Negative Trader Feedback - Thank You Phil Thomas

Phil, I would like to publicly thank you for selling me a 4.00" crank that was slightly bent and cracked on two journals. After purchasing every single part of my 440 LSX brand new, I trusted Phil's word (along with his feedback)that his crankshaft (which was out of his black turbo mustang)was in good condition. This was not the case. After using my local machine shop to assemble the shortblock, the motor lasted 2 dyno pulls due to a loss of oil pressure. I then was in contact with Ken from Eastside Performance who thought the lifters were being pushed too far out of the bore due to the size of camshaft. I then ordered a set a Jessel Linkbar lifters ($1500). After Ken assembled the motor, we encountered the EXACT problem. I have since brought the motor back and BINGO the machinist that Eastside uses magnafluxed the crankshaft revealing that my assumptions of a bad crank were to be true. I know this was over a year ago and Phil already said he would not compensate me. Again thank you Phil for making me spend about $10,000 more then I had to on this motor, just so you could have a few hundred bucks in your pocket. Phil if you would like to contact the machinist feel free to private message me and I will give you his phone number.

so your local machine shop chose to NOT CHECK THE INTEGRITY OF THE USED CRANK before assembling the motor??? Had they done this and showed flaws I'm sure Phil would've taken it back before you installed it and ran it in your motor

Phil, I would like to publicly thank you for selling me a 4.00" crank that was slightly bent and cracked on two journals. After purchasing every single part of my 440 LSX brand new, I trusted Phil's word (along with his feedback)that his crankshaft (which was out of his black turbo mustang)was in good condition. This was not the case. After using my local machine shop to assemble the shortblock, the motor lasted 2 dyno pulls due to a loss of oil pressure. I then was in contact with Ken from Eastside Performance who thought the lifters were being pushed too far out of the bore due to the size of camshaft. I then ordered a set a Jessel Linkbar lifters ($1500). After Ken assembled the motor, we encountered the EXACT problem. I have since brought the motor back and BINGO the machinist that Eastside uses magnafluxed the crankshaft revealing that my assumptions of a bad crank were to be true. I know this was over a year ago and Phil already said he would not compensate me. Again thank you Phil for making me spend about $10,000 more then I had to on this motor, just so you could have a few hundred bucks in your pocket. Phil if you would like to contact the machinist feel free to private message me and I will give you his phone number.

When exactly did I sell you the crank? If you don't have the date I can look it up for you. If you had called me when you received the crank and had an issue with it over 2 years ago I would have been more than happy to refund you the money on it. Now you've had the motor up and running for 2 years, motor has been rebuilt at least 2 times since then and you want me to buy it back....Sorry you purchased a used automotive part, if your engine shop neglected to check it, its on you guys. A quality shop will check a used crank the same way they check a new crank.

so your local machine shop chose to NOT CHECK THE INTEGRITY OF THE USED CRANK before assembling the motor??? Had they done this and showed flaws I'm sure Phil would've taken it back before you installed it and ran it in your motor
Fireball at this point I realize I will not be getting a dime from Phil. Yes, they chose not to check the integrity of the crank but, does that make the machine shop responsible? No, it doesn't. The bottom line is your friend Phil(who I expect you to side with on this matter) sold me a crank that was not in working condition. Little did I know this was the case. On top of the $10,000 of extra money I have into this motor, the frustration of it all almost had me sell the car. A reputable shop(Eastside Performance) then built the motor and didn't check the crank, so is it there fault too? For added information eastside once had the LSX nitrous record so I consider them extremely reputable.

When exactly did I sell you the crank? If you don't have the date I can look it up for you. If you had called me when you received the crank and had an issue with it over 2 years ago I would have been more than happy to refund you the money on it. Now you've had the motor up and running for 2 years, motor has been rebuilt at least 2 times since then and you want me to buy it back....Sorry you purchased a used automotive part, if your engine shop neglected to check it, its on you guys. A quality shop will check a used crank the same way they check a new crank.
Honestly Phil, I do not have the exact date written down. At this point it is simply a waste of time to lookup the date since you told me on numerous occasions that you will not issue any sort of refund. Why exactly did you change crankshafts? Was the motor that the crankshaft came out of in working condition? Do you see where i'm getting at? You are correct the motor has been rebuilt 2 times with a TOTAL OF 4 DYNO PULLS. I really thought with someone with the prestiege of yourself would realize what happend and admit any wrongdoing. Correct me if i'm wrong but I asked for a partial refund something like $500 not the full amount paid. I guess thats out of the budget considering you own a 7 second radial car:eyes:

I'm not siding with Phil...Just pointing it out as I see it...

I fail to see why it doesn't make the shop responsible...even new cranks can have issues and should always be measured and verified...they CHOSE to not do this...

its kinda like buying wheels, alot of places will take them back for whatever reason but if you mount tires on em...they are yours...

why should a crank be any different? Since you ran it, there is no way of knowing if the crank was already damaged or due to something that happened in your motor. Why should Phil be responsible for that?



Fireball at this point I realize I will not be getting a dime from Phil. Yes, they chose not to check the integrity of the crank but, does that make the machine shop responsible? No, it doesn't. The bottom line is your friend Phil(who I expect you to side with on this matter) sold me a crank that was not in working condition. Little did I know this was the case. On top of the $10,000 of extra money I have into this motor, the frustration of it all almost had me sell the car. A reputable shop(Eastside Performance) then built the motor and didn't check the crank, so is it there fault too? For added information eastside once had the LSX nitrous record so I consider them extremely reputable.


Honestly Phil, I do not have the exact date written down. At this point it is simply a waste of time to lookup the date since you told me on numerous occasions that you will not issue any sort of refund. Why exactly did you change crankshafts? Was the motor that the crankshaft came out of in working condition? Do you see where i'm getting at? You are correct the motor has been rebuilt 2 times with a TOTAL OF 4 DYNO PULLS. I really thought with someone with the prestiege of yourself would realize what happend and admit any wrongdoing. Correct me if i'm wrong but I asked for a partial refund something like $500 not the full amount paid. I guess thats out of the budget considering you own a 7 second radial car:eyes:

just for what its worth, i would have had the crank checked new or used but i have been talking with SS about all his issues and i will say from what i know my best guess would be the crank was junk before it was installed.

i dont want to get involved in anything here between anyone, but my best guess is that.
i did mention that the crank should be checked before he re did the motor and i would have thought east side would have done so, but im guessing the machine shop they used dropped the ball and didnt check it or lied about checking it.

I'm not siding with Phil...Just pointing it out as I see it...

I fail to see why it doesn't make the shop responsible...even new cranks can have issues and should always be measured and verified...they CHOSE to not do this...

its kinda like buying wheels, alot of places will take them back for whatever reason but if you mount tires on em...they are yours...

why should a crank be any different? Since you ran it, there is no way of knowing if the crank was already damaged or due to something that happened in your motor. Why should Phil be responsible for that?
Fireball your analogy of the tires mounted on wheels isn't comparable to this situation. What was Phil suppose to install my crank:confused: You are right my 5xx hp 440 LSX must have damaged the crank from 4 dyno pulls, it's impossible his 1200+ hp mustang did so:eyes: Again I can have all of my friends post in here taking my side but im not asking them. THE BOTTOM LINE IS HE SOLD ME A CRANK THAT IS CRACKED IN 2 JOURNALS
just for what its worth, i would have had the crank checked new or used but i have been talking with SS about all his issues and i will say from what i know my best guess would be the crank was junk before it was installed.

i dont want to get involved in anything here between anyone, but my best guess is that.
i did mention that the crank should be checked before he re did the motor and i would have thought east side would have done so, but im guessing the machine shop they used dropped the ball and didnt check it or lied about checking it.

Brad, I appreciate your honest point of view. I know it should have been checked and trust no one on the internet no matter who it is.... I guess i'll chalk this up to the cost of racing:disgust:

Honestly Phil, I do not have the exact date written down. At this point it is simply a waste of time to lookup the date since you told me on numerous occasions that you will not issue any sort of refund. Why exactly did you change crankshafts? Was the motor that the crankshaft came out of in working condition? Do you see where i'm getting at? You are correct the motor has been rebuilt 2 times with a TOTAL OF 4 DYNO PULLS. I really thought with someone with the prestiege of yourself would realize what happend and admit any wrongdoing. Correct me if i'm wrong but I asked for a partial refund something like $500 not the full amount paid. I guess thats out of the budget considering you own a 7 second radial car:eyes:

I put myself in your shoes...I buy a crank, I am going to get it checked weather it had no miles or 100k. ANY reputable machine shop will tell you the same thing and check the crank. Now if the crank had been checked and had issues back 2 years ago when you purchased it I would have had no problems giving you a refund and taking it back. The crank was checked here before I sold it and my local machine shop said it was fine. If I purchased a crank and failed to have it inspected in a timely fashion, its my problem. If I remember correctly you only paid 550 + shipping but that was 2 years ago in the middle of 2008 so I could be wrong. After 2 years who really knows whats happened.

The reason we changed it was when I talked to my engine builder and told him my goals had changed from a mid 8 second setup to a bottom 7 second setup he said you need to get a real crank, something with center counterweights and billet. Its no secret the Eagle wont handle 2000hp and thats why we swapped it out.

How does my mustang have anything to do with this situtation? Because I do 100% of the labor and fabrication doesn't mean that I've got normal money tied up into the project.

Ok now you said your peace, time to lock it.

I put myself in your shoes...I buy a crank, I am going to get it checked weather it had no miles or 100k. ANY reputable machine shop will tell you the same thing and check the crank. Now if the crank had been checked and had issues back 2 years ago when you purchased it I would have had no problems giving you a refund and taking it back. The crank was checked here before I sold it and my local machine shop said it was fine. If I purchased a crank and failed to have it inspected in a timely fashion, its my problem. If I remember correctly you only paid 550 + shipping but that was 2 years ago in the middle of 2008 so I could be wrong. After 2 years who really knows whats happened.

The reason we changed it was when I talked to my engine builder and told him my goals had changed from a mid 8 second setup to a bottom 7 second setup he said you need to get a real crank, something with center counterweights and billet. Its no secret the Eagle wont handle 2000hp and thats why we swapped it out.

How does my mustang have anything to do with this situtation? Because I do 100% of the labor and fabrication doesn't mean that I've got normal money tied up into the project.

Ok now you said your peace, time to lock it.
I realize there will be no refund at this point. However, I find it VERY hard to believe that the crank was checked before you sold it. I recall you telling me it was polished, not once did you mention magnafluxed. I now realize I am fighting an uphill battle here. I ask that this thread remain opened for a few days just to see what others think. BTW I've read your "Renegade" thread and I see that you do all of the labor and fabrication. The point I was trying to make is the amount of money I asked for back probably wouldn't even buy a single front shock in your race car, but I don't want to get off topic here. Phil do you really believe I damaged the crank in that short amount of time?

This is a shitty situation. If Phil implied the crank was checked (I can't imagine Charles not asking) then really IMO I think Phil should share some of this responsibility.
On the other hand a machine shop/performance shop should have the crank tested IMO before installing it in a motor.
Like I said, shitty situation. I personally would not check a crank I was selling before selling it unless the buyer insisted on it. I sold a stock crank years back when I built my 383-few weeks later buyer wrote and said the crank was bad-scratched etc.
I sent him the money back-no question. :nod:

I would like to see Phil refund Charles 1/2 the $$ since they both have points on the matter. C'mon guys-this is an easy fix.

Since your asking what people think....

Phil may of said he checked it but whats the worth? Use Phil's up front word as a deciding factor to make up your mind whether you'll purchase the item or not. Aside from that who gives a rats ass about what Phil thinks, even if it came from my best buddy I wouldnt trust them worth a damn, it's my money and my responsibilty to have things checked once the part gets to me/after it leaves Phil's hands........before it is mated with anything else.

If the part came from Phil....you had it checked and it was no good, case closed you got your cash back.

You take two years to check the part after it was in a motor that went south; who knows what happened along the way. You cant honestly answer that yourself because you never had it checked before the item was used.

It's all about liability, you should of had the part checked yourself before it was used. Your pissed because it seems like the item may of been bad before you used it and you may be right but you may be wrong, without proof you dont have a leg to stand on. Once you installed that part without checking it first you voided any kind of chance you had of a return.

Since your asking what people think....

Phil may of said he checked it but whats the worth? Use Phil's up front word as a deciding factor to make up your mind whether you'll purchase the item or not. Aside from that who gives a rats ass about what Phil thinks, even if it came from my best buddy I wouldnt trust them worth a damn, it's my money and my responsibilty to have things checked once the part gets to me/after it leaves Phil's hands........before it is mated with anything else.

If the part came from Phil....you had it checked and it was no good, case closed you got your cash back.

You take two years to check the part after it was in a motor that went south; who knows what happened along the way. You cant honestly answer that yourself because you never had it checked before the item was used.

It's all about liability, you should of had the part checked yourself before it was used. Your pissed because it seems like the item may of been bad before you used it and you may be right but you may be wrong, without proof you dont have a leg to stand on. Once you installed that part without checking it first you voided any kind of chance you had of a return.

just so you know the motor was put together correctly and was only run on the dyno 2 runs and wiped out the bearings right away. that said i figure it to be bad from the start but yes it should have been checked.
it then went back together and wiped out the same bearings. i have been talking with charlie for a while about this. probably before he even had the motor, he had spoken to me on my set up.
like i said before from what i know i think yes the crank was bad right off the bat, but i think it should have been checked off the bat as well.

hell, my motor was running great when i pulled it apart, but i will still check the block and crank before i put it back together. some do it, some dont.

Could the crank have been damaged in shipping? I'm not saying it did happen, but it's a possiblity.

I know where I stand when it comes to QA/QC work as that's what I do for a living. Trust no one, only data.

If I were to buy a used internal engine part, I'd have it checked prior to installing it. I'd have valvesprings pressures checked, any rotating item from clutches to wheels to driveshafts checked for balance and damage. If I bought a cam, I'd have it cam doctored unless you sent a cam card with a serial number that matched the serial number on the cam itself and even then, a cam doctor is helpful to make sure it was actually ground according to specs. Why go to that extreme? Because I trust no-one but my own QA assessment.

So it comes down to economics. The crank was $550 used plus shipping, so we'll say an even $600. Add in the cost of having it checked and verified and then see if you come out ahead of buying new with a warranty.
It sucks, but it's the risk of buying used. If you buy a used car that has no warranty, and it blows up in 2 months, guess what, you're SOL.
That's my take and I don't know any one in this thread at all other than I bought a hood from Fireball.

For an opinion. Sucks that the crank is bad.Sucks even worse that the transaction was years ago and from what I get the crank was never checked when building the motor.

It's a lose lose situation for all involved. Due to so many variables I wouldn't post about it here.

Sorry but after 2 years its a closed case.

This is a shitty situation. If Phil implied the crank was checked (I can't imagine Charles not asking) then really IMO I think Phil should share some of this responsibility.
On the other hand a machine shop/performance shop should have the crank tested IMO before installing it in a motor.
Like I said, shitty situation. I personally would not check a crank I was selling before selling it unless the buyer insisted on it. I sold a stock crank years back when I built my 383-few weeks later buyer wrote and said the crank was bad-scratched etc.
I sent him the money back-no question. :nod:

I would like to see Phil refund Charles 1/2 the $$ since they both have points on the matter. C'mon guys-this is an easy fix.
Mark thanks for your opinion, like I stated i'm only asking for a partial refund.

just so you know the motor was put together correctly and was only run on the dyno 2 runs and wiped out the bearings right away. that said i figure it to be bad from the start but yes it should have been checked.
it then went back together and wiped out the same bearings. i have been talking with charlie for a while about this. probably before he even had the motor, he had spoken to me on my set up.
like i said before from what i know i think yes the crank was bad right off the bat, but i think it should have been checked off the bat as well.

hell, my motor was running great when i pulled it apart, but i will still check the block and crank before i put it back together. some do it, some dont.
Brad this is why I also believe the crank was bad from the start.
Could the crank have been damaged in shipping? I'm not saying it did happen, but it's a possiblity.

I know where I stand when it comes to QA/QC work as that's what I do for a living. Trust no one, only data.

If I were to buy a used internal engine part, I'd have it checked prior to installing it. I'd have valvesprings pressures checked, any rotating item from clutches to wheels to driveshafts checked for balance and damage. If I bought a cam, I'd have it cam doctored unless you sent a cam card with a serial number that matched the serial number on the cam itself and even then, a cam doctor is helpful to make sure it was actually ground according to specs. Why go to that extreme? Because I trust no-one but my own QA assessment.

So it comes down to economics. The crank was $550 used plus shipping, so we'll say an even $600. Add in the cost of having it checked and verified and then see if you come out ahead of buying new with a warranty.
It sucks, but it's the risk of buying used. If you buy a used car that has no warranty, and it blows up in 2 months, guess what, you're SOL.
That's my take and I don't know any one in this thread at all other than I bought a hood from Fireball.
Again I don't think an analogy of buying a used car is comparable here. We're looking at a "balls to the walls" (aluminum rods,titanium valves, etc) race setup in this motor that lasted 2 dyno pulls each time. Not even a trip to the track.

For an opinion. Sucks that the crank is bad.Sucks even worse that the transaction was years ago and from what I get the crank was never checked when building the motor.

It's a lose lose situation for all involved. Due to so many variables I wouldn't post about it here.

It does suck that the crank was bad. Honestly if this were a 402/408 it wouldn't phase me. The fact is that due to Phil selling me a bad crank and me having an extra $10,000 into it does leave a sour taste in my mouth. I agree it is a lose lose situation and this is why I am only asking for a partial refund. I believe it's the right thing to do.

Sorry but after 2 years its a closed case.

C'mon Phil. You can't just wash your hands totally on this, I really don't understand why you would want to anyway. :confused:
You know Phil, you have to understand too that we all follow your builds and look foward to your input on threads etc. you're a popular guy. :nod:
If you say to a buyer, "I had the crank checked" or even hinted that the crank is good, people are gonna believe you. I would beleive you.
You have to take some responsibility here Phil, IMO, you definately do.

If he had the crank checked out and it was bad you would have not been able to sell it for anything. It would be worth zero. Charles is not a liar that's for sure, if he says he verified the crank was bad then that shoul be that. His power level did not cause the damamge on that crank.
If you meet 1/2 way you still made $$$ on a bad crank. Charles did you a favor so to speak by not checking it out. Bottom line-you're still making money on a bad part.
Meet him 1/2 way. :)

There's no statute of limitations on bad cranks!! :judge:

Noyzee - I know what your saying, what I'm getting at is the fact that it wasnt spec'd out before it was used is really really really shooting yourself in the foot. Even if the crank was bad from Phil (maybe it was) you've got to cover your ass and do something like have it spec'd to prove that your starting with a good crank or not even bother with it and get a refund.

The fact that Phil said it was checked kind of covers his ass even if all logic proves otherwise. If Phil had it checked and he can get the spec sheet from the shop that did it maybe that will clear some of this up. Do they print something out with the spec's when you have a crank spec'd?

How well can a motor be put together by a shop that doesn't check a used crank? You guys can guess and think and "know" that a crank was bad before install but if it wasn't checked and verified as bad than you are SOL. Sorry about the situation. If nothing else this will serve as a reminder to others to always check out parts before use in a timely fashion.

Larry

So the used car isn't a good analogy, but what about set of rims. If I bought a set of rims used, the first thing I'd do before mounting tires on them would be to have them checked for balance and being out of round or bent. I wouldn't wait till I drove on them and wiped out the bearings in my differential before I had them checked for proper specs.
It's due diligence really. You have to cover your butt if you expect others to refund you for a bad part.

It sucks, really it does. I'm not really familiar with what exactly was wrong with the crank, but could it have happened in transit???? Could the box have been dropped and cause damage???

C'mon Phil. You can't just wash your hands totally on this, I really don't understand why you would want to anyway. :confused:
You know Phil, you have to understand too that we all follow your builds and look foward to your input on threads etc. you're a popular guy. :nod:
If you say to a buyer, "I had the crank checked" or even hinted that the crank is good, people are gonna believe you. I would beleive you.
You have to take some responsibility here Phil, IMO, you definately do.

If he had the crank checked out and it was bad you would have not been able to sell it for anything. It would be worth zero. Charles is not a liar that's for sure, if he says he verified the crank was bad then that shoul be that. His power level did not cause the damamge on that crank.
If you meet 1/2 way you still made $$$ on a bad crank. Charles did you a favor so to speak by not checking it out. Bottom line-you're still making money on a bad part.
Meet him 1/2 way. :)
Very well said Mark.

How well can a motor be put together by a shop that doesn't check a used crank? You guys can guess and think and "know" that a crank was bad before install but if it wasn't checked and verified as bad than you are SOL. Sorry about the situation. If nothing else this will serve as a reminder to others to always check out parts before use in a timely fashion.

Larry
The second time the motor was built by Eastside Performance. If you aren't aware they held the LSX nitrous record for sometime. So I think they put the motor together "well enough":eyes:
So the used car isn't a good analogy, but what about set of rims. If I bought a set of rims used, the first thing I'd do before mounting tires on them would be to have them checked for balance and being out of round or bent. I wouldn't wait till I drove on them and wiped out the bearings in my differential before I had them checked for proper specs.
It's due diligence really. You have to cover your butt if you expect others to refund you for a bad part.

It sucks, really it does. I'm not really familiar with what exactly was wrong with the crank, but could it have happened in transit???? Could the box have been dropped and cause damage???
You are right it does suck. I guess the wheel analogy works but on a MUCH smaller scale of value. I didn't buy everything at once. I saw a deal on the crank purchased that, then purchase new aluminum rods,LSX block, and custom pistons. I just didn't go out one day and spend $10,000 on parts.

If the shop that assembled it was so good then why after it wiped the bearings out in 2 dyno pulls wasnt something questioned and EVERYTHING in the motor checked? I know if i built a motor and it blew up in 2 dyno pulls i would be like WTF.... something has to be wrong. I know i wouldnt just put new bearings in it and figure "hey lets try again, Maybe it will work this time"

Also honestly after 2 years i wouldnt refund anyone either. Look at it from phils stand point. Who KNOWS what could happen to a crank in 2 years.

If the shop that assembled it was so good then why after it wiped the bearings out in 2 dyno pulls wasnt something questioned and EVERYTHING in the motor checked? I know if i built a motor and it blew up in 2 dyno pulls i would be like WTF.... something has to be wrong. I know i wouldnt just put new bearings in it and figure "hey lets try again, Maybe it will work this time"

Also honestly after 2 years i wouldnt refund anyone either. Look at it from phils stand point. Who KNOWS what could happen to a crank in 2 years.

maybee you should read the first post again

No way possible this is the seller's responsibility. I don't understand how you are going to build a motor of this caliber and skimp on the freaking heart of the build. Used+checking the specs/tolerances and you probably would have been at the new price. I can see why you didn't have it checked out. This is a shitty situation but you should have had it checked before it was completely assembled. I am in no way a engine expert, but this is the same as any other used part, in which the analogy fireball used is appropriate. You know what they say once the part has been installed...Your asking for opinions so this is mine.

Again this is like the most critical part to a build and you skimped out on. If you would have it checked and there was a problem then i would say a refund would be in order or at the least a partial refund as a good business practice. But this is 2 years after the fact through the work of a shop who really i can't understand why they wouldn't insist with you on checking the used crank before assembly...or going with a new crank instead.

2 years man, that is a long time to try and come after a seller.

I cannot believe i am actually reading this.

At what point does an adult take responsibility for their own project and not blame someone else?

You're buying a piece of metal, that is subject to thousands of RPM with hot things attached to it that pull and push it in all directions, and you can't take the time to have it checked by your machine shop?

Quit whining. No one stuffed a gun in your mouth and made you purchase the USED crank.

Very unfortunate build...

1) Machine shops get paid.
2) Engine builders get paid.
3) People selling parts get paid.
4) Person paying the bills gets screwed.

Very unfortunate build...

1) Machine shops get paid.
2) Engine builders get paid.
3) People selling parts get paid.
4) Person paying the bills gets screwed.

And it is the person paying the bills that has to step up and perform due diligence and make sure everything is 100% prior to writing the checks.

I saw a sign in a performance shop once that said labor was $85 hour but $150/hour if you supplied the parts. Point being was that they didn't know what condition those customer supplied parts were in and could slow up the process and cause more problems in the end.

I'm sure Phil sold it as is/no warranty. I'm sure if it was found prior to installing it that it was bad he would have refunded the money, but once you install it, it's yours. I just don't get how after two years they can pinpoint that the problem was there originally prior to installing the crank if they didn't check it before hand.

For what it's worth, if I had given someone my word a part was good and it wasn't I would want to stand behind it. From the OP's account it does sound like it was defective from the start. Not to say Phil is 100% at fault by any means, but he did represent the part as being in good working condition. Considering that the part was not checked before installation and considering the amount of time that has past, I would offer the buyer a partial refund if it was me that sold the part.

For what it's worth, if I had given someone my word a part was good and it wasn't I would want to stand behind it. From the OP's account it does sound like it was defective from the start. Not to say Phil is 100% at fault by any means, but he did represent the part as being in good working condition. Considering that the part was not checked before installation and considering the amount of time that has past, I would offer the buyer a partial refund if it was me that sold the part.

I totally agree and to be quite honest, it seems to me that Phil is being less than sympathetic to Charles' misfortune here considering it all stemmed from the crank that he sold him.
I don't for one minte think Phil knew the crank was bad but now that he knows, he should step up.
Would anyone buy anything from Phil after this? I wouldn't knowing that phil isn't gonna do the right thing after the sale. JMHO
I also think this "2 years" thing is a non issue. You buy parts for a motor, takes time to gather parts, especially when you are shopping around for used parts. Then you have build time, machine time, get the car together-get a dyno appt etc. Just the parts shopping could take a year or more depending on what you're doing at the time, other things going on etc.
The 2 years thing means nothing IMO, absolutely nothing.
I just don't get how a fellow member, racer, builder can be so unsympathetic to the misfortune of Charles here-I just don't get it, like he had nothing to do with it. :confused:
The part came from him-came from you Phil-C'mon bro'.

just send him a quick and easy $250 on paypal and call it a day.

The 2 year issue wouldn't be an issue if he still hadn't installed it and found it now to be defective prior to installing it.

But how is Phil to be held responsible after it's in an engine when he didn't personally install it? It's not like Phil did the install and is now giving him a hard time. Of course everyone is going to point the finer elsewhere because no-one wants to be held accountable. It's much easier to point the finger elsewhere.

It's like buying a house. Would you trust the seller if they said their house was inspected and everything was ok, and they were to throw in a 1 year home warranty. Then 2 years later you find termite damage and they say it's been here for 4 years. Who's fault is it now? Do you think you would have a leg to stand on going back at the previous owner because the termites were determined to be there prior to you buying it?

Fact, Phil said the crank was checked before he sold it and was fine.
Fact, you had a shop determine that your busted motor was a result of a problem with the crank. The problem is, you never validated the condition of the crank prior to using it, so there is a time gap in use of the crank without confirming the conidtion of it. So the burden of proof at this point is with proving that the damage to the crank could not have occured while in your possesion, which is going to be tough without getting metalurgists involved, and now an hour of their time is going to be higher than the price of the crank.

I think people are looking at this on an emotional standpoint more than a liability standpoint.

I think people are looking at this on an emotional standpoint more than a liability standpoint.

The question isn't really whether Phil has to do anything, the question is, should he? Sure if this went to small claims court the buyer probably wouldn't have a case, but is that how things should work here? We're a community of enthusiasts, I thought the idea was that we all try to help each other out and hook each other up when we can. If I buy parts from someone on this forum I really don't want to have to be thinking about what I need to do to cover my ass, and if I sell parts to someone my first thought wouldn't be what is the least I am obligated to do for them. That's how I see it.

I totally agree and to be quite honest, it seems to me that Phil is being less than sympathetic to Charles' misfortune here considering it all stemmed from the crank that he sold him.
I don't for one minte think Phil knew the crank was bad but now that he knows, he should step up.
.

I think he has handled this very well. If I was in his shoe's and saw this post my answers would not be as nice.

I mean come on,the part was sold over a year ago. Yes,it sucks for everyone involved. Definitely not the best post to get any kind of refund.

so you're saying the crank journal tolerances were not even checked.. because I almost find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be way tight or loose on that journal if this was the case.. not to mention after wiping out one set of bearings I would be all over looking at that spot with a microscope.. lol..

If I built engines for a living, "I" (builder) would feel responsible..

secondly that's why I NEVER buy used parts that can ever wear.. NEVER !!

hope you guys can reasonably figure something out somehow...

buy a new crank, put it in as is and if it spins a bearing see if the manufactor wants to know your name.

you learned a very painful and expensive lesson, learn from it. CHECK EVERYTHING

I think he has handled this very well. If I was in his shoe's and saw this post my answers would not be as nice.

I mean come on,the part was sold over a year ago. Yes,it sucks for everyone involved. Definitely not the best post to get any kind of refund.

i agree with this.

but if i had the money i would just throw $250 at him and forget it.

I think he has handled this very well. If I was in his shoe's and saw this post my answers would not be as nice.

I disagree.

Regardless of who is responsible, Ignoring Charlies PM's is a poor way to handle this...

I disagree.

Regardless of who is responsible, Ignoring Charlies PM's is a poor way to handle this...

I hope your not trying to say I've avoided PMs because I have replied to everyone that was sent, I'm not avoiding anyone.

Here is the bottom line, I sold a crank that was checked by a machine shop and was in good condition OVER 2 years ago. It is the engine builders responsibility to check EACH and EVERY part and ensure that it meets their expectations because at the end of the day THEIR name is on it.

When we got our new crank from Bryant, we spent over $3,000 on the crankshaft alone, BEFORE it went into the motor, it was magnafluxed, checked for runout, journals were checked for size and roundness, and the balance was checked. This is a standard process for any quality engine builder.

If the Machine shop neglected to check the crank, did they check the balance? Did they check the piston to bore clearance, did they check the bearing clearance? Did they check the rods for roundness? Or did they just slap the phucker together? Which brings up my 2nd question...

If the crank was BENT it would have shown when they balanced it because bent cranks balance funny or when it was installed in the block. If the crank was BENT it would not have balanced correctly and would have been tough to rotate once the main caps were installed? You just dont miss a bent crank.

If the question had been raised back in 2008 when he got the crank before it was installed when the engine buider was doing the preliminary setup, I would have had zero issue working with him. 2 years later with plenty of question of the engine builders competence, my hands are washed of this situtation.

There is no reason to debate this situtation any more, there is absolutely zero chance I am doing any type of a refund.

Moderators, can you please move this to the appropriate section, Buyer and Seller feedback.

I hope your not trying to say I've avoided PMs because I have replied to everyone that was sent, I'm not avoiding anyone.

If I was informed incorrectly then please accept my appology.

Phil has some great points in that last post. 2 years is a long a$$ time

I hope your not trying to say I've avoided PMs because I have replied to everyone that was sent, I'm not avoiding anyone.

Here is the bottom line, I sold a crank that was checked by a machine shop and was in good condition OVER 2 years ago. It is the engine builders responsibility to check EACH and EVERY part and ensure that it meets their expectations because at the end of the day THEIR name is on it.

When we got our new crank from Bryant, we spent over $3,000 on the crankshaft alone, BEFORE it went into the motor, it was magnafluxed, checked for runout, journals were checked for size and roundness, and the balance was checked. This is a standard process for any quality engine builder.

If the Machine shop neglected to check the crank, did they check the balance? Did they check the piston to bore clearance, did they check the bearing clearance? Did they check the rods for roundness? Or did they just slap the phucker together? Which brings up my 2nd question...

If the crank was BENT it would have shown when they balanced it because bent cranks balance funny or when it was installed in the block. If the crank was BENT it would not have balanced correctly and would have been tough to rotate once the main caps were installed? You just dont miss a bent crank.

If the question had been raised back in 2008 when he got the crank before it was installed when the engine buider was doing the preliminary setup, I would have had zero issue working with him. 2 years later with plenty of question of the engine builders competence, my hands are washed of this situtation.

There is no reason to debate this situtation any more, there is absolutely zero chance I am doing any type of a refund.

So what you're saying is Eastside Performance is not competent of building a motor? I'm sure all of the above were checked. Phil, I had to send you multiple private messages and the first one you responded to I had to add delivery confirmation to even get a response. So you did ignore atleast two of my messages. As I thought this is going no where. Mods can lock the thread. Also, I would again like to thank you Phil for making me spend a shitload of money to fix something that stemmed from a malfunctioning part in which you sold me. I find it a little ironic that when I private messaged Virgina Speed about the Eagle cranks they new all about them "flexing and cracking in high horsepower applications"(Shawn@VA Speed). Correct me if i'm wrong but they do all of your engine building? Do you see where i'm getting at? As I ask the mods to lock this thread I ask one more question to you Phil and the pro-Phil crowd: if the tables were turned and I sold you to a malfunctioning part that in return cost you THOUSANDS of dollars you would not ask me for a refund?

If Eastside is such a competent engine builder how did they miss a bad crank? A bad crank would have showed up on...
First motor build
1) Inital check
2) Inital balance
3) magnaflux test
4) When the crank was installed and main caps were torqued

When the motor was torn down the 1st time, everything should have been phucking checked again with a microscope. There are more than a handful of checks that should and were probably done to see if it was a bad crank.

Any engine builder that looks at the eagle crank will tell you they are not designed for high horsepower applications, the design of the crank and counterweights make them prone to flex. Simple study of the design of the crank would note that they are prone to crank flex in high hp setups. Have you ever thought that MAYBE your making more power than the crank can handle reliabily??

I started using virginia speed at the very end of 2008 to the beginning of 2009. The motor builder that I used locally just didnt have the experience with the turbo setups.

And I certainly hope you dont think this crank is going to last in that 440" motor your building. You have a $16,000 engine with a $500 crank. Whats wrong with this picture.

And no I would not ask for a refund.

And I certainly hope you dont think this crank is going to last in that 440" motor your building. You have a $16,000 engine with a $500 crank. Whats wrong with this picture.

So there was something wrong with the crank because you sold it for $500 :confused: FWIW, I know of a few 440 LSX's that are in the 8's (300 shot and more) with eagle cranks.

So there was something wrong with the crank because you sold it for $500 :confused: FWIW, I know of a few 440 LSX's that are in the 8's (300 shot and more) with eagle cranks.


This is my last post in this thread....

If I were going to build a 440" LSx, 14.5:1 TEA 6 bolt headed 2 kit nitrous motor, it wouldn't be with a phucking eagle crank. I'd use a Callies Magnum at a bare minumum. Eagle cranks NEW are cheap for a reason. :gtfo: :lock:

so why did u run it in your car

Since my name was brought up-i guess i'm going to have to respond

please inform me were i said that eagle cranks have a problem of cracking.I did say they will flex in high hp applications.



I will add this as well-a competent engine builder will check a used crank thoroughly-

we check every used crank before we use it

magnaflux
check for straightness
roundness of the journals
journal taper

if this was done before engine assembly-then it happened after the crank was installed in the engine-

if it was not checked-change engine builders

So what you're saying is Eastside Performance is not competent of building a motor?I'm sure all of the above were checked. Phil, I had to send you multiple private messages and the first one you responded to I had to add delivery confirmation to even get a response. So you did ignore atleast two of my messages. As I thought this is going no where. Mods can lock the thread. Also, I would again like to thank you Phil for making me spend a shitload of money to fix something that stemmed from a malfunctioning part in which you sold me. I find it a little ironic that when I private messaged Virgina Speed about the Eagle cranks they new all about them "flexing and cracking in high horsepower applications"(Shawn@VA Speed). Correct me if i'm wrong but they do all of your engine building? Do you see where i'm getting at? As I ask the mods to lock this thread I ask one more question to you Phil and the pro-Phil crowd: if the tables were turned and I sold you to a malfunctioning part that in return cost you THOUSANDS of dollars you would not ask me for a refund?


if all of that was checked before the crank installed-that would mean the crank was straight and free of cracks before installation-that could only mean the damage was done after installation.

if all of that was checked before the crank installed-that would mean the crank was straight and free of cracks before installation-that could only mean the damage was done after installation.

I'm glad someone noticed that.

we check every used crank before we use it

magnaflux
check for straightness
roundness of the journals
journal taper


if it was not checked-change engine builders

Is it reasonable that Charles told Eastside that the crank was checked and since Phil would seem to be a reputable stand up guy to this point that they would skip that crank check?
I'm not saying that it's right or anything but I would think that scenario could play out-not like he bought a crank from some stranger, if Phil and I'm talking Phil here-told Charles or even implied that the crank was good to go-and if Phil is selling it that's EXACTLY what I would think-that's it's good to go-I could see this happening. I really could.
Just a sequence of unfortunate events happened here and Charles got the short end here.

If you're a long time member here, well known builder/racer etc. I think you have to be RESPONSIBLE to a certain extent when giving advice and ESPECIALLY when selling parts.
People identify YOU with the PART and there's a comfort level that comes from buying from someone well known on this forum or anywhere else whre you kinda "know" somebody.

"hey where'd you get this crank?"
"I bought from Phil in Tech-it's good to go-no worries, got a great deal!"
Just like that-$10k later......................

just so we are clear what was said in my pm

I do not appreciate being misquoted!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SSPerformance
Have you ever seen any problems with an eagle crank shaft that resulted in eating up bearings. also what is the rpm limit on a stock style ls1 oil system

Shawn @ VA Speed
higher hp,higher rpm engines will flex the eagle cranks tearing up the main bearings.We have used melling hv oil pumps with moroso pans up to 8400rpm

Is it reasonable that Charles told Eastside that the crank was checked and since Phil would seem to be a reputable stand up guy to this point that they would skip that crank check?
I'm not saying that it's right or anything but I would think that scenario could play out-not like he bought a crank from some stranger, if Phil and I'm talking Phil here-told Charles or even implied that the crank was good to go-and if Phil is selling it that's EXACTLY what I would think-that's it's good to go-I could see this happening. I really could.
Just a sequence of unfortunate events happened here and Charles got the short end here.

If you're a long time member here, well known builder/racer etc. I think you have to be RESPONSIBLE to a certain extent when giving advice and ESPECIALLY when selling parts.
People identify YOU with the PART and there's a comfort level that comes from buying from someone well known on this forum or anywhere else whre you kinda "know" somebody.

"hey where'd you get this crank?"
"I bought from Phil in Tech-it's good to go-no worries, got a great deal!"
Just like that-$10k later......................

no it is not reasonable to ever skip checking a used part because so and so said it was good.

I don't care if Warren Johnson said it was good and the Pope swore to it,i would still check it.Until i see it for myself it's not a fact.

I don't now how other places do it but i don't assume much-

I check every new crank for journal roundness and taper-also check them for straightness.
I check every new connecting rods for both ends being rounds and to proper side
I check every piston for the correct diameter and the pin bores are round and correct diameter

to do ANYTHING less is just foolish.

The crank was bad from day 1. It took me a year of collecting parts for this build. my pockets are not as deep as phill or virgina speed. i guess it is what it is .... very hard lesson to learn phill can keep his money....You showed your true colors....

no it is not reasonable to ever skip checking a used part because so and so said it was good.

I don't care if Warren Johnson said it was good and the Pope swore to it,i would still check it.Until i see it for myself it's not a fact.

I don't now how other places do it but i don't assume much-

I check every new crank for journal roundness and taper-also check them for straightness.
I check every new connecting rods for both ends being rounds and to proper side
I check every piston for the correct diameter and the pin bores are round and correct diameter

to do ANYTHING less is just foolish.

I never said it wasn't foolish, I was just asking if that could have been a reasonable scenario that could have taken place. Not wise but reasonable.
After reading this thread I defiantely agree that it is foolish to skip any check that needs to be done in a motor build. :nod:
I don't think that anyone here disagrees that the crank SHOULD have been checked by the builder but I think most of will agree that the crank caused all the issues here.

[QUOTE=Shawn @ VA Speed;13339142
Shawn @ VA Speed
higher hp,higher rpm engines will flex the eagle cranks tearing up the main bearings.We have used melling hv oil pumps with moroso pans up to 8400rpm[/QUOTE]

What rpm was Phil spinning that Eagle crank up to?
That's what I'd really like to know here.

Everyone may agree that the crank is at fault, but the issue is when did the damage to the crank occur. If it wasn't checked prior to being re-installed, then you can't point fingers at anyone.

it was bad from day 1 .... Phill did not no it was bad nor sell it knowing it was bad... now your just beating a dead horse

it was bad from day 1 .... Phill did not no it was bad nor sell it knowing it was bad... now your just beating a dead horse

really?so you had it checked before you put it in and it was bad and you still put it in?
that's the ONLY way you can say for a fact it was bad from day one.

normally i would let this lie-but you lied about what i said during our PM's and that just pisses me off.

just so we are clear what was said in my pm

I do not appreciate being misquoted!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SSPerformance
Have you ever seen any problems with an eagle crank shaft that resulted in eating up bearings. also what is the rpm limit on a stock style ls1 oil system

Shawn @ VA Speed
higher hp,higher rpm engines will flex the eagle cranks tearing up the main bearings.We have used melling hv oil pumps with moroso pans up to 8400rpm

I private messaged Virgina Speed about the Eagle cranks they new all about them "flexing and cracking in high horsepower applications"(Shawn@VA Speed).

same shit you said they flex. flexing is bending and with the stress they will crack... I'm not going to sit here and go back and fourth with you

same shit you said they flex. flexing is bending and with the stress they will crack... I'm not going to sit here and go back and fourth with you

you clearly know nothing about metallurgy...

my high-dollar magnum XL crank flexed, but it doesn't mean its cracked...

I don't think this thread concerns you anymore !!!

I don't think this thread concerns you anymore !!!

I'll post when I want and where I want...I don't need your permission :gtfo:

when you make statements that make no technical sense I will respond...

Hmm... Here's a case where you were on the flip side of the dispute. You were positive the part was as described and the buyer wanted a refund after only 5 months.

I guess I'm a liar and thief according to Omega. I sold him a 99 Harness in august. I'm 1000% sure because it came out of a 99 parts car i bought off of here. He wait for 5 months and now is trying to hustle me out of my money and give me a diff harness in return. I tried to make thing right with him I got a attitude from the start.

Here's the link for others that want to check the rest of the thread. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/negative-trader-feedback/1050299-ssperformance-liar-theif.html

I won't add my commentary as to be unbiased here.

I'm done going back and fourth have a nbice day

for what its worth my "cheap" eagle crank has well over 250 passes in it from my 402 and my lsx 427 every pass was in the 8 and 9 second range and she is still in one piece.
i was spinning to 8300 to 8500 in the lsx pass after pass and im ball parking close to 1,000 hp.
just to put that in the mix, they cant be all that bad.

Damn Fireball, you defend VA Speed and Phil like it's your job. Is there something you guys aren't telling us :supergay: ? So when a crank flexs it doesn't remotely put any more stress on the journals? Since you're a mechanical engineer I would be interested in your explaination.

for what its worth my "cheap" eagle crank has well over 250 passes in it from my 402 and my lsx 427 every pass was in the 8 and 9 second range and she is still in one piece.
i was spinning to 8300 to 8500 in the lsx pass after pass and im ball parking close to 1,000 hp.
just to put that in the mix, they cant be all that bad.


We both know of a "cheap" Eagle crank that went 8.2's and survived when that block eventually split in half. Then continued on in another block running mid 8's...
They can handle 1200 hp fairly comfortable. I've seen it many times over...

We both know of a "cheap" Eagle crank that went 8.2's and survived when that block eventually split in half. Then continued on in another block running mid 8's...
They can handle 1200 hp fairly comfortable. I've seen it many times over...

yea, forgot about that one. they bought that after the good luck i had with mine. lol

fireball, your a pink guy with a flag? thats kind of gay. lol


turbo guys they stick together. screw them and there 3000 hp cars. lol

Damn Fireball, you defend VA Speed and Phil like it's your job. Is there something you guys aren't telling us :supergay: ? So when a crank flexs it doesn't remotely put any more stress on the journals? Since you're a mechanical engineer I would be interested in your explaination.

Once again...not defending anyone...just stating how I see it.

every crank flexes...even if its in the range of millionths of an inch. most they can go is the main bearing clearance (thousandths of an inch)...even then its well within elastic limit. cracks are usually from thermal insult...i.e. wiped/spun bearings. didn't he wipe out some bearings...you know that causes alot of heat on the journals ;)

heres my worthless 2 cents on this

if the crank was tested like it should have been it would of been cought in pre assembley and or assembley..once it was in the motor and it was ran under load and rpm's any part to give out now is on you and your engine builder..

anyone will tell you engine dynoing and burn outs are hell on motors..

what i dont get is the engine lasted 2 dyno pulls which on the very first pull there would of been big trouble signs..but they went 2..then tore the motor apart,didnt check the crank and made 2 more pulls resulting in more problems or same problems..

as for the shop you used holding records..thats nice but i know people who where record holders for shit to and seen there motors last only 1 or 2 runs before also..

Im lost here.... Unless you bought the entire rotating assembly from Phil, the crank would have needed to be spin balanced - and that would have found any bend in the crank. Different rods, Pistons, wrist pins, rings etc etc all have different weights. An out of balance crank will eat bearings, it will flex and bend at high enough RPM's

Who assembled the engine the FIRST TIME?

I read Eastside did the second time... To me it seems they assumed it was an oiling issue with the lifters blocking flow. If it ate bearings after the first build, was the crank turned?

I just dont understand how it wasnt caught... Twice..... If it was bent from day 1

Good point, was the original rotating assembly balanced prior to installation? Shouldn't that have caught any huge problems with it being bad?

Im lost here.... Unless you bought the entire rotating assembly from Phil, the crank would have needed to be spin balanced - and that would have found any bend in the crank. Different rods, Pistons, wrist pins, rings etc etc all have different weights. An out of balance crank will eat bearings, it will flex and bend at high enough RPM's

Who assembled the engine the FIRST TIME?

I read Eastside did the second time... To me it seems they assumed it was an oiling issue with the lifters blocking flow. If it ate bearings after the first build, was the crank turned?

I just dont understand how it wasnt caught... Twice..... If it was bent from day 1

Good points. Did Eastside assume the rotating assembly was balanced already?

Good points. Did Eastside assume the rotating assembly was balanced already?

Honeslty Mark i'm not sure. I was so disguted I just brought them the complete longblock and told them do whatever they need to do.

Honeslty Mark i'm not sure. I was so disguted I just brought them the complete longblock and told them do whatever they need to do.


You didnt answer the obivious question...

Who built the engine the first time?


Again - I dont get it. If the crank was in unusable condition when you received it, it would have been noticed during the required balancing.

Did you buy parts, and slap them in the block yourself without balancing the crank?

Honeslty Mark i'm not sure. I was so disguted I just brought them the complete longblock and told them do whatever they need to do.

If you bought them the complete longblock that would certainly explain why Eastside would assume the rotating assembly was balanced. Not saying it's right to assume that, you did bring them a motor with issues, everything should have been checked thouroughly.
Very unfortunate.

Who assembled the engine the FIRST TIME?


According to post #1...

After using my local machine shop to assemble the shortblock, the motor lasted 2 dyno pulls due to a loss of oil pressure. I then was in contact with Ken from Eastside Performance who thought the lifters were being pushed too far out of the bore due to the size of camshaft. I then ordered a set a Jessel Linkbar lifters ($1500). After Ken assembled the motor, we encountered the EXACT problem. I have since brought the motor back and BINGO the machinist that Eastside uses magnafluxed the crankshaft revealing that my assumptions of a bad crank were to be true.

2 Builders, 1 motor. We only know of Eastside so the obvious question is....

...who is your local machine shop?

If they didnt check the integrity of a part then you should be speaking to them, not Phil.

According to post #1...



2 Builders, 1 motor. We only know of Eastside so the obvious question is....

...who is your local machine shop?

If they didnt check the integrity of a part then you should be speaking to them, not Phil.

BINGO, case closed, sorry buddy...ITs your machinist fault not Phils... I would have compensated you back on your cash if it was checked before the install and it was fucked, just like PHIL. But after the install and then you say its jacked. Sorry buddy and I know where your coming from but it aint gonna happen