CGriff04

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys,

To give you a quick run down of my car and my story. 01 TA has 232/236 586/587 lift 114LSA. It has a set of Trickflow 220 LS2 heads that are 59CC. Running 1.7 Harlan Sharps.

Now to my story. The heads had Patriot Gold dual springs on them. With a 7.4pushrod. Car had stock injectors at the time. Car ran well. Made 445H 398T and ran out of fuel at 6k. At that time my graph was all crazy. I suspected my push rods may be too long. Brought the car back home and made the changes. Come to find out i had broken a spring.

So after hearing about behive springs is a better way to go i had a set of Comp 918's laying around that didnt have very many miles on them. Threw those on and did push rod lenght. Ended up it showed i was too long and went with a set of 7.35's. All of sudden some valve train noise i had with that old set up is now gone. I assumed that what i did was going to help.

So i get to the day of tuning and injectors. Shop that i was at forgot to order 36lbers so they ened up giving me a new set of 60's for nothing cause they felt bad. Everything was in and made a run. I only made 418h 391t. I was thinking possibly the dyno messed up. So went back home and put it on a dyno similar to that one and made same power but this time i logged it myself.

I only have about 22 degrees of timing in the car right now and my air fuel was in the 12's so i know the air/fuel could be improved. Here are my questions:

1.Where should the timing be on this car? i heard anywhere between 24-28. And if it was moved up to that would i gain back the power i have lost.

2. Now i am hearing from both my tuner and Trickflow that the springs i put on arent heavy enough to hold the valves so basically im floating the valves and recommended i go back to the dual spring track maxes that come on the Trickflow heads.

3. Pushrod lenght. I have pictures of when we used chalk where the push rod was on the rocker and before it was a hair off a little but now its dead centered on it.

4. Injectors. Also been told my injectors being so big can make a big affect. They have been turned down and highest duty cycle i have seen is 45% at 6.

Basically trying to figure out where to start and fix this. Any help what so ever would be great in my quest of beginning changes to the car.

Thanks for all your help
Chris

Lambert695

iTrader: (17)

you can probably bump the timing up to 26-28*. Also I would have stayed with a dual spring mostly because valve float is not a good situation. According to the specs you should have been fine but i dont know.

CGriff04

iTrader: (1)

Thats what i was thinking. The specs on those springs seem fine esp since i dont have a over 600 lift cam.

bene

iTrader: (16)

From what i have read, the revised 918s which I what I got is rated for max lift of .625". My cam have .59x/.59x int/exh lift. No valve float on my dyno runs.

blsnelling

iTrader: (4)

I've heard it's not good to have injectors so big that you run that low in the duty cycle. Also, I don't believe PR length is used to correct the wipe pattern. That's done by shimming/milling.

LS1-450

iTrader: (33)

Spring design isn't only about lift capacity. The ramp rate of the cam & max RPM is as important & IMO, are more important. Trickflow has already told you to upgrade the springs. So, a spring upgrade is first.

Glad to hear that the valve wipe pattern has been corrected w/ new pushrods. Although it's probably not much of an issue, pushrod strength/wall thickness can also be an issue. That's another story & doesn't really need to be discussed here. Although, some may disagree. Pushrods are good & don't need attention.

Bump WOT timing to 26* & log knock. If not WOT knock, leave it there. IMO, w/ 59cc chambers, it's doubtful that you can use any more & not really necessary.

Injector size may or may not be an issue; yet to be seen. Get the A/F ratio to 12.8-13.0 & should be OK. I don't think that in your case the injector size is an issue. It would only be an issue if you can't lean her out. So, Change the springs, bump the timing & get the A/F ratio up to 12.8-13.0. If power loss remains (doubtful), look into injectors.

EDIT: Just saw that it's CGriff04 posting. What's up...The springs, timing & leaner WOT A/F ratio should fix it.

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

When was the first dyno and when was the second (date) and when did you buy fuel for each?

CGriff04

iTrader: (1)

First dyno was end of last month. I just went down last weekend and got fuel at same place I did when I went down first time

Ethan[ws6]

iTrader: (13)

Patriot springs break quick. I hear they are junk, but I would still get a dual spring. The behive springs are good but sometimes not good enough. I would look into some PRC springs or equivelant.

CGriff04

iTrader: (1)

Well like I said they recommended the springs that were on those heads I just want to make sure before I go spend 150 and that don't solve my issue

180ls1

iTrader: (4)

what rpm was the 418 made at?

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

Here is why I asked. In the fall in the northern part of the country a switch is made from summer to winter blend fuel. This switch involves adding more Butane to the fuel, and in the process, it lowers the BTU content. Bottom line is if you did a dyno on your car with summer fuel and then another with the winter blend, your power will be down around 5%. That being the case, 445 X 0.95 = 422 and that may be all the difference right there. So before spending a bunch of cash for nothing, figure out if the fuel was different.

Are the dyno curves completely different or is one similar but lower?

CGriff04

iTrader: (1)

Interesting fuel concept. Never heard if that before. As far as the curves the one was not smooth at all due to that broken spring. The the after is better just not as much power. I will have to get the graph to see where that power was made from

LS1-450

iTrader: (33)

Lose the beehives. Guys using them are either clueless as to what's happening to their valves, have close to stock cams or are very aware of valvetrain harmonics & geometry. The latter, whom are using them successfully, have mild ramp rate cams, hollow stem valves & medium lifts.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Look into the Lunati Duals. Very cost friendly Also I would ditch those 60 pound injectors quick. You will gain nothing by having them and only suffer from possible fueling and idle problems.

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

If the fuel is an issue the two curves will looke similar with one lower. If your original dyno had a broken spring then it will be hard to tell. If the valve train is an issue you should see it on the dyno curve with a sudden dip.

Also, what did you mean by your statement in the first post? If you mean wipe, pushrod length will have no effect on wipe.

"3. Pushrod lenght. I have pictures of when we used chalk where the push rod was on the rocker and before it was a hair off a little but now its dead centered on it."

CGriff04

iTrader: (1)

I am honestly thinking of throwing the 7.4 push rods and the new set of dual springs back in and see what happens.

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

Doyou have the dyno curve? Springs will show up in the curve. You may also want to PM Brian Tooley and get his input on the valve springs. As for the pushrod, I would measure it.

LS1-450

iTrader: (33)

Griff, although we are all trying to do what we can to help you here. The help you need is close to you. Get Joe or Corey to verify your pushrod length w/ an adjustable checker, do whatever w/ the springs (from my experience is to go back to duals) & be done w/ that side of it. Note: the original manufacturers' dual spring does not have to be used if you aren't comfortable w/ it. There are many other reputable dual spring replacements that can be used. Further, dual springs by themselves can be the cause of valvetrain noise. The noise isn't necessarily caused by improper length pushrods.

Don't forget to get the timing up to near 26* w/ no knock.

CGriff04

iTrader: (1)

I have the help from someone. I have pictures of where the push rod sits on the rocker.

So dual springs can cause valvetrain noise? Never knew that. It seemed like my old set up was what to have except for the broken spring.