View Full Version : The Green Hell (nordschleife aka the Nurnburgring)


JoshuaGrooms83
02-08-2011, 03:13 AM
Been working on my car (alot of info on the other ls1 site) and thought I might make a thread on this one.
Ive been planing to go to the Ring in april may time frame so far. If you dont know what the Ring is, its a 14 mile road course here in germany that is actually a public one way road.

So far here what ive either ordered or is already installed to help with this:

80mm throttle body
Koni sa shocks f/R (used)
UMI RR K-member
UMI tunnel brace with loop
UMI Trans Relo Mount
UMI Non adj Upper A arms
UMI Lower A arms poly/roto
UMI Adj PH rod (installed)
UMI Panhard relocation bar
UMI Adj Torque Arm (installed)
UMI Torque arm bolts (installed)
F/P LCA Relocation braket (installed)
BMR hollow sway bars 35/25
Vogtland 1.2" lowring springs (installed)
ls1 to C5 brake bracket
C5 D/S Front Rotors
Ls1 Hawks HPS Pads f&r (rears installed)
revmax 3200 TC Stage 5
B&M Trans cooler kit
Shiftglo trans temp gauge
speedinc Gauge adaptor
upperball joints
Kumho 295/35ZR17 XS
Kumho 275/40ZR17 SPT
SFI Flexplate
ARP flexplate bolts
ARP torque convert bolts
Hidden antenna
Wix Trans filter
Russel stainless steel brake lines
wheel center cap decal
Rondell 58 17" rims (9.5" fronts & 10 rims")
Poly Motor mount bushings

Pics and install will follow and then maybe a vid after i run the track. Cars a DD though so no im not gutting the car anywhere

SIK02SS
02-08-2011, 01:22 PM
You may also want to get some brake cooling ducts ran for the front, have matching tires front and rear, get a really good alignment, and a lot of seat time in the car before hand...thats a lot of mods. But I'm jealous you're going to the Ring!

JoshuaGrooms83
02-08-2011, 01:24 PM
ive actuall been looking into the brake ducting. why the same tire sizes front and rear?

SIK02SS
02-08-2011, 02:34 PM
not sizes, but same type of tire. You're showing XS's in the rear and SPT's in the front. It's not good to mix/match tires like that as every tire has different characteristics. Brake grip will be different, sidewall stiffness and subsequent roll over will be different, and most importantly traction will be different. Different sizes are fine, just get the same tyres :)

Brakemotive
02-08-2011, 03:11 PM
I would reconsider the hawk HPS pad, it will not stay together at the temps/speeds of the ring. Look at the DTC series pads for something that won't lose friction at 1200*.

JoshuaGrooms83
02-08-2011, 03:31 PM
well damn lol looks like ill have to look into another couple of tires. I came across the SPTs new for a good price and the my dad got me the XS almost the same day i bought the SPTs lol. Depending on which comes up, ill get the same wither front of rears in tire type, at least for racing.
As for the pads i already bought those awhile ago for the street. i was looking at the race compond pads.

SIK02SS
02-08-2011, 09:27 PM
I don't know anything about Hawk pads, all my experience is on Wilwood and Carbotech, both good. Carbotech pads have great bite but wear rather quickly so you won't get a lot of weekends on them, but they are very consistent

JoshuaGrooms83
02-09-2011, 01:07 AM
Hawks are pretty decent. The HPS are problay not the #1 for RR or Autocross but they do provide some good braking. Ive considerd getting the HP+ from hawks to get a more track orientated pad, but not sure yet.

DGageSS
02-11-2011, 12:19 AM
well i have no input but have fun man all of us over here in America are jealous...:drool:

JoshuaGrooms83
02-11-2011, 01:56 AM
well i have no input but have fun man all of us over here in America are jealous...:drool:

lol No need for jealousy. just get over here and run it lol

DGageSS
02-11-2011, 02:28 AM
have you seen america's unemployment rate? im hanging on to a job and not letting go. no time or extra cash for germany...so yes jealousy.

bene
02-11-2011, 02:34 AM
I'm buying a new set of rear tires on mine, not track oriented tire but high performance as I still need to drive my car to and from England/Germany. I have hawk pads in the car as well with brembo blank rotors/ATE brake fluid. I'm not looking to do fastest lap :lol: but just some fun track times.

I'll being going to Italy (EUROTRIP) in April w/ my family but also right after that trip, I'll drive my car to Germany.:drive:

JoshuaGrooms83
02-11-2011, 04:59 AM
sweet! ive actually been trying to get a bunch of guys that are here stationed in Germany that are on the ls forums and guys that hang out around here to go with me. try and make a criuse out of it too. Got about 10 pople so far that are interested.

roy
02-11-2011, 08:36 AM
Joshua
None of that stuff you got listed is really going to help you on the ring.
What is going to help you is track time and watching one or two competetent video from a ringer so that you can get the complete memorization of the track down. If you can't name the corners and know the name of the next corner coming up then it will put you at a severe disadvantage. Don't worry or feel bad when a 110 hp Golf Mk3 passes you . It is just a right of passage that comes with the ring. The Nordschleife is a fun track to drive but is very unforgiving and costly if you forget.
When you come back let us know if you got under 10mins for a BTG time.

JoshuaGrooms83
02-11-2011, 10:34 AM
Joshua
None of that stuff you got listed is really going to help you on the ring.
What is going to help you is track time and watching one or two competetent video from a ringer so that you can get the complete memorization of the track down. If you can't name the corners and know the name of the next corner coming up then it will put you at a severe disadvantage. Don't worry or feel bad when a 110 hp Golf Mk3 passes you . It is just a right of passage that comes with the ring. The Nordschleife is a fun track to drive but is very unforgiving and costly if you forget.
When you come back let us know if you got under 10mins for a BTG time.

Im not even gonna wory about time. im not trying to post a recordx time or anything. If i run a 15 lap, ill be fine with that. I just want ot get out there and say "yeah i drove on it. Maybe even race alittle." lol Ive been watching alot of youtube vids

JoshuaGrooms83
02-11-2011, 10:55 AM
Put my rear Koni sa's in today. feels amazing already. Will be doing the fronts when i they get here and when everything else is here too so i only have to go under there once. Gotta wait fot the Kmemeber to get here first. So happy i went with Konis instead. They may be slightly used, but they are WAY better then the stock 100K decarbons.

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee357/JT_Grooms/31122011033.jpg
So full soft should be ok in the rears on the street. what about Spirited road racing?

JoshuaGrooms83
02-12-2011, 04:28 AM
somthing that i came across and was wondering on someone elses thread doing a UMI front suspenstion upgrade... Do i NEED new front wheel hub? or should i? 100K on em with realitivly normal driving for the most part.

roy
02-12-2011, 07:51 AM
Put my rear Koni sa's in today. feels amazing already. Will be doing the fronts when i they get here and when everything else is here too so i only have to go under there once. Gotta wait fot the Kmemeber to get here first. So happy i went with Konis instead. They may be slightly used, but they are WAY better then the stock 100K decarbons.

So full soft should be ok in the rears on the street. what about Spirited road racing?
Tuning tips from Koni
Tuning Tips
If the car rolls on the rear outside suspension during corner exit, increase rebound damping force at the front inside. The front inside suspension affects the car mostly on corner exit. By adding rebound damping you will loosen the car up on corner exit.

If the car rolls on the front outside during corner entry, increase rebound damping on the rear inside suspension.

By adding rebound damping to the front on both sides equally, it will tighten the car some.
By adding rebound damping to the rear on both sides equally, it will loosen the car up some.

Note that the shock absorbers do not change the amount of weight transfer, only the time it takes to transfer this weight.

Only adjust enough rebound into each shock absorber to eliminate the undesirable characteristic. Adjusting too much rebound may mask a handling problem of another sort and may even be make things worse and dangerous.
.....

roy
02-12-2011, 07:52 AM
somthing that i came across and was wondering on someone elses thread doing a UMI front suspenstion upgrade... Do i NEED new front wheel hub? or should i? 100K on em with realitivly normal driving for the most part.

Is there play in your front hubs?

XxWICKEDSSxX
02-12-2011, 08:44 AM
#1. Springs/shocks
#2. Wheel hubs. Myself, along with a few other people have sheared wheel hubs right in half while racing, in my case I was on street tires!!!!
#3. Get you a good seat/harness/harness bar
#4. All ball joints, replace bad bushings
#5. It would be good to replace rear wheel seals. Ive had them leak rear end oil onto my rear brakes under racing conditions... not good.
#6. Brake pads. Simple enough... You need something serious but not to serious. It sounds like you wont be making a balls out lap but when you do get to that point consider a dedicated race pad.
#7. DOT 4 brake fluid
#8. Adjustable rear sway bar

I would try and find someone or some business that can take you for ride-alongs before you get your car out there... make sure you know the track before you get out there, and make sure you are well rested the night before, and eat and drink right the day of. You do not want to be tired or unfocused for such a demanding track.

JoshuaGrooms83
02-12-2011, 10:08 AM
#1. Springs/shocks Done
#2. Wheel hubs. Myself, along with a few other people have sheared wheel hubs right in half while racing, in my case I was on street tires!!!! ordered
#3. Get you a good seat/harness/harness bar on a daily driver?
#4. All ball joints, replace bad bushings Getting done when umi stuff is installed
#5. It would be good to replace rear wheel seals. Ive had them leak rear end oil onto my rear brakes under racing conditions... not good. look into it
#6. Brake pads. Simple enough... You need something serious but not to serious. It sounds like you wont be making a balls out lap but when you do get to that point consider a dedicated race pad. HPS for now until i get to the "balls out" mode lol
#7. DOT 4 brake fluid When i switch out the old brakes lines for SS brake lines :)
#8. Adjustable rear sway bar Done

I would try and find someone or some business that can take you for ride-alongs before you get your car out there... make sure you know the track before you get out there, and make sure you are well rested the night before, and eat and drink right the day of. You do not want to be tired or unfocused for such a demanding track.

I was looking into doing one of the ride alongs first just to get a feel for it.

XxWICKEDSSxX
02-12-2011, 07:59 PM
Yes the seat is actually the most important part of any serious racecar and still very important in a spirited street car. You need to be held in tight and low in the car to where your vision and interpretation of the track is not affected by you sliding in the seat or leaning over... It also gives you better feel of what the car is doing.

Someone else also mentioned trying to do some brake ducts, that would be very beneficial for the nurburgring for sure.

Other than that just make sure your on a fresh oil change lol. You can get by with running a full quart over the full line. I do that on race weekends no problems.

Good luck and have fun!

JoshuaGrooms83
02-13-2011, 03:57 AM
Ive always when 6 quarts in my car anyway. so half extra will be fine for race day :)
As for seats, ill have to look localy since seats will be a PAIN to ship here from the states to germany. Ive been looking for seats but dont want just any race seats since its my DD and i would like it to look good and go with the theme of my car.
I was looking into the brake ducting. Im trying to get those shields that bolt on the spindal.

bene
02-13-2011, 04:49 AM
Brake ducts are a little over kill.. C'mon there are cars there aren't made to do Nurburgring IE Vans, Cappacinos w/o any of these roadrace parts and they do fine, granted they aren't going to be fast however I doubt any of us will push the car to its limits doing corners especially on street tires.

I think the biggest hurdle for any fbody owners, newb in the ring like us is the seat time. Which will happen. I'm planning on staying there more than a few days to do some track time and sightseeing.

JoshuaGrooms83
02-13-2011, 05:44 AM
Brake ducts are a little over kill.. C'mon there are cars there aren't made to do Nurburgring IE Vans, Cappacinos w/o any of these roadrace parts and they do fine, granted they aren't going to be fast however I doubt any of us will push the car to its limits doing corners especially on street tires.

I think the biggest hurdle for any fbody owners, newb in the ring like us is the seat time. Which will happen. I'm planning on staying there more than a few days to do some track time and sightseeing.

I know, but so is all the other stuff ive stuck in my car or will be. Have you seen my UMI list :) lol Whats a little brake duct work?
The thing with the little cars is just that, they are little and thus dont eat their brakes like us big oh heavy american cars do. We were screwing around one day at work and found some army vehicle scales. me and another guy did center weight and balance on our cars. He had a 2007 audi and I had my 98 TA. My front end was almost as much as the TOTAL weight of the Audi. my car out weighted his by almost 1000lbs.

Cant wait to do a ride along to get a true feel for the track and then run it myself. Been planning this almost since i got wind that i was going to germany

bene
02-13-2011, 05:57 AM
You're right about the weight especially yours being a T/A. I drive mine spiritedly over here around bends and corners but I have to really slow down real quick because of how heavy fbodies are compare to these miniature lighter european cars that are made to do corners faster.

JoshuaGrooms83
02-13-2011, 06:16 AM
yeah, at least with UMI fornt end equipment ill lose alittle weight over the nose.

Oh and was doing a little searching for other tracks to run and found one ALOT closer to bamberg. The Hockemheinring. ITs small but alittle more modern. Cost more to run, but when i cant go to the ring, should be a good place to get some seat time in.

JoshuaGrooms83
02-13-2011, 06:56 AM
for studying ive been watching this on :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mEirkQN8o

i know i wont be doing 7.30

JoshuaGrooms83
02-14-2011, 03:33 PM
and now an LS6 intake on the way :) woohoo

ug... and EGR/AIR block offs and LS6 coolant/blockoff pipe too.

JoshuaGrooms83
02-19-2011, 03:24 PM
C5 brakes and front Russel brakes are on. Putting on the rear stainless brake lines on tomorrow. And front Koni SA's :)
Before
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee357/JT_Grooms/P1010015.jpg
After
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee357/JT_Grooms/P1010017.jpg

Stuff thats going on
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee357/JT_Grooms/P1010016.jpg

gnx7
02-19-2011, 04:54 PM
It is actually spelled Nurburgring ;).

I had the chance to do about 10 ride along laps and drove a few myself at the Ring last summer. We were in a buddies '96 BMW 328is which was stock aside from suspension, upgraded brake pads, performance street tires/wheels. The factory brakes handled its stock power just fine and the car was a ton of fun. Car owner had done about 100 laps there and was pretty familiar with it. We were doing laps just under the 10 minute range if memory serves me right. I did get a hot lap ride along in a '02 Porsche GT3 full track car which was eye opening but didn't time it. It made about 385-400hp.... but the driver knew the track well and he was FAST with a well sorted car. Then I rented a Renault Clio (200hp) front wheel drive car to take out and share with a buddy which was super fun for a few laps... but I didn't know the track well, it was raining in some areas, and I didn't want to crash the car so I took it fairly easy. We exited the track to let the rain pass... and it did. Went back out to attack some more corners.

Biggest hurdle is seat time and weather.... It is impossible to know the track well without running at least 40-50 laps where things finally start to become recognizable. I would recommend spending any spare time you have driving a simulator (Gran Turismo) with a nice quality steering wheel/pedal setup. That will be 10x more useful than watching any videos.

Be aware of what is coming in front and especially from behind. There will be accidents you have to drive past and watch out for debris, oil on the track potentially, crazy dedicated race cars flying up on you hauling ass. Always be checking your mirrors. There are all levels of drivers out there from pros/lunatics, people with money and fast cars that aren't good drivers, to people that shouldn't be out there driving Mini Vans and other shit boxes. Take it easy for many many laps until you become familiar with some sections or you will crash your car. Don't step out of your comfort zone. Following another car that similar in power/weight is a good idea as well.

Be aware of brake fade even with your upgraded parts. Quality brake fluid for sure and bleed the shit of them multiple times. Braided steel lines too...

Weather.... one part of the track can be sunny.... patchy... where the lower portion is raining/damp. If you get a dry day consider yourself lucky. Always be thinking about changing weather out there if there is a chance of rain. Do 3-4 laps and then pull off to take a break and take some mental notes.

Overfill your oil pan by 1 quart. I would run an Improved Racing oil pan baffle or an Accusump .... or both. Synthetic fluid in the trans and rear axle for sure.

Video isn't allowed..... but you sure could hide a GoPro camera somewhere..... ;) There are a lot of good areas to watch the track from and worth the small effort involved.

roy
02-19-2011, 10:22 PM
It is actually spelled Nurburgring ;).



Well if you donot have a European keyboard or use keyboard shortcuts that can put ü then it would be spelled as Nuerburgring.

Say Joshua when your ready to come out to Nürburgring, come over to Fbodyeurope and post it. I myself have been driving on it since 1987 and have a couple laps under my belt. There arealso a couple other members that hit the ring pretty regulary also. We also have some members that attack it quite regualry with their Fbodies. We also goto Hockenheimring to so don't be shy if you would like to come out there.

Also here is a link to the idea lines that is hosted on Fbodyeurope Nordschleife the ideal line (http://fbodyeurope.org/gallery/8_nordschleife.pdf). Special thanks to BMW for doing that with Sport Auto.
Edited for clarity

BenZ28
02-21-2011, 06:14 AM
Tell us when you go. Maybe I can do a nice video following your car (even if it's not allowed)... ;)

JoshuaGrooms83
02-21-2011, 07:20 AM
Tell us when you go. Maybe I can do a nice video following your car (even if it's not allowed)... ;)

No prob! Where you located? I seen somwhere where they let you take pictures and vidoe for a price I believe. Ill have to look on the website. Id love to get a Video up of me on it. And some pics.

BenZ28
02-21-2011, 09:37 AM
Mainz, a little closer to the Ring than you. I'm also at fbodyeurope.org forum. I think they rent "legal" video cameras but I've got no idea for how much €€€.

JoshuaGrooms83
02-21-2011, 10:11 AM
Oh ok. Im also on Fbodyeurope. I just joined it maybe a 4 or 5 months ago. i got a few posts but still feeling out the forum. LS1.com and LS1Tech are my favorites.

JoshuaGrooms83
05-06-2012, 12:56 PM
im back!!! IM ALIVE!!!! lol been busy working
so far the Birdy is redy for a normal run. the new 300 stall is fully broke in, the new front suspention has settled in for the most part, and the tune is somewhat ok. just gotta make sure i only put in the off post 102 ultimate fuel from Aral or Shell. i think i know why my car was acting funny after i got the PCM bac from frost. the on post fuel pumps have been containminated by super and super 10 fuel and then try to pass it of as super plus sometimes or they switch the fuel but the tank still have the crappy fuel in it.
I noticed that once i went with the fuel form off post (although super expensive) the car is like night and day. shifts are cleaner, power doesnt dump off at higher RPM AND most importantly the check engine light doesnt come on anymroe which im sure are the fueltrim issue i waas having before. I know i need a fine tuned tune after i got it back from Frost but it should not have been throwing codes as often as it did. and after some double checking and asing frost awhile back, some issues have the simplest solutions lol like better gas.

ANYWHO lol
Im planning on racewars in july and soon after that, A ring run. probably wont have my turbo system here yet so ill see what my NA setup can do and use that as my base line.
also got a guy that ordering HP tuners and agreed to help me fine tune my car and all i have to pay for is the extra credit. pretty sweet

think i might switch out my rim setup though. the BMW rims poke out the fenders just a bit nd touc the lips occasionally when i hit big dips on the autobahn. BUT i pick up some C5 17" vette rims for free that will fit jut fine. and i can just swap out the 275s on the front and 295s on the rear right on them.

Just gotta flush out the brake lines. jut put some fresh 10w30 royal purple in there for the summer time and the tranny runs royal purpler ATF. Gotta put some quality powersteering fluid in there and double check nuts and bolts.

bene
05-06-2012, 01:33 PM
I thought you went already. I'm going there in Memorial Day Weekend. I just booked myself 2 nights stay in Spangdahlem AF Inn. I just finished installing a pair of aggresive brake pads and KORE3 C6 BBK. I'll be bringing my HPTuners to tune the car before I drive it in the ring.

BenZ28
05-07-2012, 08:01 AM
Guys, let me know when you go to the Ring. It's more fun to have more people going... ;) Also please check out the threads on fbodyeurope.org about this...

bene
05-07-2012, 02:19 PM
Guys, let me know when you go to the Ring. It's more fun to have more people going... ;) Also please check out the threads on fbodyeurope.org about this...

I'll PM you. I plan running the track on Sunday.