valdeztke

iTrader: (1)

Over the years I've come to learn that this board and others like it offer great advice and input on various aspects of the LS motor and tuning...then you venture to a forum dedicated to tuning like HP Tuner or LS1 Edit and you learn even more.

One thing I noticed is the senior guys more expert level tuners frequently rip apart tunes that were done by "professional tuners" using terms like PE Raping or modded canned tunes.

My question is how do you KNOW if you have a "quality" tune and/or tuner?

I've had great experiences at shops, both in quality of work and customer service only to find the tune on the vehicle to "work", but not be done to what an experienced tuner would consider "proper".

Your thoughts on this topic?

Mike454SS

iTrader: (4)

Well...this isn't quite what everyone discussed here https://ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagn...s-ls1-god.html but it's a start.

As for guys saying things like "PE raping" or "Injector raping"...if you don't have the software to pull a tune back out of the car and actually look at whats inside of it, you may not be able to tell. Generally, if things are "raped" in your tune, when the weather changes, or when you go to a different altitude, the car will not correct for it properly, and the tune will be "off"...it's something that closed loop may correct for some, not entirely, but some...you may notice it in a weird driveability issue you don't have at the altitude/weather it was tuned for, or it may ping, or it may not get the best gas mileage anymore...or you might only be able to notice it in a scan tool when looking at things like your long term fuel trims...

In the past, tuning wasn't as widespread, and the PCM's weren't as great to work with either. There are a LOT of people who got started back then, who found shortcuts to get a vehicle to run decent and make good power...there were others who spent the time to really really try to get the calibration perfect, and they had to do a lot of work to get there...there were a couple e-mail lists that you could subscribe too, and there were some difficult to navigate digests online that had some data in them...but as it was still much newer than it is now...a lot of the people who were good at it, were much less willing to say "this is how I do what I do". With the newer PCM's, and with some recent books/DVD's and a lot of other things happening, more and more people have the information available to them that should enable them to properly calibrate things in the PCM and give the car a "proper" tune. The newer PCM's are significantly easier to work with also. For example, an 80's F-Body with a TPI setup, be it the really crappy MAF they got at first, or the 730 speed density ECM they got later on...you have to remove a chip and burn your tune in, and then plug it back in...you start doing that too many times and you start to get issues with the chip not making a good physical contact with the board anymore and new problems begin to appear.

Then came the LT1 stuff...flash based yes...but SUCKED to flash...took seemingly forever to flash, and when the software first came out, the cooling fans would run the entire time making you wonder if the battery in the car really was any good...with all of the older packages, the scanning software and tuning software were independant, sometimes the units were different, the scanning packages weren't as flexible in terms of custom histograms, they didn't talk to the ALDL at a baud rate nearly as high as the newest stuff does (I can remember trying to datalog some older TBI cars/trucks and getting only a couple frames of data per second...IF that)...so if you wanted any meaningful data back then, you had to start putting oscilliscopes on the car and probing sensor data for yourself, AND figuring out what it meant...an oscilliscope still has it's place...but MUCH less often now...plus in the past, when we realized we didn't have access to a table that we really did NEED access to...we had to ask for them to update the software, and depending on who we were working with (TunerCat has always been great about this) sometimes we'd have an update in a day...sometimes not for weeks/months/years...so we'd HAVE to cheat...or hex edit the raw code ourselves and hope we didn't make a mistake.

Now we get to the LS1 stuff. We can flash an LS1 based car in 25 seconds, if you go with the big brand name packages (like EFILive or HPTuners) the scanning and tuning software are combined, and you can set them up to view the data in the same units (of your choice), you can setup the scan tool to build you a custom histogram that can essentially show you EXACTLY what you need to change...if you setup the histograms enough, you can almost tune the car with copy and paste...hell HPTuners (and maybe EFILive as well) even come with histograms setup that do quite a bit of that for you.

Because of that, we now see more and more people crop up to tune cars...some of them still decide to take shortcuts...for example, if the car is too rich at full throttle, they say "well the PE EQ ratio table controls full throttle, so I'll just change that" and they lean it out...they're still not looking at it and understanding that that table REALLY is a factor in commanded/desired AFR, and that it's an input to that equation (like the MAF or VE table) that is really to blame with regards to why the engine is too rich at full throttle...it's a quick solution to get the AFR to look right on the dyno, and it's not a big multi-axis table (like the VE table is) so it's the cheaters way out.

People have become less and less tolerant of that BECAUSE the software we have available to us now IS so good and because the correct calibration information for things like injectors and what not IS readily available (for not a whole lot of money either...though there are still those who I feel are thieves who want it for free), and because we have these internet forums dedicated to tuning, including those owned/operated by the software companies and sections like this on LS1Tech where people can discuss it and search for info on it easier...it's a whole different ballgame than it used to be...and the excuses for not doing it "right"...were already few and far between and now there really are none.

Thats my 2 cents...take it for what it's worth...an opinion...everyone has opinions.

valdeztke

iTrader: (1)

Great write up Mike.

I agree with you 100% that the more accessible and shared tuning talk becomes the less of a mystery it all is. With that you'll have people call out "pro tuners".

On HP Tuner I posted a tune from one of my cars. It had a MAF tune by Charlie at RPM and then down the road I believe A&A tuned the SD on it. Posted both tunes up on HP Tuner forum and man...did those guys rip it apart. Not to say the quality of either shop is into question.

Do you think that when one shop tosses in a canned tune, tweaks a few things and has the car ready to roll shortly after (thus saving them money and time) the other guys have to do the similar to "keep up"? I understand using files from similar makes, motors and mods to get a rough baseline then dialing it in, but I feel like too many guys shoot for a Commanded AFR = Actual and once they are in less than 1% of error; call it quits.

It seems like the advancement in software is a blessing and a curse all in the same. Sure the average Joe can now clear DTCs and have full access to all his engine parameters..which if used wisely w/ a full understanding can be both an exciting and rewarding hobby. Then again that same Joe could read Greg Banish's book once and start tuning cars in the neighborhood, create a website, pay IB to be a sponsor and WALL LAAH! You've got a new "tuner".

Mike454SS

iTrader: (4)

I am at work...so I don't want to reply completely right now (I have to get work done)...but what you said at the end caught my attention. I haven't read Greg's book, I trust that it's great information, and I plan to purchase it when funding allows just so I have use of his injector calibration data...however, something I've been considering for YEARS now, is what you said at the end, I've been tuning cars in the neighborhood, and I want to expand, create a website, pay to be a sponsor, and be a "tuner"...but I'm actually concerned that due to just what you said...people may feel that I'm just another of "those guys who read this book and is an expert"...when really I've just been working with tuning for a long time, and I'm FINALLY after years...becoming more comfortable and more willing to tune for people that I'm not already friends with as a business...tough call for me to make I guess.

valdeztke

iTrader: (1)

I feel tuning is just ONE part of a tuning business. You have to excel at the business part, which some fail at. Personally I tend to focus on what tuners are saying here on forums. People like Frost, Ed and Jesse always have great input and are helpful. I don't want to go down the slippery road of "free help" vs "paid help" (that is going on at the God's thread).

In the end, be kind and GOOD at what you do and word of mouth is the true victory with any business.

kjhallex

iTrader: (1)

Truth!

WeathermanShawn

iTrader: (1)

Wow, what a provocative question! It a good one though.

All I can say is that I am in the tuning 'hobby' end of it. I got the tuning software and have spent the last year going over every table, logging, getting idle and spark down, etc.

I think the WOT part of the tune does require some dyno time and as long as the airflow calibrations are done correctly (MAF & VE Table) then WOT tuning can be done. But who ever does a VE Table for every RPM and MAP? Because, it is the idle and part-throttle issues that takes a lot of work to nail down. And even when utilizing the MAF, the VE Table still contributes to your airflow calculations and fueling requirements.

IMO, the shop(s) that would map a VE Table, calibrate the MAF, determine your Idle Airflow, and 'zero' out your Fuel Trims would be the shop I would utilize.

Might cost $800+ dollars, but that would be a great tune.

Otherwise, you take the plunge..learn tuning, and utilize the dyno for WOT purposes.

Good question. I like the way you asked it. Hope the discussion stays as professional as it has so far. These are the type of threads that I learn a lot. I would be interested to hear some other opinions...

..WeathermanShawn..

WhiteRhino

iTrader: (6)

I think Mikes 1st post sums it up. Unless you have the software yourself, you really don't know what you have. I agree in the past that the tune basically had to be "fudged". If it was "fudged" by a better tuner was what mattered. Most people lived with the small issues. With the tools and info available today, there really is no reason not to tune "correctly". I do see some tuners still set in their ways though. Some are taking classes and learning the most recent ways of tuning as well. Such as correct injector tables and stuff.

One thing I think that is bad for people starting out is all the misinformation. You have to weed through all the b.s. But the info is getting better due to places like this, hpt, efi, etc. As well as the books and classes that can be taken.

People spend thousands on their rides. From motors to tranny's, rearends, etc. If you're not willing to buy tuning software and learn. I feel that you should research tuning as much as you can. Ask lots of questions to the tuner you choose and understand it's going to cost more to get a better tune, as well as take more time. Not two or three dyno pulls and you're out the door. I was uneducated in the past about tuning. Like many others I bought the tuning software and do it myself now.

mike13

iTrader: (27)

Let's say I have a tune by a tuner or myself, the command PE matches the wideband and changes to the PE stay parallel to the WB, car runs without any issues, KR, idle, cold start, etc. Is that a sign you might have a good tune?

The reason is because I hear people talk about stft, ltft and I haven't seen a tune yet that when you look at the datalogs isn't adding or subtracting fuel during the vehicle operation. I've seen posts by respected tuners who say their stft's and ltft's don't fall where they'd like but the car runs great and when they try and adjust the trims they still fall out of the range they prefer.

WeathermanShawn

iTrader: (1)

If the command PE matches your wideband and you have no issues..yea that is probably a good tune. But, one could argue that to get that PE perfected, you normally have to have either your VE Table nailed down, or MAF Calibration Table tuned to perfection.

The Trim issue is normally a problem when you have to deal with Positive Trims. Thats a hassle. And do tuners normally disable COTP, which can alter fueling if running with cats?

My Trims average~ -1 to -3 %. One could argue that if you are running closed-loop, not having wildly deviating Trims makes for a lot smoother part-throttle ride. The car gets real 'jerky' if Trims are wild..

Thats been my experience. But, for WOT having the correct AFR that you are commanding is half the battle.

..WeathermanShawn..

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

There are many ways to control fueling, MAF, PE, VE, MAP, IFR and a combination of all. Ask this and you will get a ton of answers to why use what. If you use any of the above and your fueling stays constant thru cruise and wot then is that the wrong way to do it? and if so, who is to say its wrong.

mike13

iTrader: (27)

That's good to know, my tune as an example has the trims right in the ballpark during in gear idle, cruise, light throttle but pulls about 8% or higher in park, stalled auto with 221/221 cam

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

Sounds like a pretty decent tune. I wouldn't worry about 8% in park. No load....

FWIW, GM calibrations are not very close. They are meant to be a one size fits all. This is the reason for LTFT. The PE table by GM is what we would call a "PE rape" because they weren't allowed to modify the MAF table. Once the MAFs were calibrated, they were what they were. ALL WOT fueling had to be done with the PE table.

Is a GM factory calibrator any better at performance tuning, just because he's a factory calibrator? I would say no. Unless they're trying to make big azz cams run as close to stock as possible, they can't be as good as a good performance tuner, AT PERFORMANCE TUNING. There are alot of "tricks" to making them run well, that have nothing to do with the way they're calibrated at the factory.

Just my .02

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

The tuners job is to make the computers job easier to self adjust. Pretty simple.This holds to most cars out there unless you go OLSD then the tuner sets the tables to what they want.

Throughtout the years I've learned that there is not just 1 way to tune.There are many ways that get the same results.Different combinations can call for a certain way to tune it in to run good.

The important part is that the car runs good when done and the tune doesn't adjust itself out of range.

Thats a simple explanation.

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

Exactly what he said.....

valdeztke

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for all the feedback guys, especially those of you who are tuners yourself.

I know, as many have stated, you have to meet the intersection of time vs money. It seems most people would agree a thorough tune would average $800-$1000, yet the average tuner charges much less.

I don't want to draw an assumption that if you aren't being charged $1000 you don't have a good tune. I understand in many cases once a tuner has given blood and sweat to get a solid tune for model X and Package Y - they SAVE IT. That way when Joe's friend John comes in for Package Y in Model X - you can easily copy/paste 90% of everything and cut the time in 1/3.

But with this train of thought, someone buying a well researched and previously completely build would be a recipient of the previous tuners work thus taking up less time from the tuner. In this case the consumer is paying for the previous research, over and over and over. Which is a great profit model for the tuner (trust me - I'm am in NO way saying this is wrong or bad. Its profitable and thats what counts).

In the end I believe shops that will have a long life and a "cult following" do two things right:

A) Incredible work results
B) Great customer service

Public Enemy

very good explanation! OLSD is as far as you can control without using o2 sensors and maf calibration.

adding to this, the tuner must know how the airmass is calculated in each car/ecm he is tuning and how each sensor/actuator effects the engines fueling and ignition timing.

mike13

iTrader: (27)

couldn't agree more, I would like to add that a good tuner also understands what's going on with the car not just taking data and making it fit parameters. That's important because you can try and give the motor what it wants instead of trying to make it work with what you think it should have.

I've seen people get the idle afr and transient fuel to be spot on and the car runs worse. They didn't take into account that the info they where getting from the sensors needed to be weighed against the overlap of the cam and lack of vacuum off idle.

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

You hit it Mike, I had a car once, Big nasty cam with lots of overlap, Sheet Metal Intake ect. Getting the fuel trims at negative caused the idle to be not stable, throttle response was lacking and driveability has issues. Of course all other parameters were adjusted VE, Maf ect. But once the trims were at a slight positive, the motor idled great, street manners were perfect and at wot the A/F stayed spot on....This is what that motor wanted.

hellbents10

iTrader: (10)

Another point to hit on is a good tuners ability to pick up on and solve problems as they come along. Knowing when to put the computer away and trouble shoot actual problems instead of "tuning around them".

As we all know when making a lot of changes to a car all at once problems can arise.