Gen 5 Racing Tech - 2ss l99 vehicle weighed.




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ss1129
07-22-2009, 08:01 AM
I weighed my car on a certified CAT scale. Nobody in the car, 1/2 tank of gas exactly, as the car comes from the factory. No ground effects, standard 20" wheels, no rs package (not that it matters).

Front axle weight was 2020 lbs
rear axle was 1840 lbs

for the combined weight of 3860 lbs.

So with my Brock Lesnarish towering 5'7 and Yokozunish weight of 170 my cars weight adds up to 4030 lbs.


fly pantera
07-22-2009, 08:44 AM
wow.its ashame gm didnt make these 300 lbs lighter

SS02
07-22-2009, 09:28 PM
^^^ Still running High 12s :)


OrangeChevyII
07-22-2009, 09:35 PM
My stick car weighs 3985 with me.

427C5
07-22-2009, 10:38 PM
Thanks for posting your weight.:angel:


The Camaro is a pig because GM built it on the G8 sedan chassis (Zeta). I don't know why anyone would buy a "sport coupe":eyes: that weighs close to 4,000 instead of a true sedan (G8).
But, the Camaro does look good.:angel:

Dark SS
07-22-2009, 10:42 PM
Thanks for posting your weight.:angel:


The Camaro is a pig because GM built it on the G8 sedan chassis (Zeta). I don't know why anyone would buy a "sport coupe":eyes: that weighs close to 4,000 instead of a true sedan (G8).
But, the Camaro does look good.:angel:

Because the true sedan weighs over 4000# and sedans are for parents.

98LS1Formula
07-22-2009, 11:13 PM
NY state lists my 2SS L99 at 3853 on the title

Johny GTO
07-23-2009, 01:32 AM
They should have hacked a section out of this chassis to shrink it and cut weight, and made the camaro out of that. How hard is it to cut a section out, or just shrink the size of the chassis? You aren re-tooling, redesigning a new chassis, etc. It shouldnt cost GM anything to do this, so why not?

427C5
07-23-2009, 10:54 AM
Because the true sedan weighs over 4000# and sedans are for parents.



I hate to break it to you brother, you ARE driving a sedan.
The new Camaro has all of the negatives of the G8 (weight) with none of the G8's positives (utility).

There is NO DOUBT that the Camaro is a great looking car and much better looking than the G8. But, if I wanted a great looking coupe, I'd buy a TRUE coupe that is light and built on a true coupe platform. That's why I bought a C6 and not a Camaro.

Dark SS
07-23-2009, 11:45 AM
I hate to break it to you but the C6 is not a true coupe. It's a sportscar. There is no backseat and is much more compact and constrained. It's not in any coupe class. In todays market you can't find a coupe that weighs much less than the Camaro and through most of history coupe's and sedan's have been built on the same frame. Again the Camaro is 200# lighter than the sedan and has a cheaper price tag, I'm not seeing the disadvantage.

427C5
07-23-2009, 11:56 AM
the Camaro is 200# lighter than the sedan and has a cheaper price tag, I'm not seeing the disadvantage.

Where are you getting your numbers from ??????
I believe the weight difference is negligible.


As far as price, I'm seeing new G8 GT's selling for around $25k and making LS3 type power with a tune.

Johny GTO
07-23-2009, 12:16 PM
Where are you getting your numbers from ??????
I believe the weight difference is negligible.


As far as price, I'm seeing new G8 GT's selling for around $25k and making LS3 type power with a tune.

I agree with your power remark. The G8 GT is just a detuned LS3.

liqidvenom
07-23-2009, 12:44 PM
They should have hacked a section out of this chassis to shrink it and cut weight, and made the camaro out of that. How hard is it to cut a section out, or just shrink the size of the chassis? You aren re-tooling, redesigning a new chassis, etc. It shouldnt cost GM anything to do this, so why not?

i get it you are joking...

Johny GTO
07-23-2009, 01:07 PM
i get it you are joking...

lol. yes.

Still, with this style camaro coming in so heavy, i almost wish they would do something like this. Friggin chop out the whole back seat area, and weld the front and back together again. Shorten the car by about 2 feet.
that should knock of a couple hundred pounds.

427C5
07-23-2009, 01:13 PM
lol. yes.

Still, with this style camaro coming in so heavy, i almost wish they would do something like this. Friggin chop out the whole back seat area, and weld the front and back together again. Shorten the car by about 2 feet.
that should knock of a couple hundred pounds.

They already did this.
It's called a Corvette.:)

Frankly, I can't understand why anyone would buy a new Camaro over a C6, G8, or a C5.

Rubrignitz
07-23-2009, 01:13 PM
Every automobile manufactured these days is going to weigh more due to safety ratings. The S197 has 5-star front and rear and I assume the new Camaro does as well. How much does the IRS weigh? Yank that puppy out.

Johny GTO
07-23-2009, 01:26 PM
They already did this.
It's called a Corvette.:)

Frankly, I can't understand why anyone would buy a new Camaro over a C6, G8, or a C5.

LOL. "BAMM!! Take that, Johny!!" hehe. Argg, you got me. Good point, i wasnt thinking.


I have a question to ask, perhaps someone can help me here. PEople site "safety standards and equipment" as the reason why our modern day muscle cars weigh so much more then the 60's and 70's muscle cars.
Muscle cars then weighed around 3300lbs or so, correct? Now the norm seems to be da,mn near 4000lbs. Safety equipment?? What do they make air bags and seat belts out of, lead?? The cars back then were made of solid steel. If you had a 69 camaro run head first into a 2010 camaro, i would put money on the '69 ripping the new camaro in half.

what exactly have they added to jump the weight up by 700-1000lbs???

Rubrignitz
07-23-2009, 01:32 PM
That's an easy one.. POWER EVERYTHING. Take away the power steering, power windows, door locks, radio, amplifiers, speakers, bells, whistles, et etc etc etc.

The classics (well, now I'd have to classify them antiques) were just seats, body and drivetrain.

Along with that, more bracing materials are now used to keep everything from rattling, creaking, flexing in a unibody.

2002_Z28_Six_Speed
07-23-2009, 01:57 PM
LOL. "BAMM!! Take that, Johny!!" hehe. Argg, you got me. Good point, i wasnt thinking.


I have a question to ask, perhaps someone can help me here. PEople site "safety standards and equipment" as the reason why our modern day muscle cars weigh so much more then the 60's and 70's muscle cars.
Muscle cars then weighed around 3300lbs or so, correct? Now the norm seems to be da,mn near 4000lbs. Safety equipment?? What do they make air bags and seat belts out of, lead?? The cars back then were made of solid steel. If you had a 69 camaro run head first into a 2010 camaro, i would put money on the '69 ripping the new camaro in half.

what exactly have they added to jump the weight up by 700-1000lbs???

I find that to be a misconception.

Many of the cars people hot rodded or pimped in the 60's and 70's weighted about the same as today with only some of the car weighting in 2800 to 3300 lbs. Those cars that weighted in less were stripped or had simple suspensions with minimal features. Unibody and not chassis....

1967 Chevelle was about 3800 lbs.
Chevelle wagon (quite popular actually for family use) cleared 4200....4400
Biscayne could weight in the 3800....this car was a cheap full siz and could be ordered with a big engine


74 Monte Carlo was 4000 lbs, awesome car that can fit a freaking jet engine in there
70 Carlo was still 3800 ish.

I mean yea the Camaro and Nova had less weight but still. Those cars had crappy suspension and were cheap. A stripped Nova has a weight that would make you smile but have fun putting the big block in there. It does fit but its not fun.... for me anways.

So they weren't magic numbers that a racer would droll over like say 2400 lbs or something. But yes the crappier cars had weights that drag racers rave over now. :drive:

Dark SS
07-23-2009, 02:44 PM
Where are you getting your numbers from ??????
I believe the weight difference is negligible.


As far as price, I'm seeing new G8 GT's selling for around $25k and making LS3 type power with a tune.

Here's the weight of the G8
http://www.leftlanenews.com/pontiac-g8-gxp.html
The OP said his Camaro weighed 3860 so simple math
4050-3860=190lbs.

Now please show me where a G8 GT is making 364rwhp with a tune because that's what my car put down stock.

I agree with your power remark. The G8 GT is just a detuned LS3.
No it's not, it's an LS2 with AFM.

Frankly, I can't understand why anyone would buy a new Camaro over a C6, G8, or a C5.
Well that's simple the C6 is 50K, the G8 is a family car and costs more for the same power train and the C5 is old technology. Not to mention not everyone wants a vette, can you even wrap your head around that?

427C5
07-23-2009, 02:52 PM
Of course every car varies slightly, but Develish34 is correct. With a tune only, a G8 GT will see around 330 RWHP / 340 RWTQ, but you'll notice huge gains from the trans cal with reduced torque management. With a CAI like a Rotofab and a tune you'll see around 345 RWHP / 360 RWTQ.

-Rick

My G8 was 3995 lbs without me in it. I don't remember how much gas was in it, but it's a GT with the performance package and no sunroof.

I referred to the 2 posts above


Well that's simple the C6 is 50K, the G8 is a family car and costs more for the same power train and the C5 is old technology. Not to mention not everyone wants a vette, can you even wrap your head around that?

Wrap your head around this:
The new Camaro is a fat sedan pretending to be a sports coupe.
The G8 is a better daily driver with better utility and the Corvette is a better performer....and looker.

Family car?
That family car will be door to door with you for less money, with the same mods.

Pro Stock John
07-23-2009, 02:55 PM
A 1967 Z/28 is supposedly 3700 lbs stock based on the links I looked at, that would be a fair comparo. A 1969 Chevelle or or a 1970 Monte Carlo is a different car, not a pony car.

I personally don't understand why a C6 is 3400, and a 5th gen is 3900 but that's just me.

I find that to be a misconception.

Many of the cars people hot rodded or pimped in the 60's and 70's weighted about the same as today with only some of the car weighting in 2800 to 3300 lbs. Those cars that weighted in less were stripped or had simple suspensions with minimal features. Unibody and not chassis....

1967 Chevelle was about 3800 lbs.
Chevelle wagon (quite popular actually for family use) cleared 4200....4400
Biscayne could weight in the 3800....this car was a cheap full siz and could be ordered with a big engine


74 Monte Carlo was 4000 lbs, awesome car that can fit a freaking jet engine in there
70 Carlo was still 3800 ish.

I mean yea the Camaro and Nova had less weight but still. Those cars had crappy suspension and were cheap. A stripped Nova has a weight that would make you smile but have fun putting the big block in there. It does fit but its not fun.... for me anways.

So they weren't magic numbers that a racer would droll over like say 2400 lbs or something. But yes the crappier cars had weights that drag racers rave over now. :drive:

Dark SS
07-23-2009, 03:10 PM
I referred to the 2 posts above



Wrap your head around this:
The new Camaro is a fat sedan pretending to be a sports coupe.
The G8 is a better daily driver with better utility and the Corvette is a better performer....and looker.

Family car?
That family car will be door to door with you for less money, with the same mods.

If I was looking for a daily driver I wouldn't get either car let alone a vette. What you posted is not a G8 GT with a tune. That made 330rwhp. That's pretty far off from the 377 I got out of mine so your door to door theaory is shot to hell. If you want to talk about modding cars then the wanna be sports car will run circles around a brand new Z06 for almost half the cost. Take a look at what LMR did to the gen5 with 6K in upgrades.
Why don't you get that other people like different things. Your ignorant, I don't want a 4-door family car and IMO vette's are for old men and guys with short peters. Seems like you need to stand up for a minute and let some blood get to your brain. A brand new SS is faster than a G8 GT period, by a decent margin.

BSmiff
07-23-2009, 03:16 PM
The new camaro is a pig that runs. Simply put.

Johny GTO
07-23-2009, 03:50 PM
1. Now please show me where a G8 GT is making 364rwhp with a tune because that's what my car put down stock.


2. No it's not, it's an LS2 with AFM.


3. Well that's simple the C6 is 50K, the G8 is a family car and costs more for the same power train and the C5 is old technology. Not to mention not everyone wants a vette, can you even wrap your head around that?

Ok, first off i am not talking to you in a confrontational or "know it all" manner or tone. SO calm down a bit, you seem as if you feel insulted or something. I just want to learn something here, and correct and misconceptions i may have.

1. The G8 has 3 models, correct? There is the entry level V-6, there is the GT which is the v-8 (forget the name of the motor) which is essentially a detuned LS3 with Active Fuel management (and does it have the cam phaser as well?), and then there is the GXP which is the LS3 V-8. Is that correct??

2. I didnt know they were using the LS2 in the G8. I thought the LS2 was pretty much only used in trucks now, but called either the lq4 or lq9. I thought motors for the 3 levels of g8's were... v-6, then detuned LS3 with AFM (called something else) like in the automatic Camaro SS, and then the LS3 in the GXP. Please correct me if i am wrong. I am not claiming to know alot about the G8. I like the car alot, but i dont own one nor have i read up on the details in a while.

3. this one has nothing to do with me, but i will field it.I think what 427 C5 is saying is that he feels there really isnt a need or niche for the camaro. If you want something with balls (big motor), good performance, and is a practical Daily driver with room to seat 4 people the G8 is probably a better fit than the camaro. It is more practical, with dam near identical performance due to sharing the power train, and the chasiss\frame.
If you want big balls\motor, performance, and are not concerned with practicality or seating more then you and a single passenger, the vette is a better fit than the camaro. It performs far better, is lighter, faster, etc.

I think 427 C5 feels is that the camaro is a jack of all trades, master of none. that a person would be better served deciding which direction they want to take, what need they want to fill, and then pick either the G8 or the vette accordingly. The Camaro can fill both rolls, but is only "good" in each category and not "awesome" in a desired roll like the more specialized car.

if i am misrepresenting what you were saying, 427 C5, i am sorry.

Johny GTO
07-23-2009, 03:59 PM
If you want to talk about modding cars then the wanna be sports car will run circles around a brand new Z06 for almost half the cost. Take a look at what LMR did to the gen5 with 6K in upgrades.

not to call you a liar or say you are wrong, but i cant see that happening. I would imagine you would have to put ALOT of money into a camaro for it to run circles around a ZO6.

Camaro SS price: 38k
vette ZO6 price: 69k

the vette with a pair of headers and cam puts down damn near 600rwhp. Not to mention the handling, light weight, etc. To go as fast as a 580rwhp vette in a straight line, a camaro would need probably close to 700rwhp.that alot of balls, and alot of money in mods. Then we come to the twisty track, which i cant see the camaro keeping up with a ZO6 no matter how much money or mods are put into it. no matter what you do to the camaro's suspension and such, it will still be much heavier, higher off the ground, narrower, etc.

if i am wrong, please tell me. I would love to know how you propose to make a camaro smoke a ZO6.

Dark SS
07-23-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm not being confrontational at all. You are misdirected I guess. The G8 GT comes with a 6.0 litre with AFM, not a 6.2 which the LS3 is. It makes 376HP compared to the A6 Camaro's 400HP so they do not share the same motor. The L76 I believe its' called is not the L99 used in the Camaro and is more related to the LS2. I don't get any compparison between to two especially when the G8 will no longer be available. The G8 is a sedan, albiet a fast sedan it is made to move people. The Camaro is a sports coupe and is directed at a compeletly different market. Seems like both of you guys are wrong again because the Camaro is selling quite well, better than the G8 ever did and the owners seem to love these cars. Because you don't see a need for it doesn't make others wrong.

Next up where do you get 38K for an SS? They start at 31K and for the slayer package from LMR that costs roughly 6K they will run down a C6 Z06 for 32K less give or take a couple grand.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/2010-camaro/1125418-late-model-racecrafts-street-stalker-package-makes-over-500rwhp-naturally-aspirtated.html
Seems pretty good to me.

427C5
07-23-2009, 04:30 PM
The new camaro is a pig that runs. Simply put.

I agree with that. :)
Although I'm disappointed about the weight, the new Camaro still destroys the Mustang and the Challenger.



Your ignorant.
so your door to door theaory is shot to hell.
I don't want a 4-door family car and IMO vette's are for old men and guys with short peters.
Who's ignorant?


It appears you don't even realize the Camaro and the G8 are built on the same Zeta platform.
A modded 5th Gen competing with a C6 ZO6 that weighs 800lb less?
C'mon man. Give it a break.

I'm not a family man, nor do I plan to be.
But, If I have to deal with a 3,850lb coupe, I think an extra 150lbs in exchange for a TON of passenger and cargo space is a no-brainer. Especially, when you can buy a new G8 GT for less money.
As far as you perpetuating stereotypes, it's not worth responding to.

SOM02WS6
07-23-2009, 04:36 PM
Next up where do you get 38K for an SS? They start at 31K and for the slayer package from LMR that costs roughly 6K they will run down a C6 Z06 for 32K less give or take a couple grand.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/2010-camaro/1125418-late-model-racecrafts-street-stalker-package-makes-over-500rwhp-naturally-aspirtated.html
Seems pretty good to me.[/QUOTE]

Your not going to be running down a C6 Zo6 with 500 RWHP!! There best run was 505 and one was 460 so avg to say 480ish in a car that weighs 3800 plus pounds. The stock Z06's are putting down 430's or so stock and with a simple tune they were in the 470's and the car weighs 3200 something and is more aerodynamic.

Dark SS
07-23-2009, 04:42 PM
It is a close race for 32K less. I'm not the one bashing anyone's cars here. I happen to like the G8 if I wanted a DD and the Z06 is a great car that I con't afford. I simply was comparing the modded SS to a stock Z06 and if you get 505rwhp compared to 420rwhp even with 600-700 more lbs. the Camaro should edge it out. I'm not trying to piss anyone off I just find it ignorant that somebody wants to bash a car that people own and enjoy because they don't like it. It's a great performer at a very reasonable price. The Camaro isn't meant to compete with the vette and their are a lot of people that prefer the Camaro over the vette, does that make them wrong?

Cole Train
07-23-2009, 04:46 PM
They already did this.
It's called a Corvette.:)

Frankly, I can't understand why anyone would buy a new Camaro over a C6, G8, or a C5.

i agree unless they make an LSA Z28. My C5 will be gone in a heartbeat. As for the, mod a 5th Gen to run rings around a C6Z, you've lost your mind. The 5th Gen may be able to hang down low with lots of mods but once the speed increases that Z will pull like a freight train. They are meant for higher speeds and they do it well;) A C5/C6, once they hunker down and get movin' they like to pull. The 5th Gen's are like pushing a brick, to square for higher speeds. Not saying they won't do it but not as easily as a Vette.

427C5
07-23-2009, 05:10 PM
a lot of people that prefer the camaro over the vette, does that make them wrong?

...yes

Johny GTO
07-23-2009, 05:23 PM
I'm not being confrontational at all. You are misdirected I guess.

Ok, maybe confrontational was not the right word. How bout this... you seem to be under the impression that 427 C5 and myself have the same opinion on the cars. you also seem to think that i am putting down the camaro, and you seem to think i am debating you somehow. See the below quotes for references to what i am talking about...


Seems like both of you guys are wrong again because the Camaro is selling quite well, better than the G8 ever did and the owners seem to love these cars. Because you don't see a need for it doesn't make others wrong.


How am i wrong? i never said any negative about the camaro. I love the camaro!! it is not my opinion that it is useless, that one would be better either picking a G8 or a vette, etc. I was merely relaying what 427C5 seemed to be saying, because it seemed as if some people didnt quite get it. I myself love the camaro, and am debating making it my next acquisition. i love the way they look, and really want to test drive one. I see myself in a new camaro with a twin screw blower (or a TVS 2300 if no twin screw option). YEAAHHHH baby!!!



Next up where do you get 38K for an SS? They start at 31K and for the slayer package from LMR that costs roughly 6K they will run down a C6 Z06 for 32K less give or take a couple grand.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/2010-camaro/1125418-late-model-racecrafts-street-stalker-package-makes-over-500rwhp-naturally-aspirtated.html
Seems pretty good to me.

i was not quoting $38k for the set in stone price. As i recall, the last time i looked at camaro pricing, the one i was looking at was i believe $37 or so nicely equipped. Why are you acting as if $38k is so insane, when in the very next sentence you admit that they START at $31k?? Is it hard to imagine that adding a bunch of options could knock it up 6 or 7 grand???

As for assuming the slayer package will run down a Zo6, where do u get that from? did they post times of that package in the quarter? i dont recall seeing it, and if i did i dont recall. What were the times?
As far as comparing performance of a camaro and Zo6... if you mod up the camaro, yes it will be a contender in a straight line. however, if you also turn around and mod up the ZO6, it wont be much of a race anymore. As far as the squiggly roads go, i wouldnt even bother.

Dont take that as a knock against the camaro, though. A modded ZO6 is a world class performance car. there are very few vehicles in the world that can keep up with it that are under $150k. The camaro is a friggin monster for the price you pay. I like them alot.

JD_AMG
07-23-2009, 05:30 PM
Well that's simple the C6 is 50K, the G8 is a family car and costs more for the same power train and the C5 is old technology. Not to mention not everyone wants a vette, can you even wrap your head around that?

A C5 is old technology??? Its the same technology that went into the C6, the C6 is basically a modded C5...

It is a close race for 32K less. I'm not the one bashing anyone's cars here. I happen to like the G8 if I wanted a DD and the Z06 is a great car that I con't afford. I simply was comparing the modded SS to a stock Z06 and if you get 505rwhp compared to 420rwhp even with 600-700 more lbs. the Camaro should edge it out. I'm not trying to piss anyone off I just find it ignorant that somebody wants to bash a car that people own and enjoy because they don't like it. It's a great performer at a very reasonable price. The Camaro isn't meant to compete with the vette and their are a lot of people that prefer the Camaro over the vette, does that make them wrong?
Why are you trying to compare strait line racing? The Corvette is a purpose made road racer, not some boring drag car. That extra money is going toward the superb chassis, brakes and suspension. If you are going to compare the cars do so on a real track (a road course).

ss1129
07-23-2009, 08:01 PM
Just because they are built off the same platform doesnt mean they share the same dimensions.

The pontiac GXP is way more than a 1SS.

427C5
07-23-2009, 10:46 PM
Just because they are built off the same platform doesnt mean they share the same dimensions.
The pontiac GXP is way more than a 1SS.

Do you know the difference in those dimensions?


I've been in both.
The Camaro is huge and has ZERO room inside.
The G8 is huge and has a gigantic interior and trunk.

They are both huge and fat.
At least one delivers some utility for all it's weight.

ss1129
07-24-2009, 12:18 AM
Camaro has 6 inches less length. Its 3 inches shorter and has a 2 inch shorter wheelbase.

The zeta platform isnt like an fbody platform. Its designed to accommodtate many styles and size vehicles.

As for them being huge and fat...well thats what you get when you want to meet 5 star saftey standards and be a muscle car. Tough titty. Dont like it, dont buy it.

Consider this though. In 2002 SS Camaros were going for $31k. Well today you can get a base SS for the same price thats build quality is 500 times that of the last f-body plus a rock solid motor and a rock solid trans....with a better ride...better styling better saftey (1078 air bags) (subjective) better stereo...ect ect. Better performance, better brakes....shall I go on?

For the same price as 8 years ago. Hmmm I cant tell if thats a deal or not. Oh well I guess I will frown every time I look in my garage and see a fat pig that replaced my 4th gen. To each his own.

kain01
07-24-2009, 04:06 PM
Ok, first off i am not talking to you in a confrontational or "know it all" manner or tone. SO calm down a bit, you seem as if you feel insulted or something. I just want to learn something here, and correct and misconceptions i may have.

1. The G8 has 3 models, correct? There is the entry level V-6, there is the GT which is the v-8 (forget the name of the motor) which is essentially a detuned LS3 with Active Fuel management (and does it have the cam phaser as well?), and then there is the GXP which is the LS3 V-8. Is that correct??

2. I didnt know they were using the LS2 in the G8. I thought the LS2 was pretty much only used in trucks now, but called either the lq4 or lq9. I thought motors for the 3 levels of g8's were... v-6, then detuned LS3 with AFM (called something else) like in the automatic Camaro SS, and then the LS3 in the GXP. Please correct me if i am wrong. I am not claiming to know alot about the G8. I like the car alot, but i dont own one nor have i read up on the details in a while.

3. this one has nothing to do with me, but i will field it.I think what 427 C5 is saying is that he feels there really isnt a need or niche for the camaro. If you want something with balls (big motor), good performance, and is a practical Daily driver with room to seat 4 people the G8 is probably a better fit than the camaro. It is more practical, with dam near identical performance due to sharing the power train, and the chasiss\frame.
If you want big balls\motor, performance, and are not concerned with practicality or seating more then you and a single passenger, the vette is a better fit than the camaro. It performs far better, is lighter, faster, etc.

I think 427 C5 feels is that the camaro is a jack of all trades, master of none. that a person would be better served deciding which direction they want to take, what need they want to fill, and then pick either the G8 or the vette accordingly. The Camaro can fill both rolls, but is only "good" in each category and not "awesome" in a desired roll like the more specialized car.

if i am misrepresenting what you were saying, 427 C5, i am sorry.


Just correctional information. The Pontiac G8 comes with three motors. The V6 is the Cadillac V6 (which is the Oldsmobile "Aurora" V6 from the Aurora), the GT uses the Vortec 6.0l that was fitted with AFM from the Silverado/Escalade/Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon/whatever other re brand there is of this truck. Yup truck engine in the G8. Holden has used it in the Commodore for years, never got the LS2 in Australia that I know of. The GXP model does get a detuned LS3.

Rubrignitz
07-24-2009, 06:07 PM
I can't wait to see where this goes over the next several years. I traded an 02' SS in on the 07' mustang and have been trying hand over fist to make it better than my SS M6 with full exhaust (verified in my mod list below lol). It already had better interior, ride and I won't say "suspension" because my SS had a different feel to it. You sat MUCH lower in the car and the visceral feel of the road was much more exaggerated in the f-body. The S197 was looser, more sedan-like riding and I had to spend a lot of money on suspension to get it riding/handling like the WS6 suspension in my buddies TA which was considerably better than my SS and the yardstick in my mind. Now it surpasses anything I've owned in handling/ride.

The new camaro sounds a lot like the new S197 mustang when I was looking at "muscle cars" to upgrade to in early 07'. A safe, heavier car with one hell of a powertrain (better than the S197's) big brakes which require large wheels (and large wheel expense) and a new suspension layout which may take years to optimize.

I like it! And I'm going to purchase one once I see the kinks worked out. I have a friend with a cammed LS2 C6 (see rrtx2007 vids on youtube) and have driven them but there is no way I would drive one every day. I need back seats and a reasonable ride height. I lowered the stang with HR race springs and tore my chin spoiler up so bad in a few days, then swapped to the Steeda comps..perfect.

Rubrignitz
07-24-2009, 06:19 PM
Concerning "pushing a brick". There's a guy that competes in the 200mph class of the Silver State Classic with a body-kit S197. THAT's pushing a brick!!!

http://www.silverstateclassic.com/

i agree unless they make an LSA Z28. My C5 will be gone in a heartbeat. As for the, mod a 5th Gen to run rings around a C6Z, you've lost your mind. The 5th Gen may be able to hang down low with lots of mods but once the speed increases that Z will pull like a freight train. They are meant for higher speeds and they do it well;) A C5/C6, once they hunker down and get movin' they like to pull. The 5th Gen's are like pushing a brick, to square for higher speeds. Not saying they won't do it but not as easily as a Vette.

OKcruising
07-24-2009, 06:33 PM
In defense of Dark SS,

Different strokes for different folks. The Camaro is a muscle car.

If hauling ass in the 1/4 is your deal, or doing burnouts in a big couple lights your fire, then a Camaro with H/C/I/E will do a niiiiiice job of that!

Just as some folks like to do highway pulls where a Z06 in h/c/i/e will do a badass job at that.

It comes down to jack of all, master of none, or specialization. Damn, kinda feels like how to pick a character to play Diablo 2 or something haha. Point of the matter is you get what makes you happy!

... :secret2:but C5's ain't that tooo old of technology! :)

Rubrignitz
07-24-2009, 06:43 PM
You guys are going to see... as I'm seeing as an S197 mustang owner lol that has been through the same shuck/jive and knows what the meaning of "refined" is. Don't think you're going to compete with an LS3 corvette in the new camaro (at least in a straight line). Not going to happen unless you S/C, which is a VIABLE option and what I plan to do if I purchase one.

A S/C'd LS3 in the new Camaro chassis will KILL everything in distance other than a non-sc'd Z06 of the same year. I'm OK with that.

It's cheaper than H/C/I and the most viable option.

Dark SS
07-24-2009, 07:38 PM
The drag coeffecient isn't as high as you would think on the 5th gen. So you're not pushing a brick.
A 5th gen is 0.35 while a 4th gen is 0.33, a C6 Z06 is 0.31 from what I found.

I never really liked the C5 vette after I drove a C6, I just think of them as cheap and inferior. The C6 is all around a much better car.

SparkyJJO
07-24-2009, 07:39 PM
...yes

/facepalm

There is nothing wrong with liking the Camaro over the Corvette :rolleyes:
It is called PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

2002_Z28_Six_Speed
07-24-2009, 07:42 PM
The drag coeffecient isn't as high as you would think on the 5th gen. So you're not pushing a brick.
A 5th gen is 0.35 while a 4th gen is 0.33, a C6 Z06 is 0.31 from what I found.

I never really liked the C5 vette after I drove a C6, I just think of them as cheap and inferior. The C6 is all around a much better car.

oh ok but what is the CDa??? CDa is all that really matters. You can have .8 but if the frontal area is nothign then there is little wind resistance.

I doubt the frontal areas are the same.

Buff
07-24-2009, 10:57 PM
Its a shame that these cars weigh so heavy. My old stock 01 SS with a automatic would run rings around a L99.

ss1129
07-25-2009, 11:30 AM
In defense of Dark SS,

Different strokes for different folks. The Camaro is a muscle car.

If hauling ass in the 1/4 is your deal, or doing burnouts in a big couple lights your fire, then a Camaro with H/C/I/E will do a niiiiiice job of that!

Just as some folks like to do highway pulls where a Z06 in h/c/i/e will do a badass job at that.

It comes down to jack of all, master of none, or specialization. Damn, kinda feels like how to pick a character to play Diablo 2 or something haha. Point of the matter is you get what makes you happy!

... :secret2:but C5's ain't that tooo old of technology! :)

The 2010 Camaro actually beats a standard c5 vette around the nurburgring.

2010 Camaro 8:20
C5 vette 8:40

C5 z06 7:56


Its not like this car is a giant turd that cant stop or turn.

427C5
07-25-2009, 11:39 AM
The 2010 Camaro actually beats a standard c5 vette around the nurburgring.

2010 Camaro 8:20
C5 vette 8:40
C5 z06 7:56
Its not like this car is a giant turd that cant stop or turn.
I don't care if you got those numbers from Bob Lutz himself.
No C5 I have ever driven will be taken by the new Camaro I've driven.
It is NOT going to happen.

ss1129
07-25-2009, 11:41 AM
I don't care if you got those numbers from Bob Lutz himself.
No C5 I have ever driven will be taken by the new Camaro I've driven.
It is NOT going to happen.

Your right, because GM woud lie about its numbers.


Have you driven the new Camaro, or are you just gussing on how you think it will handle?


Oh and the g8 GXP clocked an 8:30 lap time.

A stock c5 isnt the be all end all car. Sorry.

427C5
07-25-2009, 11:46 AM
/facepalm
There is nothing wrong with liking the Camaro over the Corvette :rolleyes:
It is called PERSONAL PREFERENCE.
I am a CAR GUY. I am NOT the general public who simply judges a car by the body panels, the color, and MAYBE the HP advertised. I have built multiple Camaros, I've bought multiple new Corvettes, and other GM products. So, I can say whatever the hell I want about the new Camaro.

If you have a problem with a car guy criticizing the new Camaro on it's technical specs, then you are in the wrong forum. If you are some "waxer" that is going to buy a car simply because GM slapped the Camaro badge on it, then you don't care what anyone says about your precious Camaro.

As far as I'm concerned, the 2010 Camaro has an INCREDIBLE drivetrain.
But, just because GM slapped a badge on it that I LOVE as much the rest of you,
it's still a FAT coupe, built on a sedan chassis, that offers no sedan utility.
I will buy a Camaro sedan (G8/Zeta), but not a Camaro coupe.

427C5
07-25-2009, 11:56 AM
Your right, because GM woud lie about its numbers.Have you driven the new Camaro, or are you just gussing on how you think it will handle?
Oh and the g8 GXP clocked an 8:30 lap time.
A stock c5 isnt the be all end all car. Sorry.

First, let me thank you again for weighing your new Camaro and posting the results for all of us.
That's how this thread got started in the first place and I'm going to try and not respond anymore.
Understandably, you can't be objective in this discussion. That's cool. I don't blame you.
I've made my points and even answered your questions above already if you reread my posts.

Have a nice day and enjoy your beautiful car and it's great drivetrain.:angel:

ss1129
07-25-2009, 11:58 AM
I am a CAR GUY. I am NOT the general public who simply judges a car by the body panels, the color, and MAYBE the HP advertised.

But you first said this

I don't care if you got those numbers from Bob Lutz himself.
No C5 I have ever driven will be taken by the new Camaro I've driven.
It is NOT going to happen.

So your a car guy...big fucken deal. Fact is you talked all this shit on the new camaro...yet its still a better track car than a base c5 corvette. Its an indisputable fact. Im sorry it hurts your feelings that you were wrong.




If you have a problem with a car guy criticizing the new Camaro on it's technical specs, then you are in the wrong forum. If you are some "waxer" that is going to buy a car simply because GM slapped the Camaro badge on it, then you don't care what anyone says about your precious Camaro.

I dont have a problem with actual criticizism. You just made shit up though.

Yes its heavy. Yes its big (it meets 2012 saftey standards and got 5 star front crash test ratings)

You then said it was built on a sedan platform....not true. You then said it was just a 2 door version of the g8....not true.

Again its built on the Zeta II platform. GMS rwd...not sedan platform. Then I showed you the dimensional differences between the car. You dont care. Your going to believe what you want. Even when proof shows you to be wrong.


Either way, I have owned many Camaros, I've bought multiple new Corvettes, and other GM products. So, I can say whatever the hell I want about the new Camaro.
It's a FAT coupe, built on a sedan chassis that offers no sedan utility, but it has an INCREDIBLE drivetrain and GM has slapped a badge on it that I LOVE as much the rest of you do.

Good for you. Im proud of you.

Again its not built on a sedan chassis. I dont know where you get that from.

Anyways even if it was build on a sedan chassis...both the Camaro and the G8 GXP still beat a base c5 on the worlds most famous track.

Fact check it if you dont believe me. All of it. have fun.

427C5
07-25-2009, 12:11 PM
Ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy.

ss1129
07-25-2009, 12:19 PM
Bro, you can call it ugly, big whatever you want. But I posted cold hard facts for you and you choose not to believe them..why cause "your a car guy"?

Johny GTO
07-25-2009, 01:14 PM
Well, i am going to throw my hat into the ring and give my opinion on the camaro...

LOOKS
I really like the way it looks. I may even love it, but i havent seen it up close long enough to make that big of a commitment to it. It is very unique looking, easily standing out on the road. It looks mean, and i like that. It doesnt look very big. I am not sure of the dimensions of it, but it may not look big because it really isnt, or it may not look big due to the visual effect the car's lines give you. I know that looking at the camaro on the street, it looks a good bit smaller than the Challengers i have seen on the street. Those cars "look" big, and probably are.

PERFORMANCE
I am glad they gave the car some balls, even the V-6 is over 300hp. It makes me LOL that the V-6 puts out nearly the same horse powah as a mustang GT (at least for the moment, until the GT's motor changes). I am also glad they have upgraded the automatic transmissions from A4's to A6's. Better gas mileage, better performance, it's a win-win situation. I really wish they would release a Z-28 model with the supercharged motor, similar to the GT500 that ford produces related to the mustang.

THE DEBATE: Vette, Camaro, or G8
As far as which is better....vette, camaro, G8.... i think it is an illogical comparison. The G8 is a sedan. It has room to seat 4 people comfortably, can be used as a family car, has a big trunk, etc. For all intents and purposes, lets sub in another 4 door sedan for the G8. How about we use the honda accord, or maybe the mercury milan. If one of those was the sedan in question, as opposed to the G8, this wouldnt even be a debate. It would be obvious that the sedan is made for a totally different purpose. What blurs the lines is that in our case the G8 has a powerful V-8 motor and accompanying available, as well as a performance suspension and great brakes. These assets blur the lines between the sedan role and the "muscle car" role.
However, the fact still remains that the G8 is a sedan. It has a large interior, large trunk, and carries numerous passengers. Its just kick ass that it has the power and hauls ass like it does.
The Camaro is a "muscle car". Muscle car is defined as "a variety of high performance automobiles. At its most widely accepted the term refers to American 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s equipped with large, powerful V8s and sold at an affordable price for street use and drag racing, formally and informally."
That is a muscle car... a mid sized car that seats 2 in front comfortably and can sit 2 in the back (though not comfortably) and has a big powerful motor stuffed into it. Historically, these cars went fast in a straight line and were more affordable than sports-cars like the vette. It is only recently (the 4th and 5th gen camaro\birds) that "muscle cars" started morphing into semi-sports cars, their handling drastically improved as compared to former muscle cars. This has caused a blurring of the line between "muscle cars" and "sports cars" in terms of performance. Again, it has worked towards our benefit as car lovers. No longer do you have to choose between "relatively inexpensive, fast in a straight line, more than 2 seats, poor handling" and "expensive, fast in a straight line and handles great, seats 2". What has essentially happened is that the muscle cars are no longer built with little regard for handling. They are no longer a sedan with 2 doors removed and a big motor dropped in. They are purpose built to have the power of a sports car, more room than a sport car yet not as big as the sedans, and also have handling and suspension abilities superior to anything on the road other than the sportscars.

In my opinion, its not a matter of the Camaro being a jack of all trades, master of none. The camaro is a muscle car, a medium sized body with a big, powerful motor stuffed into it. However, due to better and more advanced design, materials, and technology, the muscle cars can also handle extremely well now. In fact, i would bet the camaro most likely out handles the sports cars of yesteryear. Think of it like a bonus... if you like and want a muscle car, you get a muscle car. However, you also get awesome handling as a bonus.

JD_AMG
07-25-2009, 03:08 PM
The 2010 Camaro actually beats a standard c5 vette around the nurburgring.

2010 Camaro 8:20
C5 vette 8:40

C5 z06 7:56

Its not like this car is a giant turd that cant stop or turn.

Just like in the other thread:
C5 vette 8:40
2010 Camaro 8:20
C5 vette manual: 8:18
C5 z06 7:56

liqidvenom
07-25-2009, 05:19 PM
Your right, because GM woud lie about its numbers.


Have you driven the new Camaro, or are you just gussing on how you think it will handle?


Oh and the g8 GXP clocked an 8:30 lap time.

A stock c5 isnt the be all end all car. Sorry.

this....

liqidvenom
07-25-2009, 05:21 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the 2010 Camaro has an INCREDIBLE drivetrain.
But, just because GM slapped a badge on it that I LOVE as much the rest of you,
it's still a FAT coupe, built on a sedan chassis, that offers no sedan utility.
I will buy a Camaro sedan (G8/Zeta), but not a Camaro coupe.

So a decent trunk, and seating for 4 isnt utility? thats better then alot of other 4 seater coupes.

Chadder
07-25-2009, 05:24 PM
As I stated in another thread:

Considering the 8:18 lap time of the corvette vs 8:20 of the Camaro, average speed for the c5 would be around 93.25mph while the camaro averages about 92.88mph. That's well within any margin of error. The difference between 8:18 and 8:20 is .4%... a difference that most statisticians would conclude as equal.

liqidvenom
07-25-2009, 05:26 PM
Well, i am going to throw my hat into the ring and give my opinion on the camaro...

LOOKS
I really like the way it looks. I may even love it, but i havent seen it up close long enough to make that big of a commitment to it. It is very unique looking, easily standing out on the road. It looks mean, and i like that. It doesnt look very big. I am not sure of the dimensions of it, but it may not look big because it really isnt, or it may not look big due to the visual effect the car's lines give you. I know that looking at the camaro on the street, it looks a good bit smaller than the Challengers i have seen on the street. Those cars "look" big, and probably are.

PERFORMANCE
I am glad they gave the car some balls, even the V-6 is over 300hp. It makes me LOL that the V-6 puts out nearly the same horse powah as a mustang GT (at least for the moment, until the GT's motor changes). I am also glad they have upgraded the automatic transmissions from A4's to A6's. Better gas mileage, better performance, it's a win-win situation. I really wish they would release a Z-28 model with the supercharged motor, similar to the GT500 that ford produces related to the mustang.

THE DEBATE: Vette, Camaro, or G8
As far as which is better....vette, camaro, G8.... i think it is an illogical comparison. The G8 is a sedan. It has room to seat 4 people comfortably, can be used as a family car, has a big trunk, etc. For all intents and purposes, lets sub in another 4 door sedan for the G8. How about we use the honda accord, or maybe the mercury milan. If one of those was the sedan in question, as opposed to the G8, this wouldnt even be a debate. It would be obvious that the sedan is made for a totally different purpose. What blurs the lines is that in our case the G8 has a powerful V-8 motor and accompanying available, as well as a performance suspension and great brakes. These assets blur the lines between the sedan role and the "muscle car" role.
However, the fact still remains that the G8 is a sedan. It has a large interior, large trunk, and carries numerous passengers. Its just kick ass that it has the power and hauls ass like it does.
The Camaro is a "muscle car". Muscle car is defined as "a variety of high performance automobiles. At its most widely accepted the term refers to American 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s equipped with large, powerful V8s and sold at an affordable price for street use and drag racing, formally and informally."
That is a muscle car... a mid sized car that seats 2 in front comfortably and can sit 2 in the back (though not comfortably) and has a big powerful motor stuffed into it. Historically, these cars went fast in a straight line and were more affordable than sports-cars like the vette. It is only recently (the 4th and 5th gen camaro\birds) that "muscle cars" started morphing into semi-sports cars, their handling drastically improved as compared to former muscle cars. This has caused a blurring of the line between "muscle cars" and "sports cars" in terms of performance. Again, it has worked towards our benefit as car lovers. No longer do you have to choose between "relatively inexpensive, fast in a straight line, more than 2 seats, poor handling" and "expensive, fast in a straight line and handles great, seats 2". What has essentially happened is that the muscle cars are no longer built with little regard for handling. They are no longer a sedan with 2 doors removed and a big motor dropped in. They are purpose built to have the power of a sports car, more room than a sport car yet not as big as the sedans, and also have handling and suspension abilities superior to anything on the road other than the sportscars.

In my opinion, its not a matter of the Camaro being a jack of all trades, master of none. The camaro is a muscle car, a medium sized body with a big, powerful motor stuffed into it. However, due to better and more advanced design, materials, and technology, the muscle cars can also handle extremely well now. In fact, i would bet the camaro most likely out handles the sports cars of yesteryear. Think of it like a bonus... if you like and want a muscle car, you get a muscle car. However, you also get awesome handling as a bonus.

This...

427C5
07-25-2009, 06:48 PM
So a decent trunk, and seating for 4 isnt utility? thats better then alot of other 4 seater coupes.
Have you been in the new Camaro?
The interior space is tiny, the back seat is pathetic, and the trunk is really small. I don't see the utility.

The difference between 8:18 and 8:20 is .4%... a difference that most statisticians would conclude as equal.
Have you ever driven a 4,000lb rear wheel drive car at 9/10's?
It's not as much fun as you might think.

liqidvenom
07-25-2009, 08:13 PM
Have you been in the new Camaro?
The interior space is tiny, the back seat is pathetic, and the trunk is really small. I don't see the utility.


Have you ever driven a 4,000lb rear wheel drive car at 9/10's?
It's not as much fun as you might think.

i have many times.... i fail to see the issue, a 3 series coupe has just as tiny of a back imho yet no one calls that pathetic.

Blackened2k
07-25-2009, 10:16 PM
I won't dive too deep into this discussion but I have to agree for the sheer size of the new Camaro when you're on the inside its fairly tiny and hard to see out of. Not uncomfortable by any means but damn the car is huge and it doesn't translate into the interior.

427C5
07-26-2009, 07:01 AM
i have many times.... i fail to see the issue, a 3 series coupe has just as tiny of a back imho yet no one calls that pathetic.
I think the 3 series coupe is pretty stupid as well because it has the same weight penalty as the 3 series sedan, but lacks the sedan's rear doors and interior space.

rayhawk
07-26-2009, 09:14 AM
I think the 3 series coupe is pretty stupid as well because it has the same weight penalty as the 3 series sedan, but lacks the sedan's rear doors and interior space.

So if BMW can't justify the price of a dedicated chassis for the 3 series coupe, even at the price premium they command, don't you think GM needs to see several years of consistent sales before they will be able to justify a Camaro only chassis?

427C5
07-26-2009, 12:36 PM
So if BMW can't justify the price of a dedicated chassis for the 3 series coupe, even at the price premium they command, don't you think GM needs to see several years of consistent sales before they will be able to justify a Camaro only chassis?

GM already has a dedicated sports chassis in the Corvette.
The point I'm making is that it's stupid to only offer the Zeta as a coupe in America.

ss1129
07-26-2009, 12:39 PM
GM already has a dedicated sports chassis in the Corvette.
The point I'm making is that it's stupid to only offer the Zeta as a coupe in America.

Hows it stupid. They were importing G8s. The Camaro is built in Canada and is selling like hotcakes...unlike the g8. Besides rumor is the g8 will become the Caprice.

427C5
07-26-2009, 12:40 PM
i have many times.... i fail to see the issue, a 3 series coupe has just as tiny of a back imho yet no one calls that pathetic.
It's not pathetic because BMW offers a CHOICE between a sedan OR a coupe for the 3 series. In addition, the back seat of the 3 series is decent and makes the Camaro look absolutely pathetic.

Personally, I don't respect people that choose looks over either performance or utility.
But, that's just me.

liqidvenom
07-26-2009, 01:02 PM
It's not pathetic because BMW offers a CHOICE between a sedan OR a coupe for the 3 series. In addition, the back seat of the 3 series is decent and makes the Camaro look absolutely pathetic.

Personally, I don't respect people that choose looks over either performance or utility.
But, that's just me.

if you want a chevy, want a v8 that can run 12's, want rwd and a manual but have to carry more then 2 people at a time what other vehicle can you buy from chevy that has more performance and utility yet hits those criteria?

Chadder
07-26-2009, 01:02 PM
Have you ever driven a 4,000lb rear wheel drive car at 9/10's?
It's not as much fun as you might think.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware we were arguing about which car was more fun to drive, just that they roughly equal in performance :eyes:

99corvette
07-26-2009, 01:55 PM
the new camaro reminds me of an 05-06 GTO. about the same power and weight

427C5
07-26-2009, 04:08 PM
if you want a chevy, want a v8 that can run 12's, want rwd and a manual but have to carry more then 2 people at a time what other vehicle can you buy from chevy that has more performance and utility yet hits those criteria?
The Pontiac G8.
And if GM get's their head out of their ass, a Zeta sedan from Chevy.
Who cares what they call it.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware we were arguing about which car was more fun to drive, just that they roughly equal in performance :eyes:
If you think the new Camaro can run with a C5, especially a slightly modded one, you're delusional.

ss1129
07-26-2009, 04:36 PM
Personally, I don't respect people that choose looks over either performance or utility.
But, that's just me.

How has nobody killed you yet? I bet motherfuckers hate your ass in real life.


If you think the new Camaro can run with a C5, especially a slightly modded one, you're delusional.

So again either your illiterate or just plain stupid because we already linked to the fact that the Camaro does indeed run with C5 vettes. Imagaine a slightly modded one.

427C5
07-26-2009, 04:46 PM
So again either your illiterate or just plain stupid because we already linked to the fact that the Camaro does indeed run with C5 vettes. Imagaine a slightly modded one.
Auto 101. Power to weight ratio.
In addition, you've obviously haven't spend any time on, or even near, a road course. If you had, you'd understand the affect of weight on tires and brakes.
Are you really that ignorant?

How has nobody killed you yet? I bet motherfuckers hate your ass in real life.
I'm at Carlisle twice a year and Atco/E-town frequently.
Let me know if you want to make arrangements.

ss1129
07-26-2009, 04:50 PM
Auto 101. Power to weight ratio.
Not to mention, the affect of weight on tires and brakes.
Are you really that ignorant?


I'm at Carlisle twice a year and Atco/E-town frequently.
Let me know if you want to make arrangements.

Im just saying bro, you come across as such a douchebag online. If you act like that in real life I bet you spend a lot of time alone....or looking for glory holes on craigslist.

427C5
07-26-2009, 04:53 PM
Im just saying bro, you come across as such a douchebag online. If you act like that in real life I bet you spend a lot of time alone....or looking for glory holes on craigslist.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm hetero only.

Douche bag or not, I'm sorry you can't accept the facts that I post.

Chadder
07-26-2009, 04:55 PM
If you think the new Camaro can run with a C5, especially a slightly modded one, you're delusional.

You keep saying that, but the numbers aren't adding up in your favor. Maybe you should just pull your head out of your ass and realize the new Camaro has made leaps and bounds in handling ability since the 4th gen.


Edit: just stop feeding the troll. He'll go run away eventually.

427C5
07-26-2009, 04:59 PM
You keep saying that, but the numbers aren't adding up in your favor. Maybe you should just pull your head out of your ass and realize the new Camaro has made leaps and bounds in handling ability since the 4th gen.
Edit: just stop feeding the troll. He'll go run away eventually.
I agree. The 5th gen handles INCREDIBLY for a 4,000lb car.
But, it's still a 4,000lb car.

Why are you guys defending the Camaro so tough and arguing everything I'm posting? You act like I'm some damn ricer. I LOVE GM and have built multiple F-bodies. I own a C6 now. I'm just stating facts; like them or not.

1998Z28LOADED
07-26-2009, 05:11 PM
^^^ Still running High 12s :)

not stock

Chadder
07-26-2009, 05:16 PM
I'm just stating facts; like them or not.

Honestly the only fact you've stated is that the Camaro is heavy. I've been stating facts that you can't even look through.


Considering the 8:18 lap time of the corvette vs 8:20 of the Camaro, average speed for the c5 would be around 93.25mph while the camaro averages about 92.88mph. That's well within any margin of error. The difference between 8:18 and 8:20 is .4%... a difference that most statisticians would conclude as equal.


Base stock c5's run the quarter in low 13's on average with the occasional high 12 second pass. The 2010 Camaro has already posted a 12.7x pass in hot ass weather.

Maybe you would like to carry on this conversation of 'facts'.

I agree. The 5th gen handles INCREDIBLY for a 4,000lb car.
But, it's still a 4,000lb car.

Indeed. It's also around 80rwhp on top. Apparently, track times show the additional power of the LS3 makes up for the weight disadvantage at least going around the 'ring. If it goes around the ring well, it will go around pretty much anything but Tsukuba (retarded track) well.

Edit: the real difference in weight between a C5 coupe and a Camaro SS m6 is 614lbs. A mazda miata weighs much (~1000lbs) less than a Corvette, but the power advantage of the 'Vette ensues victory. Same application here.

Dark SS
07-26-2009, 06:43 PM
It's not pathetic because BMW offers a CHOICE between a sedan OR a coupe for the 3 series. In addition, the back seat of the 3 series is decent and makes the Camaro look absolutely pathetic.

Personally, I don't respect people that choose looks over either performance or utility.
But, that's just me.

You make everyone else dumber with you're posts. Who the hell in the history of the world chooses to buy a Camaro for utility now or in the past. The Camaro has always been a car with a horrible back seat and good performance that comes in 2nd to the vette. The 5th gen. camaro performs and looks great but has almost zero utility, just like almost every other generation of the car.

I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt because the C5 vette isn't the super car it was in the early 2000's. The LS1 Camaro put the beat down on the C4 just like the 5th gen. runs down the C5. It's a little thing called technology advancement. I have driven both the C5 and the 5th gen and it's pretty obvious that the 5th gen is a better performer.


Why are you guys defending the Camaro so tough and arguing everything I'm posting? You act like I'm some damn ricer. I LOVE GM and have built multiple F-bodies. I own a C6 now. I'm just stating facts; like them or not.

Everything you post is completely inaccurate and based on personal opinions. If you made any sense what so ever maybe at least one person would agree with you. You're defending your car, which I can respect, but you are absolutely off base and mainly delusional.

406 Q-ship
07-27-2009, 03:50 PM
I find that to be a misconception.

Many of the cars people hot rodded or pimped in the 60's and 70's weighted about the same as today with only some of the car weighting in 2800 to 3300 lbs. Those cars that weighted in less were stripped or had simple suspensions with minimal features. Unibody and not chassis....

1967 Chevelle was about 3800 lbs.
Chevelle wagon (quite popular actually for family use) cleared 4200....4400
Biscayne could weight in the 3800....this car was a cheap full siz and could be ordered with a big engine


74 Monte Carlo was 4000 lbs, awesome car that can fit a freaking jet engine in there
70 Carlo was still 3800 ish.

I mean yea the Camaro and Nova had less weight but still. Those cars had crappy suspension and were cheap. A stripped Nova has a weight that would make you smile but have fun putting the big block in there. It does fit but its not fun.... for me anways.

So they weren't magic numbers that a racer would droll over like say 2400 lbs or something. But yes the crappier cars had weights that drag racers rave over now. :drive:


Your a bit off on weights for the Chevelle and the 1970 Monte Carlo, I own a 1968 Chevelle (P/S, PDB, and that is it) 3600 so they could get down to 3500 for a truely stripper. The Monte of mine weights in at 3800 just like you said except it is no stripper, power windows, A/C, PDB, P/S all the sound deadener....et al so a base Monte is around 3650, I had a base 1970 Monte too and I mean base (no A/C or power windows) so I am coming from experience rather than speculation.

I find the weights of vehicles today to be too heavy considering all the plastic, aluminum, and other light metals used. Hell the SBC in my 71 Monte is all case iron and is way heavier than the LS3 in the Camaro but the Camaro is still a 150 pounds heavier than my Monte. Saftey can't weight all that much, I will say that with CAD modeling that the 5th gen Camaro is a STRONG car compared all the ones before it.

427C5
07-27-2009, 03:52 PM
Everything you post is completely inaccurate and based on personal opinions.
Your bullshit doesn't become true if you keep repeating it.
You can't refute ONE thing I've posted because it's all fact.

Ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy.

Dark SS
07-28-2009, 01:11 AM
You can't refute ONE thing I've posted because it's all fact.

Ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy.

I can't find one thing you posted that's an actual fact. If ignorance is bliss you must be the poster child. You keep repeating it so I guess you're trying to believe. A stock C5 will not beat an LS3 5th gen., period. Now prove me wrong.

I've been enjoying my car very much, now maybe you should enjoy yours a little bit more and post a little bit less so people can stop seeing how stupid you really are.

Chadder
07-28-2009, 02:42 AM
Your bullshit doesn't become true if you keep repeating it.
You can't refute ONE thing I've posted because it's all fact.

Ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy.

:cry:
See post 80.

427C5
07-28-2009, 10:43 AM
C5 is quicker than the 5th gen (and is still handicapped by runflat tires). Its on par with it from everything Ive seen.
I agree.
But, you're wasting your time sharing any facts with the boneheads posting in this thread.

They are going to believe whatever fantasies they choose and will continually repeat their their misinformation hoping it will become more true the more they repeat it.

The above sums it up.
If you really think a 5th Gen is going to take a stock C5, let alone a stock C5 ZO6 or SLIGHTLY modded C5, you are mistaken.

427C5
07-28-2009, 10:49 AM
I passed a new Challenger SRT 8 the yesterday.
It looked incredible and sounded great.

Is it a OBESE pig that get's destroyed by the Camaro?
Yes.
But, the girl who was driving it told me she bought it for the unique look, sound, and room for her family.
I can't argue that.

The Charger looks like shit when compared to the Challenger. Also, the Challenger has a HUGE backseat and trunk on par with the Charger.
So, the Challenger is the ONLY choice for me.

The reason I can't stand the new Camaro is because it has all the negatives of the G8 (high curb weight) and none of the positives. (huge backseat, huge trunk, four doors).

Does the Camaro LOOK great?
Absolutely!
But not enough to put up with ZERO room and a 3,950 curb weight.

ss1129
07-28-2009, 10:53 AM
I passed a new Chaqllenger SRT 8 the yesterday.
It looked incredible and sounded great.

Is it a OBESE pig that get's destroyed by the Camaro?
Yes.
But, the girl who was driving it told me she bought it for the unique look, sound, and room for her family.
I can't argue that.

The Charger looks like shit when compared to the Challenger. Also, the Challenger has a HUGE backseat and trunk on par with the Charger.
So, the Challenger is the ONLY choice for me.

The reason I can't stand the new Camaro is because it has all the negatives of the G8 (high curb weight) and none of the positives. (huge backseat, hige trunk, four doors).

Does the Camaro LOOK great?
Absolutely!
But not enough to put up with ZERO room and a 3,950 curb weight.


What if it weighed 3300 lbs and performed the same? Would that matter?

Also you never answered my question. What if the Camaro was built first, then they came out with the g8, would you call it a sedan built on a coupe chassis?

427C5
07-28-2009, 11:17 AM
What if it weighed 3300 lbs and performed the same? Would that matter?

Also you never answered my question. What if the Camaro was built first, then they came out with the g8, would you call it a sedan built on a coupe chassis?


A TRUE coupe is designed from the ground up as a coupe and it cannot be turned into a sedan. Corvette, Viper, Ferrari, 911, Cayman and even Miata are true coupes.
So, if you can built BOTH a sedan and a coupe on the same chassis, even the coupe is still a sedan. It's just a sedan with some of it's utility removed in an attempt to "appear" more stylish.

You need to learn about power to weight ratios my friend.
If you even have to ask if I'd be happier if the Camaro performed the same at 3,300lbs then it has become obvious to us all the reason you don't understand my grief is because you have ZERO understanding of physics or mechanics.
This isn't an insult.
It's an honest revelation.

Johny GTO
07-28-2009, 11:31 AM
ok guys, enough. There is no need for this to turn to insults and whatnot. What is being argued now is opinion.... whether it is too heavy to be worth it, is it worth not having a functional back seat, etc etc.

No one is going to change their opinion at this point. We all like different cars, and we all rank things differently in terms of importance (size, horsepower, room, etc). If not, there would be only 1 car of every model....1 truck, 1 minivan, 1 sedan, 1 coupe, etc.

Looks like everyone has made their decisions on whether or not the camaro is for them.
So lets stop the bickering, because when it comes down to it we are all car guys who love big motors, big torque curves, and should appreciate and respect each others difference of opinion and different taste in cars.

Even if you don't like the camaro, you should be congratulating the guy who just bought one. If you want to give your opinion on why it isnt for you fine, but don't insult the man. And if you bought a camaro because you liked it better than the other choices, it suited your needs, etc. thats fine as well. Dont argue that the other guy who didnt buy one is wrong in his opinions.


enough. shake hands and move on, ok?

427C5
07-28-2009, 11:42 AM
I'm REALLY not insulting the guy.
It actually makes sense now that if a guy doesn't understand power to weight ratios and the affect of added weight on ALL performance numbers, he wouldn't understand why I am so pissed.

ss1129
07-28-2009, 11:57 AM
I'm REALLY not insulting the guy.[insert attempt to insult him now]
It actually makes sense now that if a guy doesn't understand power to weight ratios and the affect of added weight on ALL performance numbers, he wouldn't understand why I am so pissed.

Your a fucking faggot and you can stick your power to weight ratio up your ass. Just like with your olive branch bullshit then in the same paragraph you try to insert your (what you thought to be) snide remarks.

Now I dont understand power to weight ratio because I asked you a question?

Would it be sweet if the Camaro only weighed 3400 lbs. Yes it would.

Does it? No. It still performs better than its targeted competitors regardless of you being a dick sucker or not.


See you in church.

Edit:

Here you dumb douche bag.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/drag-racing-tech/1151907-weight-sticky-2010-camaro.html

427C5
07-28-2009, 12:59 PM
You're defending your car, which I can respect, but you are absolutely off base and mainly delusional.
I don't even OWN a C5 anymore.
YOU are the one who is defending HIS car.

The C5 STILL beats your car. Sorry pal, a 2001 ZO6 will STOMP your 5th Gen for a lot less money.
Deal with it.

Dark SS
07-28-2009, 01:01 PM
I passed a new Challenger SRT 8 the yesterday.
It looked incredible and sounded great.

Is it a OBESE pig that get's destroyed by the Camaro?
Yes.
But, the girl who was driving it told me she bought it for the unique look, sound, and room for her family.
I can't argue that.

The Charger looks like shit when compared to the Challenger. Also, the Challenger has a HUGE backseat and trunk on par with the Charger.
So, the Challenger is the ONLY choice for me.

The reason I can't stand the new Camaro is because it has all the negatives of the G8 (high curb weight) and none of the positives. (huge backseat, huge trunk, four doors).

Does the Camaro LOOK great?
Absolutely!
But not enough to put up with ZERO room and a 3,950 curb weight.

So it doesn't matter that it's slower, more expensive and far inferior in every aspect as long as it has a bigger back seat and trunk. I bought a sports coupe to perform not haul shit around and it does that very well. Again a bullshit example that makes no sense from you. I'm still waiting for factual numbers on how a stock C5 is faster than a 5th gen., it's simply not true.

Dark SS
07-28-2009, 01:03 PM
The C5 STILL beats your car.

Where, show me. Let's see some of those facts that you spu. I know an Lt1 that spanks C5's and I can pull him so unless you have some video's for me I'm calling bullshit. I driven both and can tell you that you're full of shit.

427C5
07-28-2009, 01:06 PM
I bought a sports coupe to perform not haul shit around and it does that very well.

Sorry to break it to you, you bought a sports SEDAN whether you can wrap your mind around it or not.


. I'm still waiting for factual numbers on how a stock C5 is faster than a 5th gen., it's simply not true.
Oh, your fat mouth and hard head are going to find out what the facts are on the street, soon enough.:cry:
You're going to need hard ass too with all the ass kicking your going to get.

Dark SS
07-28-2009, 01:09 PM
No, I didn't. It has 2 doors and weighs less than the sedan, what part of that don't you understand. According to you a G35 coupe is a sedan too?

427C5
07-28-2009, 01:11 PM
According to you a G35 coupe is a sedan too?
Now you're catching on !!!!!!!!!!
Did the dim bulb FINALLY turn on ??????

Dark SS
07-28-2009, 01:21 PM
Now you're catching on !!!!!!!!!!
Did the dim bulb FINALLY turn on ??????

Oh yeah I get it now..............
I have a revelation here..........
After talking to you I see the light...



Here it comes............


You really are this dumb and it isn't an act, you just can't help it.

I had fun trying to set you straight but it's hopeless. Like you said, ignorance is bliss in your world. Have a good time here trying to bash people who don't completly agree with you. As for me I'm going to choose to ignore you now and let you live in your fantasy world. Argueing with you is like pissing in the wind.

Johny GTO
07-28-2009, 01:23 PM
well, so much for that attempt to chill things out. lol.

carry on.

427C5
07-28-2009, 01:26 PM
Set me straight?
You don't even understand power to weight ratio!
You had to ask if we would be happier if the Camaro weighed 600lb less and had the same performance !!!!!!

Argue with me?
You don't even have the tools!
I'm willing to bet the most of the veterans on this site have forgotten more about this hobby and cars then you even know.


well, so much for that attempt to chill things out. lol.

carry on.
sorry man.

ss1129
07-28-2009, 01:58 PM
Set me straight?
You don't even understand power to weight ratio!
You had to ask if we would be happier if the Camaro weighed 600lb less and had the same performance !!!!!!

Argue with me?
You don't even have the tools!
I'm willing to bet the most of the veterans on this site have forgotten more about this hobby and cars then you even know.



Do you really expect me to argue with you on whether or not I know what power to weight ratio means......after I posted a link to a thread I started about putting this car on a diet....that I started before you started trying to poison all the 2010 camaro threads.

You are aware that the 2010 Camaro meets 2012 safety standards already.....I mean your so smart. You should know that. That means heavier car. Thank your government for that one.

JD_AMG
07-28-2009, 02:53 PM
Where, show me. Let's see some of those facts that you spu. I know an Lt1 that spanks C5's and I can pull him so unless you have some video's for me I'm calling bullshit. I driven both and can tell you that you're full of shit.

Are these C5's equipped with granny trannies?
A M6 base model C5 will go high 12s with a good driver, just like a M6 2010 SS.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars_trucks/1269976.html?page=13
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/performance-results/2019853-official-c5-1-4-times-list.html

427C5
07-28-2009, 03:20 PM
Thanks for posting JD.
But, why argue with a kid who will deny widely known facts even after you post proof?

Chadder
07-28-2009, 04:34 PM
Thanks for posting JD.
But, why argue with a kid who will deny widely known facts even after you post proof?

It's funny you say that, because I've posted valid facts and numbers (proof) that you have yet to respond to. :corn:

427C5
07-28-2009, 05:15 PM
Oh, so Chowder is back claiming since ONE driver in an AUTOMATIC C5 went slower then the Camaro YEARS ago, that means the new Camaro is faster. :rolleyes:
I don't respond to you because you post stupid shit that's not worth responding to. A stock C5 went 11's @ 119 almost 8 years ago and EVERYONE who has a clue knows a C5 will DESTROY a 5th Gen on a road course.


Why don't you and the other bonehead quit posting the bullshit that you want to pass off as facts and STFU.

ss1129
07-28-2009, 05:23 PM
Oh, so Chowder is back claiming since ONE driver in an AUTOMATIC C5 went slower then the Camaro YEARS ago, that means the new Camaro is faster. :rolleyes:
I don't respond to you because you post stupid shit that's not worth responding to.


Why don't you and the other bonehead quit posting the bullshit that you want to pass off as facts and STFU.

Why dont you get the fuck out of my threads and go back to your friends at NAMBLA.

Your the dumb cocksucker that came in here and started shit. I didnt come knocking on your door to tell you why such and such sucks. Dipshit.

427C5
07-28-2009, 05:26 PM
Why dont you get the fuck out of my threads and go back to your friends at NAMBLA.

Your the dumb cocksucker that came in here and started shit. I didnt come knocking on your door to tell you why such and such sucks. Dipshit.

Fair enough.
I'm sorry I took you thread off course.
I'll keep my posts in the "Camaro Reviewed" thread.

Good luck with putting your car on a diet.
It needs it.

As far as all your insults and chatter, make sure your this mouthy in the real world.
I look forward to hearing about you getting folded in half at track or street race in future. If you didn't live in the middle of nowhere, I'd invite you the local track for some lessons in manners.

ss1129
07-28-2009, 05:35 PM
Fair enough.
I'm sorry I took you thread off course.
I'll keep my posts in the "Camaro Reviewed" thread.

Good luck with putting your car on a diet.
It needs it.

As far as all your insults and chatter, make sure your this mouthy in the real world.
I look forward to hearing about you getting folded in half at track or street race in future. If you didn't live in the middle of nowhere, I'd invite you the local track for some lessons in manners.

Bye.....

Chadder
07-28-2009, 06:05 PM
Oh, so Chowder is back claiming since ONE driver in an AUTOMATIC C5 went slower then the Camaro YEARS ago, that means the new Camaro is faster. :rolleyes:
I don't respond to you because you post stupid shit that's not worth responding to. A stock C5 went 11's @ 119 almost 8 years ago and EVERYONE who has a clue knows a C5 will DESTROY a 5th Gen on a road course.


Why don't you and the other bonehead quit posting the bullshit that you want to pass off as facts and STFU.

You're a fucking moron. First of all, you didn't even read what I typed. A manual c5 went 8:18 on the Nurburgring. I'm not talking about the automatic at all. Second of all, c5's that go 11's stock are fucking z06's, not stock m6's that we're talking about. Third, the Camaro has a HIGHER power to weight ratio than a stock c5. While the camaro may be heavy, it makes up for it in superior power. (9.27 lb/hp C5, 9.06 Camaro SS) Therefore, performance is roughly equal.

My facts > your facts.

Troll.

427C5
07-28-2009, 06:19 PM
You're a fucking moron. First of all, you didn't even read what I typed. A manual c5 went 8:18 on the Nurburgring. I'm not talking about the automatic at all. Second of all, c5's that go 11's stock are fucking z06's, not stock m6's that we're talking about. Third, the Camaro has a HIGHER power to weight ratio than a stock c5. While the camaro may be heavy, it makes up for it in superior power. (9.27 lb/hp C5, 9.06 Camaro SS) Therefore, performance is roughly equal.

My facts > your facts.

Troll.


Get it right if you are gonna try to quote me.
I NEVER said BASE model C5. I said C5. C5 includes LS1 and LS6 cars.
A LS6 car will mop the floor with the new Camaro.
I believe a lightly modded, or even stock , C5 will beat a Camaro as well.

And I'm not just talking 1/4 mile. When you take that fat pig on the road course, it's gonna get raped.


Lastly, keep why don't we try to keep the name calling to face to face meetings where I can SHOW you how I feel.
If not, at least respect everyone else and keep it to PM.

ss1129
07-28-2009, 06:28 PM
Get it right if you are gonna try to quote me.
I NEVER said BASE model C5. I said C5. C5 includes LS1 and LS6 cars.
A LS6 car will mop the floor with the new Camaro.
I believe a lightly modded, or even stock , C5 will beat a Camaro as well.

And I'm not just talking 1/4 mile. When you take that fat pig on the road course, it's gonna get raped.


Lastly, keep why don't we try to keep the name calling to face to face meetings where I can SHOW you how I feel.
If not, at least respect everyone else and keep it to PM.

Well last I checked the Camaro beat the auto c5 on Nurburgring and only fell 2 seconds behind the stick version.

I believe a lightly modded camaro....yadda yadda yadda.


Oh wait I forgot Nurburgring must not be a road course...LOL

Oh where did your power to weight ratio argument go? Oh you lost that one too...lol.

So lets see, you still have the camaro is heavy. Yup you win that one.
Has small back seats....yup you win that one.
Has a small trunk.....yup you win that one.

You lost your two biggest arguments....power to weight
and performance be less than a c5 vettes.

427C5
07-28-2009, 06:30 PM
OK, time to take you to school again, junior.
I'll give you just 2 more advantages of the lighter C5:
1) More performance per HP added.
2) Less strain on the drivetrain per HP added.

Maybe you can think about those facts and report back to the class why they make the C5 STILL a better performance car than your fat Camaro.

What are you still doing here, anyway?
I thought you were supposed to be outside on your front lawn taking a hacksaw to your fat girl?

ss1129
07-28-2009, 07:16 PM
OK, time to take you to school again, junior.
I'll give you just 2 more advantages of the lighter C5:
1) More performance per HP added.
2) Less strain on the drivetrain per HP added.

Maybe you can think about those facts and report back to the class why they make the C5 STILL a better performance car than your fat Camaro.

What are you still doing here, anyway?
I thought you were supposed to be outside on your front lawn taking a hacksaw to your fat girl?

Umm if the camaro has a better power to weight ratio wouldnt it benifit more than a car with a worse power to weight ratio?

I mean fuck 5 posts ago thats all that you spewed out your vagina was POWER TO WEIGHT...POWER TO WEIGHT. Looks like you should of done the math you fucking mongoloid.

Now its more performance per hp added? What?
Oh and less strain on the drivetrain per hp added.

Your a fucking tool and I would gladly tell you to your dick breath mouth.

So again the camaro is heavy, and not good for utility. But its faster than its direct competition and meets 2012 safety standards already and competes with and in some cases out performs a c5 vette. All these things are proven facts. I know your going to jump in with NOT THE Z06zers!! ITZ DA BEST CA EVERZ!

Why are you so upset about this car. Did you lose a family member on the production line or something? Honestly?

427C5
07-28-2009, 07:31 PM
How can someone who doesn't grasp basic physics attempt to public insult those that have much more knowledge and experience than them?

You have publicly displayed the fact you don't realize that if you have 2 cars with the same power to weight ratio, and one is 700lbs lighter, you will see a greater increase in performance per HP added to the lighter car when compared to the heavier vehicle.
Car Knowledge 101.

As far as why I'm pissed, go back and READ my post where I clearly stated why.
I think you've been to busy slinging bullshit and weak insults than you don't even take the time to read the threads.

If you met me and talked this way, you wouldn't be able to smell my breath because you would be on the floor.
Keep ranting and insulting me from behind your computer.
It's very brave.:rolleyes:

ss1129
07-28-2009, 07:40 PM
And pretending to be a tough guy because you know we will never meet in real life is brave? Im just calling you names bro, Id do it to your face if you were that stupid in real life too.

Chadder
07-28-2009, 07:56 PM
Yeah, we're done here. Mr. Internet badass has proven his inability to debate with hard evidence or sources. Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true.

427C5
07-28-2009, 08:18 PM
Idiots like the ones posting in this thread are why GM can get away with killing the G8 and selling a 3,850lb "Camaro".

You people deserve what you get.

I'm done.

TWS
07-28-2009, 08:36 PM
I skimmed this thread and decided (against my better judgement) to just make a statement about the G8.

I recently held a dyno day here and two club members brought in their G8's and strapped them down. Both have the L76 motor (they are not GXP's).

Anyway, the one with 1K miles put down 292 to the wheels. The one with 8K miles put down 310. These are SAE corrected, so you can compared them to corrected dyno numbers from elsewhere. I attrribute the difference to the 1k mile G8 not being broken in at all, plus the 8K mile G8 has the mid model year change (can't remember what it is but the owner told me) that raises flywheel HP by ~6, IIRC.

I don't want to get into the food fight going on here, but thought I could contribute a factual observation.

Oh, and BTW, the 5th gen Camaro is disappointingly heavy IMO. Don't shoot me. :angel: :lol:

It still looks very badass for a production car and I hope Chevy sells boatloads of them... God knows they need to.