New Performabuilt Level 2 - Shudder in 3rd... any thoughts?
09-04-2010, 03:40 PM
#1
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
New Performabuilt Level 2 - Shudder in 3rd... any thoughts? Hello all!
Long story short, I finally got my level 2 tranny from Performabuilt installed and I took the car out today and drove it around for about an hour (checking for
leaks frequently). I also got their TC, and the torque converter's stall speed is supposed to be close to stock.
Under light acceleration, everything is perfect.
Toward the last half of the hour of cruising, I decided to push on it a little
bit... nothing crazy, as I imagine that it needs a bit of a break in
period...So, From a stop, under 1/2-3/4 throttle, the tranny shifts perfectly smoothly from 1-2, but from 2-3 it revs over 3k before catching, then there is a slight shuddering until 4th.
If crusing in 4th, then pressing the throttle enough to kick down to 3rd, the shudder returns until it shifts back to 4th.
I checked the fluid level at several points on the trip and the level is good... no drips under the car at any point.
Any thoughts?
Long story short, I finally got my level 2 tranny from Performabuilt installed and I took the car out today and drove it around for about an hour (checking for
leaks frequently). I also got their TC, and the torque converter's stall speed is supposed to be close to stock.
Under light acceleration, everything is perfect.
Toward the last half of the hour of cruising, I decided to push on it a little
bit... nothing crazy, as I imagine that it needs a bit of a break in
period...So, From a stop, under 1/2-3/4 throttle, the tranny shifts perfectly smoothly from 1-2, but from 2-3 it revs over 3k before catching, then there is a slight shuddering until 4th.
If crusing in 4th, then pressing the throttle enough to kick down to 3rd, the shudder returns until it shifts back to 4th.
I checked the fluid level at several points on the trip and the level is good... no drips under the car at any point.
Any thoughts?
09-04-2010, 04:21 PM
#2
I'd do the same drive with a foot resting on the brake pedal just enough to turn the brake lights on, this will disable the torque converter from locking.
The problem sounds like a slipping tcc. I seriously doubt thats the problem, but this test will confirm it by preventing lock up.
The problem sounds like a slipping tcc. I seriously doubt thats the problem, but this test will confirm it by preventing lock up.
09-04-2010, 04:25 PM
#3
I would add a little fluid till its just over the crosshatch . And I need a better description of what you mean by on the 2-3 revs to over 3k before shifting?
And do all the shifts feel firm there could be a presure issue and what if anything ws the issue with your previous trans ?
Also note if the converter bolts you are using are too long they will hit the inside of the face of the converter and cause converter clutch failure and shudder and all of that. because they will bend the converter face and make dimples in the clutch surface.
I mention this because you mentioned in your email that the converter bolt heads were hitting the sheild and this could indeed cause the shudder feeling.
And do all the shifts feel firm there could be a presure issue and what if anything ws the issue with your previous trans ?
Also note if the converter bolts you are using are too long they will hit the inside of the face of the converter and cause converter clutch failure and shudder and all of that. because they will bend the converter face and make dimples in the clutch surface.
I mention this because you mentioned in your email that the converter bolt heads were hitting the sheild and this could indeed cause the shudder feeling.
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Last edited by performabuilt; 09-04-2010 at 04:31 PM.
09-04-2010, 08:03 PM
#4
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
I'll hit these one by one... Hope it helps! 
The fluid is in the "hot" crosshatch, when the tranny is hot... You want me to add more?
While the throttle remains at the same level, the trans shifts quickly and smoothly from 1-2, but as it shifts out of 2 and into 3, it revs to over 3k before it engages 3, then shudders until it shifts from 3-4.
1-2 feels solid
2-3 does not feel solid
3 shudders until going to 4
3-4 feels solid
My stock trans would not shift into 4th... It would shift from 1-2, 2-3, but as it heated up after about 15 mins of driving in the hills it would stop shifting into 4th.. it just revved like it was in neutral until the RPM's slowed, then it seemed to "catch", but if you pressed the throttle it would just slip again...
Stock trans had 142k miles.
The bolts are the same as stock length - they do not touch the converter. The bolt heads were hitting the dust cover for the place where the starter mounts - This is apparently a fairly normal thing for the TCI flexplate, since it is not concave/convex (depending on the direction you're looking) - It has pads to make the stock flexplate distance.
Please let me know if there's more info I can provide to help! I was really looking forward to using my car again!
The fluid is in the "hot" crosshatch, when the tranny is hot... You want me to add more?
2-3 does not feel solid
3 shudders until going to 4
3-4 feels solid
My stock trans would not shift into 4th... It would shift from 1-2, 2-3, but as it heated up after about 15 mins of driving in the hills it would stop shifting into 4th.. it just revved like it was in neutral until the RPM's slowed, then it seemed to "catch", but if you pressed the throttle it would just slip again...
Stock trans had 142k miles.
Also note if the converter bolts you are using are too long they will hit the inside of the face of the converter and cause converter clutch failure and shudder and all of that. because they will bend the converter face and make dimples in the clutch surface.
I mention this because you mentioned in your email that the converter bolt heads were hitting the sheild and this could indeed cause the shudder feeling.
I mention this because you mentioned in your email that the converter bolt heads were hitting the sheild and this could indeed cause the shudder feeling.
Please let me know if there's more info I can provide to help! I was really looking forward to using my car again!
09-04-2010, 11:27 PM
#5
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
I'd do the same drive with a foot resting on the brake pedal just enough to turn the brake lights on, this will disable the torque converter from locking.
The problem sounds like a slipping tcc. I seriously doubt thats the problem, but this test will confirm it by preventing lock up.
The problem sounds like a slipping tcc. I seriously doubt thats the problem, but this test will confirm it by preventing lock up.
I'll check that out tomorrow morning on the way to church! I don't know why it would fail to lock on 3rd only, but who knows!
09-05-2010, 07:23 PM
#7
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ha! go figure, it doesnt work. Had a buddy buy one and it never worked right. Thank god for other companies who know what there doing. He was out the $2,000 but hes happy now that he has a working trans.
good luck swapping them out 30 times because they will never be able to get it to work right.
good luck swapping them out 30 times because they will never be able to get it to work right.
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09-06-2010, 12:05 PM
#9
Did you do the test that was mentioned hold the brake slightly I would do that first. And of course if there is and isue we will take care or it just trying to eliminate all possibilites first. However while it could have been just from being old the original trans symptoms are similar to the one you mention which could be and indication of presure issue also. In any case we will get to the bottom of it and get it solved.
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09-06-2010, 12:54 PM
#11
It's also worse with converters that have no TCC damper springs.
09-06-2010, 01:27 PM
#12
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Did you do the test that was mentioned hold the brake slightly I would do that first. And of course if there is and isue we will take care or it just trying to eliminate all possibilites first. However while it could have been just from being old the original trans symptoms are similar to the one you mention which could be and indication of presure issue also. In any case we will get to the bottom of it and get it solved.
Your thoughts?
09-06-2010, 01:49 PM
#13
First off i think you should have contacted Performabuilt and discussed this as a customer and vendor and not start a post on a forum but I guess people don't bother to do that anymore.
Has your PCM ever been tuned? If so, you need to see if the trans tables have been messed with. Also, try cleaning the MAF, the functionality of the MAF is critical to trans shifting.
Has your PCM ever been tuned? If so, you need to see if the trans tables have been messed with. Also, try cleaning the MAF, the functionality of the MAF is critical to trans shifting.
09-06-2010, 02:22 PM
#14
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
First off i think you should have contacted Performabuilt and discussed this as a customer and vendor and not start a post on a forum but I guess people don't bother to do that anymore.
Has your PCM ever been tuned? If so, you need to see if the trans tables have been messed with. Also, try cleaning the MAF, the functionality of the MAF is critical to trans shifting.
Has your PCM ever been tuned? If so, you need to see if the trans tables have been messed with. Also, try cleaning the MAF, the functionality of the MAF is critical to trans shifting.
Regarding the useful part of your post: No. The PCM has not been tuned, as performabuilt requests that the car retain the stock tune for their tranny's. I've cleaned the maf in the last year, but it's always worth a shot. How does the MAF reading affect/interact with shifting? I know it affects air/fuel mix etc... but never heard of a relation to shift points, etc..
Regarding the useless part of your post: You have absolutely no idea what I tried to do before posting on this forum. I have not said anything negative about the vendor, nor their products. I have very high expectations for the outcome of the discussion and every faith that Performabuilt will help to make things right. As such, please keep the discussion techinical.
09-06-2010, 03:08 PM
#15
It reads how much air is going into the engine and uses that and other sensors to calculate engine load.
Calculated engine load references the force motor current table which raises and lowers line pressure.
It's not very likely that the MAF is going to effect only one gear.
Especially with the inherent problems of the 4L60E's 2-3 shift strategy.
Calculated engine load references the force motor current table which raises and lowers line pressure.
It's not very likely that the MAF is going to effect only one gear.
Especially with the inherent problems of the 4L60E's 2-3 shift strategy.
09-06-2010, 05:43 PM
#16
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ha! go figure, it doesnt work. Had a buddy buy one and it never worked right. Thank god for other companies who know what there doing. He was out the $2,000 but hes happy now that he has a working trans.
good luck swapping them out 30 times because they will never be able to get it to work right.
good luck swapping them out 30 times because they will never be able to get it to work right.
09-06-2010, 05:54 PM
#17
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If you dont have anything technical to add to the post stay the eff out. No one needs someone to post about someones elses post not being technical or "helpful" when your post was no help either.
k thanx bye
09-06-2010, 06:28 PM
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yeah however I guarantee I have more technical to post than you ever will seeing this is what I do evryday. It is hard for a sponsor and customer to get to the bottom of things when you have nut swingers trolling posts. like you!
09-07-2010, 11:53 AM
#19
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
It reads how much air is going into the engine and uses that and other sensors to calculate engine load.
Calculated engine load references the force motor current table which raises and lowers line pressure.
It's not very likely that the MAF is going to effect only one gear.
Especially with the inherent problems of the 4L60E's 2-3 shift strategy.
Calculated engine load references the force motor current table which raises and lowers line pressure.
It's not very likely that the MAF is going to effect only one gear.
Especially with the inherent problems of the 4L60E's 2-3 shift strategy.
Performabuilt,
Any other thoughts on this one?
