Generation IV External Engine - AFR 230 V2 - worth the upgrade for my 402?

Currently have Pat Stage IIIs on forged aluminum 402 with Vararaam, JF ported TB, VR ported 90mm fast, with TSP MS3 cam (237/242,.603/.609 113), FLP LTs thru Bassani catback. Here is dyno:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/waddisme/Z06Dyno2008Nov.jpg

I am guessing it will cost about $3500 for AFR 230 v2 heads, rockers and install. How much difference in rwhp/rwtq can I expect and is it enough to justify the $$s. From the other threads, most 402s do much better than mine anyway. Guesses?

Responded on CF

That cam in an LS3 would be 500 RWHP. Either your heads are holding you back or the tune is off or you have some other issue. If you have ruled out the tune/mechanical issues, then those heads are the cause. There ought to be 50 HP available on a 402 with good heads and a 237 cam.

Considering who tuned it it is not the tune...

Not a LS3 motor or heads so WTF does that have to do with it. Nick will not inflate dyno #'s to make you feel good...

What is his opinion....he has built a couple 570rwhp LS2 based cars IIRC....

Seems like his guess at the hp when he first tuned it was like 490 IIRC. It doesn't matter as it is what it is. Just want to get the most out of motor. Putting the AFRs on there so I will update thread when done.

Are you going to stick with your current cam, or are you going to switch to a cam more specific to the heads?

I think it could shur use a little more cam also, something hi 240s low 250s would do much better in a stoker motor, and lots of exhaust flow, what header size do you have? 1 7/8 are a must have.

Honestly unless you have a weak hole I think you will scare 500 with those heads. I would be curious about the valve job on the Patriots. Other than #'s being a little low the graph looks good.....

Your torque curve looks really nice BTW and I would not be surprised to see it pick up 25 across the board.

Considering who tuned it it is not the tune...
I don't see where he stated who tuned it. There is a dyno graph with a shop name, doesn't say anything about who tuned it.
Not a LS3 motor or heads so WTF does that have to do with it.

A moderately cammed stock heads LS3 is less displacement and makes more HP then the OP, albeit with less low end torque. Put a set of stock LS3 heads on a 402 and even with a slightly smaller cam (e.g. 6*- 8* overlap) it makes 500 RWHP. So with his bigger cam, there is plenty of room for more power with a good aftermarket set of heads. Pretty much obvious he is going to gain from a better set of heads if other problems are ruled out.

I see you already bought the AFRs, but I would suggest a cam spec'd out by Tony Mamo to go along with the new heads too.

I think the new 230 V2 heads would wake that combination up quite a bit

And I would consider a different cam if its in the budget.....feel free to PM me for details if your interested in having me spec a custom for you

Good luck with the new combo

-Tony

^^^^^There you go, "Morpheus" is inviting you to take the red or blue pill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhymzx6ovfQ&feature=related

I don't see where he stated who tuned it. There is a dyno graph with a shop name, doesn't say anything about who tuned it.

I know who tunes at that shop..

A moderately cammed stock heads LS3 is less displacement and makes more HP then the OP, albeit with less low end torque. Put a set of stock LS3 heads on a 402 and even with a slightly smaller cam (e.g. 6*- 8* overlap) it makes 500 RWHP. So with his bigger cam, there is plenty of room for more power with a good aftermarket set of heads. Pretty much obvious he is going to gain from a better set of heads if other problems are ruled out.

First I am sorry if I came across wrong....:D

You really can't compare LS3 heads to a cathedral headed motor in this case because they like different cams.. My point being the LS3/L92 heads seem to like a shorter duration and shine with cams that are "moderate" in the cathedral world. Cathedrals LOVE duration and the longer the cam you can fit the more a cathedral headed motor will make. I guess the short way to say it is comparing an LS3 headed motor to a cathedral headed motor is apples and oranges. So I think a comparison to LS3 headed motor is irrelevant... Not gonna jack this thread and turn it into a cathedral/ rectangle port thread...

Still on fence about cam. I will talk to Zack tomorrow. It would be hard to deny the "pill" when offered. Got fender off yesterday, will get accusump on tomorrow and order heads and maybe cam tomorrow. I will keep thread updated as things move along. Thanks for the inputs.

First I am sorry if I came across wrong....:D
:chug:
You really can't compare LS3 heads to a cathedral headed motor in this case because they like different cams.. My point being the LS3/L92 heads seem to like a shorter duration and shine with cams that are "moderate" in the cathedral world. Cathedrals LOVE duration and the longer the cam you can fit the more a cathedral headed motor will make. I guess the short way to say it is comparing an LS3 headed motor to a cathedral headed motor is apples and oranges. So I think a comparison to LS3 headed motor is irrelevant... Not gonna jack this thread and turn it into a cathedral/ rectangle port thread...

We're on the same page. I agree that the cam choice is completely different for the LS3 heads.
My points (not articulated as well as I had hoped) were:
1) With a head swap to the inexpensive stock LS3 heads he could get to 500 rwhp.
2) With his cam, a good aftermarket head (which are better than the LS3 heads) should shine even more.

OP: Let Tony help with the cam selection. Looking forward to seeing the result. :nod:

230s are ordered. Staying with same cam. I track my car once a month, so I like the torque. Hopefully the heads will just bump the line upwards about 30 - 40 ftlbs. I will update when installed.

good luck with it all, and look forward to your new results. sent you a pm. thanks!

230s are ordered. Staying with same cam. I track my car once a month, so I like the torque. Hopefully the heads will just bump the line upwards about 30 - 40 ftlbs. I will update when installed.

You can get that and more hp if you would change your cam. You just have to tell Tony Mamo that you don't want to sacrifice low end grunt and he will provide accordingly in his cam selection for you. You might end up losing some torque by going with a bigger runner and the same cam.

:chug:

We're on the same page. I agree that the cam choice is completely different for the LS3 heads.
My points (not articulated as well as I had hoped) were:
1) With a head swap to the inexpensive stock LS3 heads he could get to 500 rwhp.
2) With his cam, a good aftermarket head (which are better than the LS3 heads) should shine even more.

OP: Let Tony help with the cam selection. Looking forward to seeing the result. :nod:


^^^^^All points are true and valid Ragtop. I think we are on the same page now:D

OP I think you will love the 230's but IMO you should go the rest of the way and let Tony spec you a cam. Since you have made this step it only makes sense to me... Hey your wallet will heal:angel:

i also have a forged 402 with patriot stage3 heads, almost same cam 236-242 112degrees with 1.85 rockers= 650 lift. with stock ls6 intake and ported t/b and 85mm maf, long tubes etc..., i also made 457rwhp and 442 tq, will be waithing to se your results, i am in the processe of inst. fast 102 int. and fast 102t/b and 100mm maf. i also was comparing dyno graph, mine at 6000rpm hp and torque drops lock a rock, at 6000 i am at 457 hp and 400tq then by the time i hit 6500 i am at 400 hp and 300 tq, that why i am tring a new intake set up, then i will see.

waddisme and 35th camaro-

what compression are you guys running?

reason i ask is i had the patriots stage III, though they were hand ported some, ported ls6 intake with a 92mm snout, NW 92mm TB, and i put down 507/484 at the wheels, and coolant was flooding cyl 8. i was running 12:1 scr though.

kept reading both of your threads, and thought i share my experience.

i am running 10.6c/r, would have went higher but at the time was going to run a smaller cam that i alredy had 224-224, the patriot heads i have are stage 3 76cc 2.08 - 1.6.

I am at 11.2/1 IIRC. May go a little higher with these heads and cam if tuner agrees.

Your DCR might be a little low with that MS3 in there if your only at 11.2:1 I think the ms3 is 237 242 at 113lsa no advance on xer lobes. I'm at 11.83:1 on my 383 with a 238 242 114 on advance, xer lobes and my DCR is 8.41:1. Depending on fuel I'd shoot for 8.4-8.5 dcr as I can run 91 if I want with no problems. Something to think about when setting up the new heads.

sorry, my heads are 72cc not 76cc.

the whole idea of the 230s and having mr mamo spec a cam is very tempting

Be it good or bad, delivery date on the 230s is Feb 21 - too long. Didn't anticipate that. Going with Trick Flows now. 1/2 dozen one way or 6 the other maybe.

Be it good or bad, delivery date on the 230s is Feb 21 - too long. Didn't anticipate that. Going with Trick Flows now. 1/2 dozen one way or 6 the other maybe.

AFRs & TRick Flows are both top notch heads. I think it will make a big difference on your 402.

Which TFS heads did you go with?

I would go with the tfs 235 if the afr's are going to take too long. Were the AFR's gonna be hand ported by Tony or out of the box?

Out of the box as far as I know.

I make 530hp 470tq on my 402ci with trick flow 235 heads a non ported fast 102mm on a stang dyno. I also in the past on my ls1 gained 40hp going from budjet ported heads to AFR heads on my car.(i would call patriot a budjet head) I made 463hp on my stock ci ls1. I feel the AFR head will really wake up your car over the patriot head. also,let mammo match you a cam to go with it. You should see over 500hp easy is your motor is in good order.

For those interested here is the results after putting on TF 225s. The AFRs were going to take too long to get. I also upgraded to Kooks 1 7/8 while they had car. First dyno run was when they got car and final was a week later. Good enough for me. Even better is I have all the intake leak and tb issues settled and tune is spot on for dd now. No stumbling, stalling, surging or bucking like a bronco. Drives like a new car. Off to VIR on the 28th so we will see what 50 extra rwhp will do.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/waddisme/z06dyno2011Febjpg.jpg

wow nice gain! Just curious, what made you go TFS 225 over the TFS 235's?

Heintz Racing made that call. Nick tunes it and they know what I do with car. I drive the crap out of it once a month for 2 hrs on the track and the rest of the time it is a dd.

For those interested here is the results after putting on TF 225s. The AFRs were going to take too long to get. I also upgraded to Kooks 1 7/8 while they had car. First dyno run was when they got car and final was a week later. Good enough for me. Even better is I have all the intake leak and tb issues settled and tune is spot on for dd now. No stumbling, stalling, surging or bucking like a bronco. Drives like a new car. Off to VIR on the 28th so we will see what 50 extra rwhp will do.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a122/waddisme/z06dyno2011Febjpg.jpg

Good choice(TF 225) and good run...... Should be killer


Bozz

wow nice gain! Just curious, what made you go TFS 225 over the TFS 235's?

Johnny wanted to keep his current cam (MS3) that he had in the car. With that being a fairly mild cam for a 402, we really didnt need the extra flow with the 235s. I feel like there was a great gain with the additional parts we installed on his car. Compression is still tame to at 11.0 to 1. He absolutely is not easy on the car, like he said, runs WOT for periods of time on the road course.

I do believe that there could be an additional 15-25 or so rwhp to be had by upping the compression and a camshaft change, but that was not what was on our plate for this swap.


Zach

That looks much better. my guess is that you are going to enjoy having pulled the trigger on this one. :)

Seem to be great results including the bigger headers
Any reason why HP & TQ don't cross at 5252?

Seem to be great results including the bigger headers
Any reason why HP & TQ don't cross at 5252?

I figured someone was going to ask that. If you look at the left and right side numbers, they are different. Somehow the force scaling on the dyno got turned off and I did not catch it until I saw Johnny post it up. First thing I noticed.

Sorry about that:bang:

Zach

I figured someone was going to ask that. If you look at the left and right side numbers, they are different. Somehow the force scaling on the dyno got turned off and I did not catch it until I saw Johnny post it up. First thing I noticed.

Sorry about that:bang:

Zach

Is it possible to re post with the scales forced & I'm also wondering how your weather affects the numbers. I'm not familiar with your part of the world.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/zdgrubb/slagle-1.jpg