General LSX Automobile Discussion - odd request

So, a while ago my car was stolen, and long-story-short the police somehow wanna try pinning the theft on me. Yes, you heard me right, they say I stole my own car. Anyway, their "evidence" consists of the insurance agency claiming that these cars (and the Passkey system) are unstealable.

SO, with that being said, would anyone who has a parts car or roller lying around mind making a quick video for me? I wish to show the prosecutor that F-bodies with T-Tops are notoriously easy to get into. I have explained to them earlier that in the past I have locked myself out of the car and reached through the window and unlatched the t-tops in order to get in (without the dumb alarm going off), and they went to a local GM dealership and asked a tech there if that was possible... he explained that the windows do not flex AT ALL, and there is no way to bend the glass out the 1 inch needed to slide your hand in and flip the latch.

So, if anyone would be kind enough to make a quick video of themselves popping the t-top latch from outside the car, I would be grateful.



Bonus points for anyone who has an ebay vats bypass box, or a self-built one (the kind that plugs into the PCM from inside the engine bay), and can demonstrate how it functions.

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.

Uhhh I thought these things got stolen all the time lol. Sounds like you need to get a better insurance company. Wish I could help you out, good luck!

I have heard that you can use a screwdriver from outside the car and go in from under the door handle. There's a small hole there I believe that when you push the screw driver through it it unlatches the door. Not sure about the alarm on this, but I swear I remember reading on here that someones car got broken into and a ton of stereo equipment got stolen because of it.

Interesting to know. Are there any "official" GM documents that can confirm this? or how to bypass the vats by supplying power to the fuel pump wire? It is obviously more beneficial for my case if there are published works explaining these basic things that most Fbody owners know from personal experience.

Also, it would be helpful if someone can find a published document stating how the VATS system can "disable" itself in an event that it discovers an error would be useful. I have seen people talking about this before, and experienced it myself once, where the security light is on, and the VATS just doesnt bother trying to match resistors, yet still allows the car to still operate.

Yes, it would be helpful if someone would do it.

Why don't you try to find a way to break into your own car to prove to them it's possible. I guess someone could do it if they had a laptop and tuned VATS out right there...

Wow this sounds like a fucked up situation!
I bet your insurance company just doesn't want to pay up!

Um well my v6 95 Camaro worked without a chip (pellet) even in the key. And I also used my friends key from his 95 Z to start my car when we couldn't find my keys. If i still had the car I would make a video starting it up with both keys from both cars to help you out. I wouldn't wanna risk breaking my window trying to unlatch the t-top though. Although i'm sure I could.

I suppose in your county I would've stole my own radio huh?

I don't have access to my car right now so I can't make a video, but a couple months ago I locked my keys in my car. Its a hardtop. All I had to do was get a 1x1 board about 3 feet long, nail a nail in to one end of the board so that it was left prtotruding about 3 inches. So it looked something like this _______________| I then pulled on the window with my fingers creating a gap between the window and door frame large enough for the board to fit through. Then I simply pushed the board inside and used the nail to unlock the door. Finding the board, nail, hammer and making the 'tool' as well as breaking into my car took 10-15 minutes max. Since I have the board I could break into the car in a minute, maybe less. It really was too easy, I was supprised.

I wish i still had the car so I could pull them all out of court and start tearing their case apart myself. But unfortunately I do not. I have a feeling that telling them to come here to read the stories that people have about VATS being disabled with a laptop, and different keys operating everything is not going to be sufficient evidence. What is messed up is that they have NOTHING to prove anything, other than circumstantial evidence and a forensic locksmith's word that the car could ONLY be operated with a key (who was hired by the insurance company no less), the damn cops have done NO investigative work on this at all, mearly using things that the insurance company pulled out of their ass. If I could find some repair manuals or GM recalls to back up some of this stuff, I would have a good old time in court and embrace the hell out of all of em.

As for Z28_LT1, I don't have my firebird, so I cannot produce this evidence myself, hence asking. I have researched this crap way too much the past 6 months, and found some rather scary things... such as a how-to manual on how to bypass vats from inside the engine bay, and ebay bypass boxes, however... it won't hold up in court without video proof, or an "expert" verifying it (a GM manual explaining the theory behind it will suffice). We all know here that the vats RARELY functions perfectly for the life of the car, hence the need for people to bypass it. We all know that the window can be pulled back to reach in, or use a stick to unlock the door... but if a GM tech claims it is impossible to move that window... they are going to believe his word instead of mine unless I can come up with some way to show otherwise.

Yes, I realize people may assume I am doing this to learn how to steal a car, or just trying to gain a personal army to do this for me, but I am not. If someone who has access to a junker to make a quick video, that would be great. If someone has access to some repair manuals or diagrams to illustrate my point, that would be awesome. Unfortunatly I have no clue where to even begin finding such documents, but I know some of the techs here do... hence asking.

I wish I could help. Print up all the F-bodies that have been stolen in Louisiana and Mississippi the last few months. That should be enough evidence. I think your insurance company just doesn't want to pay up. If I were you, get another insurance company after this is all said and done. BTW, what insurance company is this? I got a feeling it's a small insurance company, if so, get insured with Allstate, State Farm, etc. they're not going to screw you around like small companies, they have a name to protect. Example, {this just happened to me 2 yrs. ago} I totaled my 2001 Z28 and I only made 1 payment {just bought it} they paid out $17,xxx, so that left me with only a $1,xxx left to pay it off.

well of course you could take the ttops off from outside the car with the windows up.. shit if you couldnt then why the hell would they put a lock on the ttops?

progressive... I had no problem with them til this event.

I hit a deer, they total car and pay off loan
I get cut off and spin out on ice, they pay the repair
I sit in class and NOT drive the car while it is destroyed... they pay nothing

Seems as long as I admit I screwed up, they will pay, the instant something happens that I did not do... CRIMINAL!!! FRAUD!!!!

well of course you could take the ttops off from outside the car with the windows up.. shit if you couldnt then why the hell would they put a lock on the ttops?

with the windows rolled up.... I.E. the door locked, windows up, t-tops latched and unlocked (who the hell locks them anyway?)

Are you actually being prosecuted for a felony?? If so, you better get an attorney that can actually work for you instead of asking questions on the internet. Also, if you are actually being charged with a crime, what is the probable cause?? An insurance investigator needs more than a hunch, and law enforcement needs more than that as well. There is evidence or the case would be dismissed. Read the affadavit. What is it??

The same thing happened with a guy I knew here. His SS was stolen and law enforcement tried to blame it on him.

misdemeanor fraud and 3 counts interfering with a police investigation. Yes, i have a lawyer, but I have always been one to do things myself and make sure they are done right, the more I can find to back up my side, the better.

They have no hard evidence, I was in class all day with plenty of witnesses, security guard saw car there earlier in day, and not there later in day while i was still in class. Their "evidence" is that I was 3 days late on my car payment at that point (still within the 15 day grace period), the insurance-hired forensic investigator saying that the key that "last operated this car" was one of the "proper type" (no shit since I drove it TO the investigator after they recorvered it), and a GM tech saying the windows dont bend and the only way in the door is to use a key... sigh.

I live in a hillbilly town of less than 9000 people, with a grand total of two auto thefts a year... and a gung-ho detective who doesnt want a black mark on his perfect cities record. The detective himself said that if this was a bigger city, the case would have been thrown out, but they have so few major issues that they can spend the year trying to prove my guilt. :(

In this city, a police officers opinion is enough evidence to start a case, no evidence needed to initiate. Hopefully they don't use the same logic in determining guilt.

well i have a vats box for sale if your interested in buying it

if interested pm me

The '96 I had, I was able to completely pull the window back...out of the channel. Far back enough to where the front edge of the window would peel back and off of the rubber triangle thing by the mirror. I was able to get my whole arm in there to unlock my door. Once done, I simply rolled the window down, and everything popped into place on it's own.

Now, I don't know if it matters, but I had a hardtop and hand crank windows.

how do you or the police know that the thieves drove the car away? a lot of thieves these days are upgrading themselves to flat beds.

how do you or the police know that the thieves drove the car away? a lot of thieves these days are upgrading themselves to flat beds.

i was going to ask this. also, HTF do they know if someone didnt break a window carefully leaving no glass behind. what a bunch of BS trying to prosecute without any real proof.

That sucks bro, but for every f-body owner out there its better if we don't show people on the internet how to break into our cars.

Car was found in a ditch with skidmarks leading to it a few miles away, hence the idea that it was driven. As for people finding out how to do this, well.. its common knowledge here that you can reach in the glass with a stick to unlock the doors, i would expect that any video or something would be RARed and a link PMed to me or something to at least somewhat remain a "secret" though... a simple search of "locked out" leads to several posts on people explaining how to open the doors without a key.

In this city, a police officers opinion is enough evidence to start a case, no evidence needed to initiate. Hopefully they don't use the same logic in determining guilt.

if they actually try to bring charges against you for this, just call a major news outlet. a conservative one, like FOX, would just LOVE to show how a local government is trying to screw a hard working guy. This is a joke.

To the OP, thanks for the reply and at least the charges are misdemeanors but something is seriously amiss here. It doesn't matter if the town is 9,000 or 90,000 there are certain prosecutorial 'needs' to proceed with a trial and prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. I'm sure you were asked about spare keys and if someone else you know may have driven off with the car while you were in class. Were you protecting a buddy or is that the problem the investigators are having? What are the 3 counts of 'interfering' about? Again, what is the evidence on these three charges? Giving a true account of your whereabouts to police does not cause 3 counts to be brought against you. Again, something is seriously amiss here and I'd really like to hear the entire story.

To the OP, thanks for the reply and at least the charges are misdemeanors but something is seriously amiss here. It doesn't matter if the town is 9,000 or 90,000 there are certain prosecutorial 'needs' to proceed with a trial and prove 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. I'm sure you were asked about spare keys and if someone else you know may have driven off with the car while you were in class. Were you protecting a buddy or is that the problem the investigators are having? What are the 3 counts of 'interfering' about? Again, what is the evidence on these three charges? Giving a true account of your whereabouts to police does not cause 3 counts to be brought against you. Again, something is seriously amiss here and I'd really like to hear the entire story.

I was asked about spare keys, I showed them the set of keys still on my key ring, and the spare set hanging on the wall of my house. I was asked if someone else had access to the car, no one I knew of did. I had the car up for sale at the time, and handed over emails of anyone who inquired about it. The 3 counts of interfering are because the detective assigned to my case claimed I lied to him about not being involved after he spoke to the insurance investigator who said it was impossible to steal this kind of car, so they are attempting to charge me with interfering for every time that I spoke with the police regarding this (aka, every time they called me and asked if I was involved.) I was in class from 5pm til 9pm, with a signed report from my instructor saying that I never left the room, and video surveillance inside the building to back that up.. apparently that is not good enough for them. Standard legal requirements apparently don't apply in redneck little towns.

I will try to post a pic of the document of the charges, which makes absolutely no sense at all, and that was the ONLY thing that the judge needed to send it to trial.. its absolutely bogus.

what GM tech did they go to? GMgoodwrench? and if these cars are so impossible to steal, why do so many get stolen/broken into? these alegations are completely laughable, supposing your telling the truth.

for what it's worth i found a step by step guide to breaking into these cars in 10-15 seconds just by googling "how to break into a camaro"

If I knew it would lock your case up, I would gladly drive up to Wisconsin and let you demonstrate the ease of breaking into the car. For some reason, I think your display would be used against you somehow (or worse, they'd try to pin it on me). Whoever at GM said the f-body windows do not flex is fucking stupid. My windows flex going through the dryers at the damn car wash.

Thanks again Xephona. Appreciate the response.

that break in section is a good read

i suspect they think since you were trying to sell it you mightve had it stolen instead. still BS.


id like them to explain how other fbodies were stolen if these cars are impossible to break into. is there security cameras where you car was parked?

i suspect they think since you were trying to sell it you mightve had it stolen instead. still BS.


id like them to explain how other fbodies were stolen if these cars are impossible to break into. is there security cameras where you car was parked?

Thats the beauty of it. There WERE cameras in the parking lot... but unfortunately they were damaged in a lightning strike the night before (now how in the world would anyone know that in order to plan this is beyond me), so there is no video evidence aside from myself not leaving the classroom til the end of class.

Pictures of the "probable cause" that led to this going to court, sorry I don't have a scanner... My name, and a "witness" for the prosecution's name have been poorly blacked out.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2qxc090.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/24qn8nd.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/2i78dg8.jpg

Some details involved in this reading that I didn't mention prior, a key was found on the floor when they retrieved the car, looked like a GM key with no resistor chip, and the black plastic removed from the base of it. Wires under the dash were cut, yellow ones... (for the airbag.. wtf?).

The statement about the GM tech is pretty much what I said earlier... cept he is poorly recalling when I went out and bought a blank key just for the resistor chip (I wanted keyless entry in my car several months prior to this incident, so I swapped out the BCM for one with keyless entry... and it was linked to a new chip obviously. Instructions about it that I wrote up are found here: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/stereo-electronics/1038354-keyless-entry.html#post10726798) The VATS system worked perfectly at the time that they tested it (2 days after the car was recovered and returned to me), when the car was found in the ditch, and towed to the police station for me to examine, the headlights were popped up and off.. first thing out of my mouth to the cop was.. "huh, battery is dead" and instantly got on my ass about how I would know that... I am sure anyone who has driven these cars at night ONCE realizes that those headlights will NOT go down and off until you hit that switch, and will drain the batt if you leave em on.. but OH NO, that doesn't make sense at all to the redneck cop.

Bastard had the balls to call me up when I am on my way back to class a few days later and ask me to come down to the station and confess to stealing my own car.. I believe the way he put it was, "After speaking with progressive, it is obvious that you are lying to me, so I would like you to come down to the station and sign a confession, if you do.. I will make sure the DA is lenient with you on your charges. If you wish to continue lying to me about your involvement, don't bother coming in." Seriously? How the hell are you supposed to respond to a rigged ass question like that?

Thanks again for sharing. The affadavit is well written but the evidence is somewhat circumstantial at face value. Does probable cause exist? Yes, definitely, but even that is somewhat inconclusive and I'm surprised the prosecuting attorney didn't ask for further investigation and interviews. Maybe he did (and we aren't getting the full story) but your attorney should be aware of any other supplemental evidence against you. Will this be a jury trial or are misdemeanors handled by the judge in WI?? Jurors may empathize with you where the judge works every week with the same attorney and officers. You can see the problem here.

*** No way can I say guilty or not guilty without hearing everything but here is something to ponder that is not good, but is reasonable to many. This is almost a case where law enforcement has absolutely nothing to go on as far as leads or any other related incidents, which leads directly to you only. 1)No other similar thefts. 2)No suspects whatsoever. 3)Terrible timing with the e/mails and then the theft. Ouch! 4)The key (this is real bad for you). The insurance investigator's testimony will have a lot of weight. There are other things as well. I can see problems here. Also, I know you started this thread to see how someone can steal an F-body but it almost sounds like you are reaching, looking for other possibilities. This isn't good either. If you screwed up this is NOT the end of the world, certainly not with misdemeanors. Whatever happens, put this behind you and move on. This is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Good luck with school and your future!

Yes to jury trial, I have already spoken to two attorneys about this, and the judges in this county are absolutely incompetent, there is something like a 67% turnover rate when people appeal the judges decision. Pretty much a kangaroo court county.

This is all the "evidence" they have, prosecution flat out told my attorney that all they had was circumstantial evidence and that she refused to drop the case, or even make a REASONABLE deal (their offer was 4 months in Huber, 200 hours community service, 18 months probation, $3000 fine + costs). The police have done ZERO investigation, mearly trusting the work of the insurance agency, and there are plenty of thefts in this town, no one locks their doors (except me), ... police mearly change the wording of the report to "joyriding" once the vehicle is found and the dumb high school kid who did it is arrested.

They had 3 suspects the day they found out, stupid detective flat out asked me "do you know these 3 people who were arrested last night? they all have prior auto theft records" and listed 3 names.... that doesn't seem illegal/immoral at all.

Emails mean nothing really, so I was selling it, so he said he couldnt afford it, doesn't mean HE didnt say no... then drive over the next night and snag it. In his emails he stated that he worked on T/As quite often. Lovely how they instantly jump to the conclusion that I did it though.

The key... well that boggles my mind, there was no DNA/fingerprints on it that link me to that thing at all, and an employee at GM couldnt POSSIBLY have made the key themselves to snag the car (I live 2 blocks away from the dealership and drive past every day). Yep.. I am the only one who could have duplicated a key with NO RESISTOR... grrr

The insurance adjustors testimony should theoretically have ZERO weight, it is a conflict of interest. They have a business that revolves around taking money and paying out to claims that they cannot refute. Not to mention that they did a poor job of investigating... such as waiting 2-3 days after I have the vehicle in my possession to examine it. Their investigation really was... "look at external damage - minor, look at internal damage with a fluid sample - metal shavings inside TRANSMISSION fluid... OH NO! MANUAL TRANSMISSION CAR WITH METAL SHAVINGS... ABUSSSEEEEE!!!, look at ignition system - huh.. it works... slight forced entry marks... meh, must have been operated with a key)

And I did not start this thread to see how someone would steal one, I know full well on how someone can and will. I mearly would like some sort of evidence that I can use on my behalf to counter their bogus crap. I seriously am interested in ONLY a quick video (hell, I will make it myself if someone wants to loan me use of their car for 5 minutes), or access to an offical GM repair manual that describes the VATS system to back up my logic.

Why do I need to ASK someone how to steal one of these cars? If I wanted to do it.. I would <DELETED>

It isn't that damn complicated to snag these cars, less than 5 minutes with ZERO noise (short of starting the car), I do NOT need instructions on how to do that, I mearly want some sort of proof that will hold up in court, without me having to borrow someone elses car and park it in the bloody courtroom. I really have no desire to steal anything, or continue researching methods that someone could have possibly done when mine was taken... I want this dumb court crap over... WITHOUT being charged with something I didn't do, and finish schooling.

If I were you I wouldn't bother with this video, they'll use it against you, and you better hope they don't somehow get ahold of that last paragraph you just wrote.
As far as the windows flexing i don't see how that matters. These doors have the same basic lock mechanism as they did in 1970 and can be slim jim'd in seconds.
Any half decent lawyer should get this case thrown out IMO.

If I were you I wouldn't bother with this video, they'll use it against you, and you better hope they don't somehow get ahold of that last paragraph you just wrote.
As far as the windows flexing i don't see how that matters. These doors have the same basic lock mechanism as they did in 1970 and can be slim jim'd in seconds.
Any half decent lawyer should get this case thrown out IMO.

Indeed, but if they wish to have a GM tech as a witness who says the windows do NOT bend, then it is only fair that I use that against them to show how stupid they really are...

show them that the windows bend. Problem solved. Good Luck!

show them that the windows bend. Problem solved. Good Luck!

... and that would be why I request someone with access to a T-Topped F-body to make a quick video :P

if I wasnt such a pansy, I'd go make the video, but I cant afford to replace the glass if I broke it. I wonder if you can prove to them that glass is a soquid (solid liquid) and that over time, glass tends to lose thickness at the top and gain it at the bottom.

On another note, have you tried finding a local junkyard with a t-top f-body? Maybe make the video there?