What is going on with my engine? - Found the problem!
08-10-2010, 03:21 PM
#1
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is going on with my engine? - Found the problem! Just finished rebuilding my engine after my Turbo 383 setup wiped out two rod bearings and bent my Eagle stroker crank....
I reused the block, put the stock crank back in together with the same Eagle rods and a set of new Mahle pistons.
The two rods that had spun the bearing was rehoned and checked.
Put in all new Clevite bearings including the cam bearings.
Clearances was in the 0.0025-0.0030 range on both the mains and rods. Cam was a little tight with the new bearings, but turned OK by hand with the gear on.
Ran the engine this weekend and at first the oil pressure was ok, but after a short while it started dropping down to around 5 psi at idle (mechanical gauge).
The total running time this weekend was about 2 hours max. Load was periodically high because I was attending a race...
I am running Valvoline Racing 10W60 synthetic oil.
Took the oil pan down today and found some shavings so I pulled a couple of rod bearings out and they did not look good. I am guessing 10 more minutes of running and they would have spun and caused even more damage.
I also fould pieces of a very small spring in the oil pan. Don't know how long the piece has been, but the largest piece I picked up was about 8mm long and about 1.2mm diameter. It is a stretch type spring.
I cannot think of anywhere in the engine that such a spring is used? Where the hell does it come from??
I am using a stock ported LS1 pump and a double roller timing chain.
Any suggestions on why the bearings are wiped out after this short running time is deeply appreciated......
I reused the block, put the stock crank back in together with the same Eagle rods and a set of new Mahle pistons.
The two rods that had spun the bearing was rehoned and checked.
Put in all new Clevite bearings including the cam bearings.
Clearances was in the 0.0025-0.0030 range on both the mains and rods. Cam was a little tight with the new bearings, but turned OK by hand with the gear on.
Ran the engine this weekend and at first the oil pressure was ok, but after a short while it started dropping down to around 5 psi at idle (mechanical gauge).
The total running time this weekend was about 2 hours max. Load was periodically high because I was attending a race...
I am running Valvoline Racing 10W60 synthetic oil.
Took the oil pan down today and found some shavings so I pulled a couple of rod bearings out and they did not look good. I am guessing 10 more minutes of running and they would have spun and caused even more damage.
I also fould pieces of a very small spring in the oil pan. Don't know how long the piece has been, but the largest piece I picked up was about 8mm long and about 1.2mm diameter. It is a stretch type spring.
I cannot think of anywhere in the engine that such a spring is used? Where the hell does it come from??
I am using a stock ported LS1 pump and a double roller timing chain.
Any suggestions on why the bearings are wiped out after this short running time is deeply appreciated......
Last edited by Roar; 08-22-2010 at 02:25 PM.
08-10-2010, 03:53 PM
#2
Wait, you had a stroker crank and put the stock crank back in and changing the pistons, to which I will assume you adjusted for the new CH and shorter stroke?
Do you have a picture of the fragments? Are you sure you didn't cavitate the pickup? O-ring good? How did you run the engine while @ your race?
Do you have a picture of the fragments? Are you sure you didn't cavitate the pickup? O-ring good? How did you run the engine while @ your race?
08-11-2010, 01:09 AM
#3
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, I put the stock crank back in together with the 6.125" Eagle rods.
The new Mahle pistons I bought was for this rod/stroke combination. The rod bearings were Clevite CB-663HN.
I woke up this morning realizing that the only place the spring fragments could have come from is from the front or rear seal.......but I am not sure hvow this would cause the rod bearings to take a dump.....
I am going to pull the rest of the rod bearings today to see if it is all of them or just a few. Luckily the chassis is constucted so I can remove most parts from the engine without taking the whole thing out.
The o-ring looks good and I am not sure how I could cavitate the pickup. I race Formula Offroad which is mostly WOT uphill driving so I always overfill the crankcase with about one quart of oil to make sure i don't starve the pickup. The engine was still pulling 50 psi of oil pressure at 5000 rpm when I parked it in the shop.
I am leaning towards the oil presure bleeding off somewhere so the crank does not get enough oil - anybody had a problem with this?
The new Mahle pistons I bought was for this rod/stroke combination. The rod bearings were Clevite CB-663HN.
I woke up this morning realizing that the only place the spring fragments could have come from is from the front or rear seal.......but I am not sure hvow this would cause the rod bearings to take a dump.....
I am going to pull the rest of the rod bearings today to see if it is all of them or just a few. Luckily the chassis is constucted so I can remove most parts from the engine without taking the whole thing out.
The o-ring looks good and I am not sure how I could cavitate the pickup. I race Formula Offroad which is mostly WOT uphill driving so I always overfill the crankcase with about one quart of oil to make sure i don't starve the pickup. The engine was still pulling 50 psi of oil pressure at 5000 rpm when I parked it in the shop.
I am leaning towards the oil presure bleeding off somewhere so the crank does not get enough oil - anybody had a problem with this?
08-11-2010, 01:15 AM
#4
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a clip from this weekend race in Finland.
My car is the first one in the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vya7J9wOhkQ
My car is the first one in the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vya7J9wOhkQ
08-11-2010, 11:22 AM
#7
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, I am a little worried about the mains as well but I will know in a couple of hours.....
My biggest question is WHY?? I would hate to put this back together without knowing the source of the problem.
Come to think of this: Do people have problems with the cam retainer and/or rear cover bleeding oil pressure from the main galley?? These seals are still the stock '02 ones but seem to be OK to me.
Have a new race on three weeks and if the mains are gone I have a serious problem. Over here in Norway I just can't go to the local pick-a-part and buy this kind of shortblock or complete engine - not even a 5.3 og 6.0 liter
My biggest question is WHY?? I would hate to put this back together without knowing the source of the problem.
Come to think of this: Do people have problems with the cam retainer and/or rear cover bleeding oil pressure from the main galley?? These seals are still the stock '02 ones but seem to be OK to me.
Have a new race on three weeks and if the mains are gone I have a serious problem. Over here in Norway I just can't go to the local pick-a-part and buy this kind of shortblock or complete engine - not even a 5.3 og 6.0 liter
Trending Topics
08-11-2010, 02:10 PM
#11
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No typo....This is european made Valvoline VR1 Racing 10W60. Excellent oil which I have been running for years (but only last and this year in GENIII engine) - before that I used a similar oil from Castrol which also was 10W60 called TWS. Gives a great oil film even when extremely hot.
No additives used in the oil.
Pulled the rest of the rod bearings tonight and five of them were severely damaged while the rest was just scratched by the debris in the system.
Also pulled mains 1-2-3 and they looked OK, but also had some debris scratches.
Seems like the rods were starved for oil, but not the mains??????
Think I have to pull the engine out of the car again and that really sucks!!!!!
Was kinda hoping just to replace the o-ring when I started.....
No additives used in the oil.
Pulled the rest of the rod bearings tonight and five of them were severely damaged while the rest was just scratched by the debris in the system.
Also pulled mains 1-2-3 and they looked OK, but also had some debris scratches.
Seems like the rods were starved for oil, but not the mains??????
Think I have to pull the engine out of the car again and that really sucks!!!!!
Was kinda hoping just to replace the o-ring when I started.....
08-11-2010, 02:45 PM
#12
No typo....This is european made Valvoline VR1 Racing 10W60. Excellent oil which I have been running for years (but only last and this year in GENIII engine) - before that I used a similar oil from Castrol which also was 10W60 called TWS. Gives a great oil film even when extremely hot.
08-11-2010, 03:24 PM
#13
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The oil is still 10W when cold so it is no problem.
The viscosity when cold is no different than a 10W40 or 10W30 oil.
I had the same oil in the engine with the 383 crank and all bearings were perfect when I pulled them except for the two that spun. This was due to severe knock on these two cylinders because of two fuel injectors taking a dump at full boost..... also melted a ringland on one of the pistons as well (forged Mahle). This engine had even run in below zero temperatures.
I had a theory tonight: if the spring piece is from the front seal it might have popped off when I pulled the damper on. It might have been chewed into small enough pieces by the timing chain so it was abel to pass through the oil pickup screen.....these pieces would puch right through the paper in the oil filter and made their way into the pressurized part of the system. Sounds plausible in theory???
Hopefully I will have time to pull the rest tomorrow to see if the spring is missing there.
The viscosity when cold is no different than a 10W40 or 10W30 oil.
I had the same oil in the engine with the 383 crank and all bearings were perfect when I pulled them except for the two that spun. This was due to severe knock on these two cylinders because of two fuel injectors taking a dump at full boost..... also melted a ringland on one of the pistons as well (forged Mahle). This engine had even run in below zero temperatures.
I had a theory tonight: if the spring piece is from the front seal it might have popped off when I pulled the damper on. It might have been chewed into small enough pieces by the timing chain so it was abel to pass through the oil pickup screen.....these pieces would puch right through the paper in the oil filter and made their way into the pressurized part of the system. Sounds plausible in theory???
Hopefully I will have time to pull the rest tomorrow to see if the spring is missing there.
08-12-2010, 07:33 AM
#15
The oil is still 10W when cold so it is no problem.
The viscosity when cold is no different than a 10W40 or 10W30 oil.
I had the same oil in the engine with the 383 crank and all bearings were perfect when I pulled them except for the two that spun. This was due to severe knock on these two cylinders because of two fuel injectors taking a dump at full boost..... also melted a ringland on one of the pistons as well (forged Mahle). This engine had even run in below zero temperatures.
I had a theory tonight: if the spring piece is from the front seal it might have popped off when I pulled the damper on. It might have been chewed into small enough pieces by the timing chain so it was abel to pass through the oil pickup screen.....these pieces would puch right through the paper in the oil filter and made their way into the pressurized part of the system. Sounds plausible in theory???
Hopefully I will have time to pull the rest tomorrow to see if the spring is missing there.
The viscosity when cold is no different than a 10W40 or 10W30 oil.
I had the same oil in the engine with the 383 crank and all bearings were perfect when I pulled them except for the two that spun. This was due to severe knock on these two cylinders because of two fuel injectors taking a dump at full boost..... also melted a ringland on one of the pistons as well (forged Mahle). This engine had even run in below zero temperatures.
I had a theory tonight: if the spring piece is from the front seal it might have popped off when I pulled the damper on. It might have been chewed into small enough pieces by the timing chain so it was abel to pass through the oil pickup screen.....these pieces would puch right through the paper in the oil filter and made their way into the pressurized part of the system. Sounds plausible in theory???
Hopefully I will have time to pull the rest tomorrow to see if the spring is missing there.
08-12-2010, 01:27 PM
#17
TECH Fanatic
Silly question maybe, but my first engine build i had done went wrong when the shop installed my Scat Rods wrong, i had oil pressure problems, over fuelling, my bearings after 10k aprox looked like they had done 300k in a bad engine, was eventually told that Those Rods are set up different than the standed ones. As for spring....it's not from your ported oil pump?
08-12-2010, 03:39 PM
#18
I was thinking of the initial oil, so as per say the first 20 minutes/miles when seating the rings. Granted, more important for flat tappets, but I was always under the impression needed for filling the gaps of all initial worn surfaces from the initial start up.
08-13-2010, 03:08 AM
#19
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me and a friend were studying parts and brainstoming last night debating what might be the problem.
Lining up each rod bearing pair from front to rear it seems like the front ones have "run out" of oil??
The bearings get more or less progressively worse from rear to front and the oil feeds from the rear so that might be the cause, but why?
Can the oil pump loose volume? I opened it up and it seems OK - a little rugh surfaces due to dirt in the system from the bearings but nothing major.
I also put in new lifters when I changed the crank and pistons but I cannot see how that would matter? New GM lifters.
The front seal does not have a spring (just a single lip with no spring groove) so its not from there. I have not pulled the rear cover yet to look at that seal because I need to take out the trans first. Just cannot think of any other place in the engine that has this thin pull type spring......
How could I install the rods wrong? I have Eagle H beam rods and the chamfered side goes out toward the crank and the plain side to the other rod. Torqued to ARP spec on the ARP2000 bolts with moly lube (like I always do...)
Is there some secret I don't know??
Lining up each rod bearing pair from front to rear it seems like the front ones have "run out" of oil??
The bearings get more or less progressively worse from rear to front and the oil feeds from the rear so that might be the cause, but why?
Can the oil pump loose volume? I opened it up and it seems OK - a little rugh surfaces due to dirt in the system from the bearings but nothing major.
I also put in new lifters when I changed the crank and pistons but I cannot see how that would matter? New GM lifters.
The front seal does not have a spring (just a single lip with no spring groove) so its not from there. I have not pulled the rear cover yet to look at that seal because I need to take out the trans first. Just cannot think of any other place in the engine that has this thin pull type spring......
How could I install the rods wrong? I have Eagle H beam rods and the chamfered side goes out toward the crank and the plain side to the other rod. Torqued to ARP spec on the ARP2000 bolts with moly lube (like I always do...)
Is there some secret I don't know??
08-22-2010, 02:34 PM
#20
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I found the source for the oil pressure loss - the no 2 cam bearing had walked back a little exposing the oil feed hole
Had not rotated, just moved backwards, why
I had just changed them, and yes I put the right bearings in the correct places using an installation tool.
I found a couple of other guys on here that have had the same issue with the no2 bearing for no apparent reason.....
Also, I found the source for the little spring.
The source for this is the spring on the valve stem seal.....why would this come off??????
I have Patriot heads complete with gold springs bought complete from patriot and installed as-is.
I am only running 0.588 lift at 7000 rpm so it should not be a problem?
Had not rotated, just moved backwards, why
I had just changed them, and yes I put the right bearings in the correct places using an installation tool.
I found a couple of other guys on here that have had the same issue with the no2 bearing for no apparent reason.....
Also, I found the source for the little spring.
The source for this is the spring on the valve stem seal.....why would this come off??????
I have Patriot heads complete with gold springs bought complete from patriot and installed as-is.
I am only running 0.588 lift at 7000 rpm so it should not be a problem?