Joe Overton

for those that want a lil info on gen7 for the ls1 this article may answer some of your questions

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0404pon_dfi/

Godspeed

That's good news.

Bink

Thanks! Excellent article.

Would this be a good solution for maximizing the tuning of "big cams"...+240*?? Will it piggyback on a Y-Body with fly-by-wire etc.?? TIA.
joel

ChrisB

Article is kinda wierd - for instance:

So according to the article the Gen 6 *doesn't* use values such as "injector size", "ve", number of cylinders, IAT, and desired a/f ratio? I really don't belive that . But they make a point of saying that the gen six *only* has 2 degrees of freedom, while gen 7 has 7, and list those as specific examples.... And they don't list rpm as an input - very strange.

Don't get me wrong - I finally had the opportunity to tune a Gen7 dfi setup and the software *is* very nice - other than the original wideband issue I haven't heard of any problems with it - I think it is the nicest generally available aftermarket efi setup out there.

But just pointing out I disagree with some of what was said in the article

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

Chris

I think they are comparing it to the stock PCM.

Joe O., is there a harness that has to be replaced or does it plug in using the stock harness?

ChrisB

No, they were definitely referring to the Gen 6.0 system.





The stock system is arguably more advanced than the Gen 7.0 system - for the application it was developed for. It is no where near as configurable - but then the Gen 7.0 doesn't have to meet the same mileage, emissions, etc. requirements. But in regards to the comparison, see the below quote - they were definitely hating on the Gen 6.0 system - which right now is probably the best bang for the buck out there as you can pick them up so cheap. Gen 7.0 is better (than gen6) - but then you can always get something better for more $$$.


Joe O: Are there any plans to add MAF input capability to the system at any point - currentl MoTeC and AEM are the only units I have seen using this, and I have never had the opportunity to try it out on either. Even if you just used it to quickly measure/map out the VE's and pulled it off it would be a great time saver - and there aren't many reason's you couldn't run around with one all the time. With more and more street cars going aftermarket efi I would think this could be a nice consideration?

Joe Overton

Its a stand alone harness, theres is a splice in harness available but have yet to see if everything functions properly...supposedly you can integrate the fly by witre with the splice in..The c5r vette I did I used a stand alone fabbed a new pedal mount and used a lokar pedal... also utilized a accufab TB ..

Joe Overton

Chris having tuned both setups and ran both on my personal car..the gen6 is basically user entry..in short the puter is dumb ..you have to manually build fuel maps and all other variables of enrichment..it doesnt take in consideration anything except in the startup menu which is far far from even close..the only variables it ask for are hp,how may cylinders,injector size ,rpm range and fuel pressure for a start up base map thats it nothing else and as i already mentioned its far from accurate and most cases barely will start the car if it does at all.... everything user entered is via pulse width it does reference rpm and map for fueling strategy. the system is not for the faint at heart and not anybody can go in a tune it successfully without some experience or without knowing what a engine wants and familiar with the system itself ....another problem with the gen 6 is the slow processor it has..it doesnt react as fast as it should ..I know when I ran it on my car I had to go in and add fuel where normally it wouldnt be needed if the puter was fast enough and it makes it very very tricky on large cam users. who only use a very small portion of the fuel map, and the transitional fueling from off idle takes lots of trial and error...I'm not downing the gen 6 for the money it will do the job, but it is a relic in comparison to whats available with the gen7 ..I'm just pointing out its low points,..It can be tuned it just takes alot of time to do it right, even for a very experienced tuner and I for one wouldnt reccomend it for someone not familiar or not experienced in tuning from scratch if you will...which basically you have to do with the gen6
As for integrating the maf there is some talk of that, but have no details to give on that issue at the time..but I do know its something being looked into and maybe it will be a option ..

Joe Overton

Chris a side note I done a cam heads ls1 car two months ago thats a daily driver ..And I'm not kidding when i say this, it drives better than it did off the show room floor.. To this day I havnt heard anything but praise on that system from that gentleman... So i'd say it can be driven around on everyday with no downfalls longs tuning is done thoroughly...

ChrisB

Joe - no disagreement, the gen7 is definitely a better system, but even you yourself just mentioned it takes into account cylinders number, injector size, etc. - which according to the article it doesn't. That was my only point there - that the article had some pretty strange "facts".

I personally have never seen a aftermarket efi setup that drives as well as the newer generation computers, esp. with relation to mileage and emissions - but I will submit that at least on the drivability, etc. it would be possible to get there *with* a great tuner. I still don't think even with Gen7 it is going to happen unless someone has a ton of experience with it previously though - but then that would just be an argument to pick a good tuner.

Yep, the gen6 stuff definitely isn't as nice, etc. - but realistically price is quite often an issue, and when you can buy a complete gen6 setup for about the same price a lt1edit, well it is something to consider. It just depends on your application and budget - I just thought they were overly harsh on the system in the article.

BOO HOO BRIAN

iTrader: (-10)

Chris...

i have a Gen 7 system on my Grand National and i can tell you it does take into account number of cylinders, firing order, ignition system type, cubic inches, cam data, runner lenth, injector size, valve size, if the heads are ported, what exuast system you have , ect.......

As for the ls1, the only reason to splice into the stock computer and harness is for a couple of reasons. The ip cluster has to be driven from the pcm. if non stock , ie autometer , gages are being used the stock pcm can be pitched. Also if for some reason you want to keep the 4l60e or air bags, or abs, the stock computer needs to be left in place. At that point the pcm becomes nothing more than a body control module. If this is a max effort car with say a th400 and some autometer gages, the stock pcm can be pitched.

I can tell you from personnal experiance, stay AWAY from the gen 6 system. It was great for its day , but that day is long gone . The main problem with a gen 6 on a boosted application is the non altitude/air density correcting fuel and spark tables. If a gen 6 car is tuned on a 90 deg day and you go north and you race it in say 60 degree weather , BOOM. The computing and the user friendly menus are so diffrent from the gen 6 to the gen 7, its like comparing a obd1 computer to an obd2.

The stock computer is a good piece, but once the 600-700 hp level is attained, the support hardware, ( ie injector piggy back driver, twin maf converter , ect) if not made by your own two hands, now becomes more expensive than the gen 7 system is.

Again, drivabilty is all in the hand on the tuner. Im not going to lie, even the best tuner will have to spend a chuck of time for cold start tables, throttle following, and part throttle tuning. No way around it.

The Gen 7 is like any other part we buy : am i at that level to justify the purchase.

Joe Overton

Chris I think your conflicting what I was sayin with what the gen6 ask for in the global configuration for start table.. yes it ask for those items but it really doesnt account for those things its only to scale a base matrix to work off of ... all the tables gen 6 generates are preset tables already in the gen6 memory..it doesnt take data and actually use it to generate a fuel map... AS I said before its not a smart computer where it interprits information and utilizes it to get what ideally would be close...

fuel pressue change or injector change on a gen6 is roll the dice and hope you nail a good % of decrease to get the map close but you have to retune it all over gain..Unlike gen7 where you go in and lets say you change fuel pressure from 50 psi to 60 psi and the ecm actually adjust the table relatively almost dead on for you as with injector change..only thing gen7 would need is fine fine tuning..gen 6 would need total user entered recalibration..

Gen 6 isnt all that bad I ran 10.0 n/a in open loop with it 2 years ago and year before that I was driving it everyday open loop so i had tons of time in tuning ..so as I said it can do the job..But what took me every day i went to the track and everytime i went for a drive the lap top was in the car just about for a year to get it right,hell I was even scared to switch cause i had what i thought was the car running optimal as possible..what took all that time with the gen6 took me one week with the gen7 2nd week I had it to the point i didnt even open the lap top at the track ...Gen7 to me is cake after having to actaully build fuel maps from scratch...and anyone out there running a system close to the gen6 would be jumpin up and down at how much easier this is... experienced tuner yes possibly get the gen6 as a option if budget is tight....inexperienced save your money buy a gen7,,theres alot of EMICs out there with there new proposed schooling program , but only the old timers out there that can tune a gen6 ... its not like edit where your working off a already working program...its harder than one would think..
best way to describe it is atari to x-box ..lol

ChrisB

Brian - what I was saying (and all that I was saying - I think people are reading alot more into my comments) is that the article made some incorrect assertions about gen 6. According to the article it doesn't even take into account number of cylinders - spark would be interesting to say the least if you don't know that

Definitely the table generation for Gen7 is nice, but I would still echo the point that how it turns out is going to be in the hands of the tuner. I have "played" with plenty of aftermarket systems, and my advice would still buy to buy the efi system *from* whoever you are going to have tune it, and make sure they have experience with a setup like yours.

But anyway, I still had better luck with Gen 6 than the article makes it sound (like it is capable of) - yep, it was a pain to get setup, and you don't want to be making swaps on the fly, but tuning for a static configuration it was not bad at all. And I still think for the price used systems are going for now it's a killer deal - you can buy one for less than a good tuner would charge to tune it anyway.

Basically yeah, I think Gen7 is better, but since I would suggest that you have whomever you buy your system from tune your car (or vice versa - buy from your tuner) I think it's going to be the tuner who benefits the most from it .

LS1 SPEED INC.

iTrader: (1)

We have 4 LS1 Gen7 systems on the shelf we are looking to move. If anyone is interested, email me direct.

Tom@ls1speed.com

Joe Overton

Chris you had better luck with gen6 cause you have a basic knowledge of what a engine wants and familiar with the software and tuning in general...I was saying for a beginner it isnt a wise route however...Thats basically my thoughts on this...As I said many has done well with the gen6 including myself it still does the same job..

smokinHawk

iTrader: (48)

hey what issue was this article in does anyone know?