Chevrolet Performance LSX Challenge Series and LSX Shootout - who is running in the ALL Motor Class?




stripes1987
03-02-2011, 12:24 PM
ill be there and ready to go for a change instead of actually testing at the event and not doing anything worth a crap. im heading to madman a week from tomorrow and than going to the track with him friday to get all the suspension dialed in. i have two other buddies that will be running in the all motor class, one of them is the same monte carol with the 398ci ls engine. and than my buddy gary just finished his car and will be joining us. its a 4th gen 02 ss with a 440 lsx that made 925fwhp. and will be going to madman within the next week or so to get his suspension all dialed in. hopfully it will be a good turn out.


SlickVert
03-02-2011, 07:24 PM
Car's not going to be ready. I'm shooting to have it ready for Atlanta.
I will come to watch. Glad to see more NA cars racing.

5.3LJimmy
03-03-2011, 08:56 AM
ill be there and ready to go for a change instead of actually testing at the event and not doing anything worth a crap. im heading to madman a week from tomorrow and than going to the track with him friday to get all the suspension dialed in. i have two other buddies that will be running in the all motor class, one of them is the same monte carol with the 398ci ls engine. and than my buddy gary just finished his car and will be joining us. its a 4th gen 02 ss with a 440 lsx that made 925fwhp. and will be going to madman within the next week or so to get his suspension all dialed in. hopfully it will be a good turn out.

If you don't mind post up when you are going and if it's State Capital or No Problem Raceway that you will be testing at. If you and Madman test at No Problem I might come spectate!


GIZMO
03-03-2011, 11:35 AM
I will be picking my motor up tonight, so hopefully, I will make it.

stripes1987
03-03-2011, 09:58 PM
If you don't mind post up when you are going and if it's State Capital or No Problem Raceway that you will be testing at. If you and Madman test at No Problem I might come spectate!


we will be at no problem a week from tomorrow or tomorrow being friday.

stripes1987
03-03-2011, 10:35 PM
I will be picking my motor up tonight, so hopefully, I will make it.


what is the setup?

Malacoda
03-13-2011, 09:08 PM
I saw an All Motor engine make 1050 on the dyno today that will be at the Bradenton race. :D

BES Stroked Nova
03-15-2011, 11:55 AM
I saw an All Motor engine make 1050 on the dyno today that will be at the Bradenton race. :D

heard the same thing last year and I never seen it?

DBN
03-15-2011, 06:14 PM
I saw an All Motor engine make 1050 on the dyno today that will be at the Bradenton race. :D

Whose engine is that? What is the size and combo?

Malacoda
03-15-2011, 09:20 PM
I can't just give it away now can I?

Ok, two hints:

1. It will have an ugly manifold on it.

2. It will have an even uglier yet hood.

Brian @ KYTP
03-15-2011, 11:51 PM
Ugly is in the eye of the beholder, one man's pleasure is another man's misery!

DBN
03-16-2011, 07:12 AM
I can't just give it away now can I?

Ok, two hints:

1. It will have an ugly manifold on it.

2. It will have an even uglier yet hood.

I guess that I will have to wait until after the weekend to find out, huh?

stripes1987
03-16-2011, 12:59 PM
I can't just give it away now can I?

Ok, two hints:

1. It will have an ugly manifold on it.

2. It will have an even uglier yet hood.


i may have a very good idea who you are talking about and for all of you that dont know what he is referring to about the ugly manifold someone on yellowbullet started dogging on becks manifolds and saying they are ugly.

Brian @ KYTP
03-16-2011, 09:59 PM
DANG...I envy Beck manifolds. Most of us would LOVE to have a motor needing a manifold like that on top of their LS1 platform :) Good luck to you guys in all motor...each year you inch away at the spread between Outlaw Radial and the All-Motor cars.

I remember teching Colonel Stephen Sanders 422 MTI Camaro at the first North vs. South race at Beech Bend YEARS ago. Car was IMPRESSIVE back then. It was running 9.8's and now look at how the envelope has evolved into what the All Motor cars run now !!!!!

DBN
03-20-2011, 01:36 PM
I can't just give it away now can I?

Ok, two hints:

1. It will have an ugly manifold on it.

2. It will have an even uglier yet hood.

I guess you are talking about the orange camaro from SAM? They are running real well this weekend in the heat.

DBN
03-20-2011, 03:57 PM
Massingill won in the SAM car over Woods/Lashley.

Pro Stock John
03-20-2011, 04:16 PM
Congrats Jud!

BLNLS1/RX7
03-20-2011, 04:39 PM
Not a big suprise there.

Malacoda
03-20-2011, 04:55 PM
not a big suprise there.


+1....

Anonymous
03-20-2011, 05:02 PM
not a big suprise there.

+2...

Codefive
03-20-2011, 07:17 PM
wow ... shocker ... never saw that comin. pa-leeese ... The guy had the field covered by a 1/2 second the last two years and they gave him a bigger tire and a 400# weight break. I'm sure this will be good for future car count. NOT. Hmmmmm .... it was hard enough getting more than 4 cars to show up the last two years. Now the class drops almost a second (on average, do the math) Somebody tell me again how this will help car count? Now everyone needs a Liberty ... that just raised the price of admission another $15K. Nice!

DBN
03-21-2011, 07:36 AM
wow ... shocker ... never saw that comin. pa-leeese ... The guy had the field covered by a 1/2 second the last two years and they gave him a bigger tire and a 400# weight break. I'm sure this will be good for future car count. NOT. Hmmmmm .... it was hard enough getting more than 4 cars to show up the last two years. Now the class drops almost a second (on average, do the math) Somebody tell me again how this will help car count? Now everyone needs a Liberty ... that just raised the price of admission another $15K. Nice!

I hear ya and agree 100%.

Malacoda
03-21-2011, 11:08 AM
There will be more cars at the Atlanta race.

If had to bet, I think Jud would have rather had an auto this weekend. They're easier to get down the track, and he had problems getting the clutch dialed in.

Clutches are a lot of work, and you have to add weight.

BigBronco
03-21-2011, 02:02 PM
Jud gets an auto when someone cuts off his leg. The motor did not make 1050 btw. Lol, was lower. Saw the dyno graph as they left for Bradenton.

BigBronco
03-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Congrats to judson and Bobby for running their asses off!

vetteboy2k
03-21-2011, 03:00 PM
There will be more cars at the Atlanta race.

If had to bet, I think Jud would have rather had an auto this weekend. They're easier to get down the track, and he had problems getting the clutch dialed in.

Clutches are a lot of work, and you have to add weight.

Yeah but it's rewarding when you get it right for that track.

I can see adding weight for clutchless trans but for a stock trans it's really an unfair disadvantage (125lbs).

vetteboy2k
03-21-2011, 03:01 PM
Congrats to judson and Bobby for running their asses off!

..and David L. too. Fastest auto ever, new combo kicked azz!

White Shadow
03-21-2011, 03:12 PM
wow ... shocker ... never saw that comin. pa-leeese ... The guy had the field covered by a 1/2 second the last two years and they gave him a bigger tire and a 400# weight break. I'm sure this will be good for future car count. NOT. Hmmmmm .... it was hard enough getting more than 4 cars to show up the last two years. Now the class drops almost a second (on average, do the math) Somebody tell me again how this will help car count? Now everyone needs a Liberty ... that just raised the price of admission another $15K. Nice!
Yeah because they should make it to where any budget build 408 can easily dominate the field.. :eyes:

Malacoda
03-21-2011, 05:20 PM
Jud gets an auto when someone cuts off his leg. The motor did not make 1050 btw. Lol, was lower. Saw the dyno graph as they left for Bradenton.


You probably didn't see all of them. It doesn't matter anyway.

What the asphalt dyno says is all that counts.

MADMAN
03-21-2011, 05:42 PM
All Jud is doing is making the REAL racers work harder. I thought we had a combo to run with Jud this race. He changed the game on me. So next race I will bring more to the table. I like the challenge.

Codefive
03-21-2011, 06:32 PM
Madman ... My concerns are that the rules are not have not created a level playing field. For the first three years the weights were too heavy. The common public concensus was they needed a 200lb diet. NOT 400! With engines in the 420 - 430ci range, now we cant get the cars light enough to take advantage of the huge diets but the guys with the big ci engines or weight bearing transmissions, make it no sweat. So in the end, the weight penalty is nill.

Also, the liberty is worth a heck of a lot more than they deduct for it. Especially in an NA application. Anyone that knows how to make power NA knows that it is made in RPM and tends to be very peaky. The best possible senario is a stick. The liberty is the best choice. There is NO WAY a liberty + 150lbs equals ANY auto out there. so if you want to go after the top, you need another $15K in your budget. Thats my point.

Please dont misunderstand me, I have no issue with Judson, He is a heck of a nice guy! Always willing to help and builds a great car with in the rules. My issues are with the rule makers. My old car 60fts very well! making it work properly has never been a problem and the engine makes good steam, maybe not 1020+ but competitive HP. If I or the current owner could swing the $15K, it would get the trans but its out of our budget. Dropping $30K+ for power is hard enough for the workin man.

And about making it work ... The 28" tire was a good equalizer. Our car ran mid 1.20 60fts w/o issue. Now they allow a larger tire. That makes it easier for the guys who dont know how to make it work for one, and secondly, The big tire doesnt fit in our car with out hacking it up so again, more money that wasnt neccesary in previous years and I feel not warranted if someone knows how to make a car work. Heck, the X275 car I tune goes well into the 1.teens on a smaller tire still, so please dont imply that I am not a REAL racer or that I cant make a car work.

Codefive
03-21-2011, 06:42 PM
Yeah because they should make it to where any budget build 408 can easily dominate the field.. :eyes:

Not at all what I'm saying and you're a moron for even posting something so rediculous as that in here.

Two years ago our car was an 8.90 car. Unfortunately I broke the block testing the week before the event. I was on here asking for help but couldnt get it together in time for the race. Jud was still faster but it was alot closer. With the new rule changes, there isnt much I can do. I cant take 400#s out of the car and I cant AFFORD a liberty. My point is its turned out to be a rich man's race. Building power is one thing, we did that, building a car that works is one thing, we got that covered too, allowing a $15K transmissions breaks the bank for some of us.

Funny how NMCA talked about dropping the class all together due to small car count. It doesnt look like much has changed. Guess we'll see were it ends up at the end of the season.

White Shadow
03-21-2011, 07:04 PM
Not at all what I'm saying and you're a moron for even posting something so rediculous as that in here.

Two years ago our car was an 8.90 car. Unfortunately I broke the block testing the week before the event. I was on here asking for help but couldnt get it together in time for the race. Jud was still faster but it was alot closer. With the new rule changes, there isnt much I can do. I cant take 400#s out of the car and I cant AFFORD a liberty. My point is its turned out to be a rich man's race. Building power is one thing, we did that, building a car that works is one thing, we got that covered too, allowing a $15K transmissions breaks the bank for some of us.

Funny how NMCA talked about dropping the class all together due to small car count. It doesnt look like much has changed. Guess we'll see were it ends up at the end of the season.I understand where you are coming from about car count but racing has always been about who has the most money ESPECIALLY when trying to make as much power as possible on motor.

Malacoda
03-21-2011, 07:22 PM
Good points Codefive.

What may work is splitting the class in two. There could be a regular class, then one up from it, call it whatever.

The faster guys will naturally want to run in the faster one, and the other cars can run in the first class until they think they're ready to move up.

The first class could have a heavier weight like you suggested, a limit on tire size, and automatics only. Leave the lighter weights and option for a clutchless transmission and bigger tires in the second class.

You can't stop guys from spending a lot of money on their car if they have it, but the guys that don't want to spend their children's college fund on racing need a place to compete too.

I think splitting the class could work out well, and get more racers motivated to come participate without making it a bracket race.

White Shadow
03-21-2011, 07:31 PM
Good points Codefive.

What may work is splitting the class in two. There could be a regular class, then one up from it, call it whatever.

The faster guys will naturally want to run in the faster one, and the other cars can run in the first class until they think they're ready to move up.

The first class could have a heavier weight like you suggested, a limit on tire size, and automatics only. Leave the lighter weights and option for a clutchless transmission and bigger tires in the second class.

You can't stop guys from spending a lot of money on their car if they have it, but the guys that don't want to spend their children's college fund on racing need a place to compete too.

I think splitting the class could work out well, and get more racers motivated to come participate without making it a bracket race.

That's something I was thinking as well.

Have a Jericho/Liberty only class and a regular Auto/6-speed only class.

MADMAN
03-21-2011, 08:06 PM
Madman ... My concerns are that the rules are not have not created a level playing field. For the first three years the weights were too heavy. The common public concensus was they needed a 200lb diet. NOT 400! With engines in the 420 - 430ci range, now we cant get the cars light enough to take advantage of the huge diets but the guys with the big ci engines or weight bearing transmissions, make it no sweat. So in the end, the weight penalty is nill.

Also, the liberty is worth a heck of a lot more than they deduct for it. Especially in an NA application. Anyone that knows how to make power NA knows that it is made in RPM and tends to be very peaky. The best possible senario is a stick. The liberty is the best choice. There is NO WAY a liberty + 150lbs equals ANY auto out there. so if you want to go after the top, you need another $15K in your budget. Thats my point.

Please dont misunderstand me, I have no issue with Judson, He is a heck of a nice guy! Always willing to help and builds a great car with in the rules. My issues are with the rule makers. My old car 60fts very well! making it work properly has never been a problem and the engine makes good steam, maybe not 1020+ but competitive HP. If I or the current owner could swing the $15K, it would get the trans but its out of our budget. Dropping $30K+ for power is hard enough for the workin man.

And about making it work ... The 28" tire was a good equalizer. Our car ran mid 1.20 60fts w/o issue. Now they allow a larger tire. That makes it easier for the guys who dont know how to make it work for one, and secondly, The big tire doesnt fit in our car with out hacking it up so again, more money that wasnt neccesary in previous years and I feel not warranted if someone knows how to make a car work. Heck, the X275 car I tune goes well into the 1.teens on a smaller tire still, so please dont imply that I am not a REAL racer or that I cant make a car work.

Why not think outside the box?? Why dont you try a different tire? There is some shit coming down the pike over here that might or might not work but I can promise I will try it. I can tell you if you know how to tune it the radial I have in mind will out run the slick and I have proved it.

WESTPORT AUTO
03-21-2011, 09:59 PM
Good points Codefive.

What may work is splitting the class in two. There could be a regular class, then one up from it, call it whatever.

The faster guys will naturally want to run in the faster one, and the other cars can run in the first class until they think they're ready to move up.

The first class could have a heavier weight like you suggested, a limit on tire size, and automatics only. Leave the lighter weights and option for a clutchless transmission and bigger tires in the second class.

You can't stop guys from spending a lot of money on their car if they have it, but the guys that don't want to spend their children's college fund on racing need a place to compete too.

I think splitting the class could work out well, and get more racers motivated to come participate without making it a bracket race.

We cant split the class up because the car count is already low and who will run the heavier weight class (2 cars)?????? we just need to level up the playing field,we all know the liberty is a $15000. advantage that most people cant afford and adding a 125 weight penalty to that is not enough to make any difference.To make a difference and equalize the field there should also be a weight break of 150lbs for all the auto cars.This would bring the field closer together,make it for better racing and bring out a higher car count.

Codefive
03-22-2011, 06:35 AM
I like the fact that people are thinking and wheels are turning. I love this class and would really like to see it grow. I dont think splitting the class is a realistic possibility nor warranted. But a few simple changes could make it more competitive IMO.

I dont see a need to change a tire when the car is working. The radial car is leaving with alot more power so its gonna have a better 60. Am I really missing something here? (honestly, I'm asking). The NA car is on the bars for about 80ft so every 60 ft on that is on the rear tires and it goes 1.2xs

One guy mentioned giving a weight break to the autos. No need really, since most of us cant take advantage of the new 400# break anyway. My bitch was in the discussions about the rules on this class last year (that ran epic lengths) the majority of people complained about heavy weights and when asked, the common number requested was 200#. So they doubled it??? At 400# it again becomes expensive to lighten a car to reach that goal if its even possible. And the equalizing penalty for a Liberty needs to be higher, plain & simple. Not to mention ... under 8.50? Now you need a new cert. Alot more bars and .... oh yah ... MORE MONEY.

My main point is that the original rules needed a little tweaking and it could have been a good, competitive class that didnt require a $100K car. But now by allowing the expensive trans and excesive light weights, one HAS to spend alot more money to run the class. I know heads up racing is expensive. They just made it more expensive when it wasnt really neccesary. With the original rules, we could have had a very tight field by now. Heck, Judson hasnt changed his combo in years, he has simply taken advantage of the rule changes (that cost money) and he is able to do.

I'd like to think that we can get into the 8.70s & maybe tickle the 60s with whats going together for the car now, but if Judson is already going 30s, I'm sure he'll get 20s out of it before long. A 1/2 a second off the pace ??? Its descuraging is all I'm saying. Will we make one of these races? probably.

Sure everyone likes to see these cars go fast. Personally ... I'd rather see a full field of cars go 9.00 rather than watch two guys run low 8s. And NO, I'm not saying it needs to be an index class, just some realistic rules reastricting the CAR, NOT the engine. It is after all called ALL MOTOR.

vetteboy2k
03-22-2011, 08:08 AM
Madman ... My concerns are that the rules are not have not created a level playing field. For the first three years the weights were too heavy. The common public concensus was they needed a 200lb diet. NOT 400! With engines in the 420 - 430ci range, now we cant get the cars light enough to take advantage of the huge diets but the guys with the big ci engines or weight bearing transmissions, make it no sweat. So in the end, the weight penalty is nill.

Also, the liberty is worth a heck of a lot more than they deduct for it. Especially in an NA application. Anyone that knows how to make power NA knows that it is made in RPM and tends to be very peaky. The best possible senario is a stick. The liberty is the best choice. There is NO WAY a liberty + 150lbs equals ANY auto out there. so if you want to go after the top, you need another $15K in your budget. Thats my point.

Please dont misunderstand me, I have no issue with Judson, He is a heck of a nice guy! Always willing to help and builds a great car with in the rules. My issues are with the rule makers. My old car 60fts very well! making it work properly has never been a problem and the engine makes good steam, maybe not 1020+ but competitive HP. If I or the current owner could swing the $15K, it would get the trans but its out of our budget. Dropping $30K+ for power is hard enough for the workin man.

And about making it work ... The 28" tire was a good equalizer. Our car ran mid 1.20 60fts w/o issue. Now they allow a larger tire. That makes it easier for the guys who dont know how to make it work for one, and secondly, The big tire doesnt fit in our car with out hacking it up so again, more money that wasnt neccesary in previous years and I feel not warranted if someone knows how to make a car work. Heck, the X275 car I tune goes well into the 1.teens on a smaller tire still, so please dont imply that I am not a REAL racer or that I cant make a car work.

You make good points. You didn't even mention IRS cars being at a huge disadvantage as well as stock manual trans. with no consideration. To just be competitive one needs to spend a giant amount of money, there's no way around it.

vetteboy2k
03-22-2011, 08:11 AM
Good points Codefive.

What may work is splitting the class in two. There could be a regular class, then one up from it, call it whatever.

The faster guys will naturally want to run in the faster one, and the other cars can run in the first class until they think they're ready to move up.

The first class could have a heavier weight like you suggested, a limit on tire size, and automatics only. Leave the lighter weights and option for a clutchless transmission and bigger tires in the second class.

You can't stop guys from spending a lot of money on their car if they have it, but the guys that don't want to spend their children's college fund on racing need a place to compete too.

I think splitting the class could work out well, and get more racers motivated to come participate without making it a bracket race.

I'd like to see one class but have the rules committee look at the specific racers in the class and level the playing field without just generic rules. I'd rather run with the big dogs and lose than win the b division. Just my opinion.

vetteboy2k
03-22-2011, 08:20 AM
I like the fact that people are thinking and wheels are turning. I love this class and would really like to see it grow. I dont think splitting the class is a realistic possibility nor warranted. But a few simple changes could make it more competitive IMO.

I dont see a need to change a tire when the car is working. The radial car is leaving with alot more power so its gonna have a better 60. Am I really missing something here? (honestly, I'm asking). The NA car is on the bars for about 80ft so every 60 ft on that is on the rear tires and it goes 1.2xs

One guy mentioned giving a weight break to the autos. No need really, since most of us cant take advantage of the new 400# break anyway. My bitch was in the discussions about the rules on this class last year (that ran epic lengths) the majority of people complained about heavy weights and when asked, the common number requested was 200#. So they doubled it??? At 400# it again becomes expensive to lighten a car to reach that goal if its even possible. And the equalizing penalty for a Liberty needs to be higher, plain & simple. Not to mention ... under 8.50? Now you need a new cert. Alot more bars and .... oh yah ... MORE MONEY.

My main point is that the original rules needed a little tweaking and it could have been a good, competitive class that didnt require a $100K car. But now by allowing the expensive trans and excesive light weights, one HAS to spend alot more money to run the class. I know heads up racing is expensive. They just made it more expensive when it wasnt really neccesary. With the original rules, we could have had a very tight field by now. Heck, Judson hasnt changed his combo in years, he has simply taken advantage of the rule changes (that cost money) and he is able to do.

I'd like to think that we can get into the 8.70s & maybe tickle the 60s with whats going together for the car now, but if Judson is already going 30s, I'm sure he'll get 20s out of it before long. A 1/2 a second off the pace ??? Its descuraging is all I'm saying. Will we make one of these races? probably.

Sure everyone likes to see these cars go fast. Personally ... I'd rather see a full field of cars go 9.00 rather than watch two guys run low 8s. And NO, I'm not saying it needs to be an index class, just some realistic rules reastricting the CAR, NOT the engine. It is after all called ALL MOTOR.

I get everything you are saying and I can't tell you how many other people feel the same way. There's no way to get our cars lighter without lexan, CF panels, aluminum tunnels. It gets out of hand.
I would love to see 10 cars in the all motor class all with a legitimate chance to win. The lsx shootout needs more cars in general.

BigBronco
03-22-2011, 08:46 AM
If NMRA Hot Street can survive, then there is no reason why this also can not continue and thrive.

End of story.

SlickVert
03-22-2011, 10:30 AM
I like the idea of a rule committee, that may help to balance out the competition.

I think that a racing type tranny like a clutchless 5 speed Liberty just need a larger weight penalty then a OEM type tranny.

I do like where the weights are now, just make a adjustment for racing type tranny.

Anti-Vnm
03-22-2011, 10:59 AM
Isn't the whole idea of the LSx series to show the capabilities of the platform? I think it's awesome what the SAM crew has done. If you don't like it, find a different class or keep working at going faster. Look at David Lazeer, he has picked up almost 1.5 seconds since his first All Motor race a few years ago. Is everyone going to bitch when LMR, Stenod, and the Ohio Boys show up for drag radial and are knocking on the door of the 6's when a 8.0 car won last weekend?
To those bitching about the Liberty, I agree that they could stand to be hit with a little more weight. Have you seen How much a Rossler 400 costs? Plus a bolt together converter? or multiple converters to tune for track/weather conditions? Not a whole lot less than the Liberty, and I know at least one car in AM has that combo. It's nature of the beast running a class like this.
I understand the rule changes "hurting" the smaller guy, but couldn't you see even 2 years ago this was the direction the class was going? They were on the verge of going faster than 8.50's, so the cage update is a mute point.
Look at NMCA Pro Stock and NMRA Hot Street. If you can't pick up close to .1 in the off season, you will be racing behind the eight ball all year. I really hope it doesn't discourage cars showing up. You can't expect to show up with a new car for a class and be competitive out of the gate. Jud has been building that car for 12 years now to get it to the point it's at. How long have you been working on yours?

SlickVert
03-22-2011, 11:54 AM
No one is trying to take anything away from the SAM team. I think it is awesome what they have done. Especially for a team of young auto mechanic. They built the car to beat for sure. Congratulations to SAM school and all involved in their car.

nmcajeff
03-22-2011, 12:07 PM
The All Motor class was designed to show who is the best of the best in the NA GM LSX world. It was never meant to be an entry level class.

DBN
03-22-2011, 12:14 PM
It is interesting to hear everyone's comments and suggestions as many are very relavant to the current situation in All Motor. The rules makers really need to decide if they TRULY want the class to grow or if they want to see what are the limits of the LS powerplant in this arena. I'm not sure that both can occur simultaneously as most guys just don't have the funds or sponsorship to compete at the current level given the rules that are in place. As someone has previously said, if you can't compete at this level then find another class. This is exactly what most racers are doing, however, if the class was re-structured in such a way to provide a more level playing field, I think that there are several racers who would step up and attempt to compete in this class. IMO the biggest deterant to a larger car count is the 15k+ investment of the liberty transmission which returns a legitamate .3-.4 in ET gain over a well prepared TH400. I would love to see 16 cars with liberty transmissions and 1100 hp engines competing in All Motor, but the reality is that there are not that many guys who can afford it. I realize that the liberty transmission must carry 125# of weight penalty but this option needs another 250# to even the playing field. The tire should be limited to a 28x10.5 as in many other pro classes. This size tire provides many options and compounds to choose from. I think that this class could attract some IRS cars if some sort of concession was available. I talked with some of the rules makers before the season began and voiced these concerns. I was told "Let's see what happens when the season starts and we can always make changes as we need to." I would like to see some changes before the two races in the fall but I am not holding my breath.

Pro Stock John
03-22-2011, 02:03 PM
Hot Street is usually dominated by 4-5 regular players right.

Lashleys went 8.3 once they swapped the trans, dropped from 8.6's or 8.7's.

How much is a liberty all told, and how much is a GM TH400/'glide with all the goodies? I'm thinking 15k vs 8k? I don't directly know.

GIZMO
03-22-2011, 03:44 PM
I hope that they don't make any drastic rule changes.

I am happy that they have addressed the weights. A true lbs/cubic inch weight break would be another improvement they could make. It would make way more sense than what they have now.

I have been begging for the 30" tire for years, so you know that I am happy with that change! :)

We planned to be at Bradenton, but had dyno problems last week and had to cancel our plans. Our Firebird will not be a front runner. The plan is to get our feet wet and to support this series. If we have fun we will build a class specific car for next year.

John is closer to reality on the transmission situation.

vetteboy2k
03-22-2011, 04:03 PM
The All Motor class was designed to show who is the best of the best in the NA GM LSX world. It was never meant to be an entry level class.

We're glad you are reading this stuff and hope you continue to hear the voice of the crowd that wants to participate in and grow the field.

The last sentence of your comment is silly. Guys are stepping up and building low 9 second and high 8 second all motor cars without making them full blown race cars and want to compete. These are by no means entry level builds.
For example David L. has accomplished something that has never been done before and he's still .3 off the top with the current rules.

I truly think the potential is there for a tremendous series, I just think the rules should be more considerate of all cars especially the guys who will be racing.

raymond mckinney
03-22-2011, 04:29 PM
Just asking but why not two classes? Something like 399 cubes and under and a 400 plus cubes class? I personally think they should allow non gm body cars also to help with the car count. What about a All Motor H/C class? That would be a 9.80-10.30's class?

ATVracr
03-22-2011, 06:20 PM
The last sentence of your comment is silly. Guys are stepping up and building low 9 second and high 8 second all motor cars without making them full blown race cars and want to compete. These are by no means entry level builds.


you will have a hard time winning races against full blown race cars with a street/race car.

vetteboy2k
03-22-2011, 06:28 PM
you will have a hard time winning races against full blown race cars with a street/race car.

I get that. But to me a high 8 second car is not entry level.

Brian @ KYTP
03-22-2011, 11:48 PM
You all have hit the nail on the head so to speak. These classes are designed to put the best of the best in the LSX arena head to head. You're completely right though, these classes are not for the faint of heart and also not for the budget friendly racer wanting to run heads up. Fact of the matter is there is not a single heads up class that is "budget friendly." No matter how you write the rules, someone will have more money to spend and push the envelope. I would LOVE to see more classes added and some street car type heads up classes. I know this would get the car count up, but you have to look at it from the NMCA's point of view, right now the car counts SUCK. The LSX world will never be what the NMRA is.

I keep hoping that if car counts increase they will add some classes to the mix and sort of get a set of classes similar to NMRA. You have to see the argument of street car versus race car as well. To me a street car is one thing, but to someone else it's a complete different definition.

In the end I would LOVE to see the car counts increase and the classes get broadened and even have more classes added, but we have to get the car counts up first. Guys if we could just get people to come, even if you're not competitive in the class, then they would be much more interested in doing this for the racers!

GrannySShifting
03-23-2011, 07:22 AM
Just asking but why not two classes? Something like 399 cubes and under and a 400 plus cubes class? I personally think they should allow non gm body cars also to help with the car count. What about a All Motor H/C class? That would be a 9.80-10.30's class?

that wouldnt do anything except make the small cube class cost more. SAM car would have a 399 and turn 600 more rpm and make the same power if Jud cared :D

raymond mckinney
03-23-2011, 08:02 AM
What about if you limted the bore size or cylinder head in a class? Thats why i think a H/C class or Cam only class would help the car count. Its something different, its got a new name for a class and the cars run 9's na, which makes it fun to watch.

BigBronco
03-23-2011, 08:34 AM
I get that. But to me a high 8 second car is not entry level.

But it IS not an entry level car to a racing sanction body.

THAT is the point.

BigBronco
03-23-2011, 08:36 AM
Hot Street is usually dominated by 4-5 regular players right.

Lashleys went 8.3 once they swapped the trans, dropped from 8.6's or 8.7's.

How much is a liberty all told, and how much is a GM TH400/'glide with all the goodies? I'm thinking 15k vs 8k? I don't directly know.

Correct John. They have good turn outs and the class is considered a PRO class....

It is dictated that for a reason and everyone that shows up knows they have to have a $50,000 engine between the frame rails turning 9,000 rpm to have a shot at making it to the finals.

Just a part of the game.


If anyone wants a slower class, go index race or move into the LSX Rumble stuff.

vetteboy2k
03-23-2011, 09:20 AM
In the end I would LOVE to see the car counts increase and the classes get broadened and even have more classes added, but we have to get the car counts up first. Guys if we could just get people to come, even if you're not competitive in the class, then they would be much more interested in doing this for the racers!

I agree and I'm going to promote and encourage everyone I can to do just that.
If the rules committee sees the effort they may be more willing to amend the rules.

5.3LJimmy
03-23-2011, 09:25 AM
that wouldnt do anything except make the small cube class cost more. SAM car would have a 399 and turn 600 more rpm and make the same power if Jud cared :D

I agree with this. I think 399 cubes plus stock engine management might get the job done though. It's tough to spin 9000 on a stock PCM. I think a 402/408 cube limit, stock pcm, and hydraulic lifter only type class would make for a 9.50-10.50ish entry level heads up category. I would run this as an underdog with my 347 just to go heads up racing.

vetteboy2k
03-23-2011, 09:27 AM
But it IS not an entry level car to a racing sanction body.

THAT is the point.

I missed your point.
I'm saying any n/a ls motored car that runs 8's is not an entry level car like Jeff alluded to. Alot of these guys are saying they can build a high 8 second car but are frustrated because the will be more than 1/2 a second too slow for the class.
Lets hope more cars show up and take their beating I guess. Maybe that's what it will take for some consideration. It does make sense that you have to participate if you want to be heard.

voneric
03-23-2011, 09:12 PM
Let's see...
First year they wouldn't let a liberty-equipped car run because the rule said no face-plated type trans. So two cars ran at weght with convertor cars, one with a jerico, one a faceplated T56. Second year, two cars show up with multiple TBs and everyone else gets a 75# break at the track. Who exactly were they trying to help (punish)? Third year the finally got weight on the stick cars--125# for a mod that one competitor says was worth FOUR TENTHS. It also cost him 17,000 dollars plus whatever he had to pay his help for making it work. This year they drop the weights so far, it now will cost thousands to make most cars hit their min.
Whatever happened to stock suspension cars with complete interiors and max effort engines?
This moving target they call a rulebook is way too fast for my wallet. I guess we can go the way some are saying and watch 4 cars battle it out,since we wouldn't want to diminish their experience by adding more competitors.

GrahamHill
03-23-2011, 09:57 PM
The problem with the weight breaks is that it is hard to make 4th gens get down and still be safe and SFI legal.

voneric
03-24-2011, 08:21 AM
The problem with the weight breaks is that it is hard to make 4th gens get down and still be safe and SFI legal.

That problem is not exclusive to 4th gens. And its not hard, it's expensive. This class needs stable rules so people can get cars together before they're uncompetitive.

GIZMO
03-24-2011, 09:05 AM
That problem is not exclusive to 4th gens. And its not hard, it's expensive. This class needs stable rules so people can get cars together before they're uncompetitive.

I agree with both points. The only thing that should be looked at over time is the weight breaks. There is not enough run data out there for an educated adjustment yet.

What this class really needs is participation. Heads-up racing is fun weather you win or lose. It is a fact that half the cars are finished after first round of every heads-up drag race. This series is a great opportunity to be part of something. It's a shame to not show just because you are afraid of how the ladder will look.

voneric
03-24-2011, 11:09 AM
If I feel that the rules are such that I could win with any combination in the rules format, I would show up and work until I could win. But let's face it-- everyone is aware of the power most of these cars are making. Break it down by cubic inch and you come up with 2.25--2.4 hp per cube. Multiply this by 20 ci and you're looking at 40-50 hp. 50# for 50 hp just isn't enough and telling people to show up and we'll see how it goes doesn't encourage me.

EHat911
03-25-2011, 02:06 PM
wow ... shocker ... never saw that comin. pa-leeese ... The guy had the field covered by a 1/2 second the last two years and they gave him a bigger tire and a 400# weight break. I'm sure this will be good for future car count. NOT. Hmmmmm .... it was hard enough getting more than 4 cars to show up the last two years. Now the class drops almost a second (on average, do the math) Somebody tell me again how this will help car count? Now everyone needs a Liberty ... that just raised the price of admission another $15K. Nice!

if u dont like that hes 1/2 sec faster then the field then build a car and do something about it and stop your complaining... and they didn't give HIM a weight break they gave the ENTIRE CLASS a weight break.. heads up racings isnt cheap so if u cant afford a liberty to keep up park u car for a year till u can afford one and come out the next year