Automotive News, Media & Press - 370Z: Failure

Just got my new issue of Car and Driver and read the article about the 2009 Lightning Lap at Virginia International Raceway. There were some very impressive times this year but one that wasn't so impressive: The 370Z. Its brakes are so bad that not only could they not hold up to track use, but the car actually crashed. The pedal just went to the floor when they tried to slow down for one of the turns, resulting in the 370Z smashing into the retaining wall.

Note that NONE of the other cars had this problem. There were no other brake failures, no other cars had their brakes drop to the floor. When inspected, it was discovered that nothing had broken, the poorly designed brake system had just overheated resulting in temporary but near deadly loss of braking.

How does this happen in a car thats supposed to be track ready?? Thats the entire idea behind the NISMO package, that its for the track. A major part of the problem lies in Nissan's shitty calipers. Instead of using Brembos on a $40,000 car, they chose to use their own calipers, which are garbage. Nissan blamed the brake pads, which also makes no sense considering there wasn't just an increase in force needed to stop, the pedal actually dropped dead to the floor.

Here's the link:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/the_lightning_lap_2009-feature

i h8 nissan. this is just fueling my fire

thats a shame i like the looks of the 370z i think itd be perfect with an ls3

thats a shame i like the looks of the 370z i think itd be perfect with an ls3

It still would be. You'll just need to go with a complete aftermarket brake replacement. ;)

Should be no surprise considering the massive disaster that is the GT-R.

Shame though, I actually like the 370z. The only problem I had with it is that the interior is way too small for me. But then i'm 6'2" 200lbs so I guess the car is just not designed for guys of my stature..

They've got a side bar about that story in the same issue talking about how Nissan's engineer's said the brakes needed to be upgraded for nismo package, but the bean counter's wouldn't do it. I would bet they were excited they failed in this test so they can strong arm the upgraded brakes they wanted to put on there.

Just another reason why accountants shouldn't be allowed to make engineering decisions. It's been happening at GM for years and look what happened.

This will be good....hey guys I brought popcorn!!

http://www.busywomensfitness.com/images/popcorn.jpg

Let the beating begin!!!:D

Off the topic but it looks like the ZR1 had the fastest lap.

Watch for a new break replacement for these cars. I still think 370s are decent cars. Not everyone that buys them are going to be running them on the track like this, therefore the break issue wont really be a problem IMHO.

Try doing repeat 100mph+ of nailing the brakes with our stock F-bodies and see how soon you have no brakes. Maybe the first try. If you are driving a car on the road course you need road course brakes. If you go to the drag strip, you need drag tires. Same concept. I don't expect track brakes on a 35-40K car, maybe on a 50k car like a Z06.

Try doing repeat 100mph+ of nailing the brakes with our stock F-bodies and see how soon you have no brakes. Maybe the first try. If you are driving a car on the road course you need road course brakes. If you go to the drag strip, you need drag tires. Same concept. I don't expect track brakes on a 35-40K car, maybe on a 50k car like a Z06.

Thats not exactly a fair comparison at all. The 370Z Nismo, and a 4th gen Fbody are 2 different cars, with 2 different purposes. The 370Z Nismo car was designed around track duty. The Nismo package is supposed to be the upgraded handling and performance package. The car simply did not hold up to its hype.

I fail to see your point.

On another note, alot of magazines aren't exactly raving about the ZR1's handling characteristics. It was the fastest car around the track, pulled the hardest G's right behind the X-Bow, but they say it is just plain scary to drive. They say it is extremely finiky, and will come out from underneath you really quick.

Thats not exactly a fair comparison at all. The 370Z Nismo, and a 4th gen Fbody are 2 different cars, with 2 different purposes. The 370Z Nismo car was designed around track duty. The Nismo package is supposed to be the upgraded handling and performance package. The car simply did not hold up to its hype.

Exactly right...the f-body is a muscle car...a stoplight racer...etc. What does it need good brakes for?

The 370z is a definitive sports car. It needs good brakes. These days we have certain standards for all types of cars, and one that certainly applies here is that a modern sports car needs to have brakes that can handle a hot lap or two. Not necessarily a day of racing, but at least a good hard run. On top of that this Nismo Z was supposed to be a track car. So it needs brakes that can handle a day of racing.

On another note, alot of magazines aren't exactly raving about the ZR1's handling characteristics. It was the fastest car around the track, pulled the hardest G's right behind the X-Bow, but they say it is just plain scary to drive. They say it is extremely finiky, and will come out from underneath you really quick.

640hp will do that. Believe me I know from personal experience...at that power level, there's no front engined platform that won't be finicky...in fact I dare say the correct word is scary. In a car like that, you are not really driving it, you are respectfully asking it not to kill you.

In a car like that, you are not really driving it, you are respectfully asking it not to kill you.

Cerbera Speed 12, up in this mother fucker!

http://www.ssip.net/upload/tvr-cerbera-speed-12-side-2_77.jpg

640hp will do that. Believe me I know from personal experience...at that power level, there's no front engined platform that won't be finicky...in fact I dare say the correct word is scary. In a car like that, you are not really driving it, you are respectfully asking it not to kill you.

640HP is definitely the problem, if you can call it that. The ZR1 was exiting the corners as quick as anyone, if not faster. If you are driving a light, 640hp, RWD car, and giving it gas out of a corner going 70+mph, you have to expect it to be a little bit scary.

I was very surprised to see the Grand Sport was quicker than the R8. It still doesn't quite make sense to me.

640hp is a bad excuse for shitty handeling. ferarris FXX has 850hp and they dont bitch about its handeling any or the pagani and porsche and plenty of others with similar hp

640hp is a bad excuse for shitty handeling. ferarris FXX has 850hp and they dont bitch about its handeling any or the pagani and porsche and plenty of others with similar hp

The ZR1 obviously isn't a shitty handling car by any standards.

Lets compare Nurburgring times.
Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 - 7:26.4
Pagani Zonda F Clubsport - 7:24.7
Ferrari 430 Scuderia - 7:39

I wouldn't say the ZR1 fairs too bad considering the price of its competition.

All the editors are saying is it will get away from you if you aren't completely focused... but you can't exactly say it handles bad. Going around the track at a high rate of speed in a 640hp car is not for the faint of heart.

I also remember watching a clip of Top Gear with the Pagani Zonda. I forget who was driving, but they were losing control constantly. The only person that could get the car around the track quickly was the Stig. Thats my recollection of that episode anyways... maybe I don't remember correctly.

Anyways, we are getting a bit off topic.

640hp is a bad excuse for shitty handeling. ferarris FXX has 850hp and they dont bitch about its handeling any or the pagani and porsche and plenty of others with similar hp

The FXX is a totally different platform. Mid engined cars are a whole different animal. I don't know if you have track experience so I don't mean any disrespect, but you can talk to anyone who has driven high powered mid-engined cars close to their limit and they will tell you it's almost like learning to drive again. The car acts very different because of it's architecture. Some people look at this as a good thing, some look at it as a bad thing. Guys who are good at handling high-powered front engined cars will have some advantages over the mid engined cars...coming into a turn too hot in a front-engined car can be corrected by purposely breaking the rear loose and powersliding. That's not happening in any mid-engined car...that driver will be heading for the dirt (or worse - the wall - see video of eddie griffin doing exactly that in an enzo on youtube). That's just one of many examples of the differences in dynamics between the different types of platforms. Front engined cars are often preferred thanks to lower maintenance costs and generally better reliability. Mid-engined cars get preference in some cases because they tend to be alot easier to drive at the limit...however that doesn't mean that they handle better.

I also remember watching a clip of Top Gear with the Pagani Zonda. I forget who was driving, but they were losing control constantly. The only person that could get the car around the track quickly was the Stig. Thats my recollection of that episode anyways... maybe I don't remember correctly.


It was James May, and then James put his "helmet" on so he could drive much much better ;)

It was James May, and then James put his "helmet" on so he could drive much much better ;)

Haha I remember now that you mentioned the helmet. That was hilarious.

Haha I remember now that you mentioned the helmet. That was hilarious.

I love that part so much haha. Stig wearing James's purple/pink striped shirt is one of my favorite topgear memories.

its a very simple thing... as power goes up, speed goes up, yur focus must also go up when driving fast because the speed does not allow for fuck ups and slow reactions.

i think its hilarious the ZR1 smoked an Ariel atom, LP670 lambo, audi, etc. around the track..

thats just retarded thats the 370Z Nismo comes with nissan calipers.....i used to own 2004 track edition 350Z and it came from the factory 6 fawking years ago with brembro's and it performed great around the twisties!

In a car like that, you are not really driving it, you are respectfully asking it not to kill you.

bwahhahaaaa awesome!!!!

640hp is a bad excuse for shitty handeling. ferarris FXX has 850hp and they dont bitch about its handeling any or the pagani and porsche and plenty of others with similar hp

You could not be more wrong if you think any of those cars deserve anything less than widow maker status. More power and higher limits=more scary.

Here is a quote from the article: "Eventually, the Lambo came alive when we really started pushing it and the track warmed up: Some of the rear-end grip went away, which allowed us to rotate the big Lambo into corners and get the power down sooner."

Notice that the car went faster as grip went DOWN. The most "planted" car is not always the best handling or the fastest. The ZR1 is faster due in large part to its handling (the straights showed if anything it had a slight power disadvantage to the lambo).

Lots of cars experience brake fade. On a magazine rag doll car I wouldn't doubt the brake fluid hasn't been changed since it left the dealer. In which case it's been beat to death, and the brake fluid is probably junk. Those cars are like orgy whores, and just get passed around.

The 370Z is still a good car, with I'm sure a decent brake setup.

the braking issue has nothing to do with the calipers. The brakes are made I believe by akebono, which is like the japanese brembo. The brakes on those cars are pretty damn serious. but they must put fuckin autozone pads on those things. With a pad change I doubt you'de ever have a problem even at the track

Try doing repeat 100mph+ of nailing the brakes with our stock F-bodies and see how soon you have no brakes. Maybe the first try. If you are driving a car on the road course you need road course brakes. If you go to the drag strip, you need drag tires. Same concept. I don't expect track brakes on a 35-40K car, maybe on a 50k car like a Z06.

Interesting you should make that comparison, considering the Mustang GT in this test is equipped with basically the same exact brakes as LS1 F-bodies came with, being dual piston PBR aluminum calipers up front and single piston aluminum calipers in the rear. Same size rotors up front as well.

Yet the Mustang GT didn't experience any dramatic fade, the pedal never even got close to touching the floor, and the car never crashed.

Track brakes should come on any car thats designed to be driven in a performance manner. Power is useless without control, and a large part of that control is brakes. Nissan sells you a $40,000 370Z with the NISMO package, which is basically the track pack according to the Nissan website. yet they equip it with a shitty brake system and inferior calipers.

My '08 Cobalt SS came with Brembos from the factory, there is no excuse for Nissan cheaping out on them.

the braking issue has nothing to do with the calipers. The brakes are made I believe by akebono, which is like the japanese brembo. The brakes on those cars are pretty damn serious. but they must put fuckin autozone pads on those things. With a pad change I doubt you'de ever have a problem even at the track

Thats basically an insult to Brembo. Akebono is best known for their calieprs that came on Jeep Grand Cherokees. Not high performance brake systems.

Look at the Nissan GTR, Subaru STI, and Mitsubishi Evolution. All equipped with Brembos, even though Brembo is Italian and Akebono is Japanese. They wanted good brakes, not something thats going to fail after 2 laps, which is why they went with the best. Theres a reason Brembos are used on almost all high end performance cars, and its because they are top quality.

The brakes on the 370Z obviously aren't "serious", or the car wouldn't have crashed. Pads won't make the pedal drop to the floor either. The 350Z had track pads, and those brakes were still horrible. You honestly think all the other cars in the test were equipped with track pads?? No, they were equipped with OEM pads designed for street and light track use. Yet nobody else had this problem. Don't try and make excuses, Nissans entire brake systems are junk.

Interesting you should make that comparison, considering the Mustang GT in this test is equipped with basically the same exact brakes as LS1 F-bodies came with, being dual piston PBR aluminum calipers up front and single piston aluminum calipers in the rear. Same size rotors up front as well.

Yet the Mustang GT didn't experience any dramatic fade, the pedal never even got close to touching the floor, and the car never crashed.

Track brakes should come on any car thats designed to be driven in a performance manner. Power is useless without control, and a large part of that control is brakes. Nissan sells you a $40,000 370Z with the NISMO package, which is basically the track pack according to the Nissan website. yet they equip it with a shitty brake system and inferior calipers.

My '08 Cobalt SS came with Brembos from the factory, there is no excuse for Nissan cheaping out on them.

Agreed. The stock 4th gen brakes are far from the best but they hold up fairly well and were often praised by the rags for their fade resistance.

In one of my favorite old road and track articles a 2001 SS beat the M roadster, S2000, slk320 and boxster S around Thunderhill Park.

The z's brakes, harsh engine, and overall performance is embarrassing for a $40k car advertised as a track toy.

All the more reason to buy a base 370Z for ~$30k and go from there :drive:

All the more reason to buy a base 370Z for ~$30k and go from there :drive:

If Nissan's "track" brakes are that bad, I can only imagine how bad their standard brakes are....

Probably about the same... which is why I said "go from there." IE; don't leave it stock ;)

Yeah a lot of the time it's cheaper to buy a lower end model and upgrade it than buying a the higher end one.

Yeah a lot of the time it's cheaper to buy a lower end model and upgrade it than buying a the higher end one.

Cheaper...could be...stupid? yes, IMO. You will end up modifying them both right? So, why go with the lower end of the spectrum when the higher end is a better "modding" base to start with. What you say is only true if both models (cheap and high end) share the same mechanics and the difference is cosmetic, if the best drivetrain and engine is in the high end model...why not getting that instead?:chug:

Cheaper...could be...stupid? yes, IMO. You will end up modifying them both right? So, why go with the lower end of the spectrum when the higher end is a better "modding" base to start with. What you say is only true if both models (cheap and high end) share the same mechanics and the difference is cosmetic, if the best drivetrain and engine is in the high end model...why not getting that instead?:chug:

Well it's one thing when you're talking about the higher end model having a better drivetrain or a lighter chassis. But in the case of cars like the base Z vs its optioned performance model, all you're talking about is some slightly better factory suspension parts. Aftermarket replacements will beat that out all day long. I would never pay extra on a toy like the Z for better suspension, brake pads, or tires. Those are things I'd likely replace myself anyways.....and with far better hardware than OEM stuff.

So it has shitty rotors..... is it that big if a deal?

So it has shitty rotors..... is it that big if a deal?

On the car that is supposed to be "track prepped?" I'd say so.

So it has shitty rotors..... is it that big if a deal?

More like shitty pads, calipers, and rotors. Basically a really shitty brake system on a $40,000 car that supposed to be "track ready".

More like shitty pads, calipers, and rotors. Basically a really shitty brake system on a $40,000 car that supposed to be "track ready".

I thought they said the pedal went to the floor. Which is indicative of boiling brake fluid, and considering solids aren't compressible, its most likely what is at fault. I don't recall this happening with any f-bodys that were magazine tested. Not that it couldn't happen.

I would like to see a retest of the car with new/better brake fluid, and see if that makes a noticeable difference.