even orange juice, I look for the ones which are 100% US. I can go on, all it takes is a few seconds to read the package. Every product I purchase I read the package to see where it is made. If i'm going to buy boots why should I spend 120 bucks on a pair of Timberlands that were made in China for 2 bucks or a pair of Chips that are 100% US right down to the leather source for the same price? Same comfort and much more durable. Everybody has the right to buy what they please, I try to make a purchase that in some way helps make my life more sustainable, even if its an American company that pays state or fed taxes. With GM closing plants they are closing a foundry here in NY, I now look at it as NY losing income, even if it was only $500,000 a year in taxes, that's gone, that affects me and my sustainability.

TT632
06-04-2009, 10:04 AM
Dear OP,
I too drove a rental Malibu a few weeks ago and was expecting to be floored because of all the media and news about how much better it was supposed to be...and in all honesty I was quite impressed and pleased. If I were in the market for a mid-size family sedan I would opt for the Malibu too! This coming from a person who has a previous generation POS Malibu too!! :nono:

As far as to how this thread deviated...Be a patriot and stand for what this country was founded on...freedom of choice. Everybody's has a patriotic right to do and buy what they want.

Having not driven a new Malibu as of yet, and having driven the previous generation I was very intrigued to hear the opinion of a committed Toyota diehard, and someone like your self who is not as biased as I am. I will admit to my American bias and go outside of myself to hear the opinion of people who should be more objective to keep myself in check.

The only problem I have with freedom of choice when you involve global players is they are not all democracies that value our same way of life. In the case of China, we are supporting their non-democratic way of life by buying their products. Of course, we are in a situation with Chinese produced goods that we no longer have a choice of an American product or a product from anywhere other than China.

KeyserWS6
06-04-2009, 10:49 AM
So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.
I'm saying that buying American is better for America, the country we live in. Can you really argue with that?

Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:
TV
Stereo
shoes
pants
shirts
tires
computer
furniture
electronic equipment
tools

If you shop at Walmart you definately hate your country since almost 90% of goods sold there were made in China.
Ad Hominem?

Nobody said anything about "hating your country"? :confused:

I'm not saying I don't ever purchase anything made outside the US, but I would say that someone who takes steps to try to buy American cares more about America than those that don't. This isn't rocket science, really.

PopaPork
06-04-2009, 12:39 PM
So your saying that people that don't buy American, care less about America?

proporio
06-04-2009, 01:28 PM
I'm saying that buying American is better for America, the country we live in. Can you really argue with that?

I'm not saying I don't ever purchase anything made outside the US, but I would say that someone who takes steps to try to buy American cares more about America than those that don't. This isn't rocket science, really.

So your saying that people that don't buy American, care less about America?

Obviously, that is what he is saying.

And as far as the list I threw together goes, virtually no electronics are manufactured in the U.S.
and almost no clothing/footware is manufactured in the U.S.

I do try to purchase goods made in the U.S. when possible, but not if they are of inferior quality to other available goods. I have never made a purchase at Walmart and don't plan on making any.

I have a degree in supply chain management and currently working on mba with a focus on supply chain management.
I spent a semester studying in HongKong, and a semester studying in Mexico City. I only give this info for background purposes, eventually, I hope to get my doctorate and teach supply chain management.

Having said this, we do live in a global economy, as much as many people want to deny it.
The world isn't like it was 50 years ago, 100 years ago, or 20 years ago.
Other countries are striving to reach what we have already achieved. The bar is being raised and I don't believe we are reaching high enough to grab it.
We are more and more becoming a country of people who believe they are "entitled" to everything. Hard work/hard labor by Americans is becoming a thing of the past. "I'm entitled to everything because I'm an American"-Isn't this why all the illegal aliens are coming here "to do jobs Americans don't want to do".

And as far as people saying that you can't use past buying experinces to judge your future purchase, of course you do. I have owned 3 Camaros, my current is a 2001. You can argue that the quality of that car is as good as the quality of a 2001 Honda or (insert another manufacturer), but I don't believe it is. If I can't use my 3 previous experinces of owning Chevys, what am I supposed to use? Of course I read reviews by auto publications, but who wouldn't use their 3 previous ownership experinces in judging a future purchase.

This discussion is best suited for another thread, too much divergence.

LS1LT1
06-04-2009, 01:59 PM
I try to make a purchase that in some way helps make my life more sustainable, even if its an American company that pays state or fed taxes. With GM closing plants they are closing a foundry here in NY, I now look at it as NY losing income, even if it was only $500,000 a year in taxes, that's gone, that affects me and my sustainability.:werd: The all important (and all too often overlooked) trickle down effect. Tax dollars are KEY to our survival, the military, police, fire departments etc are paid with those tax dollars. The military protects our citizens from foreign (and domestic) enemies and harm.
We haven't even begun to see the true fallout/widespread reverberating effects of these Chrysler/GM issues.
There might some day come a (very very bad) time when everyone in the U.S. that never considered purchasing a new domestic nameplate vehicle truly wishes they had...regardless of what principles, rights or desires they felt those purchases might've invaded.
Remember, pay me now or pay me later.

LS1LT1
06-04-2009, 02:11 PM
So your saying that people that don't buy American, care less about America?Well, no, one can't really say that either. That approach gets tossed out when a member of our dedicated military/armed forces who puts his/his life on the line for the rest of us is seen driving a Toyota and wearing Italian shoes. I wouldn't DARE try and tell that person that they care less about America than the average insurance salesman or restaurant chef who drives a Chevrolet does.
But again, if one's loyalty is to only Japanese or German vehicles and subsequently providing large sums of dollars to another nation's tax base and GDP, how do I know for sure that their loyalty for the more important things such as governement policy and/or support of our military aren't questionable as well?
Now, buying a GM/Ford/Chrysler product certainly doesn't automatically prove one's faithfulness/loyalty to the U.S. armed forces/government either but that is at least how it used to be (WWII, Korea etc) and it worked well then so maybe it's a start?

KeyserWS6
06-04-2009, 03:19 PM
So your saying that people that don't buy American, care less about America?
There are a million ways to show how much you care about this country; buying a vehicle that was made in America is just one of them. Given the nature of the forums we're currently on, let's keep this in the context of "when it comes to buying a new car."

I'm saying that if you're going to buy a new car, and you choose to test drive and ultimately buy an American car, you are helping the American economy more than someone who doesn't. I'm not talking about any other areas of their life (serving in the armed forces, flying the American flag, etc.) or that you "hate America" (which is absurd) if you don't buy American.

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, honestly. Someone just made a statment I disagreed with and wanted to comment on is all. ;)

PopaPork
06-04-2009, 03:20 PM
Are you serious????? You judge a persons loyalty to the country and other important things by the car they drive? Is that what I'm reading there? Really?

So if I drive a BMW, but sit on my local RNC committee, pettition for vet rights, and all the other jazz out there, you still question a persons loyalty.

Yea it worked 50 years ago...the world was different 50 years ago. As was said earlier, everyone else is catching up or surpassing...maybe we should have to instead of sit on our lurals.

proporio
06-04-2009, 03:55 PM
if one's loyalty is to only Japanese or German vehicles and subsequently providing large sums of dollars to another nation's tax base and GDP, how do I know for sure that their loyalty for the more important things such as governement policy and/or support of our military aren't questionable as well?
Now, buying a GM/Ford/Chrysler product certainly doesn't automatically prove one's faithfulness/loyalty to the U.S. armed forces/government either but that is at least how it used to be (WWII, Korea etc) and it worked well then so maybe it's a start?

Are you serious????? You judge a persons loyalty to the country and other important things by the car they drive? Is that what I'm reading there? Really?

So if I drive a BMW, but sit on my local RNC committee, pettition for vet rights, and all the other jazz out there, you still question a persons loyalty.

Yea it worked 50 years ago...the world was different 50 years ago. As was said earlier, everyone else is catching up or surpassing...maybe we should have to instead of sit on our lurals.

It seems pretty clear to me from what he said- "if one's loyalty is to only Japanese or German vehicles""how do I know for sure that their loyalty for the more important things such as governement policy and/or support of our military aren't questionable as well?"

---buying a Japanese or German vehicle makes your loyalty questionable---

my wife's Pathfinder makes my loyalty to this country questionable.
LS1LT1 said it, popapork

Spoolin
06-04-2009, 04:40 PM
I think you guys are confusing loyalty and Patriotism with the wrong ideal..
My loyalty isn't for this country, it's for our constitution. If the U.S. becomes a communist country my ass is moving and bringing a copy of our constitution with me to remind me of what I used to be proud of and represent.

TT632
06-04-2009, 04:52 PM
Are you serious????? You judge a persons loyalty to the country and other important things by the car they drive? Is that what I'm reading there? Really?

I really don't appreciate you and proporio hi jacking this thread. If you want to continue goading people into this arguement you can start your own thread on the topic.

LS1LT1
06-04-2009, 04:53 PM
It seems pretty clear to me from what he said- "if one's loyalty is to only Japanese or German vehicles""how do I know for sure that their loyalty for the more important things such as governement policy and/or support of our military aren't questionable as well?"

---buying a Japanese or German vehicle makes your loyalty questionable---

my wife's Pathfinder makes my loyalty to this country questionable.
LS1LT1 said it, popaporkWait, do you actually believe that buying a Pathfinder makes your loyalty less questionable?
Or simply that it shouldn't matter?

So let's say that I just sent money to the VFWs of China, Russia, Germany and Japan but gave NOTHING to the VFW or any Veteran Memorial Funds within the U.S.
Do you believe that was/is a perfectly ethical, patriotic and American thing to do?
And please don't give me the "well that's different, you're talking about people and I'm talking about a freakin' car".
It's not different, it's still about money. It's still about where tax dollars are generated/spent. It's all about support.
A good providing man cheats on his wife with other women, is he still a great husband?
A well respected crossing guard steals from her town's local library, is she still a great asset to the community?
Just curious exactly where one draws the line on loyalty and unspoken obligation.
If you buying a Pathfinder is a perfectly fine and harmless act, then I suppose that if EVERYONE in the U.S. were to buy only Pathfinders (or 4Runners, RX350s, MDXs etc.) then there should be absolutely no harm in that either, right?
There'd be no more Ford, GM or Chrysler to provide employment/tax dollars of course but I suppose we could all simply rely on Nissan, Toyota and Honda (aka: Japan Inc.) to take up the slack and put the United State's interests first before their own country's LOL.
Yes we have the freedom to buy what we want and that's how it should be.
But should there be no lines drawn on that whatsoever? If every U.S. citizen chose to purchase strictly only import brand name/offshore manufactured products at all times do you feel that they they truly should be permitted to? Even if it were to ultimately lead to our demise as an economically great/strong nation?

I thought pride, honor and at least some semblance of loyalty for ALL things that are American still meant something in this country, apparently not. :nono:

technical
06-04-2009, 04:55 PM
LS1LT1, proporio,

Can it also work on a percentage basis as well? I mean, I've owned 7 Chevy vehicles (still own the SS) and now my driver is a VW. So am I like 50% loyal or can I aggregate karma points for the last 6 cars/trucks? Can I factor in my wife's HHR too? What if I buy a BMW or Toyota like the kind that is built here in this country in a factory that employs 100's - 1000's of American workers? Shit! does that mean I'm screwed because my Camaro was built in Canada? Fuck me, am I Canadian now? I didn't know there was so much involved in buying a car that it could switch my nationality.

LS1LT1
06-04-2009, 04:56 PM
I really don't appreciate you and proporio hi jacking this thread. If you want to continue goading people into this arguement you can start your own thread on the topic.I'm guilty of that as well, my apologies.

Back to the Malibu kudos! :usa: :thumb:

technical
06-04-2009, 04:57 PM
On a separate note. My parents have a Malibu and it's a damn fine car. It doesn't surprise me at all if a foreign car lover fell in love with a new Malibu.

TT632
06-04-2009, 05:03 PM
On a separate note. My parents have a Malibu and it's a damn fine car. It doesn't surprise me at all if a foreign car lover fell in love with a new Malibu.

If they can do it with the Trucks and the Malibu they have it within GM to do well on the other lines. Getting their financial books in order are a bigger issue than vehicle quality at this point in time.

Blakbird24
06-04-2009, 05:34 PM
Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:

TV - Sony XBR (made in San Diego)
Stereo - Audiosource amps (made in Oregon), and I build my own speakers, using Dayton components (made in Dayton, Ohio).
shoes - Oakley (made in Foothill Ranch, California)
tires - Goodyear Eagle (made in Topeka, Kansas)
computer - Build my own
furniture - La-Z-Boy (made in Monroe, Michigan)
tools - Craftsman (nuff said)

Notice how every one of these brands is considered the best or one of the best in it's respective arena.

proporio
06-04-2009, 06:39 PM
LS1LT1, proporio,

Can it also work on a percentage basis as well? I mean, I've owned 7 Chevy vehicles (still own the SS) and now my driver is a VW. So am I like 50% loyal or can I aggregate karma points for the last 6 cars/trucks? Can I factor in my wife's HHR too? What if I buy a BMW or Toyota like the kind that is built here in this country in a factory that employs 100's - 1000's of American workers? Shit! does that mean I'm screwed because my Camaro was built in Canada? Fuck me, am I Canadian now? I didn't know there was so much involved in buying a car that it could switch my nationality.

LS1LT1 is the one that equates car ownerhip to loyalty to your country, he will have to field this one. I believe in a free market system. That must make me a socialist with questionable loyalties according to LS1LT1 criteria.

Irunelevens
06-04-2009, 07:43 PM
TV - Sony XBR (made in San Diego)
Stereo - Audiosource amps (made in Oregon), and I build my own speakers, using Dayton components (made in Dayton, Ohio).
shoes - Oakley (made in Foothill Ranch, California)
tires - Goodyear Eagle (made in Topeka, Kansas)
computer - Build my own
furniture - La-Z-Boy (made in Monroe, Michigan)
tools - Craftsman (nuff said)

Notice how every one of these brands is considered the best or one of the best in it's respective arena.

You are talking about where your products are ASSEMBLED, not necessarily where the parts are made. I highly doubt Sony XBR parts are made in America, same with the parts in your "build my own" computer. If so, then me buying my 2005 Frontier contributed more to the US economy than a new 4th gen F-body, because my Frontier was assembled in America. And it didn't just have foreign parts.

Blakbird24
06-04-2009, 08:00 PM
You are talking about where your products are ASSEMBLED, not necessarily where the parts are made. I highly doubt Sony XBR parts are made in America, same with the parts in your "build my own" computer. If so, then me buying my 2005 Frontier contributed more to the US economy than a new 4th gen F-body, because my Frontier was assembled in America. And it didn't just have foreign parts.

I'm not arguing that. It's impossible to fill that list with stuff made completely in America of American made parts. For example - you can't buy a new television that is assembled in America of parts built in America. That just doesn't exist. My example was to get as american as one can actually get with NEW stuff.

I certainly don't put forth the opinion that you should buy ONLY 100% american goods. But I do hold the opinion that you should be just as focused on where the product you are buying is made as you are on how much it costs. If an item that is made in america costs 2x-3x as much as one made elsewhere, I don't blame you for buying that other product. But when you buy foreign junk just to save $200 on a $2000 item, I say you are turning your back on your country.

If you are buying a car at a time when your country's automotive industry is floundering, you owe it to them to take a serious look at what they have to offer.

TT632
06-04-2009, 10:17 PM
Well, I hate that the Fast and the Furious generation has brought this thread into the usual argument that always pops up in this section. I would hope that this type of discusion would stay on the Honda Forums where it belongs.

All in all if you want to spend your money on Japanese/German/Korean cars and Chinese widgets at Walmart that is your own business. Going forward GM will continue to employ more Americans than all of the Foreign manufacturers combined. And with all of the new little cars coming from abroad, the Foreign companies will continue to errode our market to thier benefit. The Japanese and Germans will continue to keep their own workers employed in mass relative to ours as they always have.

And to the globalization champions; Once fuel gets too expensive to ship foreign goods half way around the world, you won't be able to afford them anyway.

CrabhartLS1
06-05-2009, 12:05 AM
What car company you've had luck with is just as good a reason as any to buy any modern car. It takes a lot to make someone bite the piece of corn with wires sticking out of it again.

I would never own a ford based on my experiences with a windstar and my friend's experience with replacing the engine in his f250 3 times in under 70k miles. I would never own a bmw based on the problem with their I6's ticking under high load. I would never own a toyota based on my mom's camry. However every single GM car I have driven has had rock solid reliability. That's as big a reason as any why I am still a GM fanboy. If my truck or my camaro spun a bearing I probably wouldn't have brought myself to own another GM car for a long time.

LS1LT1
06-05-2009, 12:15 AM
If you are buying a car at a time when your country's automotive industry is floundering, you owe it to them to take a serious look at what they have to offer.:werd:x 100 :nod:





The Japanese and Germans will continue to keep their own workers employed in mass relative to ours as they always have.Yes but according to many on this board it is clearly dead wrong for the citizens of those nations to actually care about buying vehicles from (as well as employing) their own.
Or is it ok for them to be nationalistic and proud and only wrong when some of us over here try and live by that code?:huh:





And to the globalization champions; Once fuel gets too expensive to ship foreign goods half way around the world, you won't be able to afford them.Nah, the devoted/dedicated import nameplates only buyer will ALWAYS find a way to obtain their ride. :D
Or they'll just build them here and circumvent the tariff/tax system (as has conveniently been heavily imposed on our exported vehicles) as they've been doing for 25 years now all while still NOT allowing Americans to freely set up businesses and build/market too many vehicles over there of course.

PopaPork
06-05-2009, 07:58 AM
So if you buy a Toyota made in the states it's ok from what your saying? You know, since the employ Americans. Good gotcha.


TT Sorry 'hijack' your thread, but
1) Free country love it or leave it (a bit childish but oh well)

2) It really infuriates me when people jump on this site and question peoples patriotism and loyalty by what car they drive when it's a fuckin free market and the world is based on capitalism and free trade (Please don't lecture me on "Oh it's not free, we are taxed more then the other guys" That wasn't the point of the statment). GM had their hay day, and they screwed up, and people left. Good for them that they are stepping up to the plate and finally making cars that people want, even though they had to sell off half their shit. Good for them. I really am thrilled that they are doing the right thing and not only making reliable cars now but cars that actually look decent. I honestly would look at purchasing a new car from Ford if I was in the market, GM, Chrysler not so much due to their financial state.

Plus the fact that these people have no clue who anyone is that they are judging besides a fucking screen name on some fucking internet forum. They have no clue who that person is, what they do for a living, who they donate their time or money to, what charities are close to their hearts, who their family’s work for, nothing. They are ignorant and just plain assholes if they think because of the car that might be in my/their garage makes them any less of an American or love our country any less.

3) I think it's just as nuts to think that people don’t use past experiences, and other peoples reviews of a product when they purchase cars or cloths, or whatever else they made need. Everyone keeps saying ‘History repeats it’s self’ when they talk about the economy and what’s going on around us now, and they are right, so if someone bought a 92 Pontiac and had it blow up in 45,000 miles, why would they run out to buy another one when they are more expensive now and when their neighbors Honda ran to 200,000 with oil changes? It doesn’t matter that people on here say “Oh my truck lasted me 300,000 with nothing wrong ”Maybe if you were that guys neighbor that had a horrible experience he would have bought a truck instead of the Honda. Past buying experiences are huge plain and simple and till the world/nation/the guy next door all have Malibu’s or whatever in their drive way, people are still gonna look at the import guys. Your buddy is a perfect example his last experience has changed his mind about Chevy. I wonder what would have happened though if he got in one of those butt ugly Luminas from the mid 90s? Or one of those hideous Monte Carlos from early 2000’s Think he would be head over heals still? Maybe GM should give everyone a pass for a day to drive one of their cars around all day long to prove to everyone that they are back at the top?


My dad had 89 suburban when I was a kid. It was worked 454, ¾ ton, 4:10 rear, it was made for towing mountains, and the thing sucked balls it couldn’t tow a travel trailer up a hill with out shitting the bed. It was in the dealer every other week with problems, from no power, computer problems water pumps you name it had it. Finally he got tired of nickling and diming it, he bought a Dodge Diesel instead, and since day one has had no problems. He will never buy a Chevy again because of that truck. Look at that, his past experience played a roll in the type of car is going to get…who would have thought. He will probably buy 10 more cars in his life time, and none will be a GM name plate. Past experience.



And finally….”Well, I hate that the Fast and the Furious generation has brought this thread into the usual argument that always pops up in this section. I would hope that this type of discussion would stay on the Honda Forums where it belongs.” What the fuck does that mean? Are implying just because I and a few others don’t jump on the “Oh holy GM, how great you are, You have done nothing wrong ever, I will always blindly buy you, no matter what” I’m a Fast and the Furious Generation???? Just for the record, I have only own 2 cars in my life, one 89 Camaro, and on 02 Camaro and my fiancé has only own two jeeps. So please if you think I’m a fan boy, go take a long walk of a very short pier.

technical
06-05-2009, 09:52 AM
...That must make me a socialist with questionable loyalties according to LS1LT1 criteria.

You dirty pinko!! :lol:

KeyserWS6
06-05-2009, 11:32 AM
2) It really infuriates me when people jump on this site and question peoples patriotism and loyalty by what car they drive when it's a fuckin free market and the world is based on capitalism and free trade (Please don't lecture me on "Oh it's not free, we are taxed more then the other guys" That wasn't the point of the statment). GM had their hay day, and they screwed up, and people left. Good for them that they are stepping up to the plate and finally making cars that people want, even though they had to sell off half their shit. Good for them. I really am thrilled that they are doing the right thing and not only making reliable cars now but cars that actually look decent. I honestly would look at purchasing a new car from Ford if I was in the market, GM, Chrysler not so much due to their financial state.
It infuriates me when people read one or two sentences of a post and automatically assume they know what the person is trying to say and that their patriotism is in question. Why are you so defensive about your patriotism? :confused:


Plus the fact that these people have no clue who anyone is that they are judging besides a fucking screen name on some fucking internet forum. They have no clue who that person is, what they do for a living, who they donate their time or money to, what charities are close to their hearts, who their family’s work for, nothing. They are ignorant and just plain assholes if they think because of the car that might be in my/their garage makes them any less of an American or love our country any less.
Pot, meet kettle.

Since we don't know you, we can't "judge" you. But you can call us ignorant and assholes since you know us *so* well, right? :eyes:

If you think buying a car made in another country helps our country just as much as buying a car that was made in America, who's the ignorant one again?


3) I think it's just as nuts to think that people don’t use past experiences, and other peoples reviews of a product when they purchase cars or cloths, or whatever else they made need. Everyone keeps saying ‘History repeats it’s self’ when they talk about the economy and what’s going on around us now, and they are right, so if someone bought a 92 Pontiac and had it blow up in 45,000 miles, why would they run out to buy another one when they are more expensive now and when their neighbors Honda ran to 200,000 with oil changes? It doesn’t matter that people on here say “Oh my truck lasted me 300,000 with nothing wrong ”Maybe if you were that guys neighbor that had a horrible experience he would have bought a truck instead of the Honda. Past buying experiences are huge plain and simple and till the world/nation/the guy next door all have Malibu’s or whatever in their drive way, people are still gonna look at the import guys. Your buddy is a perfect example his last experience has changed his mind about Chevy. I wonder what would have happened though if he got in one of those butt ugly Luminas from the mid 90s? Or one of those hideous Monte Carlos from early 2000’s Think he would be head over heals still? Maybe GM should give everyone a pass for a day to drive one of their cars around all day long to prove to everyone that they are back at the top?

My dad had 89 suburban when I was a kid. It was worked 454, ¾ ton, 4:10 rear, it was made for towing mountains, and the thing sucked balls it couldn’t tow a travel trailer up a hill with out shitting the bed. It was in the dealer every other week with problems, from no power, computer problems water pumps you name it had it. Finally he got tired of nickling and diming it, he bought a Dodge Diesel instead, and since day one has had no problems. He will never buy a Chevy again because of that truck. Look at that, his past experience played a roll in the type of car is going to get…who would have thought. He will probably buy 10 more cars in his life time, and none will be a GM name plate. Past experience.

And finally….”Well, I hate that the Fast and the Furious generation has brought this thread into the usual argument that always pops up in this section. I would hope that this type of discussion would stay on the Honda Forums where it belongs.” What the fuck does that mean? Are implying just because I and a few others don’t jump on the “Oh holy GM, how great you are, You have done nothing wrong ever, I will always blindly buy you, no matter what” I’m a Fast and the Furious Generation???? Just for the record, I have only own 2 cars in my life, one 89 Camaro, and on 02 Camaro and my fiancé has only own two jeeps. So please if you think I’m a fan boy, go take a long walk of a very short pier.
I nearly fell asleep while reading that rambling mess, but I hope you feel more patriotic now.

This is an extremely simple concept and yet it's somehow eluding you, so let me try to simplify it even more:
When you buy an American car it helps America.

Get it?

Nobody is saying you can't buy or drive a foreign car in America.
Nobody is saying you hate your country.
Nobody is questioning your patriotism.

Do you help your country and its economy more when you buy American? Yes.
/tangentDiscussion

PopaPork
06-05-2009, 12:11 PM
You're right no one questioned ones patriotism, or loyalty to a country. No one has associated buying a foreign car makes one less American. Sorry for wasting your time.

Blakbird24
06-05-2009, 12:46 PM
You're right no one questioned ones patriotism, or loyalty to a country. No one has associated buying a foreign car makes one less American. Sorry for wasting your time.

The point is that you are taking the argument to the extreme side. There may be a handful of guys here that DO think that if you don't buy only american cars all the time that you are being unpatriotic. They are crazy. What we (by "we" i mean the sensible ones on this side) are saying is that you should be giving your country's automakers a chance whether or not you had good experiences with them in the past. One bad experience with a 1986 chevy does not justify buying only Toyotas now.

I've had numerous bad experiences with almost all the imports i've driven or worked on, but i'd never completely rule out any of their automaker's current offerings based only on those experiences. I'd do some research, see how their vehicles stack up TODAY, then go look at what catches my interest, and buy what I like the most. I will say that American cars do carry more weight in my decisions - i.e. if I find two cars I like equally at equal prices, I will take the American one for that reason.

PopaPork
06-05-2009, 01:17 PM
I not saying people should give up on a car manuf. just because of the bad experiences they've had, my point was just that experiences shape peoples buying habits plain and simple.

TT632
06-05-2009, 04:15 PM
And finally….”Well, I hate that the Fast and the Furious generation has brought this thread into the usual argument that always pops up in this section. I would hope that this type of discussion would stay on the Honda Forums where it belongs.” What the fuck does that mean? Are implying just because I and a few others don’t jump on the “Oh holy GM, how great you are, You have done nothing wrong ever, I will always blindly buy you, no matter what” I’m a Fast and the Furious Generation???? Just for the record, I have only own 2 cars in my life, one 89 Camaro, and on 02 Camaro and my fiancé has only own two jeeps. So please if you think I’m a fan boy, go take a long walk of a very short pier.

Hey; I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to Irunelevens, but if the Street Glows fit Dom, wear it!

Sorry, couldn't help myself:eyes:

Irunelevens
06-05-2009, 06:22 PM
Hey; I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to Irunelevens, but if the Street Glows fit Dom, wear it!

Sorry, couldn't help myself:eyes:

Referring to me in what context? Please fill me in, oh wise one :eyes:

fspeedster
06-10-2009, 04:09 AM
Are you serious????? You judge a persons loyalty to the country and other important things by the car they drive? Is that what I'm reading there? Really?

So if I drive a BMW, but sit on my local RNC committee, pettition for vet rights, and all the other jazz out there, you still question a persons loyalty.

Yea it worked 50 years ago...the world was different 50 years ago. As was said earlier, everyone else is catching up or surpassing...maybe we should have to instead of sit on our lurals.

It seems pretty clear to me from what he said- "if one's loyalty is to only Japanese or German vehicles""how do I know for sure that their loyalty for the more important things such as governement policy and/or support of our military aren't questionable as well?"

---buying a Japanese or German vehicle makes your loyalty questionable---

my wife's Pathfinder makes my loyalty to this country questionable.
LS1LT1 said it, popapork

Both of you remind me of Bitchy ex girlfriends. Girls, it's very simple...the more American that you buy (no matter what it is), the better it is for America. As simple as that. Quit instigating shit!

Irunelevens
06-10-2009, 06:03 AM
Both of you remind me of Bitchy ex girlfriends. Girls, it's very simple...the more American that you buy (no matter what it is), the better it is for America. As simple as that. Quit instigating shit!

And the better America's shit is, the more likely people are to buy it. As simple as that.

PopaPork
06-10-2009, 07:33 AM
I'm sorry that we remind you that your ex-girlfriends had more common sense then you.

Blakbird24
06-10-2009, 05:11 PM
I'm sorry that we remind you that your ex-girlfriends had more common sense then you.

Maybe, but he's still got you here. What he said IS correct. The best you can do to support your country is make it a habit to buy american. Whether or not the stuff is made 100% here, whether or not the company has factories overseas, whether or not the majority of employees are here or elsewhere...you will do more good for the country buying from an american company, plain and simple. Arguing otherwise is futile.

I'm not getting into the "buying foreign goods is un-american" argument because there's alot of grey there.

PopaPork
06-11-2009, 07:22 AM
I'm not saying that not buying American good is good. My rant is the fact that people equate buying a toyota as unAmerican. And that there are real reasons why people are buying the other 3's cars, it's not just, "Oh I'm gonna go buy a car today and it just HAS to be a Honda."

You're right there is a ton of grey area that comes with that can of worms.

Blakbird24
06-11-2009, 05:31 PM
And that there are real reasons why people are buying the other 3's cars, it's not just, "Oh I'm gonna go buy a car today and it just HAS to be a Honda.

Seriously, do you really think that there are "real" reasons? C'mon now...people are idiots, plain and simple. The reason that people eat up these bland toyotas and hondas is that they've been brainwashed for the last 20 years by those companies marketing departments to believe that they can do no wrong. VW is the perfect example of this...do you realize how many people out there still think a VW is a super-reliable high-quality car? Despite the fact that they've been dead-last or near to dead-last in quality and reliability studies since the late 90's?

People are gullible, plain and simple.

LS1LT1
06-12-2009, 03:31 AM
Maybe, but he's still got you here. What he said IS correct. The best you can do to support your country is make it a habit to buy american. Whether or not the stuff is made 100% here, whether or not the company has factories overseas, whether or not the majority of employees are here or elsewhere...you will do more good for the country buying from an american company, plain and simple. Arguing otherwise is futile.Seriously, do you really think that there are "real" reasons? C'mon now...people are idiots, plain and simple. The reason that people eat up these bland toyotas and hondas is that they've been brainwashed for the last 20 years by those companies marketing departments to believe that they can do no wrong. VW is the perfect example of this...do you realize how many people out there still think a VW is a super-reliable high-quality car? Despite the fact that they've been dead-last or near to dead-last in quality and reliability studies since the late 90's?

People are gullible, plain and simple.Agreed.

PopaPork
06-12-2009, 07:29 AM
Seriously, do you really think that there are "real" reasons? C'mon now...people are idiots, plain and simple. The reason that people eat up these bland toyotas and hondas is that they've been brainwashed for the last 20 years by those companies marketing departments to believe that they can do no wrong. VW is the perfect example of this...do you realize how many people out there still think a VW is a super-reliable high-quality car? Despite the fact that they've been dead-last or near to dead-last in quality and reliability studies since the late 90's?

People are gullible, plain and simple.

I'm not saying people aren't gullible.
But don't you think that maybe the sub par quality (sub par is probably not the right word) of 90s Gm vechiles might have played some part in people jumping ship? And good for the marketing wizards who were able to see that flaw and go after it.

Blakbird24
06-12-2009, 11:30 AM
I'm not saying people aren't gullible.
But don't you think that maybe the sub par quality (sub par is probably not the right word) of 90s Gm vechiles might have played some part in people jumping ship? And good for the marketing wizards who were able to see that flaw and go after it.

My point is that the ACTUAL quality has nothing to do with it. It's the PERCEIVED quality that has been pounded into the heads of the general public by import manufacturers, and the lack of that kind of marketing by domestic manufacturers that has caused the phenomenon you speak of.

We don't need to argue about the ACTUAL quality of any vehicle, as it has no bearing on what the general public buys. To understand this, we need to study what marketing ploys have worked and which ones haven't.

ThisBlood147
06-12-2009, 08:36 PM
Seriously, do you really think that there are "real" reasons? C'mon now...people are idiots, plain and simple. The reason that people eat up these bland toyotas and hondas is that they've been brainwashed for the last 20 years by those companies marketing departments to believe that they can do no wrong. VW is the perfect example of this...do you realize how many people out there still think a VW is a super-reliable high-quality car? Despite the fact that they've been dead-last or near to dead-last in quality and reliability studies since the late 90's?

People are gullible, plain and simple.

Quoted for truth. This is the number one reason America's big 3 automakers can't seem to make any headway in sales despite making huge, sweeping strides in the quality of product they produce. It's absolutely meaningless if the general public worldwide stills uses a 1980's measuring stick by which to judge the big 3's carmaking prowess. Seriously, I know ppl who have owned one American badged vehicle from the 70's or 80's and honestly think that the product on this side of the pond has not improved much since. I'm not one for bashing ppl for buying a foreign brand car, but ppl who continue to support import companies from behind this flap of bullshit ignorance really need to be dragged out onto the lawn and shot for treason.:devil:

kain01
06-12-2009, 09:19 PM
Patriotism aside GM really has a hit with the new Malibu, I've heard it is turning a lot of Toyotaholic's over to the dark side. Hopefully GM will have as much success with the Camaro and the Cruze when it comes out.

Oh and yes buying American does help America, buying Japanese helps Japan, and buying German helps Germany. Korean cars break down a lot which is why you get the buy one get one free deal.

proporio
06-13-2009, 03:36 PM
TV - Sony XBR (made in San Diego)
Stereo - Audiosource amps (made in Oregon), and I build my own speakers, using Dayton components (made in Dayton, Ohio).
shoes - Oakley (made in Foothill Ranch, California)
tires - Goodyear Eagle (made in Topeka, Kansas)
computer - Build my own
furniture - La-Z-Boy (made in Monroe, Michigan)
tools - Craftsman (nuff said)

Notice how every one of these brands is considered the best or one of the best in it's respective arena.

Sorry to stir this up but-

*The Sony facility was closed down
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/apr/29/1b29sony212232-340-sony-workers-will-lose-sd-jobs/

*Craftsman brand hand tools, made for SEARS by Danaher Tool Group, are now a mix of USA-made and imported.
*(Craftsman power tools are all imported).
here is the link about Craftsman tools
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html

*Do you believe that all the components in the computer you "build" were
made in the USA other than the processor?

*Goodyear -many many recalls going on of Goodyear tires-
for your safety and the safety of your family please check and make sure
that your tires are not part of any of the recalls.

Blakbird24
06-13-2009, 07:29 PM
Sorry to stir this up but-

Then here's an idea. DON'T. What's the point of this anyway? It's a bunch of useless info.


This...
*The Sony facility was closed down
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/apr/29/1b29sony212232-340-sony-workers-will-lose-sd-jobs/
...doesn't change the fact that mine and many other's TVs were made there.

This...
*Craftsman brand hand tools, made for SEARS by Danaher Tool Group, are now a mix of USA-made and imported.
*(Craftsman power tools are all imported).
here is the link about Craftsman tools
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html
...doesn't change the fact that the tools that I have WERE made in the USA.

This...
*Do you believe that all the components in the computer you "build" were
made in the USA other than the processor?
...is a very dumb statement to make since you clearly don't know what you are talking about. I do take great care to try to build my computers with american made parts wherever possible. It's not possible to completely build an all american computer in alot of cases, but that's not under my control.

This...
*Goodyear -many many recalls going on of Goodyear tires-
for your safety and the safety of your family please check and make sure
that your tires are not part of any of the recalls.
...is really dumb. Care to list these recalls? "many" means different things to different people.

In short, if you just want to pick a fight, stop wasting our time and go read up on american products. Do something beneficial with your life instead of wasting the time of others who already have.