Trans is out. Lateral play on input. Busted slave. Need some advice!!
07-12-2010, 06:42 AM
#1
Trans is out. Lateral play on input. Busted slave. Need some advice!! Whats up everyone. For a while, out of the blue, Ive been hearing a crazy sound from my trans/clutch area. It only happened when the clutch was pushed in, and it would happen in between gears. It only happened around 2000 rpm. But it was NASTY sounding. Sounded like something was broken, or vibing or something. Just not good. You could feel it in the whole car.
So...here's what Im running. Autozone slave, bronze pilot bushing, LS7 clutch, TICK master cylinder.
Here's where I might have screwed up. When I removed the trans from the bell housing a while back, one of the dowels stayed in the bell housing. I didnt think of it until it was back in the car. Figured it was ok. Well...I dont think the input shaft was lined up properly...or it fell out of alignment shortly after install. Then...most recently, I bled the crap out of the clutch. I think I might have the TICK adjusted too far out, and I think it started to take its toll on the slave clyinder. So here's some pictures...then some explaination of what I found. I also need some help from the trans gurus...
Can already see problems...
Clutch looks ok, but I didnt get the bellhousing or clutch out. I think the pilot bushing might be toast. BUT, I think Im glad I used a bushing instead of the bearing. Because if the input shaft was moving around, the bushing probably saved it. Does anyone think the bushing could have caused me issue? Or do you agree that I was ok and it probably saved the input shaft snout?
Notice a few things. Ugly looking throwout bearing. Grease/fluid all around it. A ring or piece of the slave just floating on the input shaft. Moisture around the casing towards the bottom.
Next to the new GM unit that Ive had for a while.
Now, something I noticed. I feel like the input shaft has a LOT of lateral play. It doesnt seem to have any endplay, but I can wobble the thing around pretty good. Here is a video that should illustrate my point. I did a quick and dirty set up with my dial caliper, and I think I got somewhere near 0.050" at the very tip of the input shaft. But I didnt have a good way to attach the caliper at the time...figured the vid was good enough to get some opinions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Rk43g8TO0
My question to the trans guru's... Some say that lateral movement is ok, as long as there isnt much endplay. Some say that what I have is normal for a used trans...but excessive if it were a fresh trans obviously. So what say you? Im thinking if I get the dowels engaged properly, and a new pilot bushing, that might be runnable. Which would make me VERY happy, because its no money out of my pocket really. I already have the slave cylinder. Im wondering if the piece fallling off the slave is what happens when you overextend the slave? No one can seem to say how you can tell if you are over extending the slave...they talk about it, but cant describe how to know. I think the moisture on the casing, and around the slave is clutch fluid, I dont think anythings leaking from the motor. I cant tell where its comin from, so I can only imagine its leaking from the slave.
Any input fellas? (no pun intended).
I want to rebuild the trans eventually, but now isnt the time. I need to get it back together asap, and as cheaply as possible. I already have the new slave, so all Ide need is a new pilot bushing.
J.
So...here's what Im running. Autozone slave, bronze pilot bushing, LS7 clutch, TICK master cylinder.
Here's where I might have screwed up. When I removed the trans from the bell housing a while back, one of the dowels stayed in the bell housing. I didnt think of it until it was back in the car. Figured it was ok. Well...I dont think the input shaft was lined up properly...or it fell out of alignment shortly after install. Then...most recently, I bled the crap out of the clutch. I think I might have the TICK adjusted too far out, and I think it started to take its toll on the slave clyinder. So here's some pictures...then some explaination of what I found. I also need some help from the trans gurus...
Can already see problems...
Clutch looks ok, but I didnt get the bellhousing or clutch out. I think the pilot bushing might be toast. BUT, I think Im glad I used a bushing instead of the bearing. Because if the input shaft was moving around, the bushing probably saved it. Does anyone think the bushing could have caused me issue? Or do you agree that I was ok and it probably saved the input shaft snout?
Notice a few things. Ugly looking throwout bearing. Grease/fluid all around it. A ring or piece of the slave just floating on the input shaft. Moisture around the casing towards the bottom.
Next to the new GM unit that Ive had for a while.
Now, something I noticed. I feel like the input shaft has a LOT of lateral play. It doesnt seem to have any endplay, but I can wobble the thing around pretty good. Here is a video that should illustrate my point. I did a quick and dirty set up with my dial caliper, and I think I got somewhere near 0.050" at the very tip of the input shaft. But I didnt have a good way to attach the caliper at the time...figured the vid was good enough to get some opinions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Rk43g8TO0
My question to the trans guru's... Some say that lateral movement is ok, as long as there isnt much endplay. Some say that what I have is normal for a used trans...but excessive if it were a fresh trans obviously. So what say you? Im thinking if I get the dowels engaged properly, and a new pilot bushing, that might be runnable. Which would make me VERY happy, because its no money out of my pocket really. I already have the slave cylinder. Im wondering if the piece fallling off the slave is what happens when you overextend the slave? No one can seem to say how you can tell if you are over extending the slave...they talk about it, but cant describe how to know. I think the moisture on the casing, and around the slave is clutch fluid, I dont think anythings leaking from the motor. I cant tell where its comin from, so I can only imagine its leaking from the slave.
Any input fellas? (no pun intended).
I want to rebuild the trans eventually, but now isnt the time. I need to get it back together asap, and as cheaply as possible. I already have the new slave, so all Ide need is a new pilot bushing.
J.
07-12-2010, 08:52 AM
#2
Part of the thing I love most about these forums, is that after I type out a question or a problem, I feel liek its an extra level of "thought process".
The more I think about it, Im starting to believe my alignment issue was causing me problems from day one. When I first bought the donor and did the swap, I didnt know much on the history of the trans.
I always had weird inconsistent shifting, and pedal inconsistency. The first time I separated the trans from the bell, the alignment dowel was not in the trans.
The alignment dowels are pretty important, as Im learning. The bolt holes are sloppy, and cant be relied on to center things. So...poor alignment could lead to pre-mature bearing/bushing failure, slave cylinder issues, vibes, nasty sounds, and poor shifting. All of which Ive experienced.
Im really glad I had a bushing in there if it is in fact all due to the dowel being out. Otherwise I might have some real input shaft damage.
Still looking for feedback...just posting my thoughts from sitting here mulling it over for an hour.
J.
The more I think about it, Im starting to believe my alignment issue was causing me problems from day one. When I first bought the donor and did the swap, I didnt know much on the history of the trans.
I always had weird inconsistent shifting, and pedal inconsistency. The first time I separated the trans from the bell, the alignment dowel was not in the trans.
The alignment dowels are pretty important, as Im learning. The bolt holes are sloppy, and cant be relied on to center things. So...poor alignment could lead to pre-mature bearing/bushing failure, slave cylinder issues, vibes, nasty sounds, and poor shifting. All of which Ive experienced.
Im really glad I had a bushing in there if it is in fact all due to the dowel being out. Otherwise I might have some real input shaft damage.
Still looking for feedback...just posting my thoughts from sitting here mulling it over for an hour.
J.
07-12-2010, 12:51 PM
#3
You can get the trans in there WAY out of whack without the alignment dowels, and I'm no expert but I would think that it took a toll on the bearings inside the transmission as well if it was putting pressure in one direction. Time to pony up and rebuilt, and make sure you do it right this time! 
Also, was your slave missing the front bushing thing when it came out? When I did my first M6 swap my slave didn't have the front bushing and it cause all sorts of problems, but I didn't know what one looked like to begin with so I didn't know something was missing.
Also, was your slave missing the front bushing thing when it came out? When I did my first M6 swap my slave didn't have the front bushing and it cause all sorts of problems, but I didn't know what one looked like to begin with so I didn't know something was missing.
07-12-2010, 01:43 PM
#4
Lateral play would only be measured with the input installed into the pilot bushing so that amount of play in your vid. is irrelevant. What you need to concern yourself with is endplay for the input/main bearings. (sidenote: you would crap your pants at how much play is in an older trans. that has non-tapered loose rollers at the main/input bearing like a basic T5.)
I do agree with your use of the bronze bushing.
I do agree with your use of the bronze bushing.
07-12-2010, 05:29 PM
#5
Yeah it had one dowel engaged. So it was close enough to work...it was "ok" for over a year. Just think the bushing finally gave up the ghost, followed by the slave. Im sure even with the one dowel engaged there was plenty of mis alignment to cause issues.
Also arc00ta...what do you mean by "front bushing"? That is exactly how the slave came out. The one that was in there was an Autozone reman unit. The one next to it is a GM unit...which is whats going back in.
Here's a pic of the first time I pulled the trans off...before I installed the new parts and the LS7 clutch.
JMD...thats along the lines of how I was thinking. The pilot bearing supports the snout. Obviously I could probably benefit from a freshen up...but its just not in the cards. Im getting married this weekend, and my company is closing its doors in the near future. Great timing huh? So Im trying to get this car back on the road. I dont think there will be any issues as long as the clutch is ok. Ill replace the pilot bearing, fix the dowel issue, pop in the new slave, and hope for the best.
Heck..it might shift better than it ever did with the dowe lined up. Not getting my hopes up or anything. Even before the noise started, one second it could shift like butter, the next like a box of rocks. Sometimes it would shift great all day long...others it would be really bad. Seems like the trans could have been shifting around...or the slave was just crapped out.
I want to re-adjust my TICK master cylinder too. Think it might be out too far. The pedal that is. See what all that gets me.
J.
Also arc00ta...what do you mean by "front bushing"? That is exactly how the slave came out. The one that was in there was an Autozone reman unit. The one next to it is a GM unit...which is whats going back in.
Here's a pic of the first time I pulled the trans off...before I installed the new parts and the LS7 clutch.
JMD...thats along the lines of how I was thinking. The pilot bearing supports the snout. Obviously I could probably benefit from a freshen up...but its just not in the cards. Im getting married this weekend, and my company is closing its doors in the near future. Great timing huh? So Im trying to get this car back on the road. I dont think there will be any issues as long as the clutch is ok. Ill replace the pilot bearing, fix the dowel issue, pop in the new slave, and hope for the best.
Heck..it might shift better than it ever did with the dowe lined up. Not getting my hopes up or anything. Even before the noise started, one second it could shift like butter, the next like a box of rocks. Sometimes it would shift great all day long...others it would be really bad. Seems like the trans could have been shifting around...or the slave was just crapped out.
I want to re-adjust my TICK master cylinder too. Think it might be out too far. The pedal that is. See what all that gets me.
J.
Last edited by ghettocruiser; 07-12-2010 at 05:51 PM.
07-12-2010, 10:38 PM
#7
The one on the left is missing a piece. You can tell quite clearly by comparing it to the other. I thought mine was supposed to be like that was well, it turns out it just fell off. It greatly impairs shifting since the slave is not as tall as it is supposed to be and the mating surface is not there.
Mine fell off probably when the guy pulled it from the car it was in and I just put it back on that way. That top race just snaps on with a plastic clip type deal, so it falls off pretty easily.
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07-13-2010, 06:12 AM
#8
I thought that was just the different bearing styles? Thats how the slave came out of the packaging. And I got like 3 different ones from autozone, they all had varying bearing styles. This was back during my swap...not recently. So the real ugly one was in the car when I got it, and the other two are various orders from autozone, trying to get the orange connector and the AP part number on the housing.
This is the one autozone unit that seems to have the bearing closest to what the GM unit has.
So youre telling me that the GM slave has a metal piece that snaps over top of the bearing? If so...Im gonna be pissed. Because then thats probably been a large part of my issue for a long time. I was pretty sure the heights were the same, but now Im not sure.
rabiddog: Ive been reading post after post about over extending the slave. But NO ONE has been able to tell me if there's a way to tell that you've gone too far. Since my car is a thirdgen, I cant use the pedal height as a reference...not that pedal height is even taken into consideration with a TICK. But every time I ask, in a thread about hydraulics, how to tell if its over extending the thread just ends. Do you have any insight onto how you can tell if you've adjusted it too far?
See...I think I adjusted my TICK too far from the get go. I followed the directions. But since I was still having rough shifts, I just sort of left it where it was. I probably blew this slave cylinder out, evident from the grease/moisture all over it. And that ring that popped off...
J.
This is the one autozone unit that seems to have the bearing closest to what the GM unit has.
So youre telling me that the GM slave has a metal piece that snaps over top of the bearing? If so...Im gonna be pissed. Because then thats probably been a large part of my issue for a long time. I was pretty sure the heights were the same, but now Im not sure.
rabiddog: Ive been reading post after post about over extending the slave. But NO ONE has been able to tell me if there's a way to tell that you've gone too far. Since my car is a thirdgen, I cant use the pedal height as a reference...not that pedal height is even taken into consideration with a TICK. But every time I ask, in a thread about hydraulics, how to tell if its over extending the thread just ends. Do you have any insight onto how you can tell if you've adjusted it too far?
See...I think I adjusted my TICK too far from the get go. I followed the directions. But since I was still having rough shifts, I just sort of left it where it was. I probably blew this slave cylinder out, evident from the grease/moisture all over it. And that ring that popped off...
J.
07-13-2010, 02:29 PM
#9
Yes. I have seen the replacements and they do have different style, the GM one has that rounded top to it. Thats why you found weird pieces on the input shaft because part of it was missing. I did the exact same thing when I did my first T56 swap, the top bushing came off the slave and I had a hell of a time shifting until I got it back out and compared the GM replacement to the GM stock one I had. The difference in height is only like 1/16th inch or whatever the thickness of that metal is, but it made a big difference. It was also wearing the pressure plate out because it had no bearing to rotate on.
07-15-2010, 09:30 PM
#10
UPDATE: Testament to bronze pilot bushings!!! Well, I pulled my clutch apart tonight just to check things over. The LS7 clutch still looks pretty good actually. The flywheel and pressure plate surfaces look good. And the disc is still nice and thick with nothing weird going on.
And I can now confirm that this was the culprit. ALWAYS CHECK YOUR DOWELS!!! This was flush with the bell housing on one side. My lazy dumb mistake. I actually think it was like that when I got the donor car...but I should have fixed it when I had the trans off.
Ready for the best part??
Here's what a pilot bushing should look like..and how it should fit on the input shaft snout.
Annnnnnnd here's what I pulled out....
So...basically the trans wasnt lined up, pitched on the only dowel. And the input shaft was beating up the pilot bushing until it opened up so far, I was getting vibes and noises.
Had I installed a pilot bearing...Ide have one busted up trans. Or at least one busted up input shaft. As it is...the snout on the trans is perfectly fine. Besides that lateral play... But Im gonna just try to run it like it is for a little while until I can rebuild. With the trans lined up with both dowels, and a new pilot bushing, things should be fine. Yes the trans should have been installed correctly. But man, that bushing sure is a nice safety net if you do screw up. At least thats my opinion on it.
I think this has been my issue all along. With the tough shifting, noises, not being able to adjust the master cylinder properly, etc etc. Im guessing things were binding. With the clutch in, the input shaft was still pressed against the side of the pilot bearing, which would keep the trans spinning faster than it should. Or something...we'll see when its back together how things work.
J.
And I can now confirm that this was the culprit. ALWAYS CHECK YOUR DOWELS!!! This was flush with the bell housing on one side. My lazy dumb mistake. I actually think it was like that when I got the donor car...but I should have fixed it when I had the trans off.
Ready for the best part??
Here's what a pilot bushing should look like..and how it should fit on the input shaft snout.
Annnnnnnd here's what I pulled out....
So...basically the trans wasnt lined up, pitched on the only dowel. And the input shaft was beating up the pilot bushing until it opened up so far, I was getting vibes and noises.
Had I installed a pilot bearing...Ide have one busted up trans. Or at least one busted up input shaft. As it is...the snout on the trans is perfectly fine. Besides that lateral play... But Im gonna just try to run it like it is for a little while until I can rebuild. With the trans lined up with both dowels, and a new pilot bushing, things should be fine. Yes the trans should have been installed correctly. But man, that bushing sure is a nice safety net if you do screw up. At least thats my opinion on it.
I think this has been my issue all along. With the tough shifting, noises, not being able to adjust the master cylinder properly, etc etc. Im guessing things were binding. With the clutch in, the input shaft was still pressed against the side of the pilot bearing, which would keep the trans spinning faster than it should. Or something...we'll see when its back together how things work.
J.
08-02-2010, 06:30 AM
#11
Just as an update...because I hate unresolved threads...
I got the trans back in yesterday and got everything buttoned up. The trans feels 1000000x times better!!! Wow. Each gear is crisp and smooth. This drivetrain combo has NEVER shifted like this.
Cruising, downshifting, hammering on it...whatever driving style its shifting nice. Pedal feel doesnt change. Shift feel doesnt change. It seems really really consistent. I even did a real hard run with her and had no trouble shifting above 6k.
Re-adjusted my Tick master cylinder to about half the travel that it was before and all seems well. I can do the rev test with no movement. Getting into 1st is easier too. I just cant describe how happy I am that its running so well. I also cant describe how mad at myself that I am for not being more careful in the first place...
Trans still needs to be freshened up, but I think this'll be ok for a while.
Anyway..thats it. Thanks again for the feedback!
J
I got the trans back in yesterday and got everything buttoned up. The trans feels 1000000x times better!!! Wow. Each gear is crisp and smooth. This drivetrain combo has NEVER shifted like this.
Cruising, downshifting, hammering on it...whatever driving style its shifting nice. Pedal feel doesnt change. Shift feel doesnt change. It seems really really consistent. I even did a real hard run with her and had no trouble shifting above 6k.
Re-adjusted my Tick master cylinder to about half the travel that it was before and all seems well. I can do the rev test with no movement. Getting into 1st is easier too. I just cant describe how happy I am that its running so well. I also cant describe how mad at myself that I am for not being more careful in the first place...
Trans still needs to be freshened up, but I think this'll be ok for a while.Anyway..thats it. Thanks again for the feedback!
J
