hlp me !!!!!!
12-10-2009, 01:16 PM
#1
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hlp me !!!!!! I have started my 408 on a compression ratio of 10:3:1 with an F1c procharger on it running 17 psi. Yesterday i dyno tuned it and got 805 rearwheel horsepower and 730 torque. The dillema is i cant increase timing because of experiencing detonation when increasing timing number. I got 805 rwhp by setting 15 timing 
and if i increased it to 17 i got it detonating. 
The question is would it be possible to achieve 1000 rwhp when installing methanol water kit and nitrous
on the same combination? If the answer is yes how much nitrous can be set and how much timing can i increase? 
thanks
navy
and if i increased it to 17 i got it detonating. The question is would it be possible to achieve 1000 rwhp when installing methanol water kit and nitrous
on the same combination? If the answer is yes how much nitrous can be set and how much timing can i increase? thanks
navy
12-10-2009, 02:28 PM
#2
What kind of fuel? That will be your largest determining factor. If you were dynoing on pump fuel a good race gas will allow you to add timing and make more power. Water methanol does the same thing. It cools the intake charge and adds octane allowing you to be able to add more timing. Nitrous will make morte power but you will be pulling timing from your current tune up with nitrous.
12-10-2009, 02:38 PM
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Your compression ratio is quite high for 17psi boost, so your not gonna get alot of timing into it, not without race gas or E85.
Meth will help, may take another 3 or 4 deg and will cool intake air temps as well, wouldn't be surprised if you picked up 80-100 hp with meth.
add a 75 or 100 shot of nitrous and you should see your 1000 rwhp goal.
Meth will help, may take another 3 or 4 deg and will cool intake air temps as well, wouldn't be surprised if you picked up 80-100 hp with meth.
add a 75 or 100 shot of nitrous and you should see your 1000 rwhp goal.
12-10-2009, 02:56 PM
#4
For the fuel we have here in Saudi and Kuwait 10:3.1 with 17psi is WAY too high if your running pump gas be careful man..
No way you gonna reach 1000rwhp without the nitrous or race gas (with more boost)
I also think 15 timing is enough...
Good luck..
No way you gonna reach 1000rwhp without the nitrous or race gas (with more boost)
I also think 15 timing is enough...
Good luck..
12-10-2009, 03:15 PM
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What it will come down to is basically what your limits are on race gas. Water/meth will make yur ceiling about the same, with more intake cooling besides. My guess is that you could hit 1000WHP with water/meth and nitrous.
But that depends on the setup quite a bit. How much timing total were you able to use as it sits right now? Every engine has an optimal max timing number thats determined mostly by octane, temperature, compression, cylinder head design, and cam specs. If you have nice mild DCR that will help a LOT in this case.
But that depends on the setup quite a bit. How much timing total were you able to use as it sits right now? Every engine has an optimal max timing number thats determined mostly by octane, temperature, compression, cylinder head design, and cam specs. If you have nice mild DCR that will help a LOT in this case.
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12-11-2009, 03:32 PM
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12-11-2009, 10:46 PM
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If I understand you right you're saying that with the meth/water injection with the nitrous and with his C/R he will be safe to turn the boost up? If that is right to be even more so safe it would be smart to lower his C/R. too. I agree that the meth/water will help. But the C/R will still need to be lowerd for more protection from breaking something.
12-14-2009, 05:22 PM
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If I understand you right you're saying that with the meth/water injection with the nitrous and with his C/R he will be safe to turn the boost up? If that is right to be even more so safe it would be smart to lower his C/R. too. I agree that the meth/water will help. But the C/R will still need to be lowerd for more protection from breaking something.
It is possible to up the boost more all else being equal with the additon of the water/meth, due to the cooler cylinder temps and greater octane of the overall air/fuel mix. How much? Hard to say. As I mentioned earlier, it comes down what his limits are on race gas. He is pushing fairly hard as is, but considering that he is able to avoid knock by running 15 degrees, I think he has a lot left in the setup if detonation can be kept down. I think, but do not know, that he was on the pump gas available in the area.
So the large octane gains and the dramatic cooling from water/meth may well allow him to run a shot of nitrous and get to 1000WHP, without dropping the CR. The intercooling effect of both the nitrous and the water/meth will be a big help there. But it really depends a lot on what he dynoed on the first place too, which we do not know yet.
The other thing I was mentioning is that a fail-safe and tuning that is taking IAT into account will be a very good idea when pushing that hard.
12-14-2009, 11:13 PM
#11
It is possible to up the boost more all else being equal with the additon of the water/meth, due to the cooler cylinder temps and greater octane of the overall air/fuel mix. How much? Hard to say. As I mentioned earlier, it comes down what his limits are on race gas. He is pushing fairly hard as is, but considering that he is able to avoid knock by running 15 degrees, I think he has a lot left in the setup if detonation can be kept down. I think, but do not know, that he was on the pump gas available in the area.
So the large octane gains and the dramatic cooling from water/meth may well allow him to run a shot of nitrous and get to 1000WHP, without dropping the CR. The intercooling effect of both the nitrous and the water/meth will be a big help there. But it really depends a lot on what he dynoed on the first place too, which we do not know yet.
The other thing I was mentioning is that a fail-safe and tuning that is taking IAT into account will be a very good idea when pushing that hard.
So the large octane gains and the dramatic cooling from water/meth may well allow him to run a shot of nitrous and get to 1000WHP, without dropping the CR. The intercooling effect of both the nitrous and the water/meth will be a big help there. But it really depends a lot on what he dynoed on the first place too, which we do not know yet.
The other thing I was mentioning is that a fail-safe and tuning that is taking IAT into account will be a very good idea when pushing that hard.
I am very intersted in this! Because I was told by many for one not to mix nitrous and meth/water injection kits. Because the meth with the nitrous would raise the chances for knock/detonation! On top of that me haveing the same C/R as navy. It has been told to me, that if I want to run high boost the C/R would need to be around 9:1. That I might get by with it on 10:3:1 C/R for a little while depending on the tune and fule setup. But was not recommended on the current C/R.
12-15-2009, 05:56 PM
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All that being true and I agree for the most part of it. But would it be safer for him or anyone else for this matter, such as myself. To lower the C/R just to be on the safe side of things? Doing or trying to reach the goal at hand as it stands even with all stated above from you. One bad hicup and major damage can happen to the motor.
I am very intersted in this! Because I was told by many for one not to mix nitrous and meth/water injection kits. Because the meth with the nitrous would raise the chances for knock/detonation! On top of that me haveing the same C/R as navy. It has been told to me, that if I want to run high boost the C/R would need to be around 9:1. That I might get by with it on 10:3:1 C/R for a little while depending on the tune and fule setup. But was not recommended on the current C/R.
I am very intersted in this! Because I was told by many for one not to mix nitrous and meth/water injection kits. Because the meth with the nitrous would raise the chances for knock/detonation! On top of that me haveing the same C/R as navy. It has been told to me, that if I want to run high boost the C/R would need to be around 9:1. That I might get by with it on 10:3:1 C/R for a little while depending on the tune and fule setup. But was not recommended on the current C/R.
Water/methanol makes nitrous much safer. This is because while nitrous does a fantastic job cooling the IATs, it also creates a good bit of heat in the combustion chamber even with a proper fuel system in place. The water in particular helps to keep these temperatures in check. And the methanol burns cooler than any gasoline, so it helps in that regard as well. Being that methanol is higher octane than all but the best race fuel (and water does not combust), it will certanly not cause any detonation. It will prevent it. many people use a mild, simple system triggered by the nitrous as a insurance policy.
12-16-2009, 07:29 AM
#13
Lowering the CR will make things safer for sure. It might be possible to attain his goals as-is, but going with something a bit more conservative will help with that safety margin, which does look pretty thin in this particular case. I just really want to know what gas we are starting with here.
Water/methanol makes nitrous much safer. This is because while nitrous does a fantastic job cooling the IATs, it also creates a good bit of heat in the combustion chamber even with a proper fuel system in place. The water in particular helps to keep these temperatures in check. And the methanol burns cooler than any gasoline, so it helps in that regard as well. Being that methanol is higher octane than all but the best race fuel (and water does not combust), it will certanly not cause any detonation. It will prevent it. many people use a mild, simple system triggered by the nitrous as a insurance policy.
Water/methanol makes nitrous much safer. This is because while nitrous does a fantastic job cooling the IATs, it also creates a good bit of heat in the combustion chamber even with a proper fuel system in place. The water in particular helps to keep these temperatures in check. And the methanol burns cooler than any gasoline, so it helps in that regard as well. Being that methanol is higher octane than all but the best race fuel (and water does not combust), it will certanly not cause any detonation. It will prevent it. many people use a mild, simple system triggered by the nitrous as a insurance policy.
. I didnt thing that they was right about that. Thanks for clearing all that up with the safer subject and the meth and nitrous thing also. 
12-16-2009, 09:34 AM
#15
I have a 1989 TTA that I am thinking about selling. They only made 1555 of them and mine is #13. So I am haveing a hard time making my mind up on that part. But I never drive it anymore. I was going to build it....but when I found out that they dont make the 109 blocks anymore. I changed my mind! Couldn't do it. I have to much respect for the car.
So I've got to sell it, if I want this project to be done sooner. Or hold on to it and wait. But even if I sell it, most of the money will be put away for my son.
12-16-2009, 03:20 PM
#17
I am going to be running a single turbo! I have a STS kit to put on. I will need to get me some headers if I stay STS. But not sure if I will. Need to get me a set of heads, intake, cam and a stroker kit. Yeah I just getting started on it.
I have a 1989 TTA that I am thinking about selling. They only made 1555 of them and mine is #13. So I am haveing a hard time making my mind up on that part. But I never drive it anymore. I was going to build it....but when I found out that they dont make the 109 blocks anymore. I changed my mind! Couldn't do it. I have to much respect for the car.
So I've got to sell it, if I want this project to be done sooner. Or hold on to it and wait. But even if I sell it, most of the money will be put away for my son.
I have a 1989 TTA that I am thinking about selling. They only made 1555 of them and mine is #13. So I am haveing a hard time making my mind up on that part. But I never drive it anymore. I was going to build it....but when I found out that they dont make the 109 blocks anymore. I changed my mind! Couldn't do it. I have to much respect for the car.
So I've got to sell it, if I want this project to be done sooner. Or hold on to it and wait. But even if I sell it, most of the money will be put away for my son.
Thanks!
12-16-2009, 04:19 PM
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In my case with the gas and I dont know about the other guy but I will be 93 oct. I really agree with what you said about the nitrous and the water/meth thing. I didnt thing that they was right about that. Thanks for clearing all that up with the safer subject and the meth and nitrous thing also.
. I didnt thing that they was right about that. Thanks for clearing all that up with the safer subject and the meth and nitrous thing also.
12-16-2009, 04:21 PM
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Yep. Reducing back pressure is usually a very good idea, especially with a turbo setup. If you have back pressure issues, the resulting higher temperatures around the exhaust valves can create the conditions that trigger detonation or worse, pre-ignition. The increased detonation will pretty much eliminate adding any more timing untill it is addressed.
