Gen 5 Camaro Tuning, Diagnostics, Dyno results - Handheld tune=camshaft failure!

Just so you know I do not in fact own a 5th gen camaro however I felt I should leave this info to see what you guys think.
My buddy is a mechanic in a town near by and he was telling me about a SS camaro driven by a stripper/ women (usless info but interesting none the less)! The car had just turned over 2000 miles when brought to the shop with complaints on hesitation at around 2000rpm. They went over with a fine toothed come and found nothing... There were no visual mods and car looked well maintained. The problem seemed to get worse the more the car was driven. After the ok from GM they had tore the motor out of it's engine bay and began tear down. Everything seemed fine till the camshaft was pulled now I don't know what lobes specifically that were damaged but there were 3 of them heavily scared and 2 of the 3 were grinded down enough to notice it in a picture showing the whole cam. This was the cause of the loss of power and driving problems. The PCM was shipped to GM from my understanding... Came back with a void warranty due to performance modification to vehicle found in the PCM! I was told the lady after being notified of void warranty, that she had mentioned a handheld programer was used to gain extra performance.
That was what he had told me and he does have a pic that I can see if he atill has so I can upload it to you guys! Let me know what you think as I'm interested to see If this has happened before?

I'll bet the tuner didn't properly adjust the AFM (guessin g it's an auto). The AFM does something to the oil in relation to the lifters IIRC.

Hmm I am no tuner and no mechanich by any means but would the handheld tuners like predator and sct tuners have that capability to change the afm enough to cause failure? I know they prolly can (i have never been for the handheld so I don't know much about them) but would it Allow enough of a change? Again I'm not a tuner nor mechanich by any means but I know a few things lol this tho I'm uncertain of which is why I ask.... I like to learn haha

Interesting, assuming it was an Automatic. I find it very hard to believe that a tune would effect a cam or lifter. Now if they raised the reve limiter and it was a stick car there is potential to hurt the valvetrain. Usualy it's valves hitting the piston, breaking rockers or valve springs that fail in a high RPM situation.

The cam and lifters are very stout parts and can take a lot of abuse. If they can prove that the tune was the problem they can deny the repairs. If they cannot then they must honor the warranty. The problem is that it's going to cost more to fight the situation than to fix the problem.

It's funny that they "tore the engine out from the engine bay" since you don't need to do that to replace a cam and lifters. The shop is adding to the drama from what you are saying.

Robin

Yeah I agree ^^^ but from what I was told GM did in fact void her warranty and she is now left to pay for the repairs. I seen the car myself the day before tear down and they were awaiting GM confromation to go ahead with tear down. I would imagine they could have done/found out what was wrong without taking the engine out but I beleive that it was needed/requested by GM as they were wanting any and all info about the car. I do beleive it was an automatic but I'm not positive. I'll get ahold of him later on today for
the picture and to double Check my story since he told me about 3 weeks ago. But the one thing I did remember was that GM did in fact void her warranty.

Well if they are telling her that they "voided the warranty" then she should seek legal help. I would guess that GM has deniied the warranty claim and by the time it has filtered to you it's being told that they voided the warranty.


IF they tune or re cal can be tied to the parts failure they can deny the warranty claim.

If not then they need to fix the problem.

There is protection under the law for the installation of non authorized parts. Again , if they can tie the tune to the failure she is toast.

I would think that a phone call to the dstrict managers wife from the car owner may sway the situation........ROFLMAO NOT

Post pitures of the parts, it doesn't sound like the dealer was much help in this deal.

Robin

I'll see if I can get ahold of the pics...and yeah the dealer was no help I have talked to the owner and a few of the management guys... Real buttholes IMO!! Owner was even a jerk enough to tell me that if I bought from another dealer that (I worked for in the parts dept) that I would regret it and that also fixing and getting parts for a 08 Saturn would be hard and next to impossible, he also mentioned that by looking at me he could tell I have never worked on a car LOL it was right then that I walked away. I am no mechanich like stated however I do all my own work and when I have a question my brother is a mechanich at the other dealer so this guys "judgement" took away any future sale from me and my family. I'll check in asap once I get the pics

Nice to see you are here on LS1Tech as well Robin.

I read your stuff everywhere on Camaro5.com.

Wow...intrigueing story. I'm sure that the dealer spiffed up the story some too.

Would like to hear the outcome as this has been a heated topic elsewhere too.
-Ivan

:pics::corn::corn:

From my understanding through a tuner here in AZ that told me any tune put in to the PCM will void the warranty period. The PCM and the BCM go hand in hand and basically put a time stamp when power has been pulled/flashed, guess this is upper level technician/GM engineer area. Not sure about the truth to this but this was explained as I called to see about getting the line pressure/limiter raised and shift points moved up on my 2010.

Pic of driver or :gtfo:

Pic of driver or :gtfo:

Hahaha, I wondered who would bring that up.


Robin

I too was told by some GM Techs that they have to prove the part/parts you added or tweaked caused the failure before they can void it. There was an issue where my buddies '04 GTP kept popping transmissions. Well they knew it was modded and GM even sent out one of their techs to check it over. It was determined that there was an issue with the trans maintaining pressure and therefore causing a trans failure. The GM tech said there was no reason he could find that the mods would have caused the failure and he approved the fix. He actually had a rebuilt trans and that failed within 3k miles so the dealer wanted a new one installed and the only way it could be done was if one of GM's specialist's came out to inspect. I believe he even commented on the mods under the hood. His was using a Tuning program, pulley, headers, intake, Intercooler, full exhaust and a cam and they still approved it. If she contacts legal help she can probably get it fixed.

I'll bet the tuner didn't properly adjust the AFM (guessin g it's an auto). The AFM does something to the oil in relation to the lifters IIRC.

So what happeneds if you turn AFM off ? or you adjust it to only run between 675 to 1100 RPMs instead of the factory 675 to 3000?

Interesting, assuming it was an Automatic. I find it very hard to believe that a tune would effect a cam or lifter. Now if they raised the reve limiter and it was a stick car there is potential to hurt the valvetrain. Usualy it's valves hitting the piston, breaking rockers or valve springs that fail in a high RPM situation.

Robin

That sounds right, or maybe one or more of those little rollers fell off the lifter(s).


From my understanding through a tuner here in AZ that told me any tune put in to the PCM will void the warranty period. The PCM and the BCM go hand in hand and basically put a time stamp when power has been pulled/flashed, guess this is upper level technician/GM engineer area. Not sure about the truth to this but this was explained as I called to see about getting the line pressure/limiter raised and shift points moved up on my 2010.

My dealer told me they couldn't turn off the AFM. So I asked them if I did it what about the warantee. They said that should not blow anything up, and that it would only effect the warantee if it was caused by the change. They were a bit vague about it.

I too was told by some GM Techs that they have to prove the part/parts you added or tweaked caused the failure before they can void it. There was an issue where my buddies '04 GTP kept popping transmissions. Well they knew it was modded and GM even sent out one of their techs to check it over. It was determined that there was an issue with the trans maintaining pressure and therefore causing a trans failure. The GM tech said there was no reason he could find that the mods would have caused the failure and he approved the fix. He actually had a rebuilt trans and that failed within 3k miles so the dealer wanted a new one installed and the only way it could be done was if one of GM's specialist's came out to inspect. I believe he even commented on the mods under the hood. His was using a Tuning program, pulley, headers, intake, Intercooler, full exhaust and a cam and they still approved it. If she contacts legal help she can probably get it fixed.

This is very interesting. They all seem to have different opinions and answers about the warantee.

yeah i just wanted to let you know one of the experiences i'd seen. I also saw an '02 Z28 that kept blowing rears because the guy beat the shit outta it. Then after #3 GM voided it due to abuse which is what was happening

IIRC the Tech 3 can identify a flash tune but not the tech 2. Basically even if put back to stock you can still see the change (as mentioned in a previous post in this thread) something about a number that doesn't match in the software code or something like that. Guess they're getting into making sure we don't screw with their tunes, at least while under warranty.

Guess they're getting into making sure we don't screw with their tunes, at least while under warranty.

Thats standard fare from now on unfortunately.:bang:

ok, i didn't want to start a new thread but, how much power could possibly be made by a diablo predator or trinity? Somehow I get the notion that I should stick with bolt on mods like intake, exhaust, to free up a little hp and still be able to get warranty work if needed vs slapping on a tuner and GM finding out when my pcm is scanned and warranty voided.....Thoughts and info?

Thanks!

no one knows anything?? ^^^

I spoke to a GM western regional supervisor last week. His exact words.

"Anything not sold by GM or installed by GM will void the warranty pertaining to that specific part."


So with that said and being, I went and test drove a 2011 GT, way more options and way cheaper than the Camaro. My car has 1600 miles and I'm about to trade it in if the correct deal is put into place.

I'm sorry but voiding the warranty on a sports car for adding after market items is insane. I'm not paying $450 for a cold air, $800 for axle back exhaust or $1000 bucks for coated manifolds by GMPP. I'm a die hard GM guy but this whole warranty deal has turned me away.

I can understand heavy mods, but simple mods..give me a break.

same thing with Ford...you mod the car you take the risk of voiding the warranty.

Now dealer installed accessories are another story, if you can get the dealer to install your "accessories" they are covered by the OEM warranty ;)

same thing with Ford...you mod the car you take the risk of voiding the warranty.

Now dealer installed accessories are another story, if you can get the dealer to install your "accessories" they are covered by the OEM warranty ;)

Ford has a huge line of aftermarket products it stands behind, hence the name Ford Motorsports. Ford will back the warranty if it is a motorsports part that you bring them and they install. I deal with both Ford proving grounds and the GM Regional's on a daily basis and the Ford guys were all about the aftermarket as GM was acting like I had the plague.

GM offers some cheap cold air, a joke for what they call headers and a million dollar axle back. If anyone pays them for those products then they have more money than brains.

Dont get me wrong, I have owned a slew of Fords, Chevrolet's, GMC, Pontiac ect..but I think GM would have hopped on the bandwagon of doing aftermarket parts like Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Dodge ect.. and still standing behind the product.

One of my customers lost a lifter.Car had headers,cold air and a full tune. Dealer warrentied it no problem.

The story happenned to a 3rd person nobody talked to, so I call BS and I'm sure there is some detail we dont have. I vote for a stupid mistake like no rev limiter or the car had a problem from the factory.

You must be unlucky to be involve in this kind of story. I'm sure Ford dealers would try to void anything too if they can. You must find a dealer that will support you in the process..

There was a Q about the gains on a tune; it makes all the the difference on the L99 BTW.

Technically, the dealer should void the part you replaced so yeah thats normal. If you replace the stock headers with aftermarket, they aren't going to warranty aftermarket headers, etc. Same with a cold air kit. GM dealers unfortunately are a hit and miss when it comes to warranty from what i read on here. Some people have cars that are heavily modified and still get covered while others have something small like a ported TB and the whole car is voided.

It's very unfornute for the owner,But if I had to guess this is probably a small dealership,that's about to go belly up,People have been handheld tuning these LS's since 97,And I've never heard of this kinda Bullshit:eyes:

i thought this thread was dead?

i thought this thread was dead?

its back as a zombie now

and again :P

Yup old thread but a good one as far as info and bitching goes lol. I'm a diesel tech for chrysler and our trucks are VERY touchy to tuners, or even CAIs. The CAIs if not maintained (cleaned and oiled) will literally sandblast the intake system (tubing, intercooler, and even fry the cylinders). As for muscle cars though it makes absoluetly NO sense of GM, Dodge, and Ford voiding warranties for people wanting to beef up their muscles cars. Look back in the 60s...Mopar, GM, and FoMoCo DEALERSHIPS were the place to go for perf parts and work. Does Nickey or Dick Harrel ring a friggin bell? They need to stop jacking bolt on parts prices up higher than the nations damn deficit and offer a slew of perf parts and get the interest of modding your car back into the company itself. Offer good CAIs, good quality exhaust, and heads and cam at reasonable prices. It would only help them keep more money withing their company. But oh well corporate assholes will be corporate assholes, that's why we have all these great sponsors listed here>>>

did they unbolt the engine mounts before they tore out the engine??

Just checking out the site and when I read this I had to register to comment.My son the Ford tech came buy to look at his mom's SS last week and asked how do I like that LS3? I said not an LS3 just a truck motor.He said "Oh Jeremy (who works at the GMC dealership) has replaced a bunch of 6.2 cams due to lobe failure.Just wondering if all those Denali's owners bought hand held tuners.

GM bulletin # 09-06-04-02c states in the event ofany powertrain failure or axles, converters, whatever they take a screen shot of the PCM calibration and if its been done and even removed no warranty and remaining powertrain warranty is blocked. This is not up to the dealer.

GM bulletin # 09-06-04-02c states in the event ofany powertrain failure or axles, converters, whatever they take a screen shot of the PCM calibration and if its been done and even removed no warranty and remaining powertrain warranty is blocked. This is not up to the dealer.Funny part is, this bulletin is more popular on the forums than in the real world.

Ask your local GM tech if he has a clue what the CVN history is or how to find it in the tech2....

Funny part is, this bulletin is more popular on the forums than in the real world.

Ask your local GM tech if he has a clue what the CVN history is or how to find it in the tech2....

Hope you are right but not what I've seen. People should be informed that they may lose a warranty.

Hope you are right but not what I've seen. People should be informed that they may lose a warranty.negative. people should read. i know, who reads that shit? take responsibility. it's not up to gm to hold your hand and lay out everything their warranty covers. it is available to you in writing, that you most likely sign somewhere to prove you read and understand it.

with that being said, it's all in who you know at the dealership. if you have an IN, you are golden. i've seen multiple clutches and rearends replaced on the same car under a gm warranty. guess he had a lemon 02 ss :eyes:. also watched a trans get replaced 3 times in an s2000 under warranty. i watched the 2nd one grenade from an 8k rpm clutch dump hahaha.

2011 Chevrolet Camaro V8-6.2L
Vehicle Level Powertrain Management Computers and Control Systems Technical Service Bulletins All Technical Service Bulletins Engine/Transmission - Aftermarket Calibrations


Engine/Transmission - Aftermarket Calibrations


INFORMATION

Bulletin No.: 09-06-04-026C

Date: August 13, 2010

Subject: Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines Using Tech 2(R) or Global Diagnostic System (GDS)

Models:
2006-2011 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks (Excluding Saab 9-7X)
2006-2009 HUMMER H2
2006-2010 HUMMER H3
Equipped with V8 Gas Powered Engines Only

Attention:
This bulletin applies to V8 gas powered engines ONLY. For Duramax(TM) diesel powered engines, refer to the latest version of Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-006G.

Supercede:
This bulletin is being revised to add the 2011 model year. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-06-04-026A (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).

General Motors is identifying an increasing number of engine, transmission and catalytic converter part failures that are the result of non-GM (aftermarket) engine and transmission control calibrations being used.

When alteration to the GM-released engine or transmission control calibrations occurs, it subjects powertrain and driveline components (engine , transmission, transfer case, driveshaft and rear axle) to stresses that were not tested by General Motors. It is because of these unknown stresses, and the potential to alter reliability, durability and emissions performance, that GM has adopted a policy that prevents any UNAUTHORIZED dealer warranty claim submissions to any remaining warranty coverage, to the powertrain and driveline components whenever the presence of a non-GM (aftermarket) calibration is confirmed - even if the non-GM control module calibration is subsequently removed.

Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at time of sale, or subsequently updated by GM. That's because GM testing and validation matches the calibration to a host of criteria that is essential to assure reliability, durability and emissions performance over the life of the warranty coverage and beyond. Stresses resulting from calibrations different from those tested and released by GM can damage or weaken components, leading to poor performance and or shortened life.

Additionally, non-GM (aftermarket) issued engine control modifications often do not meet the same emissions performance standards as GM issued calibrations. Depending on state statutes, individuals who install engine control module calibrations that put the vehicle outside the parameters of emissions certification standards may be subject to fines and/or penalties.

This bulletin outlines a procedure to identify the presence of non-GM (aftermarket) calibrations. GM recommends performing this check whenever a hard part failure is seen on internal engine or transmission components, or before an engine assembly or transmission assembly is being replaced under warranty. It is also recommended that the engine calibration verification procedure be performed whenever diagnostics indicate that catalytic converter replacement is indicated.

The PQC has a process to confirm the ECM/PCM calibration is GM issued. The PQC will require a picture of the engine calibration verification screen, as outlined in this bulletin, before authorizing any V8 gas powered engine replacement.

If a non-GM calibration is found and verification has taken place through GM, the remaining powertrain and driveline warranty will be blocked and notated in GMVIS and the dealership will be notified. This block prevents any UNAUTHORIZED warranty claim submission.

1. Connect the Tech 2(R) to the vehicle.
2. Go to: Diagnostics and build the vehicle.
3. Select: Powertrain.
4. Select: Engine.
5. *Select: Engine Control Module or PCM.
6. *Select: Module ID Information or I/M Information System if the Module ID Information selection is not available.
7. *If "I/M information System" was selected, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.

¤ If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.









8. Take a CLEAR digital picture of the Tech 2(R) Vehicle Information screen showing the engine Calibration IDs and Verification Numbers as shown above. Retain the printout information and the Tech 2(R) screen photograph with the repair order.

Note
All pictures must be sent as a.jpg file.

9. E-mail a copy of the picture to tacsnapshot@gm.com. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern.

Note
The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

10. Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.

¤ If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).


11. You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.


Tech 2(R) Displaying All Zeroes for the Verification Numbers on the Calibration ID and Verification Number Screen







If the Tech 2(R) that you are using displays all zeroes for the Verification Numbers as shown, then perform the following steps:

1. Update the Tech 2(R) with the latest software from TIS2WEB.
2. Turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds.
3. Connect the Tech 2(R) to the vehicle.
4. Turn ON the ignition, and build the vehicle. Observe the Tech 2(R) Calibration ID and Verification Number screen for proper operation.

This information applies to the 2010 Camaro and is typical of the procedure that will be used on Global A vehicles.

1. Turn OFF the ignition.
2. Connect the MDI to the Data Link Connector (DLC) of the vehicle.

3. Connect the MDI to a PC or laptop that has been downloaded with the GDS application from TIS2WEB..

4. Click: On the GDS icon on the PC.
5. The Login Page will appear.
6. Select: A User.
7. The ID Screen will appear.
8. Select: The serial number of the MDI being used.
9. Select: Connect.
10. Verify that the system status is ready by observing for a flashing PC light icon on the MDI.
11. Select: Make, Model and Model Year, in order to build the vehicle.
12. Click: Upload VIN, to allow the VIN to be reported to the PC.
13. At: The Verification step, turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF.
14. Select: Next Action.
15. The Home Page will appear.
16. Select: Next.
17. The Diagnostic Screen will appear.
18. Select: Engine ID, if prompted.
19. Select: Module Diagnostics.
20. Select: ECM.
21. Select: ID Information.
22. The Diagnostics page will appear.


Note
GDS is capable of displaying up to 10 Calibration History events.

23. Select: Calibration History from the drop down menu in order to display the following items on the screen:

- Calibration History Buffer
- Number of Calibration History Events Stored
- Calibration Part Number History
- Calibration Verification Number History


24. Select: Screenshot.
25. Name and save the file in an appropriate folder.
26. Select : Print, and retain a copy of the screenshot with the repair order.


27. E-mail a copy of the screenshot to tacsnapshot@gm.com. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern.

Note
The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

28. Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.

¤ If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).


29. You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.
Warranty Information

- The Dealership Service Management must be involved in any situation that would justify the use of labor operation Z1111.
- Notify the Fixed Operations Manager (FOM) (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada) of the situation.
- All claims will have to be routed to the FOM (WM in Canada) for approval.
- Please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 09-00-89-016, Labor Operation Z1111 - Suspected Tampering or Vehicle Modifications for important information.

























Could be read as a "who you know" thing.

That's BS. Since my car was tuned my dealer has put a new clutch and driveshaft in my car. They tried to get hard with me this last time about my "aftermarket" parts but wound up replacing the driveshaft because a tune and bolt-on's shouldn't be able to shear bolts on street tires and they know that. Now if I melted a piston because it was lean they might kick it back. It is still GM's responsibility to prove the mod or tune caused the problem and 9 times out of 10 they won't bother. The dealer makes money off of warranty claims.

GM uses that bulletin as a scare tactic, I will tell you, and its not myth... a very well known tuner can give a tune the specific CVN locked to that VIN and upon a full reflash of the ECM, the flash count and history will look stock... even on the Global Platform(tech-III)


his "stealth tune" is still a "stealth tune"

what got this lady busted and MOST people busted, is either leaving the tune loader or that their programmer doesn't do a full rewrite... Hptuners can do a full rewrite, HPtuners currently does not have a method on resetting the flash count/history... it can mimic the CVN, which used to help on Tech-II... not on tech-III, so its half way there and in need of an update

My supercharged 2010 had the stock oil pump check valve stick (there is a tsb). This is a pretty modded 630 rwph car we take to shows. After losing oil pressure because of the oil pump, it ended up with a nasty knock. Knowing there was a tsb, and also that everyone claims GM will void you warranty for looking at the engine wrong, I took it in to be fixed under warranty. I figured at the minimum i would get sone entertainment. They sent the PCM calibration with the aftermarket tune out to GM. They still authorized the warranty repair, and replaced the oil pump, and cleaned the pan. After they did it, the car still had a knock. They said they would only fix it if I returned the car back to stock. With it having a blower cam, headers, and what not, that was not worth it just in labor alone. We got the car back, tore the engine down, and found 3 messed up lifters and a ruined cam. The lifter bores were messed up, so I just ordered a new LPE short block. Long and short is despite GM's big meanie TSB on tunes, you having modifications does not free them of liability for warranty service on defective parts they put in your car. The law is very clear the must prove the modification caused the failure. In my case they had a tsb out that oil pumps were defective, and at that point it does not matter if I have a JATO pod on the side of the car..they ate responsible for any damage their defective part causes.

just like the L99 and the AFM lifters... its a known problem, there is a service bulletin about the "tapping" lifters on the L99... a tune is not going to cause that bulletin to get lifted, if you get lifter tap, they'll replace them