Carbureted LSX forum - Dirt track LS

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5173/5475553044_a050951c36_b.jpg


Currently I'm running a 377 ci SBC.

Dart Little M block
Brodix aluminum heads
T&D shaft mounts
8500-9000 rpm
630 hp


I'd like to make a change to the LS engine because I'm sure the power potential and durability is much better, but I'm not totally sure the best way to go about it. The cars are 2400 lbs and use a hard 8 inch tire, so they have to be driveable when the track goes slick, but when the track is grippy you need a lot of power because the suspensions really plant the tires...

Ideas?


Here's the rules:

ARTICLE 16: ENGINE

16.1 Must be able to be used in conventional passenger car without alteration. Motor mounts may not be removed or altered. Machine work on outside of block, or on front or rear of camshaft, is not allowed.

16.2 Total “dry sump” systems are not allowed. “Wet” system must be operative.

16.3 Modification of cooling system is permitted. Radiators and oil coolers may not protrude above deck.

16.4 Any American make may be used. Rear of engine (bell housing flange) must be mounted at least seventy-two (72) inches forward from the center line of the rear axle – NO TOLERANCE.

16.5 Offset must be within two (2) inches of centerline of front cross member.

16.6 Must be a minimum of eleven (11) inches from ground to front center of crankshaft.

16.7 Steel blocks only –aluminum and/or titanium are not allowed.

16.8 Overflow tubes must be directed toward the ground and inside the frame rails.

16.9 Radiator must be mounted in front of engine.

16.10 Wiring elements must be accessible for technical inspection. Any racecar advancing spots and missing will be subject to disqualification.

16.11 Tri-Y headers are permitted, but cannot contain stainless steel.

16.12 Exhaust system and/or mufflers must be mounted in such a way as to direct spent gases away from the cockpit and away from areas of possible fuel spillage.

16.13 Mufflers may be required at track's discretion.

16.14 Roller cams are permitted.

16.15 Stud girdles and shaft rockers are permitted.



ARTICLE 10: FUEL SYSTEM

10.1 Fuel:

10.1.1 Must be automotive gasoline or alcohol only. Additives of any kind are not allowed. E85 ethanol or racing fuel is permitted. Penalty for illegal fuel is loss of points, cash and awards earned for that event.

10.1.2 May not be blended with ethers or other oxygenates, and may not be blended with aniline or its derivatives, nitro compounds or other nitro containing compounds. Oxygenated fuel is not allowed.

10.2 Electric fuel pumps are not allowed.

10.3 Carburetor:

10.3.1 One (1) two-barrel, four-barrel or Predator carburetor properly installed will be permitted.

10.3.2 Must be naturally aspirated.

10.3.3 Fuel injection is not allowed.

10.3.4 An adapter with gasket is permitted. Adapter and gasket combined may be no more than two and one-quarter (2.25) inches.


9.1 Battery:

9.1.1 Must be securely mounted and covered.

9.1.2 One (1) 12-volt or 16-volt battery is permitted.

9.1.3 Voltage converters are not allowed.

9.1.4 Positive battery posts must be covered.

9.2 Ignition:

9.2.1 Magnetos and/or crank-triggered ignitions are not allowed.

9.2.2 One (1) coil only is permitted.

9.2.3 Kill switch required within easy reach of the driver. The switch must be clearly marked “off” and “on”.

9.2.4 MSD ignition boxes shall be subject to claim, as outlined in Claim Procedures (Article 19).




How would you build this?

Idk I'd have to say that the sbc has the advantage in this arena. :engarde:

Well, I have always dreamed of seeing an LS on dirt. I grew up around it. My father, uncle, grandfather have all raced. Google my uncle (Ronnie Weedon) and check out his past.

You will probably have to check with your track or sanctioning body to see if they would allow this engine in the first place. Mainly because you are altering its original ignition placement. If it flies I would go with an LQ9, do the distributor kit and carbed intake for rectangle ports. Since this is an open wheel I would assume a Methanol or if allowed E85 carb. And then I would get the best set of heads allowed and affordable to you. If you are allowed aftermarket blocks, go with the LSX. I think Speedway has the bell housing you need to mate the trans. I dunno if you run a Brinn or something else. With the right head/cam, rotator combo you can make good power under 8000rpm and not have to do too many rebuilds. It'll be up to you to hook all the power up.

10.2 Electric fuel pumps are not allowed.


I thought I've read that mechanical fuel pumps will not work with Gen III engines, although I have no idea why or if it's even true, just seems I've seen that before.

I thought I've read that mechanical fuel pumps will not work with Gen III engines, although I have no idea why or if it's even true, just seems I've seen that before.

I wonder if he can run a belt driven pump. Thats always a possibility.

I am pretty sure i saw the distributor conversion having a spot for a mechanical pump.

750hp 346....

750hp 346....

could be done with an LSX block...

If 630 HP is competitive in your class, I would think you could build an LS to give you an advantage..wont be cheap.
above 8000 RPM you need to scrap the stock oil pump and crank trigger ignition.
Aviaid makes an external wet sump pump ( I use this one) with a modified moroso pan and an ATI road race (ASA) balancer and pump drive
Use a stock bore LS2 Iron block(4.005 bore)
Trick flow is making an L92 rectangle port head with the 12 degree LS7 valve angle to work on a 4' bore and use L92 manifolds, they flow 360 CFM+
I run the ALL Pro LS7 heads from West Coast Cylinder Heads, these need at least a 4.125 bore(LSX block)...more $$$ but they work..
Use a Callies stock stroke crank, 6.125 rods, Wiseco can produce a custom piston to acheive 13/1 or so...
Front mount distributor and belt driven water pump from GMPP.
Solid Roller valve train, I used Cam Motion, Isky lifters and Jesel rockers
Mast Motorsports hi rise CNC intake.
2" headers with 3.5 collectors..
needs 1000 cfm carb....
about 730-750 at 8500 rpm.

Dave

This ^^^^^^

I think the lsx has a significantly higher price tag than the sbc this time. And availablity

Imagine what a 5.3 can do bored to 3.905 with a stroker crank, i bet it would bust ass pretty damn well.

I think Speedway has the bell housing you need to mate the trans. I dunno if you run a Brinn or something else.

Yeah, running a Brinn transmission with the rear mount ps/fuel tandem pump. This removes the need to find a place to mount the p/s pump or fuel pump on the motor.

Example image..

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b153/HRJ/rearmount.jpg




If 630 HP is competitive in your class, I would think you could build an LS to give you an advantage..wont be cheap.
above 8000 RPM you need to scrap the stock oil pump and crank trigger ignition.
Aviaid makes an external wet sump pump ( I use this one) with a modified moroso pan and an ATI road race (ASA) balancer and pump drive
Use a stock bore LS2 Iron block(4.005 bore)
Trick flow is making an L92 rectangle port head with the 12 degree LS7 valve angle to work on a 4' bore and use L92 manifolds, they flow 360 CFM+
I run the ALL Pro LS7 heads from West Coast Cylinder Heads, these need at least a 4.125 bore(LSX block)...more $$$ but they work..
Use a Callies stock stroke crank, 6.125 rods, Wiseco can produce a custom piston to acheive 13/1 or so...
Front mount distributor and belt driven water pump from GMPP.
Solid Roller valve train, I used Cam Motion, Isky lifters and Jesel rockers
Mast Motorsports hi rise CNC intake.
2" headers with 3.5 collectors..
needs 1000 cfm carb....
about 730-750 at 8500 rpm.

Dave

Interesting info on the oil system.. I found a LS1 circle track pan from Canton (http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=11-280A). Kinda spendy, but yeah....

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm looking them over pretty hard.

I just did a 402 for this exact kind of car. Used an iron 6.0 block, GM distributor front cover, Dart 225 heads, Super Victor, 12.5:1 compression, solid roller COMP valvetrain, shaft rockers, etc. You need to get the KRC motor mounts for a CT525 ($65-70 from Speedway) to put the centerline of the motor mounts in the exact same location as a traditional SBC, and you need a crankshaft bolt pattern adapter from Maverick Performance http://www.wintersperformance.com/Maverick/ which will let you use your old drive flange and flywheel. These parts work great together and will let you drop the LS right into your chassis. What chassis is it? Just wondering. Also Schoenfeld makes a couple different sets of headers for modified chassis, about $300. Call Doug Lee at Pro-Pan for an aluminum oil pan and fabricated valve covers. The car it's going in has a KSE tandem pump like what you pictured so there's nothing on the front of the motor but the w/p pullies. We'd love to do one in a Bowtie block with a stock stroke crank for 388ci, I think it'd be excellent in a modified. Depending on your wheel base, the only issue you might run into will be the length of the front of the motor and your fan to radiator clearance.

Our engine out the door for a customer would be around $11500-12000, and that includes ignition and pullies.

What chassis is it? Just wondering.

New Skyrocket.

Great info. Thanks for sharing!

Neat to see this brought up. I drive a mod at Devil's Bowl Speedway in Mesquite, Tx, and have been thinking of going this route myself. Our current sbc's are in the 590-600rwhp range, but I know lsx's have more potential than that. Our 23* steel sbc heads are very fragile by the time we get them to the 320-330cfm area and it would be nice to go to a more solid platform with heads that are capable of a lot more flow.

Our rules have always only allowed the 23* steel heads, but for 2011 have opened up to allow aluminum as well. This got me thinking a lsx might be the ticket, especially with most competitors I know not knowing of their potential.

Sorry for the poor pic quality, but here is a shot of my weekend ride:

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac171/dlc1609/Mod/IMG_0005.jpg

especially with most competitors I know not knowing of their potential.

Yeah, that was another thought of mine. We'd definitely be getting a head start on this platform.


Nice looking ride.

Another bit of info for guys running rear mount pumps, Fletcher Made Horsepower has a billet front cover that omits the fuel pump boss that lets them move the distributor closer to the engine by 1 to 1 1/2 inches, shortening up the front of the motor to give more fan-to-radiator clearance. The billet cover is very expensive but a cast version is on the way soon. Talk to Chad at Fletcher Made, nice guy.

Ls heads have. 15* rolled valve angle. May not be allowed in the rules.

http://fletchermade.com/photos/circle/2-23/_DSC0119.jpg

Ooooooooooohhhhh. Pretty. :)

Ls heads have. 15* rolled valve angle. May not be allowed in the rules.

They don't care in my series. Just have to add weight if not running a steel head or SPEC head.

Or we can run the CT525 motor.

Bump for those who are interested.......

Updates?

The CT525 has been doing very well in the super latemodels from what I have been reading. I run a Big block modified here in new york and this year the 525 is anothe engine option that we can choose to run. We had one on the dyno the other day and with a nice set of tri-y headers, msd lsx ignition system and a jones pulley setup with a belt driven fuel pump/power steering pump combo the CT525 made just over 600 horsepower on the dyno. Not bad considering gm says that it is 550 horse from the factory. Depending on what kind of weight break you might get by running the 525 it might be competitive. Im interseted to see what they do here when it finally gets warm enough so we can race!!!

http://www.dougsdirtdiary.com/gallery/photos/medium/00117585/Motorsports%20Expo%20set%20up%202011%20(15).jpg

Depending on what kind of weight break you might get by running the 525 it might be competitive.

200 lbs weight break with the CT525. That, and you get to use the 8" spoiler that the SPEC head and steel head/flat tappet guys get. Oh yeah, and the CT525 is the only engine that requires a specific RPM limit: 7500rpm.

Huuhh!
That ct motor sounds strong and underrated:secret2:

Huuhh!
That ct motor sounds strong and underrated:secret2:

It really sounds great except for the chip rule. There's more reasons than acceleration to warrant stuffing a ton of gear in a Modified.

Check on wegnermotorsport.com Nice Ls2 Carb runs +600 hp..

I remmy, someone here around Newport,TN had race on asphalt track using ls motor.
I not sure he still drive.

HRJ: what kind of rpm are you turning your current engine?

HRJ: what kind of rpm are you turning your current engine?

8500-9000 rpm

I play on goggle about CTS 525, it Looks nice. Cost ~10K WOW
http://www.onedirt.com/news/successful-weekend-for-gm-performance-ct525-spec-engines/

We plan on having our 402 on the track in a couple of weeks. The car it's going in is a brand new chassis with some different suspension configs that the driver is trying out. Starting the season with the old proven motor to get the car sorted out, then the LS goes in and hopefully kicks a lot of ass. Updates in a few weeks, USMTS is coming to town in late April, wanting to have the LS in for that show.

Im not making 750, but mine is basic, stock crank, 3.622 lightened balanced, 4.005" bore-6.125" rod, 11.9:1, 248-254-106 (306-302) hydro roller morel lifters stock L92s ported GMPP, 4150 4 barrel carb, no dyno time yet, 26 deg timing 12.8:1 afr spins up to 8200rpm very rapidly and tonnes of low end. This cam works. My carb is a little small (purposely for better acceleration rates) and 1 3/4" headers. I am going to 1 7/8" APC and Pro Systems 4150.

The CT525 has been doing very well in the super latemodels from what I have been reading. I run a Big block modified here in new york and this year the 525 is anothe engine option that we can choose to run. We had one on the dyno the other day and with a nice set of tri-y headers, msd lsx ignition system and a jones pulley setup with a belt driven fuel pump/power steering pump combo the CT525 made just over 600 horsepower on the dyno. Not bad considering gm says that it is 550 horse from the factory. Depending on what kind of weight break you might get by running the 525 it might be competitive. Im interseted to see what they do here when it finally gets warm enough so we can race!!!

http://www.dougsdirtdiary.com/gallery/photos/medium/00117585/Motorsports%20Expo%20set%20up%202011%20(15).jpg

What carb on that one mate? And whats the specs of the CT 525. My engine combo works well, I think it may make more on the dyno with bigger carb and headers but not sure if it would benefit the car as its heavy.

The engine makes 534 from GMPP I guess different dynos/atmo conditions, is limited a lot by camshaft aswell, Has a lot of potential!

Updates in a few weeks, USMTS is coming to town in late April, wanting to have the LS in for that show.

Oklahoma, eh? Who's the driver so I can pay attention?

Oklahoma, eh? Who's the driver so I can pay attention?

#33 Lonnie Robins at Tri-State Speedway in Pocola, Oklahoma, just across the state line from Ft. Smith, Arkansas. He's about a 6 or 7 time track champ, plus he builds his own cars, Knows his way around pretty well. We needed someone like him to partner up with our new LS to make it look good so we can sell a few.

Cool. I'll see if I can make it over and check the car out.

Interesting developments may be taking place soon. The LS might not be going in a modified after all, but a Rayburn late model just might be headed our way to play with. If all the cards play out right I'll be leaving next Saturday to pick up the Rayburn. Stay tuned!!

Update on the CT525. There were 2 of them racing around here at fulton speedway which is a 3/8 mile banked track that we race at every saturday. They had them tuned right up and were turning them 7600 rpm and ended up blowing them both up. First one had a nice sight hole in the oilpan from where the rods made there way out. They figured that was to many rpm and now they are only turning it 7000 rpm and last saturday night the CT525 actually beat a full field of 800+ hp big blocks. Our conventional big blocks have to weigh a minimum of 2500 pounds and the 525's were allowed to run at 2200 pounds. The guy running it started on the pole and never looked back!!!

i dont dirt race,but surfing around the forum, i looked in on this thread and saw that someone wanted the specs on the ct525. i almost bought this engine for my 72 camaro street car. the ct525 is nothing more than an LS3 with a gm asa cam and a carb style single plane intake. its the same engine as the gm 376/515. the only difference is the ct525 has no warranty because gm dubs it a "race only" engine. after doing some research, i bought in LS3 crate engine and picked my cam and intake to suit my driving situation. after selling the factory cam and intake, i saved about a hundred dollars off what a ct525 would cost. for intake , i went with the vic jr, for cam i went with comp cams LSR 269. just cranked it this week but the car isnt ready to drive yet. still have interior and paint to go. thing revs quick and has a mild but great sound at idle.anyway just thought id give u an other option on the ct525 and yes 7500rpms is way too high for a stock LS3 bottom end. good luck,David