View Full Version : Dyno results - poor parts combo?


JimMueller
10-03-2009, 05:54 PM
So even though I have HPTuners, I bit the bullet and had Jeremy Formato tune the car last weekend. I was happy with my OLSD part-throttle and idle, but didn't feel I was getting everything I could out of WOT.

We're working through some random high idle problems, but the car typically picked up 5-15rwtq across the board over the fueling and spark maps I had from street tuning. The ambient was hovering around 98-102* during dyno tuning.

But long story short, I'm still disappointed in the results overall. With 11.4 compression, PRC 58cc 5.3L heads, 224/230 XFI cam, longtube headers and Vengeance Ported Fast92 I was really expecting to be closer to 450-460rwhp and maybe 10rwtq higher at peak torque based upon other posts with similar combinations,

Is it worth my while to worry about this? If so, where do I start without big expenses?

http://www.centralfloridastreetcars.com/phpBB3/garage.php?mode=view_image&image_id=44

Dom
10-03-2009, 06:12 PM
1. Can't compare two dynos.
2. You have 5.3 heads. They give nice compression but don't flow as well as 243s. Those are most likely holding you back.
3. Your cam is mild.

I think your dyno is pretty close to where it should be.

01SuperSport
10-03-2009, 06:36 PM
^^^^ I think that is pretty much it. But what other mods do you have??? Maybe add a pulley, ram air, cutout???

JimMueller
10-03-2009, 06:40 PM
Click on the link in my sig, and click the Modifications tab at the bottom of the new window. Yes, I have an ASP pulley, FTRA and cutout. But the FTRA doesn't help on the dyno.

Gh0st
10-03-2009, 06:53 PM
PRC 58cc 5.3L heads, 224/230 XFI cam

Found your problem.

Get better heads and a slightly more aggressive cam if you plan on 450whp.

Fatbum
10-03-2009, 06:58 PM
Numbers look good for an LS1. Dont fret, I'm sure it will run well at the track, you should be able to pull off some good times. Your cam really isn't that small, you have good lift as well which a lot of people neglect that. I know the 5.3l heads dont flow as well as the 243s, so you could have room for some pick up there, but your making pretty good numbers as is. I wouldn't worry about it.

Billiumss
10-03-2009, 07:12 PM
PRC 58cc 5.3L heads, 224/230 XFI cam

Found your problem.

Get better heads and a slightly more aggressive cam if you plan on 450whp.


Yep....

JimMueller
10-03-2009, 07:20 PM
Crap. Guess I need to save for the next upgrade.

gator's 99TA
10-03-2009, 08:56 PM
you have budget oriented heads and a cam with an intake duration of 224 and you expect 450-460?

that is not the norm. formato is the best and you are in good hands. if you want more power, you need a set of TF heads and a bigger cam.

JimMueller
10-03-2009, 09:14 PM
When I had a 227/235 LSK cam, it made basically the same numbers with an LS6 intake. I was using a rev-kit & Caddy lifters with the LS6 vs. the OEM lifter trays & LS7 lifters now with the Vengeance Fast92. I was hoping the ported Fast92 would more than offset the change in cams. I would prefer AFR's to TFs, though :-)

PREDATOR-Z
10-03-2009, 09:24 PM
I have to agree with changing heads. 450 is achievable with 224/230, even beyond that. Look for Tony Mamo AFR 205, 224/228 114LSA combo, 475 rwhp in a C5.
Attention to detail and hours of tuning can get you there.
So TFS 215 or AFR 205s can do it.

Billiumss
10-04-2009, 09:17 AM
Attention to detail and hours of tuning can get you there.



Most people over look this.

ExceSSive
10-04-2009, 03:03 PM
Also, Mammo had an EWP. As many have said though >450 is not the norm with that cam. I think to get where you want you are a couple mods away, agree with above.

Johnnystock
10-04-2009, 03:15 PM
1. Can't compare two dynos.
2. You have 5.3 heads. They give nice compression but don't flow as well as 243s. Those are most likely holding you back.
3. Your cam is mild.

I think your dyno is pretty close to where it should be.

+1....

Fbodyjunkie06
10-04-2009, 11:09 PM
A mid 230 duration cam with low 600's lift and aftermarket casting will get you over 450 with a ported fast 92/92. You are making 11 second numbers right there, I'd be happy for a good while. If this isn't enough for you the cheapest least time consuming easiest way to more power is a N20 jetting away...that is after you buy the nitrous kit...:)

jegten
10-05-2009, 12:29 AM
well, though i agree with the above, here is my experience.
i have the same heads, 59cc, and my scr is ~11.8:1, ported ls6 intake, p/p tb, but, my cam is 236/240, .600+ lift int/exh.
almost straight from the install, it dyno'd, iirc, 430rwhp/400rwtq.
i have spent many hours tuning it, and, it is a lot stronger than that dyno day.
so, if it is not in the 450-460 area, it is close. oh, it is a GTO. (we dyno less than fbodies)

anyhow, hope this helps, and it does reiterate the cam upgrade. just my experience, for better or for worse.

JimMueller
10-05-2009, 09:56 AM
A mid 230 duration cam with low 600's lift and aftermarket casting will get you over 450 with a ported fast 92/92. You are making 11 second numbers right there, I'd be happy for a good while. If this isn't enough for you the cheapest least time consuming easiest way to more power is a N20 jetting away...that is after you buy the nitrous kit...:)

I checked with Tony and those awesome modifed AFR205's run $3500. For $3500, it better get me there without a new cam :) N2O not legal for my type of racing.

well, though i agree with the above, here is my experience.
i have the same heads, 59cc, and my scr is ~11.8:1, ported ls6 intake, p/p tb, but, my cam is 236/240, .600+ lift int/exh.
almost straight from the install, it dyno'd, iirc, 430rwhp/400rwtq.
i have spent many hours tuning it, and, it is a lot stronger than that dyno day.
so, if it is not in the 450-460 area, it is close. oh, it is a GTO. (we dyno less than fbodies)

anyhow, hope this helps, and it does reiterate the cam upgrade. just my experience, for better or for worse.
Your signature says you have a 418ci... can I assume the numbers above were on the LS1 longblock you are selling?

jegten
10-05-2009, 10:26 AM
...
Your signature says you have a 418ci... can I assume the numbers above were on the LS1 longblock you are selling?

that is correct.
i am actually installing the forged 418 in a couple of weeks.

Damian
10-05-2009, 12:20 PM
Definitely on the low side. The cam only cars I do are typically in the 410-420rwhp area with stock 241 castings and LS6 intakes.

As stated, you have budget heads and a relatively small cam. TQ curve looks good though.

Don't spend another $2000+ on heads. Just throw a $400 NX kit on it and hose the bitch with a 100 shot. :thumb:

Gh0st
10-05-2009, 12:31 PM
Definitely on the low side. The cam only cars I do are typically in the 410-420rwhp area with stock 241 castings and LS6 intakes.

As stated, you have budget heads and a relatively small cam. TQ curve looks good though.

Don't spend another $2000+ on heads. Just throw a $400 NX kit on it and hose the bitch with a 100 shot. :thumb:

I agree!

jegten
10-05-2009, 01:27 PM
there is a GTO in florida with the same heads 59cc, F14 cam, ported FAST 92, 92mm tb, kooks, ud pulley, that made 466rwhp/422rwtq.
so, if you are decide on the bigger cam, well...:D

JimMueller
10-05-2009, 03:01 PM
Definitely on the low side. The cam only cars I do are typically in the 410-420rwhp area with stock 241 castings and LS6 intakes.

As stated, you have budget heads and a relatively small cam. TQ curve looks good though.

Don't spend another $2000+ on heads. Just throw a $400 NX kit on it and hose the bitch with a 100 shot. :thumb:

Are you saying it's on the low side for the parts combination? Can't do N2O, rules prohibit it.

there is a GTO in florida with the same heads 59cc, F14 cam, ported FAST 92, 92mm tb, kooks, ud pulley, that made 466rwhp/422rwtq.
so, if you are decide on the bigger cam, well...:D

I'd have to see the graph. I need to be able to pull real hard in second gear sometimes as low as 10-15MPH and be able to minimize shifting... I need that torque down low :nod:

firefighter813x
10-05-2009, 04:32 PM
I'll take a new shortblock than spend $3500 on heads.

jegten
10-05-2009, 11:26 PM
...
I'd have to see the graph. I need to be able to pull real hard in second gear sometimes as low as 10-15MPH and be able to minimize shifting... I need that torque down low :nod:
i hear you.
you might have to reconsider then. maybe a stroker? :D
here is the link to that graph, i figure i post the link instead of just bringing the pic of his graph.
GTOdyno graph (http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325169)

lilbuddy1587
10-06-2009, 12:29 AM
Just throw a FAS... Nevermind...

As was said, budget heads = budget power.

sscamaroburn02
10-06-2009, 08:25 AM
i'm running those same 2.5 heads/233/239 cam/lt's/FAST and put down 431 hp and 391 tq. With budget heads I thought they performed well. I didn't expect big numbers like heads costing $1300 or more.

JimMueller
10-06-2009, 09:08 AM
Ironically, this (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1186504-prc-220cc-5-3l-stage-2-5-any-good.html) thread was recently posted. There are people using a stalled auto and a 9" rear end or TH400 making the same numbers as me. I've got a M6/10-bolt.

Also, the parts in this (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1078142-hke-346-comp-cam-239-242-458rwhp.html) thread are significantly different enough for me to lose 30rwhp and 30rwtq peak?
- heads are the same
- cam is a 239/242 111LSA
- Kooks stepped headers w/o cats

I had requested stepped headers, but George at ARH told Mike Norris that there was no benefit for using stepped headers for my size motor so we went with the normal headers. So can just the stepped headers and cam cause this sizable difference?

Damian
10-06-2009, 11:38 AM
Maybe a leak down/compression check is in order?

JimMueller
10-06-2009, 12:30 PM
Did a compression test last April, to try to confirm poor Fast92 gains over the LS6 intake. Thread is here (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/florida-members/1100729-compression-leak-down-tests.html). Wanted to try to eliminate any mechanical problems before having the car tuned. Never did a leakdown test though. It does burn some oil but the catch can seems to be doing it's job.

corvet786c
10-07-2009, 11:18 AM
I just dynoed mine with AFR heads ported vengence Fast and 224/228/114 cam this morning I made 427 hp 398 tq. I figure I am abouit 430 like you. But it is what it is.

JimMueller
10-07-2009, 11:29 AM
I just dynoed mine with AFR heads ported vengence Fast and 224/228/114 cam this morning I made 427 hp 398 tq. I figure I am abouit 430 like you. But it is what it is.
I'd personally be PO'ed if I had AFR heads that generated the same tuned results as a ported stock casting.:confused:

Gh0st
10-07-2009, 11:35 AM
I'd personally be PO'ed if I had AFR heads that generated the same tuned results as a ported stock casting.:confused:

Why? his numbers are fine with that combo. I believe NicD has a baby cam like that, fast92, and afr 205, made same power.

Dennis@SpectacleSolutions
10-07-2009, 01:27 PM
1. Can't compare two dynos.
2. You have 5.3 heads. They give nice compression but don't flow as well as 243s. Those are most likely holding you back.
3. Your cam is mild.

I think your dyno is pretty close to where it should be.

agreed.

98Z28CobraKiller
10-07-2009, 02:06 PM
First of all, for a set of AFR 205's to cost $3500, they must come with some really trick hardware. I set of CNC AFR 205's with standard hardware will cost you just a hair over $2,200.00 and will perform with the correct cam. I just saw a set that were sold in the classifieds for $1900 and they were hand worked by Tony so keep an eye out. Lot's of deals out there right now.

corvet786c
10-07-2009, 02:47 PM
To the OP what is your exhaust set up like. I am running Pacesetters 1 3/4 with high flow cats w/ flowmaster merge collector stock ported MAF and steel flywheel all on 10 bolt.

JimMueller
10-08-2009, 10:34 PM
To the OP what is your exhaust set up like. I am running Pacesetters 1 3/4 with high flow cats w/ flowmaster merge collector stock ported MAF and steel flywheel all on 10 bolt.
ARH 1 3/4" with ARH cat'ed y-pipe into SLP dual-dual exhaust, with exhaust dump just after axle. No MAF, 13.5lb flywheel, steel driveshaft, 10-bolt with 3.73's.

JimMueller
12-02-2009, 01:47 PM
So this fella has a 9" compared to my 10-bolt, same 'budget' TSP 5.3 heads and chamber size, cam with a bigger split, he doesn't have AC, dyno'ed at Texas Speed...

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1189621-got-numbers-going-texas-speed-monday-morning-dynotune.html

He has 30rwhp and 30rwtq over me...why? His torque curve is wider and peak power is also higher. WTF is wrong with my motor?

john563
12-02-2009, 02:32 PM
i have those heads with a 232/238 6xx 6xx 111lsa cam and ported fast 90/90..When it had a 3500 stall and stock 3:23 it put down 435rwhp and 407rwt

Added a 4400 stall,and 3:73 gears (wich both rob "dyno" numbers) and now dyno 426rwhp

Hope this helps you out

ScreaminRedZ
12-02-2009, 04:26 PM
Numbers look good to me for the setup.

I'm seeing this more and more where, if someone doesn't make 400+ with a cam only setup or 450+ with a heads/cam setup, then they immediately think there's a problem somewhere. You have to look at what cam and what heads were used (along with supporting mods) like everyone in here is saying.

Patrick G
12-02-2009, 04:52 PM
Jim,

I think it comes down to the fact that some dynos are stingier than others. The important thing is looking at the delta from where you were before the mods to where you are now...on the same dyno. Chances are good that some of those 460rwhp dyno runs on happier dynos would only put out 430rwhp on yours. It happens. I hate stingy dynos. They can make you hate your combo even when there's nothing wrong with it.

Midnight02
12-02-2009, 05:28 PM
I think a lot can be said about variances in numbers from different dynos, however just looking at your combo you're probably right around where you should be.

Check out my combo below -- same heads, similar cam and supporting mods. N/A I usually made 430 - 440 rwhp and 405 - 410 rwtq with my combo. The high ends of the ranges were when the N/A tune was dialed in really well -- car ran strong. Sure the car didn't put up crazy dyno numbers, but it drives well and makes a ton of power under the curve. When I decided that I wanted crazy dyno numbers I slapped on a N2O kit and got my dyno sheet with 600+ rwhp.

Based on what you've said about your car it sounds like a "middle of the road" cam mated with those heads should do a pretty good job meeting your needs on the course -- if that's the case, keep tearing it up on the course and no worries if the only thing you're lacking is a dyno sheet with big numbers.

Hugger
12-02-2009, 09:01 PM
A mid 230 duration cam with low 600's lift and aftermarket casting will get you over 450 with a ported fast 92/92. You are making 11 second numbers right there, I'd be happy for a good while.

Are you nuts... You guys are assuming that dyno numbers and track times have a direct relationship. There are plenty of guys in the 10's with sub 400 hp.

Josh

ss454327
12-02-2009, 09:47 PM
Are you nuts... You guys are assuming that dyno numbers and track times have a direct relationship. There are plenty of guys in the 10's with sub 400 hp.

Josh

Exactly! My cousin went in the 11's with a full body TA and just bolt ons and a 228R cam. Too many people use the dyno for what's it's NOT intended for. It's for getting the most out of your combination not bench racing. A dyno is a tool...not a racetrack.

Ryne @ CMS
12-05-2009, 07:27 PM
on my dyno those numbers are about right.... but my dyno isnt friendly all time...