View Full Version : what pinion angle with S60? vibration with 1.5 degree


02BLKWS6MD
04-21-2010, 10:04 AM
I just put and s60 in my car with 4.10s and a steel spool. Now Im trying to narrow down the vibration between drivshaft and pinion angle. The driveshaft was made by a well known driveshaft shop and have used them before. I set the pinion angle at 1.5 degrees and get a vibration at about 60mph and up. Im just trying to narrow down diveshaft or pinion angle, I know the spool probably doesnt help it since your not supposed to run them on the street. Let me know what pinion angle your running with your s60.

getusumws6
04-21-2010, 05:06 PM
what do you use for suspension mounts( rear suspension)? rubber,poly, solid, 50/50 ? it all makes a difference. 1.5 is more solid setup, try -2 degrees and see if it improves. make note of when it starts to vibrate.

Jeff400w
04-21-2010, 08:31 PM
I'm running -1 degrees on mine. UMI TA and LCA's. No vibration issues at all.
Does the driveshaft length seem right? A spool should have nothing to do with it if everything in the rear is assembled correctly.
You could try to clamp a small amount of weight to the driveshaft with hose clamps and see if that changes anything. That would point to a balance problem.

kenSS
04-21-2010, 09:07 PM
-2 here. no problem at all. All spohn bushing suspension.

z28 justin
04-21-2010, 09:08 PM
Are you measuring your pinion angle correctly? I was not, until I did this... check the thread out

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/gears-axles/1264933-am-i-measuring-my-pinion-angle-correctly-pics.html

Even after this, I still had some vibration due to unbalanced driveshaft. Even now there is still some noise, it's just the way the chassis mounted torque arm is.

cam
04-21-2010, 09:49 PM
Check your u-joints after they've been run a while. Its not uncommon when installing them to gall the bearing land and create a little tight spot that can lead to vibration. Jr level mistake that can happen at top level shops.

Pinion angle in my experience doesnt affect NVH ( noise, vibration, harshness ) so long as all the other parts supporting the drivetrain are tip top

I run -4 on my street car with no issues at all

02BLKWS6MD
04-22-2010, 01:05 PM
Im running poly bushing on my LCAs panhard and torque arm. Ill try a negative like some of you guys are running as well.

onefastmx5
04-22-2010, 11:30 PM
I'm running 2 degrees on mine, no vibrations, had it up to 120 on the freeway.

When I first set it up I was at 6 degrees (did bad math) and the car shook like an earthquake after 40mph.

02BLKWS6MD
04-28-2010, 04:57 PM
I set it at 0 degrees and still have the same vibration. Sent the driveshaft out to the shop that made it and it came back balanced the same way. I talked to the manager and he said that it came out near perfect and it didnt need any weight. I know it doesnt have to do with the tires because I balanced them out, but they are mickey thompson 275/40/17s. Im really running out of ideas since this was a brand new rear from strange engineering and so was the driveshaft. It almost feels like it vibrates more in 6th gear then in 5th gear if that makes any sense.

cam
04-28-2010, 05:01 PM
Easiest thing to try is find a friend with a car that you can borrow a set of wheels off and try it. In my experience most times a mystery vibration is in the tires its not always the "balance" of the tire that can cause it. Perhaps a slightly shifted belt or the tires index is out of whack etc. These dont always show up when "balancing" your wheels but they sure will shake the crap out of your car at speed if they are bad enough. I had a badly shifted belt years ago that I couldnt figure out. It was shifted right down the tread land so you couldnt easily spot it. The tire looked good, balanced well, but at around 40mph started to shake like hell.

Worth a shot

onefastmx5
04-28-2010, 09:18 PM
I'm assuming you've already tried installed the DS both ways.

Cam may be on the right path... I've seen motorcycle tires do the same thing... must have been a bad batch of new tires. We had like 5 in 1 month, balance perfect but at 40+ it would shake like hell. If you watch very closely when the tire was spinning on the balancer, you could see a small shift in the belt. All those customers recieved new tires and never had a problem after that.

02BLKWS6MD
04-29-2010, 10:34 AM
alright I'll try putting the fronts on the rear and see how it acts. I thought it could be the tires as well since they sat for awhile, but I used them with the 10 bolt as well and didnt have any shaking but I'll try it anyways.

chino_man279
04-29-2010, 11:40 AM
I would check the tires first as was stated. I was chasing a bad vibration last year that started around 40 mph and got progressively worse with speed. The pinion angle did not matter, within reason. Turned out my driveshaft was too short. It looked fine, but when I removed the driveshaft and measured from the face of the tail housing to the front of the rear, it was about 1.25" short. Got a new PST shaft made and all vibrations disappeared. Pinion angle did not matter with the new shaft too. Hope this helps.

cam
04-29-2010, 01:40 PM
alright I'll try putting the fronts on the rear and see how it acts. I thought it could be the tires as well since they sat for awhile, but I used them with the 10 bolt as well and didnt have any shaking but I'll try it anyways.

Another little trick you can try is when you pull the tires off just roll them away slowly on a flat ( like perfectly flat ) concrete surface and watch the tire for wobble. If it wobbles around or back and forth you have a shifted belt somewhere or a rim out of whack.

02BLKWS6MD
05-06-2010, 10:57 AM
I put a different set of wheels on and too the driveshaft out and turn it 180 degrees and still have the vibration. I know the driveshaft isnt too short, i can see about 1/2"-3/4" of the front yoke hanging out the transmission. I'm stumped, we've even called strange and did everything they said and still have the same vibration.

FirebirdStud
05-06-2010, 11:23 AM
I put a different set of wheels on and too the driveshaft out and turn it 180 degrees and still have the vibration. I know the driveshaft isnt too short, i can see about 1/2"-3/4" of the front yoke hanging out the transmission. I'm stumped, we've even called strange and did everything they said and still have the same vibration.

Curious, what did Strange say about this? I have a dana 60 that wont stop vibrating either, really starting to piss me off! I just put a new rear ujoint in, and now from 65 on up it vibrates really bad. UGH!

chino_man279
05-08-2010, 02:50 PM
if you put the rear in the air by putting jackstands under the axle, does it still vibrate? Try this with the tires still on. If it still vibrates continue tearing it down. Then try it with the tires off, but keep the rotors on with the lugnuts. Still vibrating, take the brakes off. Make sure you do not push the brake pedal and shoot the pistons out of the calipers. At this point, you are looking at a problem with the rearend if you are sure the driveshaft is good, as you stated. There is nothing left. You have the spool, axles, and the ring and pinion. I would be sending it back if that is the case.

I have had a rearend vibrate from the rotors of all things. They were cheap generic rotors that had oversized holes, for the center and the lugs!! Got rid of them promptly, problem solved. I did not have the rotor put on perfectly centered causing the vibration.

white01ss
08-10-2010, 10:46 PM
I put a different set of wheels on and too the driveshaft out and turn it 180 degrees and still have the vibration. I know the driveshaft isnt too short, i can see about 1/2"-3/4" of the front yoke hanging out the transmission. I'm stumped, we've even called strange and did everything they said and still have the same vibration.

Hey dude, did you ever solve your vibration problem?

FirebirdStud
08-10-2010, 11:09 PM
Im not the original poster, but I solved mine. With the bigger rear end, it doesnt sit in the car the same. So in order to even out the driveshaft angles, the nose of my rear is sitting upwards with reference to the car. Every internet jockey says you shouldnt do this, but I had to in order to cancel the ujoint angles out and make the annoying vibration go away. BTW, a speed shop here in MN is who told me to do this. Been riding this way for about 3 months now, 2000 miles, and the car hooks like hell! I seriously recomend people do this, as the ujoint angles need to be the same, but opposite, to make the vibration go away. Hope this helps.

white01ss
08-11-2010, 06:20 PM
There is so much internet misinformation on this. I've even argued with some 15+ yr experienced technicians about how using the driveshaft angle method to set pinion angle was totally wrong. They dismiss it because they've done 100s of cars that way and no one ever complained. So if you do something wrong 100 times that makes it right?

So I did my own research and started with the basics. Our drive shaft is called a "Single Cardan Shaft" which has one u-joint or cardan joint at each end. To have the least vibration and power loss the driving shaft and driven shaft angles need to be parallel to each other, otherwise the u-joint's sinusoidal rotational velocities would not cancel each other out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_joint

The angle of the driveshaft is only concerned with the height difference between the ends of the driveshaft and has absolutely nothing to do with the angle of the tranny output shaft. For example, if the tranny is pointed down -3* and the rear end pinion is even with the tranny output shaft so the driveshaft angle is 0*. Using the driveshaft angle method the pinion angle would be set to -1.5*. But wait, this would actually give you a pinion angle of -4.5*. If you wanted a -1.5 you add the tranny angle and rear end angle together like this and end up pointing the rear UP +1.5*. Or +3.0* up for 0 pinion angle. Here's the formula I use to keep things straight.

t = tranny angle
r = rear angle
p = desired pinion angle

t + r = p
r = p - t
r = -1.5 - (-3.0)
r = 1.5

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_joint)

FirebirdStud
08-12-2010, 10:42 PM
^^^ Absolutely!! This is exactly what I did with mine, and NO VIBRATIONS! This is how you must set it up, or you will have a vibration. I have mine set at only a -.5 angle, and it works great on the street. The car still hooks like a bizach so Im leaving it there, because there is no vibes.

MY99TAWS6
08-15-2010, 09:41 PM
Hmm also have bad vibration problems. was thinking broke trans mount or maybe shot output shaft whatever its called that can wobble around but now think its likely this pinion angle thing.

now this stuff is pretty confusing to me but buddy is pro racer. Not sure if he should have done this or not. My trans did seem to have a bad down angle with my 4l80 and dana 60. So he shimmed heck out of the thing to get zero trans down angle to the driveshaft. Then he set the torque arm think how bmr said to.

So should he take out those shims or leave the trans to driveshaft level and then what am I supposed to set the pinion angle to..I am supposed to make it point up a bit not down?

Can someone explain this a bit simpler for me. I have terrible vibrations that get really bad as speed goes up.
I run an adjustable torque arm on my 96 and have no vibrations noticeable at all.

white01ss
08-18-2010, 01:05 AM
Your friend has unfortunately made your problem much worse by putting the transmission at a higher downward angle. I bet your tranny is pointing down more than -3*, say it's -5*. If your rear end was pointing down -1.5 then your real pinion angle is something like (p = r + t), -5 + -1.5 = -6.5. That's could be 5 degrees out of whack!

This process works for me:

1) Pick a desired pinion angle (p).

Rules of thumb for pinion angles:
0 For a pure street car
-1 to -2 Mostly street, some drag duty
-2 to -4 Drag car

2) Measure the angle of the transmission output shaft (t) by measuring off the engine's harmonic balancer or the slip yoke. If your car is level this should be 1-3* pointing down. Use - if it's pointing down, + if pointing up.

3) Calculate what angle the rear end should be with this formula.

r = rear end pinion angle
p = desired pinion angle
t = tranny angle

r = p - t

4) Adjust the torque arm rod-end to set the rear end angle to (r). Remove the driveshaft if a good flat spot isn't available on the rear end.

Examples:

1) Desired pinion angle p = -1.0*
2) Tranny pointing down r = -2.0*
3) r = -1.0 - (-2.0), r = 1.0
4) Adjust rear to point up 1*

1) Desired pinion angle p = -2.0*
2) Tranny pointing down r = -1.5*
3) r = -2.0 - (-1.5), r = -0.5
4) Adjust rear to point down -0.5*

Good explanation of pinion angles:
http://www.jimobalek.com/?p=557

MY99TAWS6
08-18-2010, 10:03 AM
Your friend has unfortunately made your problem much worse by putting the transmission at a higher downward angle. I bet your tranny is pointing down more than -3*, say it's -5*. If your rear end was pointing down -1.5 then your real pinion angle is something like (p = r + t), -5 + -1.5 = -6.5. That's could be 5 degrees out of whack!

This process works for me:

1) Pick a desired pinion angle (p).

Rules of thumb for pinion angles:
0 For a pure street car
-1 to -2 Mostly street, some drag duty
-2 to -4 Drag car

2) Measure the angle of the transmission output shaft (t) by measuring off the engine's harmonic balancer or the slip yoke. If your car is level this should be 1-3* pointing down. Use - if it's pointing down, + if pointing up.

3) Calculate what angle the rear end should be with this formula.

r = rear end pinion angle
p = desired pinion angle
t = tranny angle

r = p - t

4) Adjust the torque arm rod-end to set the rear end angle to (r). Remove the driveshaft if a good flat spot isn't available on the rear end.

Examples:

1) Desired pinion angle p = -1.0*
2) Tranny pointing down r = -2.0*
3) r = -1.0 - (-2.0), r = 1.0
4) Adjust rear to point up 1*

1) Desired pinion angle p = -2.0*
2) Tranny pointing down r = -1.5*
3) r = -2.0 - (-1.5), r = -0.5
4) Adjust rear to point down -0.5*

Good explanation of pinion angles:
http://www.jimobalek.com/?p=557

Umm..if he put shims under trans mount the tranny angle would move up and more positive not negative?????
So all these f bodies have downward angle on the tranmissions? I didn't check pre 4l80 install. Thought had way more downangle with 4l80 due to bmr trans mount?

white01ss
08-19-2010, 08:42 PM
Umm..if he put shims under trans mount the tranny angle would move up and more positive not negative?????
So all these f bodies have downward angle on the tranmissions? I didn't check pre 4l80 install. Thought had way more downangle with 4l80 due to bmr trans mount?

You are correct, I misread your post. There's two places to put shims, between the bushing and crossmember, or between the body and crossmember. I thought he shimmed on the body which would have brought the angle down. So... if your tranny angle is 0, that's makes the math real easy. :D I would start with a 0 pinion angle and see if it improves.

MY99TAWS6
08-19-2010, 09:39 PM
Ok took out the shims .Bmr said shouldn't need them with 4l80 and their crossmember.
So now when measure driveshaft not trans or balancer get negative 3 and when measure read its negative 5. So is that negative 2 now.I hate math.
Bmr says to subtract the numbers so negative 5 subtract negative 3 is same as negative 5 plus positive 3 or negative 2.
Is this math right?
So to get zero now would I need to have negative 3 rear end and negative 3 driveshaft?
So what is 3 on rear and negative 3 on driveshaft postive 6? man i hate this crap.

Low N Slow
08-20-2010, 12:06 PM
You guys are making this way too complicated. Here's a picture of the proper way to set drive line angles. The front angle and the rear angle should be the same degree but opposite. Your tranny output and your pinion should be parallel. No complicated math required.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x253/dugrat/2joint_angle.gif

MY99TAWS6
08-20-2010, 02:43 PM
I think actually had postive driveshaft angle not negative like first thought as driveshaft is pointing up not down at back a bit.
So set torque arm to negative 2 down and if driveshaft is plus 2 this would give zero.
Traffic was heavy so coudn't try out the car at higher speeds. Maybe sunday.
If this don't work then will try to do the opposite trans angle thing. So that will likely necessitate a positive rear end angle as for sure my trans is negative angle.
If don't do that can just dial up the rear to like positive numbers and see what that does.

So anyone else with dana have to go postive to stop their vibes.?

D-Webz
08-20-2010, 03:13 PM
I have a lot of vibration too, I had to replace the rear seal on the tailshaft and the bushing. When I put the S60 and adjusted the pinion angle I had no vibration at all. I stripped out my torque arm mount bolt off the stock tranny mount and put a new UMI relocation/crossmember mount for the Torque Arm. After all that the vibration was horrible. I think my pinion angle was set at zero. I played around with different angles and all and still sounds like crap. I broke down and took it to the shop finally and should hear back today or tomorrow.

Nitroused383
08-21-2010, 05:39 AM
Here is also another decent article http://www.ssz28.com/tech/Pinionangle.html

white01ss
08-23-2010, 08:24 PM
I think actually had postive driveshaft angle not negative like first thought as driveshaft is pointing up not down at back a bit.

How are you measuring the tranny angle? Do not measure the driveshaft angle, measure off the crank balancer, it's the best flat surface to get the tranny angle. The driveshaft angle is not included in the equation, so it doesn't matter. That's the mistake that a lot of people make.