View Full Version : WTF - 57rwhp form a 100 wet shot (Dyno chart inside)


SUPER_CHEVY
03-02-2010, 10:37 AM
Had my car dynoed last week and it made 433RWHP/489RWTQ on motor and 490RWHP/570RWTQ on spray. Mods are: TR custom cam speced by predator-z (231/240 .643/.608 112+4), TSP-PRC 5.3 stg 2.5 heads, TH400, custom 4000 stall by FTI, TNT F2 (100 shot), 3.73 gears, LS6 intake and Full bolt-ons.

As you can see in the charts I've only gained a 57hp form 100 shot where the dual nozzle TNT with a 100 shot should make 125whp.

In should be noted that the bottle that I used on the dyno used at the strip with a 300 shot and it wasn't with a pressure gage nor a heater and those two runs was on an open cutout, running on 95 octane fuel and TR6 plugs.

It run an AFR of 13.03 NA which is good, but with the shot it was rich (11.31) Is that can be caused when I run out nitrous or from a low bottle pressure?

Could you guys please help me on that?

N/A
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/dynamometer-results-comparisons/217386d1266968224-490-570-h-c-n2o-through-th400-na_open_cutout.jpg

N20
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/dynamometer-results-comparisons/217385d1266968224-490-570-h-c-n2o-through-th400-n2o_open_cutout.jpg

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 10:43 AM
the a/f on the spray looks good maybe a little rich but you want it that away

i would say you need to get a heater and a pressure gauge

ive seen the kits not hardly work at all when it is cold and they have no pressure:engarde:

SUPER_CHEVY
03-02-2010, 10:52 AM
the a/f on the spray looks good maybe a little rich but you want it that away

i would say you need to get a heater and a pressure gauge

ive seen the kits not hardly work at all when it is cold and they have no pressure:engarde:


I already got my brand new TNT bottle filled which shows a 900 PSI and I get my heater installed on it, and I'm planning to give the dyno a visit next week to see the improvements. BUT I'm just wondering if that only will help or there is another thing wrong (AFR, timing, the kit it self, pressure, tune.. etc)

Thanks anyway.

99_Z_155
03-02-2010, 11:18 AM
Im not trying to be funny, but have you checked the lines and/or jets for obstructions? maybe that pressure isnt even making it to the engine? are you running a nozzle or a plate? is the nozzle set up and aimed correctly? have you tested the setup off of the car, like say into a five gallon bucket? this will eliminate the ideas of problems with the kit. then you can go deeper into where the problem is on the engine side. plugs too cold, spark blowing out?

BigDB
03-02-2010, 11:21 AM
Ur gonna lose more thru a auto especially with a higher stall. Bottle pressure will affect the A/F so raise it up and ull gain some of the power back. Im not expert but Id say a 112 LSA is kinda tight for a N2O cam and ur RPM range so ur losing some power there also

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 11:27 AM
I already got my brand new TNT bottle filled which shows a 900 PSI and I get my heater installed on it, and I'm planning to give the dyno a visit next week to see the improvements. BUT I'm just wondering if that only will help or there is another thing wrong (AFR, timing, the kit it self, pressure, tune.. etc)

Thanks anyway.

thats a good start,their could be an infinite number of things wrong but your a/f looks fine to me

on a nitrous car you want it to be in the mid 11 range

i would put my money on it being the bottle pressure right now

i ran without a heater for awhile,even though you have 900psi when you hit it your bottle instantly loses pressure so it wont maintain the full amount without a good heater throughout the whole pass

i always tried to get my pressure around 1000 psi before a pass

87silverbullet
03-02-2010, 11:35 AM
the a/f on the spray looks good maybe a little rich but you want it that away

i would say you need to get a heater and a pressure gauge

ive seen the kits not hardly work at all when it is cold and they have no pressure:engarde:

thats a good start,their could be an infinite number of things wrong but your a/f looks fine to me

on a nitrous car you want it to be in the mid 11 range

i would put my money on it being the bottle pressure right now

i ran without a heater for awhile,even though you have 900psi when you hit it your bottle instantly loses pressure so it wont maintain the full amount without a good heater throughout the whole pass

i always tried to get my pressure around 1000 psi before a pass

You are both wrong. 11:1 is too rich by any means.

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 11:56 AM
You are both wrong. 11:1 is too rich by any means.

i said mid 11 on the a/f and also stated that it is still a little rich

i dont know about you but i always tried to keep my a/f on the spray around 11.8 to 1

im not saying this is right just what i do to make sure my car is safe and i know quite a few that run in that area

to me it is much better to lose a little power from being rich than it is to go lean and fry something

ryarbrough
03-02-2010, 01:19 PM
Pics of the plugs?

SUPER_CHEVY
03-02-2010, 02:57 PM
Im not trying to be funny, but have you checked the lines and/or jets for obstructions? maybe that pressure isnt even making it to the engine? are you running a nozzle or a plate? is the nozzle set up and aimed correctly? have you tested the setup off of the car, like say into a five gallon bucket? this will eliminate the ideas of problems with the kit. then you can go deeper into where the problem is on the engine side. plugs too cold, spark blowing out?

Actually, I bought the kit from a guy who store it out of service for a long time and it was dusty and when we were install we test it and the nitrous jet was not working but after some hittings it works :D

The TNT FII is power ring kit, which is similar to the plate.

I don't not think that there is a problem in the kit it self. The plugs isn't too cold, the TR6 plugs is in the mid range which is recommended by everybody.

SUPER_CHEVY
03-02-2010, 03:03 PM
Ur gonna lose more thru a auto especially with a higher stall. Bottle pressure will affect the A/F so raise it up and ull gain some of the power back. Im not expert but Id say a 112 LSA is kinda tight for a N2O cam and ur RPM range so ur losing some power there also

It is a nitrous friendly cam as recommend by both Predator-z and Partick-G.

SUPER_CHEVY
03-02-2010, 03:06 PM
Pics of the plugs?

Unfortunately,, NO

streetassasin
03-02-2010, 03:07 PM
switch your plugs to a ngk br7ef gapped at .030 and put a pressure gauge on it

vicouSS00
03-02-2010, 03:40 PM
i feel your pain brotha

87silverbullet
03-02-2010, 03:45 PM
i said mid 11 on the a/f and also stated that it is still a little rich

i dont know about you but i always tried to keep my a/f on the spray around 11.8 to 1

im not saying this is right just what i do to make sure my car is safe and i know quite a few that run in that area

to me it is much better to lose a little power from being rich than it is to go lean and fry something

Being rich will lift ring lands also. You are still leaving power on the table. You would want your A/F in the mid 12's. But for the true test forget the wideband and Read Your Plugs. Ask the big boys (ATVracer, BAKED, Shiznity, JL-ws6) and they will tell you to read your plugs.

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 04:00 PM
Being rich will lift ring lands also. You are still leaving power on the table. You would want your A/F in the mid 12's. But for the true test forget the wideband and Read Your Plugs. Ask the big boys (ATVracer, BAKED, Shiznity, JL-ws6) and they will tell you to read your plugs.

i would agree with the plugs but for a newbie i dont know if they woulkd even know what to look for

camscam02
03-02-2010, 04:03 PM
i would agree with the plugs but for a newbie i dont know if they woulkd even know what to look for

Who cares if they dont know what to look for, tell them the right/safe plug to run nomatter what they know or not. No reason to run the tr6 when you can run the non projected 7 or 8 be more safe and make the same power on motor.

The car needs br7ef's gapped around .030 and get the bottle pressure up to 900-950 with a full bottle. then put it back on the dyno and got from there. Case closed

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 04:19 PM
Who cares if they dont know what to look for, tell them the right/safe plug to run nomatter what they know or not. No reason to run the tr6 when you can run the non projected 7 or 8 be more safe and make the same power on motor.

The car needs br7ef's gapped around .030 and get the bottle pressure up to 900-950 with a full bottle. then put it back on the dyno and got from there. Case closed

we were talking about knowing if you are lean or rich from looking at your plugs not which one to run

thanx for chiming in though

87silverbullet
03-02-2010, 04:40 PM
i would agree with the plugs but for a newbie i dont know if they woulkd even know what to look for

That's what those guys I mentioned earlier are for. They have been helping viscious00 on here by reading his plugs on here and giving him suggestions on timing and fuel. Our new mod who just responded (camscam02) will lend a helping hand if needed.

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 05:19 PM
That's what those guys I mentioned earlier are for. They have been helping viscious00 on here by reading his plugs on here and giving him suggestions on timing and fuel. Our new mod who just responded (camscam02) will lend a helping hand if needed.

im done, i never said anything to this guy about plugs,i told him that he needs to get a bottle heater and a pressure gauge which will probably help him get some of that 100 shot to the tires

he is losing some of that from being too rich but im sure he isnt like the ones mentioned earlier who want every tenth they can get,he probably would rather have a safe setup that isnt pushing the threshhold of kaboom

supermod chimed in saying i told him the wrong plug so i corrected him

camscam02
03-02-2010, 05:22 PM
im done, i never said anything to this guy about plugs,i told him that he needs to get a bottle heater and a pressure gauge which will probably help him get some of that 100 shot to the tires

he is losing some of that from being too rich but im sure he isnt like the ones mentioned earlier who want every tenth they can get,he probably would rather have a safe setup that isnt pushing the threshhold of kaboom

supermod chimed in saying i told him the wrong plug so i corrected him

Supermod to the rescue, I got this and the other thread mixed up and for that I apologize to you.

But he does need a #7 plug in it, get the pressure right and have a full bottle and try again.

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 05:28 PM
Supermod to the rescue, I got this and the other thread mixed up and for that I apologize to you.

But he does need a #7 plug in it, get the pressure right and have a full bottle and try again.

gotcha no big deal,it is pretty crazy how quick things change i seem to remember when i started using n2o that tr6 was all i heard from everyone

i ran them for years without any issues,never sprayed over a 200 shot though

87silverbullet
03-02-2010, 05:32 PM
Same here. My buddy ran a 150-175 shot for years on a tr6, never an issue. Things change and we are here to learn from the more experienced guys.

camscam02
03-02-2010, 05:50 PM
I ran them as well, but quickly learned from the more experienced and the older guys ( aka my dad) why the use of a non projected plug is needed in a nitrous application. The tr6's work, but there is a better choice out there so that is what we all recommend now.

Trying to get the tr6 out of the picture to help everybody out.

Texas_WS6
03-02-2010, 07:15 PM
Being rich will lift ring lands also. You are still leaving power on the table. You would want your A/F in the mid 12's. But for the true test forget the wideband and Read Your Plugs. Ask the big boys (ATVracer, BAKED, Shiznity, JL-ws6) and they will tell you to read your plugs.

I am kind of confused here, if you are saying 11:1 is too rich and can cause the ring lands to lift then someone needs to call the GM engineers and let them know they are programming these cars to command at wide open throttle the following EQ ratio.























0
400
800
1200
1600
2000
2400
2800
3200
3600
4000
4400
4800
5200
5600
6000
6400
6800
7200

EQ Ratio
11.48
11.48
11.48
11.48
11.58
11.67
11.26
11.37
11.50
11.55
11.58
11.61
11.56
11.55
11.59
11.60
11.62
11.35
11.31


Man they are going to have a bunch of warranty issues!!!

I tune cars all the time and yes I shoot for 12.8:1 AFR on a naturally aspirated car, but when tuning a Nitrous or Forced Induction car I target 11.8:1 AFR. Yes there is power left on the table, but in order for my customers to get that extra power with leaner AFR's on FI tunes they can not run pump fuel because of detonation issues. They would have to run something like VP116 race fuel, which will kill their NB O2's.

Also for a side note, reading a cars plugs that is not running the PCM in Open Loop only will be of no use (in determining Lean/rich conditions) because the PCM will target/command 14.7:1 AFR(or stoic) any time the car is not at wide open throttle, so the lean condition will burn off any residue left and make the plug look lean. I am sure those guys you mentioned are looking at plugs on a car that has been tuned to run Open loop only while it is being tuned or they are looking for signs of detonation to help determine the timing the car can safely get to. My point here is in the OP situation, reading the plugs will not tell him if he is too rich.

OP, I am sure your situation is caused from the bottle pressure, and a little from the large stall you have. Large stalls will eat up power on the dyno. Speedcrazy, BigDB and Camscam02 are correct in their advice to you. The reason your AFR is 11.3:1 instead of 11.8:1 is because the bottle pressure was down probably due to temp. You will see the power you expect once you have the bottle heater on it correctly. The only other thing from a tuner stand point that could also be causing the power to come down could be if the PCM is seeing a little knock and is in return pulling timing. I am sure your tuner can iron out any issues like that for you.

Good luck and keep us posted.

ATVracr
03-02-2010, 07:39 PM
Dont listen to Texas WS6 its pretty clear he doesnt know much about nitrous.
If you dont know how to get a clean plug much less read one you should stick to turbos.

Rich is not safe, more motors are hurt bing rich than lean. Hell we have yet to hurt one being lean and we run our 400 shot at 13.0 A/F

I would not reccomend for anyone else to do that but its a fact.
For a 100 shot car run the 7 plugs and shoot for low to mid 12's on the A/F ... pull 5-6* of timing.

Texas_WS6
03-02-2010, 08:00 PM
Thats funny, I have personaly been running nitrous cars since 1988. I have never had issues with nitrous shots up to 500hp. I have been running nitrous on my old Mopars engines, Pontiac engines, and now the LS stuff. Just because I have my turbo car in my sign does not mean I have never had or run anything else. You are very quick to judge me when I gave you credit, yes you are whom was referenced and I in turn gave you credit.

Nevermind me, I am just one of those old racers who has run most everything.

Texas_WS6
03-02-2010, 08:02 PM
By the way, would you mind educating me as to what I am wrong about?

ATVracr
03-02-2010, 08:20 PM
1.I am kind of confused here, if you are saying 11:1 is too rich and can cause the ring lands to lift then someone needs to call the GM engineers and let them know they are programming these cars to command at wide open throttle the following



2. I target 11.8:1 AFR. Yes there is power left on the table, but in order for my customers to get that extra power with leaner AFR's on FI tunes they can not run pump fuel because of detonation issues. They would have to run something like VP116 race fuel, which will kill their NB O2's.


3. Also for a side note, reading a cars plugs that is not running the PCM in Open Loop only will be of no use (in determining Lean/rich conditions) because the PCM will target/command 14.7:1 AFR(or stoic) any time the car is not at wide open throttle, so the lean condition will burn off any residue left and make the plug look lean. I am sure those guys you mentioned are looking at plugs on a car that has been tuned to run Open loop only while it is being tuned or they are looking for signs of detonation to help determine the timing the car can safely get to. My point here is in the OP situation, reading the plugs will not tell him if he is too rich.



Maybe my post was harsh I'll tell you what I dont agree with.

1.If GM is so great why do you retune cars to 12.8 A/F on motor?
Running a car with a stock tune at 11. whatever is different than running a car with nitrous.

2. There are ways to run the A/F leaner on pump gas and not have detonation issues. (plugs, timing)

3. Is my biggest issue.
If you cut the car off before you lift the computer is out of the picture.
Done it for years with stock computers.
The plug is the ONLY thing you can look at that will tell you what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Closed or open loop doesnt matter, you can read plugs and if your spraying nitrous you should look at them to get the tune right, once its right I would just spot check them every now and then.

I am no nitrous guru but I did stay at a holiday in all weekend. :chug:

87silverbullet
03-02-2010, 08:26 PM
By the way, would you mind educating me as to what I am wrong about?

If it came down to you or ATV to tune my car, I think I would end up picking ATV.

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 08:30 PM
Maybe my post was harsh I'll tell you what I dont agree with.

1.If GM is so great why do you retune cars to 12.8 A/F on motor?
Running a car with a stock tune at 11. whatever is different than running a car with nitrous.

2. There are ways to run the A/F leaner on pump gas and not have detonation issues. (plugs, timing)

3. Is my biggest issue.
If you cut the car off before you lift the computer is out of the picture.
Done it for years with stock computers.
The plug is the ONLY thing you can look at that will tell you what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Closed or open loop doesnt matter, you can read plugs and if your spraying nitrous you should look at them to get the tune right, once its right I would just spot check them every now and then.

I am no nitrous guru but I did stay at a holiday in all weekend. :chug:

1. He didnt say they were great just that that is the way it is.
2. I usually find that there is more power to be had trough the timing than a measley half a point a/f ratio.
3.Yes you can cut the car off and hope you can role off the track and to a good spot so you can read your plugs and hopefully not have to push your car a mile.Which is not reasonable for most unless you have someone to drag you around.I do agree that checking the plugs is a good idea and is a good way to see what is really going on but on the same token I would not recommend telling a new user of the juice to check his plugs and dont watch the wideband.

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 08:35 PM
Being rich will lift ring lands also. You are still leaving power on the table. You would want your A/F in the mid 12's. But for the true test forget the wideband and Read Your Plugs. Ask the big boys (ATVracer, BAKED, Shiznity, JL-ws6) and they will tell you to read your plugs.

"forget the wideband and read the plugs"

just incase you didnt see it

ATVracr
03-02-2010, 08:36 PM
1. He didnt say they were great just that that is the way it is.
2. I usually find that there is more power to be had trough the timing than a measley half a point a/f ratio.
3.Yes you can cut the car off and hope you can role off the track and to a good spot so you can read your plugs and hopefully not have to push your car a mile.Which is not reasonable for most unless you have someone to drag you around.I do agree that checking the plugs is a good idea and is a good way to see what is really going on but on the same token I would not recommend telling a new user of the juice to check his plugs and dont watch the wideband.

1. OK :confused::confused:

2. you should not do that timing will hurt the motor WAY before running it to lean will.

3.Its not hard I do it EVERY pass.
I am not saying to not use a wideband we use ours to get us in the ballpark but a single wideband averaging 8 cyls. wont tell you how much hotter #7 runs compared to #2 but thats a whole other subject.

Maybe I'm getting to precise for a guy running a 150 shot but if I was tuning my car on a 150 shot its what I would do.

87silverbullet
03-02-2010, 08:43 PM
I'm out. Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack:hijack: didn't mean to tear up your thread here.

Get with the guys I mentioned in my previous threads they will point you in the right direction They are not running fast and shooting big shots for no reason.

Good luck with your car. Do your research and find the bset way to tune your car

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 08:49 PM
1. OK :confused::confused:

2. you should not do that timing will hurt the motor WAY before running it to lean will.

3.Its not hard I do it EVERY pass.
I am not saying to not use a wideband we use ours to get us in the ballpark but a single wideband averaging 8 cyls. wont tell you how much hotter #7 runs compared to #2 but thats a whole other subject.

Maybe I'm getting to precise for a guy running a 150 shot but if I was tuning my car on a 150 shot its what I would do.

2.Im just saying if it comes to me getting another degree or two of timing with a little richer tune I think i would go that route as long as there are no signs of knock(detonation) and it makes more power.If it doesnt give more power than there is no use in the timing anyway.

3.At my track the return road is probably 3 times as long as the track and most of us dont have pit crews and golf carts to drag us around.
You didnt say to forget the wideband but it was said.And I agree with the rest of your statement.

And sorry to the OP,IM done.

Texas_WS6
03-02-2010, 08:52 PM
Maybe my post was harsh I'll tell you what I dont agree with.

1.If GM is so great why do you retune cars to 12.8 A/F on motor?
Running a car with a stock tune at 11. whatever is different than running a car with nitrous.

2. There are ways to run the A/F leaner on pump gas and not have detonation issues. (plugs, timing)

3. Is my biggest issue.
If you cut the car off before you lift the computer is out of the picture.
Done it for years with stock computers.
The plug is the ONLY thing you can look at that will tell you what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Closed or open loop doesnt matter, you can read plugs and if your spraying nitrous you should look at them to get the tune right, once its right I would just spot check them every now and then.

I am no nitrous guru but I did stay at a holiday in all weekend. :chug:

As for #1, my point here is that 11:1 AFR is not going to lift the ring lands as SilverBullet suggests. Running that AFR under nitrous will not do it either, before EFI cars became popular, carbed cars ran nitrous at the tracks all the time with AFR at WOT greater then 11:1 all the time with large shots. I did not state 11:1 would make the most power, but I did state 11.8:1 for a normal 95% of the time user's street/strip car that is running pump fuel is safe to help control detonation while under the shot.

As to #2, you are right there are several things a user can do to run leaner on pump gas.

As to #3, you are correct, if you kill the car at the end of the run you take the PCM switching from Open Loop to Closed Loop out of the question, and the rest of #3 you are correct on.

Now why would you instantly slander me like you did without first quizzing me as to what I stated? I still do not see anything I stated as incorrect, I did not give direction in procedure to read plugs. I only stated exactly what the PCM does and why what it does can erase what the plugs can tell you.

I never once stated or implied you did not know what you are talking about, nor will I, and I am puzzled as to why you are so quick to flame me personally.

ATVracr
03-02-2010, 08:59 PM
2.Im just saying if it comes to me getting another degree or two of timing with a little richer tune I think i would go that route as long as there are no signs of knock and it makes more power.If it doesnt give more power than there is no use in the timing anyway.

3.At my track the return road is probably 3 times as long as the track and most of us dont have pit crews and golf carts to drag us around.
You didnt say to forget the wideband but it was said.And I agree with the rest of your statement.

And sorry to the OP,IM done.

2. you will blow up alot of motors tuning that way.
If you see knock on a stock computer its to late. DO NOT count on knock sensors to tell you the motor is detonating.

3. Put a old plug and spark plug changing tools in the car and pull a plug or 2 at the end of the track. Did that for years before we got a enclosed trailer and a 4 wheeler.

ATVracr
03-02-2010, 09:03 PM
As for #1, my point here is that 11:1 AFR is not going to lift the ring lands as SilverBullet suggests. Running that AFR under nitrous will not do it either, before EFI cars became popular, carbed cars ran nitrous at the tracks all the time with AFR at WOT greater then 11:1 all the time with large shots. I did not state 11:1 would make the most power, but I did state 11.8:1 for a normal 95% of the time user's street/strip car that is running pump fuel is safe to help control detonation while under the shot.

As to #2, you are right there are several things a user can do to run leaner on pump gas.

As to #3, you are correct, if you kill the car at the end of the run you take the PCM switching from Open Loop to Closed Loop out of the question, and the rest of #3 you are correct on.

Now why would you instantly slander me like you did without first quizzing me as to what I stated? I still do not see anything I stated as incorrect, I did not give direction in procedure to read plugs. I only stated exactly what the PCM does and why what it does can erase what the plugs can tell you.

I never once stated or implied you did not know what you are talking about, nor will I, and I am puzzled as to why you are so quick to flame me personally.


Sorry, its a knee jerk reaction in here.
There are so many newbs that come in here giving bad advice that it gets tuff to keep saying thes ame things sometimes.

Dont take it personal I'm an asshole sometimes. :)

Texas_WS6
03-02-2010, 09:06 PM
I have been a member of this forum since 2003 and during this time I have seen allot of changes take place here. I remember the days when people came here looking to flame people and dismiss everyone trying to prove something instead of looking to help people with their LSx questions. I for one was glad to see the forum move away from that and to a more friendly atmosphere were people could ask questions and get all kinds of help without being scared to be criticized for asking or answering. I am sure you did not mean to flame me personally. I would ask everyone here to try and refrain from doing so. The OP will get more positive info if we do this, and the forum will continue to be the best source for LSx info on the web.

Texas_WS6
03-02-2010, 09:11 PM
Thanks man, I too am an asshole, just ask my wife and you will get an ear full. I know what you mean with answering the same question over and over. Now let me be clear on this, I have never know everything, and I have been known to be wrong, so if you ever see me say something that is wrong, please do not hesitate to correct me. All I ask is not to make me look like the idiot that I am :)

Texas_WS6
03-02-2010, 09:31 PM
Had my car dynoed last week and it made 433RWHP/489RWTQ on motor and 490RWHP/570RWTQ on spray. Mods are: TR custom cam speced by predator-z (231/240 .643/.608 112+4), TSP-PRC 5.3 stg 2.5 heads, TH400, custom 4000 stall by FTI, TNT F2 (100 shot), 3.73 gears, LS6 intake and Full bolt-ons.

As you can see in the charts I've only gained a 57hp form 100 shot where the dual nozzle TNT with a 100 shot should make 125whp.

In should be noted that the bottle that I used on the dyno used at the strip with a 300 shot and it wasn't with a pressure gage nor a heater and those two runs was on an open cutout, running on 95 octane fuel and TR6 plugs.

It run an AFR of 13.03 NA which is good, but with the shot it was rich (11.31) Is that can be caused when I run out nitrous or from a low bottle pressure?

Could you guys please help me on that?

N/A
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/dynamometer-results-comparisons/217386d1266968224-490-570-h-c-n2o-through-th400-na_open_cutout.jpg

N20
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/dynamometer-results-comparisons/217385d1266968224-490-570-h-c-n2o-through-th400-n2o_open_cutout.jpg

Getting back on track,

Is the short block a stock bottom end or is it a built forged piston short block? What compresson ratio is it? Do you plan to run pump gas while you are spraying or do you plan on runing some kind of racing fuel? If so what kind exactly? Have you upgraded the cooling system, if so what engine coolant temp do you expect to run when juicing it? I am sure this is a dumb question, but are you also having it tuned for nitrous? Is this a street strip car, or a drag car, or a full all out competition car? What is your race weight? What is the alltitude at our location? Lots of questions I know but the more info you can give the better answers you will get.

Texas_WS6
03-02-2010, 09:36 PM
I'm out. Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack:hijack: didn't mean to tear up your thread here.

Get with the guys I mentioned in my previous threads they will point you in the right direction They are not running fast and shooting big shots for no reason.

Good luck with your car. Do your research and find the bset way to tune your car

Also, after re-reading my first responce, I think I need to appoligize to you for the horses ass way I responded to your posting, with the "Call GM engineers" thing. I should have not been sarcastic like that to you. Sorry man.

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 09:42 PM
2. you will blow up alot of motors tuning that way.
If you see knock on a stock computer its to late. DO NOT count on knock sensors to tell you the motor is detonating.

3. Put a old plug and spark plug changing tools in the car and pull a plug or 2 at the end of the track. Did that for years before we got a enclosed trailer and a 4 wheeler.

2. Okay, I didnt say I wouldnt check for signs of detonation.For years tuners have used the methods of go to the limit and then back down,may not be the best way but im just stating that since you act like Im an idiot that doesnt know how this stuff works.If this guy were running stock pistons i definitely dont think he needs to run the nitrous with a mid 12 a/f but Im sure it can be done lets just hope he doesnt have any issues.

3.This is all fine and I completely agree that checking the plugs is a good way to be sure and dont have a problem doing it myself.My problem is that you guys kinda get a little technical with guys that might not know enough to be told to do something such as "forget the wideband and read your plugs".

and I completely agree with Texasws6,you guys are flaming on people for making legitimate suggestions.


Okay now Im really done

WS6Power
03-02-2010, 09:42 PM
#1 what jets are you using? The TNT kit is a duel nozzle design so the math is totally different than a single nozzle design. #2 install some NGK 7`s. #3 get a pressure gauge try it with 1000psi. #4 tune it with a wideband AND read plugs 6,7,&8! Good luck, I love my TNT kit.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
03-02-2010, 10:10 PM
I have not read through all this but I do have a few questions.

What jets are in the nozzles?
What plugs and gap?
What is the base timing N/A and what is it on the nitrous?

I seen your airfuel was 11.3. 11.8 would be more idea to see the power coming around. to only see 57 hp even with that though there is something else that has me interested.



For thye guys argueing about airfuel this is my take. You will find alot opinions on this and the truth is I give different advice to different people for tuning in the airfuel.

Someone like ATV, Shiz etc I would have no problem telling them to tune the car by reading plugs and shooting for a 12.5 airfuel or leaner but for the average street guy (ls1tech I feel that would be horrible advice and I would suggest no leaner than 11.8 and no richer than 11.5.

Let me explain why. When giving advice I feel you need to concider who you are giving advice to. I also feel you need to concider in which manner they are using there car and what there abilities are.

Someone like ATV, Shiz, Smith, RPM, etc are using there cars in a complete different manner than someone using there acr as a weekend warrior. There knowledge and abilities are far more advanced than someone newer to the sport. Someone like the guys mentioned here are more than likely or should be pulling there plugs between every pass. There cars are race cars. They do there own tunning and they have the ability to make educated decisions to stay on top of there tune up. Therefore running a more aggressive tune to get every ounce of power out of there set up is more understandable for them.

Now for someone that does not have a great understanding of reading plugs or tunning there own car advising them to run a more aggressive tune is setting them up for failure. For someone that is looking for a safe all around tune that will not be looking at there tune everytime they take the car off the trailor or yanking the plugs after every pass I would suggest the 11.8 range. At 11.8 airfuel there may still be a few horses left compared to a leaner more aggressive tune but the truth is its safe. It will still make good power and the guy can have non stop reliable results.

It is important to compare these differences when trying to provide someone with help. I have learned sometimes you have to feed someone knowledge slowly as there knowldge grows from experience and allows them to obsorbe the knowledge correctly.. YOu would not strap a guy use to driving a 15 second honda in a seven second camaro would you? Same goes for advice.

Dave

speedcrazy2
03-02-2010, 10:15 PM
I have not read through all this but I do have a few questions.

What jets are in the nozzles?
What plugs and gap?
What is the base timing N/A and what is it on the nitrous?

I seen your airfuel was 11.3. 11.8 would be more idea to see the power coming around. to only see 57 hp even with that though there is something else that has me interested.



For thye guys argueing about airfuel this is my take. You will find alot opinions on this and the truth is I give different advice to different people for tuning in the airfuel.

Someone like ATV, Shiz etc I would have no problem telling them to tune the car by reading plugs and shooting for a 12.5 airfuel or leaner but for the average street guy (ls1tech I feel that would be horrible advice and I would suggest no leaner than 11.8 and no richer than 11.5.

Let me explain why. When giving advice I feel you need to concider who you are giving advice to. I also feel you need to concider in which manner they are using there car and what there abilities are.

Someone like ATV, Shiz, Smith, RPM, etc are using there cars in a complete different manner than someone using there acr as a weekend warrior. There knowledge and abilities are far more advanced than someone newer to the sport. Someone like the guys mentioned here are more than likely or should be pulling there plugs between every pass. There cars are race cars. They do there own tunning and they have the ability to make educated decisions to stay on top of there tune up. Therefore running a more aggressive tune to get every ounce of power out of there set up is more understandable for them.

Now for someone that does not have a great understanding of reading plugs or tunning there own car advising them to run a more aggressive tune is setting them up for failure. For someone that is looking for a safe all around tune that will not be looking at there tune everytime they take the car off the trailor or yanking the plugs after every pass I would suggest the 11.8 range. At 11.8 airfuel there may still be a few horses left compared to a leaner more aggressive tune but the truth is its safe. It will still make good power and the guy can have non stop reliable results.

It is important to compare these differences when trying to provide someone with help. I have learned sometimes you have to feed someone knowledge slowly as there knowldge grows from experience. YOu would not strap a guy use to driving a 15 second honda in a seven second camaro would you? Same goes for advice.

Dave

there it is

vicouSS00
03-02-2010, 10:43 PM
^x2

I believe dave summed it up for plenty of guys including me. I have a halfway decent setup but it is not my "race car" that i only trailer to the track to race like some of you guys. This is my only car and it has to get me to work and school everyday. Although at the same time I'd like to make damn good power and stay consistent without pushing my buttons every time I go WOT whether i'm on the street or at the track.

Kody-

lsnewbie
03-02-2010, 11:05 PM
Your cam las is good nitrous does better with the higher lsa

ATVracr
03-03-2010, 08:35 AM
I have not read through all this but I do have a few questions.

What jets are in the nozzles?
What plugs and gap?
What is the base timing N/A and what is it on the nitrous?

I seen your airfuel was 11.3. 11.8 would be more idea to see the power coming around. to only see 57 hp even with that though there is something else that has me interested.



For thye guys argueing about airfuel this is my take. You will find alot opinions on this and the truth is I give different advice to different people for tuning in the airfuel.

Someone like ATV, Shiz etc I would have no problem telling them to tune the car by reading plugs and shooting for a 12.5 airfuel or leaner but for the average street guy (ls1tech I feel that would be horrible advice and I would suggest no leaner than 11.8 and no richer than 11.5.

Let me explain why. When giving advice I feel you need to concider who you are giving advice to. I also feel you need to concider in which manner they are using there car and what there abilities are.

Someone like ATV, Shiz, Smith, RPM, etc are using there cars in a complete different manner than someone using there acr as a weekend warrior. There knowledge and abilities are far more advanced than someone newer to the sport. Someone like the guys mentioned here are more than likely or should be pulling there plugs between every pass. There cars are race cars. They do there own tunning and they have the ability to make educated decisions to stay on top of there tune up. Therefore running a more aggressive tune to get every ounce of power out of there set up is more understandable for them.

Now for someone that does not have a great understanding of reading plugs or tunning there own car advising them to run a more aggressive tune is setting them up for failure. For someone that is looking for a safe all around tune that will not be looking at there tune everytime they take the car off the trailor or yanking the plugs after every pass I would suggest the 11.8 range. At 11.8 airfuel there may still be a few horses left compared to a leaner more aggressive tune but the truth is its safe. It will still make good power and the guy can have non stop reliable results.

It is important to compare these differences when trying to provide someone with help. I have learned sometimes you have to feed someone knowledge slowly as there knowldge grows from experience and allows them to obsorbe the knowledge correctly.. YOu would not strap a guy use to driving a 15 second honda in a seven second camaro would you? Same goes for advice.

Dave


I know you think we are giving guys promod tune up advice but I have not told anyone to run there cars the way we do and I wont unless they are trying to do the same sort of things we are.

I'll just say we can disagree on this.... 11.8 is to rich IMO.

Here are Steve Johnson, Monte Smith take on A/F .....
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142204&highlight=A%2FF+ratio

Jeff Prock tells me all the time to run our stuff close to what we run it on motor.

ATVracr
03-03-2010, 08:38 AM
^x2

I believe dave summed it up for plenty of guys including me. I have a halfway decent setup but it is not my "race car" that i only trailer to the track to race like some of you guys. This is my only car and it has to get me to work and school everyday. Although at the same time I'd like to make damn good power and stay consistent without pushing my buttons every time I go WOT whether i'm on the street or at the track.

Kody-

Sorry but none of that has anything to do with the tune being right.
Why cant you have a daily driven car with a good nitrous tune?
Does it need to be rich and down on power because you drive it alot? :confused:

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
03-03-2010, 09:30 AM
ATV,
Not directing my comments directly to you. Hope you did not take it that way. Although I would say you probably started the curve that all the repeat artist are following if you know what I mean.lol ;)

We can agree to disagree on this area.. I still give you props...:chug:

We run our race cars to a clean plug which is around the airfuel you like. Not the street cars we tune though.. And we have tuned more cars than I can recall over the years and have yet to hurt a one of them.. I evaluate each car and owner before decideing what direction I am going to go with them..

Same as I do picking what Nitrous system is best suited for them

Dave

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
03-03-2010, 09:38 AM
Ill read that thread later.. Unfortintly you have to look at Steve, Monty and procks customer base in concideration. There customer base again is not the average LS1 tech, or average street guy. The advice they give on set airfuel is based around the best optimized performance and again there customer base is reading spark plugs and most of them are track only cars..

This is an entirely different market and sometimes you have to protect people from them selfs as they grow in experience. There are many cars that come from the dealer off the show room floor running an airfuel in the 11s. My 2010 camaro was something like 11.4 maybe richer. GM would not give the warrenty they do if they were sending out unsafe tuneups. I have never in my entire carrier seen anyone damage a motor due to an 11.8 airfuel.. Hoever every time I go to the track those good old carburated boys that have that lean mean tune up and dont stay on top of it are poping left and right everytime its a good crisp night..

So my point is the correct answer on where to tune is dependent on the individual and how they are using the car.. Again that is just my opinion.. You know what they say about opinions..lol

Dave

ATVracr
03-03-2010, 10:11 AM
Cant argue with you Dave that makes sense to me.

How do you teach them?

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
03-03-2010, 10:49 AM
Cant argue with you Dave that makes sense to me.

How do you teach them?

Man, I had this nice explanation of how I try to help different people based on there experience level and what they are doing and I even tried to get all fancy and use spell check and it wanted me to update and then I lost it all.. :bang:

Thats what I get for trying to pretend I know how to spell. :D

Long story short. Some customers just need common information. The guys needing more advanced information I try to help them one on one.

Dave

87silverbullet
03-03-2010, 10:54 AM
Cant argue with you Dave that makes sense to me.

How do you teach them?

Sometimes you just can't. They are a stubborn ole' mule that are stuck in their ways. No matter what you do you can't convince them that their "hogged out camel humps" are outdated and don't flow any better that a iron vortec head. Same goes with this nitrous thing. Alot of people out there still have the mentality that richer is safer. Which we all know isn't entirely true. Just keep on teaching, sooner or later they will learn.

moehorsepower
03-05-2010, 08:15 AM
Dave says it all, Right away people jump in without knowing the basics and intentions of the car, Like Tony shepherds car, Yes, even on the Dyno we pull a plug on every pass, Why? we are looking for the most efficient, safe and maximum horsepower levels, Do I do this on an average street car on Nitrous, No. Everyone will have their own opinions, everyone has a method that works for them, I have seen other shops blow up motors on a measly 150 shot. Area of where the cars are being tuned, maybe some states (DA) can tolerate leaner/richer AF, Timing, All this has to be taken into consideration.

BlackScreaminMachine
03-05-2010, 08:35 AM
In should be noted that the bottle that I used on the dyno used at the strip with a 300 shot and it wasn't with a pressure gage nor a heater and those two runs was on an open cutout, running on 95 octane fuel and TR6 plugs.



There has been many post from the start and until now and I have glanced through it but this is the most glaring thing that I see.

Used Bottle (unknown amount of Nitrous). VERY BAD that if you have been running one shot of 300 or 3-2 runs based on a 100-150, either way you should always have a filled bottle, its better for consistancy.

No pressure guage. Very dangerous as if you do heat it up (maybe a hotwater bath, or though a heater, you have no clue where it is at and if you purge it, it drops so you may need to be above the mark your going to make the pull at.

No heater. Working off the 2nd point, again, unless your putting a blow torch to it (very bad, but works, but still creates a hot spot and the Nitrous is not heated evenly like it would with a heated wrap or hotwater bath).

TR-6 Plugs. I am sorry, Tr-6 's are good plugs for a N/A motor making 400+ HP. Unless you run good fuel (which 95 oct is not) your safe window shrinks.

I am all about being safe and considering your wallet. I am a big advocate for running a stand alone Fuel Cell and that will make the most difference becuase you know whats in there, and when the shot is being run, its getting pure race gas (see C16).

In your situation, you probably running with too little Nitrous in the bottle and it is not heated up enough to be purged correctly and thats why the output was not optimal due to the fact you have no clue what was happening with the pressure and avalible nitrous.

ATVracr
03-05-2010, 09:04 AM
300 shot on pump gas, TR6's and throw in the no heater or pressure gauge.

Sounds like a badass set up!

oneBADDz
03-05-2010, 09:20 AM
2.Im just saying if it comes to me getting another degree or two of timing with a little richer tune I think i would go that route as long as there are no signs of knock(detonation) and it makes more power.If it doesnt give more power than there is no use in the timing anyway.

3.At my track the return road is probably 3 times as long as the track and most of us dont have pit crews and golf carts to drag us around.
You didnt say to forget the wideband but it was said.And I agree with the rest of your statement.

And sorry to the OP,IM done.

How do they do that? It would have to go all over the country side :lol: What track is this if you don't mind me asking, I really want to look up a picture of it to see how they routed it.

ShiznityZ28
03-05-2010, 12:26 PM
I am kind of confused here, if you are saying 11:1 is too rich and can cause the ring lands to lift then someone needs to call the GM engineers and let them know they are programming these cars to command at wide open throttle the following EQ ratio.























0
400
800
1200
1600
2000
2400
2800
3200
3600
4000
4400
4800
5200
5600
6000
6400
6800
7200

EQ Ratio
11.48
11.48
11.48
11.48
11.58
11.67
11.26
11.37
11.50
11.55
11.58
11.61
11.56
11.55
11.59
11.60
11.62
11.35
11.31


Man they are going to have a bunch of warranty issues!!!

I tune cars all the time and yes I shoot for 12.8:1 AFR on a naturally aspirated car, but when tuning a Nitrous or Forced Induction car I target 11.8:1 AFR. Yes there is power left on the table, but in order for my customers to get that extra power with leaner AFR's on FI tunes they can not run pump fuel because of detonation issues. They would have to run something like VP116 race fuel, which will kill their NB O2's.

Also for a side note, reading a cars plugs that is not running the PCM in Open Loop only will be of no use (in determining Lean/rich conditions) because the PCM will target/command 14.7:1 AFR(or stoic) any time the car is not at wide open throttle, so the lean condition will burn off any residue left and make the plug look lean. I am sure those guys you mentioned are looking at plugs on a car that has been tuned to run Open loop only while it is being tuned or they are looking for signs of detonation to help determine the timing the car can safely get to. My point here is in the OP situation, reading the plugs will not tell him if he is too rich.

OP, I am sure your situation is caused from the bottle pressure, and a little from the large stall you have. Large stalls will eat up power on the dyno. Speedcrazy, BigDB and Camscam02 are correct in their advice to you. The reason your AFR is 11.3:1 instead of 11.8:1 is because the bottle pressure was down probably due to temp. You will see the power you expect once you have the bottle heater on it correctly. The only other thing from a tuner stand point that could also be causing the power to come down could be if the PCM is seeing a little knock and is in return pulling timing. I am sure your tuner can iron out any issues like that for you.

Good luck and keep us posted.




Open or closed loop has nothing to do with it. cut the car off at the stripe and look at the plugs.....


BTW a lean idle will not burn off anything. pull your plugs after idling and ill pull mine aft6er a 1/4 trip and ill bett 100.00 yours are grey to black and mine look like new. the problem with idle is to cloud the plugs/brown them not clean them up it covers the fuel ring and makes it unreadable.

ShiznityZ28
03-05-2010, 12:31 PM
2.Im just saying if it comes to me getting another degree or two of timing with a little richer tune I think i would go that route as long as there are no signs of knock(detonation) and it makes more power.If it doesnt give more power than there is no use in the timing anyway.

3.At my track the return road is probably 3 times as long as the track and most of us dont have pit crews and golf carts to drag us around.
You didnt say to forget the wideband but it was said.And I agree with the rest of your statement.

And sorry to the OP,IM done.


2.holy shit batman if your using knock to tune n2o go out to the garage get a BFH and smach your laptop.

3,4,5,6,7,8,X . If your not willing to do it right dont do it...

speedcrazy2
03-05-2010, 12:38 PM
2.holy shit batman if your using knock to tune n2o go out to the garage get a BFH and smach your laptop.

3,4,5,6,7,8,X . If your not willing to do it right dont do it...

man you are really getting this going again,ive already stated i can check my plugs and know what to look for

the point was they were telling someone who wouldnt have a clue to forget his wideband and just read the plugs

would you recommend that?if so then i would say you are no smarter than my 5 yr old son

Dave put it better than anyone,you have to account for someone's know how before you go telling them shit like forget your wideband and read your plugs or yeah you can run a nitrous a/f in the high 12's
the OP clearly is not like you guys-he has a street car that im sure he would like to get tuned safely and not on the edge at any time he goes wot on the spray

now can we let this die or do you guys want to keep dragging it out

ShiznityZ28
03-05-2010, 12:45 PM
I would tell them to use the god damn internet and do 30 minutes of reading and you will see what to look for on plugs. or like 30 guys last year post the pics and some of the guys here who know have no issue giving free advice on the tune. you will even get a few different opinions.

I like dave and hes good at what he does and i repect his opinion. But we can disagree. I believe 11.anything is to rich and mid 12's is not on any edge at all. I had a 500 shot on pump gas, atv had 400 dry on pump gas. My brother had a 10.5 150 shot cam only car at 3700lbs, stock rear, stock tranny. Wep ut a stock short block in the 9's with 150,000 miles. the list goes on and on. We have plenty of stock experiance. these were all stock pcm tuned.

Your not the OP and its not your call to let anything die. Feel free to move along...

speedcrazy2
03-05-2010, 12:53 PM
I would tell them to use the god damn internet and do 30 minutes of reading and you will see what to look for on plugs. or like 30 guys last year post the pics and some of the guys here who know have no issue giving free advice on the tune. you will even get a few different opinions.

I like dave and hes good at what he does and i repect his opinion. But we can disagree. I believe 11.anything is to rich and mid 12's is not on any edge at all. I had a 500 shot on pump gas, atv had 400 dry on pump gas. My brother had a 10.5 150 shot cam only car at 3700lbs, stock rear, stock tranny. Wep ut a stock short block in the 9's with 150,000 miles. the list goes on and on. We have plenty of stock experiance. these were all stock pcm tuned.

Your not the OP and its not your call to let anything die. Feel free to move along...

oooooookkkkkkkk good for you

OP let us know how it goes when u get back on the dyno

Texas_WS6
03-05-2010, 02:21 PM
Open or closed loop has nothing to do with it. cut the car off at the stripe and look at the plugs.....


BTW a lean idle will not burn off anything. pull your plugs after idling and ill pull mine aft6er a 1/4 trip and ill bett 100.00 yours are grey to black and mine look like new. the problem with idle is to cloud the plugs/brown them not clean them up it covers the fuel ring and makes it unreadable.


I think we basically said the same thing here. If you let the car switch from Open Loop to Closed Loop, you will get a distorted reading. Yes you are right the best way to insure you do not distort the plugs for reading is to shut the car off right after the pass, regardless if you have the tune set up to be Open Loop all the time or not. If you drive the car in Open Loop back to the pit before you pull the plug, the plug reading will be distorted. I think we are saying the same thing. We are just presenting it in different ways.

I do have one honest question about reading plugs. I hope you will take the time to make me understand. When data logging the pass with a Wide Band I can see were in the rpm band that I am rich or lean of my target, so I can correct those areas. Is there a way to determine the same thing when reading the plugs?

ATVracr
03-05-2010, 02:55 PM
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
I do have one honest question about reading plugs. I hope you will take the time to make me understand. When data logging the pass with a Wide Band I can see were in the rpm band that I am rich or lean of my target, so I can correct those areas. Is there a way to determine the same thing when reading the plugs?


Not really, the plug is telling you what its doing the last 200' or so of the track. (at its hotest point)
What you need to make sure of is that your A/F readings match up with what the plug is telling you. We know what 13.0 A/F looks like on our plugs compared to 12.5. Alot of 02 sensors read a little different so make sure your readings match the plugs.

So once you determine that you want 12.5 A/F (for example) than you can shoot for that across the RPM range and trust that its right.

Hope I explained it right, makes sense in my head anyways ... LOL

ShiznityZ28
03-05-2010, 03:06 PM
I think we basically said the same thing here. If you let the car switch from Open Loop to Closed Loop, you will get a distorted reading. Yes you are right the best way to insure you do not distort the plugs for reading is to shut the car off right after the pass, regardless if you have the tune set up to be Open Loop all the time or not. If you drive the car in Open Loop back to the pit before you pull the plug, the plug reading will be distorted. I think we are saying the same thing. We are just presenting it in different ways.

I do have one honest question about reading plugs. I hope you will take the time to make me understand. When data logging the pass with a Wide Band I can see were in the rpm band that I am rich or lean of my target, so I can correct those areas. Is there a way to determine the same thing when reading the plugs?



No not at all points but withut looking at a plug what a/f do you randomly target? our same car with different heads and or cam has like A/f ranging from 13.0-13.4 i know most will think im crazy...

Also 1 wide band is just an avg of that side of the motor. and we all know #8 and number 2 want 2 different things. We use a wideband as a refrence but we look at every plug every run. we also move our wideband around to different holes then the avg so we have alot of data and can make an educated guess as to what the a/f is and what the plug will look like.

Texas_WS6
03-05-2010, 03:24 PM
Thank makes sense to me, thanks for the response. I have seen two different WB read as much as 1 afr difference (AEM as compared to NGK) and I have always wondered which is right, I can see how the plugs would be the ideal way to determine which one to trust. I also like to use EGT's to help feel comfortable with the WB. I for one am not an expert at reading plugs, I would say I only know the basics to plug reading. I will be bugging you guys latter trying to learn more on this subject.

To the OP, sorry for temporarily highjacking your thread.

Thanks guys for the help.

SUPER_CHEVY
04-16-2010, 07:01 PM
Guys,

Please check the updates

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1267007-update-520-474-h-c-n2o-through-th400.html