View Full Version : All motor rule changes??????


WESTPORT AUTO
03-23-2011, 09:17 PM
just putting it out there,should there be some changes made so we can get a more competitive field and higher car count?????? weights? transmissions? tires?:D

GrahamHill
03-23-2011, 09:59 PM
Nope. Apparently the competition needs a carrot... and they have one.

DBN
03-24-2011, 07:34 AM
Nope. Apparently the competition needs a carrot... and they have one.

Not a carrot. A sponsor with deep pockets.

vetteboy2k
03-24-2011, 11:54 AM
What kindof changes would people like to see and please think of the entire class not just one car.

1) Allow e85
2) No penalty for stock manual trans
3) Consideration for IRS suspension (weight break?)
4) 28" tire max( some cars can't even fit a 28")
5) Raise the overall weight limits back up a few hundred pounds
6) 200lb penalty for clutchless?
Just some thoughts.

GIZMO
03-24-2011, 01:29 PM
1) Allow e85 - If anything there should be a spec fuel for this class. Alternative fuels (E85) don't fit this kind of racing.

2) No penalty for stock manual trans - I would be fine with this, but I think you will see a lot of broken transmissions.

3) Consideration for IRS suspension (weight break?) - This class is already to the point that an IRS is dangerous by NHRA standards.

4) 28" tire max( some cars can't even fit a 28") - The 30" tire is fine.

5) Raise the overall weight limits back up a few hundred pounds - I think that would be a dumb idea. I like the new base weight. I would like to see a true lbs/ci rule instead of the random stuff that they have now.

6) 200lb penalty for clutchless? - When the qualified field is closer and this shows itself as an issue it should be addressed.


I have added my thoughts to yours. I am guessing that you have a certain car that you were aiming your thoughts at?

spoooled
03-24-2011, 02:12 PM
Did yall actually this this would be a mid to high 8 sec class forever???????? One car has there combo figured out, the rest just need to catch up. spend the money to get the car lighter??????????? I dont have a problem with gizmos suggestions, added to the current rules.

vetteboy2k
03-24-2011, 03:10 PM
I have added my thoughts to yours. I am guessing that you have a certain car that you were aiming your thoughts at?

About the dumb idea. Some folks are saying it's hard to make weight and I agree. It could be dangerous to keep lightening to try and be competitive and that's one way to level the field but I'm cool with seeing how things play out. So, if the rules state that my car could be 2500lbs it doesn't help me because it physically can't. Plus why stock looking interior if everything else is suggesting racecar.

vetteboy2k
03-24-2011, 03:11 PM
Did yall actually this this would be a mid to high 8 sec class forever???????? One car has there combo figured out, the rest just need to catch up. spend the money to get the car lighter??????????? I dont have a problem with gizmos suggestions, added to the current rules.

Most classes seem to settle in somewhere due to the rules.

GIZMO
03-24-2011, 03:36 PM
About the dumb idea. Some folks are saying it's hard to make weight and I agree. It could be dangerous to keep lightening to try and be competitive and that's one way to level the field but I'm cool with seeing how things play out. So, if the rules state that my car could be 2500lbs it doesn't help me because it physically can't. Plus why stock looking interior if everything else is suggesting racecar.

Maybe dumb was too strong of a word.

If I can actually get my junk to run over 6000 rpm I will be at Atlanta. I have plans to run the last two races too. I know that I will not be competetive, but If the series continues into 2012 I would be up to building a class specific car. At that point the weight would be a non-issue as I would build it as light as possible regardless of what combination I run.

spoooled
03-24-2011, 03:37 PM
The SAM car will run low 20s with a little more work, surely faster in good air. its not hard to get these cars light it just takes effort, and they are safer at the lesser weight with the 25.5 or 25.2 or 25.3 cage.

Scott@GMHTP
03-24-2011, 03:51 PM
I have a what if for you...what if there was an n/a class for 9-second cars?
-T56, 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80E, 200-4R, TH400, TH350, and Powerglide were the only transmissions allowed.
-Intake manifold was limited to either factory, FAST (or other stock style), or an Edelbrock Victor Jr (with a limited carb/throttle body size)
-Canted valve and C5R heads would be prohibited, with weight breaks for factory castings
-Factory PCM
-Stock suspension only, 28" tire, weight break for IRS
-weight system would be based on cubic inch, with the base being at 2900lbs for a 346cid motor

How many people would commit to a four race series based on those rules?

Anonymous
03-24-2011, 05:23 PM
I have a what if for you...what if there was an n/a class for 9-second cars?
-T56, 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80E, 200-4R, TH400, TH350, and Powerglide were the only transmissions allowed.
-Intake manifold was limited to either factory, FAST (or other stock style), or an Edelbrock Victor Jr (with a limited carb/throttle body size)
-Canted valve and C5R heads would be prohibited, with weight breaks for factory castings
-Factory PCM
-Stock suspension only, 28" tire, weight break for IRS
-weight system would be based on cubic inch, with the base being at 2900lbs for a 346cid motor

How many people would commit to a four race series based on those rules?

I like these rules.

Any limits on the cam? Would Solid Rollers be allowed or Hyd only?

vetteboy2k
03-24-2011, 06:22 PM
Maybe dumb was too strong of a word.

If I can actually get my junk to run over 6000 rpm I will be at Atlanta. I have plans to run the last two races too. I know that I will not be competetive, but If the series continues into 2012 I would be up to building a class specific car. At that point the weight would be a non-issue as I would build it as light as possible regardless of what combination I run.

Cool. I guess in a drag race anything can happen so you have a chance.

REDGAR
03-24-2011, 06:45 PM
I have a what if for you...what if there was an n/a class for 9-second cars?
-T56, 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80E, 200-4R, TH400, TH350, and Powerglide were the only transmissions allowed.
-Intake manifold was limited to either factory, FAST (or other stock style), or an Edelbrock Victor Jr (with a limited carb/throttle body size)
-Canted valve and C5R heads would be prohibited, with weight breaks for factory castings
-Factory PCM
-Stock suspension only, 28" tire, weight break for IRS
-weight system would be based on cubic inch, with the base being at 2900lbs for a 346cid motor

How many people would commit to a four race series based on those rules?

If we stayed toward the higher side of 9 I would be in.

Z06 CU
03-24-2011, 08:07 PM
I have a what if for you...what if there was an n/a class for 9-second cars?
-T56, 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80E, 200-4R, TH400, TH350, and Powerglide were the only transmissions allowed.
-Intake manifold was limited to either factory, FAST (or other stock style), or an Edelbrock Victor Jr (with a limited carb/throttle body size)
-Canted valve and C5R heads would be prohibited, with weight breaks for factory castings
-Factory PCM
-Stock suspension only, 28" tire, weight break for IRS
-weight system would be based on cubic inch, with the base being at 2900lbs for a 346cid motor

How many people would commit to a four race series based on those rules?

If this is what you want just go run NHRA stock class. You will still spend lots of money to do that and have more rules than you can stand. Remember somebody will always go faster no matter what the rules.

WESTPORT AUTO
03-24-2011, 09:13 PM
did yall actually this this would be a mid to high 8 sec class forever???????? One car has there combo figured out, the rest just need to catch up. Spend the money to get the car lighter??????????? I dont have a problem with gizmos suggestions, added to the current rules.

its not a weight issue for everyone else,its the liberty without enough weight penalty.then lets top it off with a bigger tire so its easier to set up the clutch.not everyone has unlimited funds.

5.3LJimmy
03-24-2011, 09:34 PM
I have a what if for you...what if there was an n/a class for 9-second cars?
-T56, 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80E, 200-4R, TH400, TH350, and Powerglide were the only transmissions allowed.
-Intake manifold was limited to either factory, FAST (or other stock style), or an Edelbrock Victor Jr (with a limited carb/throttle body size)
-Canted valve and C5R heads would be prohibited, with weight breaks for factory castings
-Factory PCM
-Stock suspension only, 28" tire, weight break for IRS
-weight system would be based on cubic inch, with the base being at 2900lbs for a 346cid motor

How many people would commit to a four race series based on those rules?

I AM IN!!!
I do my best to make every race I can to run index(Though the birth of my daughter and my brother's wedding are keeping me out of the last two this year). If there was a heads up class that fit the 9.5 to 10.5 N/A cars I'd definitely run that instead. I think the stock PCM is the perfect equalizer for a slower heads up class as it prevents folks from revving the crap outta their combo(safely anyway).

GIZMO
03-25-2011, 09:42 AM
its not a weight issue for everyone else,its the liberty without enough weight penalty.

Is it really that big of an issue at the moment? (Unless you want to add 500 lbs)


then lets top it off with a bigger tire so its easier to set up the clutch.not everyone has unlimited funds.

The tires are a plus for all combinations. Even six cylinder Stock Eliminator cars run a 30" tire.

fasttagurl
03-25-2011, 01:47 PM
If we stayed toward the higher side of 9 I would be in.

I second this...

Most of us will never have $30k to build a motor like SAMs.

SlickVert
03-25-2011, 03:40 PM
What kindof changes would people like to see and please think of the entire class not just one car.

1) Allow e85
2) No penalty for stock manual trans
3) Consideration for IRS suspension (weight break?)
4) 28" tire max( some cars can't even fit a 28")
5) Raise the overall weight limits back up a few hundred pounds
6) 200lb penalty for clutchless?
Just some thoughts.

I think that the weight penalty for canted valve heads is not relevant anymore with the new GM DRX heads and others that flows as good of better then some canted.
Maybe a 100lbs penalty for all square port heads and No penalty for cathedral heads might work better.

JOHN.V
03-25-2011, 05:08 PM
Since it is an all motor no holds bar class how about allowing the Liberty with a convertor as a automatic exception with no wieght penalties?
Why restrict any automatic transmission to OEM!

Pro Stock John
03-25-2011, 10:22 PM
I second this...

Most of us will never have $50k to build a motor like SAMs.

Fixed.

High 9 with 93 spec fuel. Otherwise if you have folks running big compression, this will go low 9's real fast.

vetteboy2k
03-26-2011, 08:25 AM
I think that the weight penalty for canted valve heads is not relevant anymore with the new GM DRX heads and others that flows as good of better then some canted.
Maybe a 100lbs penalty for all square port heads and No penalty for cathedral heads might work better.

I agree cathedral is a disadvantage.

casper383
03-26-2011, 09:38 AM
I have a what if for you...what if there was an n/a class for 9-second cars?
-T56, 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80E, 200-4R, TH400, TH350, and Powerglide were the only transmissions allowed.
-Intake manifold was limited to either factory, FAST (or other stock style), or an Edelbrock Victor Jr (with a limited carb/throttle body size)
-Canted valve and C5R heads would be prohibited, with weight breaks for factory castings
-Factory PCM
-Stock suspension only, 28" tire, weight break for IRS
-weight system would be based on cubic inch, with the base being at 2900lbs for a 346cid motor

How many people would commit to a four race series based on those rules?

Most definitely, everything above sounds realistic for a lot of people

JL ws-6
03-26-2011, 02:55 PM
Here's what I see.. fwiw:

I can understand the need/desire for the class to be set up for max speed. SAM car does that.. and with their nearly unlimited resources... it's no surprise. There should be a class for that, and guys that want to go nuts with stuff...

However.. there isn't anywhere for 3/4 of the cars....

Now, limit it to a GM transmission (glide, th350, 400, 200r, 4l60/80) that's good. Limit it to x weight for x ci, that's good. Limit it to factory or cast single 4 bbl intakes, that's fine. I wouldn't limit it to stock computers... that takes anyone out of the picture that wants to run a transplant car,3rd gen, etc. I don't see any reason not to allow a guy with a carb'd motor in a 3rd gen run, or in a nova, or even a carb'd newer car like a C5, GTO, f body whatever. I would limit it to non-canted valve heads and no c5r, that makes sense as well... I'd leave the ls7 stuff in as that's available on C5 z06 cars.. and one of those that's juiced up enough could compete in this class.. don't get them bumped. To me, that would be a good move, keep it open to anything that was available from the factory, and the aftermarket derivitives of that style head. Fuel, I don't think you need to limit that... no real need there. The speeds, can be controlled with the weight vs ci, and maybe a penalty for the single plane intake vs a stock plastic, or fast style. The weights, just have to be right.

Example, a 346 car with a fast style intake, probably should be allowed to be 2800, a 408 probably needs to be a 3050lb car, A 427 car probably needs to be 3350, a 440 car is a 3525, a 481 ci motor probably should be 3600. Single plane add 25 lbs if you want, aftermarket ecm or carb add 25 lbs. Realisticially with n/a stuff the aftermarket ecm or carb isn't going to warrant any more then a 25 to 50 lb weight penalty I don't think. That's more a personal preferance thing.

A structure like that, would probably put the cars somewhat even... and within a resonable reach for most guys to do.

JL ws-6
03-26-2011, 03:02 PM
If we stayed toward the higher side of 9 I would be in.

The only problem I see with this, is that at this point it's too easy to get a car into the high 9 second range, to limit the speeds to that range you'd have to limit the motor combo's so much that even your car probably wouldn't be legel anymore.

Whatever is done, it's going to be a class that a perfect car can probably see 9.20 to 9.30.... and that's somewhat reasonable.

Aiming for a full second faster then that it probably more then one can realisticially do.. you're talking a 150K car at a MINIMUM to do that.

vetteboy2k
03-26-2011, 03:24 PM
Here's what I see.. fwiw:

I can understand the need/desire for the class to be set up for max speed. SAM car does that.. and with their nearly unlimited resources... it's no surprise. There should be a class for that, and guys that want to go nuts with stuff...

However.. there isn't anywhere for 3/4 of the cars....

Now, limit it to a GM transmission (glide, th350, 400, 200r, 4l60/80) that's good. Limit it to x weight for x ci, that's good. Limit it to factory or cast single 4 bbl intakes, that's fine. I wouldn't limit it to stock computers... that takes anyone out of the picture that wants to run a transplant car,3rd gen, etc. I don't see any reason not to allow a guy with a carb'd motor in a 3rd gen run, or in a nova, or even a carb'd newer car like a C5, GTO, f body whatever. I would limit it to non-canted valve heads and no c5r, that makes sense as well... I'd leave the ls7 stuff in as that's available on C5 z06 cars.. and one of those that's juiced up enough could compete in this class.. don't get them bumped. To me, that would be a good move, keep it open to anything that was available from the factory, and the aftermarket derivitives of that style head. Fuel, I don't think you need to limit that... no real need there. The speeds, can be controlled with the weight vs ci, and maybe a penalty for the single plane intake vs a stock plastic, or fast style. The weights, just have to be right.

Example, a 346 car with a fast style intake, probably should be allowed to be 2800, a 408 probably needs to be a 3050lb car, A 427 car probably needs to be 3350, a 440 car is a 3525, a 481 ci motor probably should be 3600. Single plane add 25 lbs if you want, aftermarket ecm or carb add 25 lbs. Realisticially with n/a stuff the aftermarket ecm or carb isn't going to warrant any more then a 25 to 50 lb weight penalty I don't think. That's more a personal preferance thing.

A structure like that, would probably put the cars somewhat even... and within a resonable reach for most guys to do.

Sounds like a good format and a nice alternative.
We have seen 9.3 with the most of the above rules a while back.

ATVracr
03-26-2011, 08:44 PM
I think that the weight penalty for canted valve heads is not relevant anymore with the new GM DRX heads and others that flows as good of better then some canted.
Maybe a 100lbs penalty for all square port heads and No penalty for cathedral heads might work better.

LOL !
I like this guy. :D

JL ws-6
03-27-2011, 07:59 AM
He's got a point. The allpro heads are in the 435+ range according to a couple people I've talked to, the GM DR head, when I talked to Steven Hodge about that when he was at GM racing, he told me those were supposed to be 430 cfm intake and about 240 on the exhuast right out of the box from GM with no additional work at all.... that same head with a little work, who knows...

The non canted stuff has come a LONG way. And with an n/a class.. honestly the detonation isn't going to lift ring lands like it does with a power adder car, so the need for the canted valve for piston strength isn't as needed. Probably can, put an inline headed motor together that would run as strong as a canted valve, or damn close.


For the purpose of a reduced budget/speed n/a class I would probably limit it to an ls7/ls3 port, even the aftermarket ones of that are fine, just keep the c5r, GM DR, and the high port allpro stuff out in an effort to try to keep things a little more budget minded.


No matter what, I can see a reduced $ level all motor class still be knocking on the 8 second barrier... or damn close to it.

fasttagurl
03-28-2011, 09:10 AM
9.90 cap - 10.50 class would be more realistic. I agree about the aftermarket computers that should be prohibited. You can get a well-built 700hp NA car to run 9's with a stock PCM. Anything more technical than that will be forced to use an aftermarket PCM, then we're back at allowing cars that run close to 8's, so What Was The Point??

Limit heads to brand names that are common, like, AFR, Mast, GM, etc. No "extreme flowing" drag racing heads.

It seems like if there WERE ever a class to benefit those of us that are NA on a budget, it would have to be very strict to level the playing field.

5.3LJimmy
03-28-2011, 10:08 AM
I wouldn't limit it to stock computers... that takes anyone out of the picture that wants to run a transplant car,3rd gen, etc. I don't see any reason not to allow a guy with a carb'd motor in a 3rd gen run, or in a nova, or even a carb'd newer car like a C5, GTO, f body whatever.

I disagree with this. I have done several swaps and they all use the stock PCM. There is no reason a third gen swap(or any swap FTM) can't run the stock PCM. It's like every other heads up class in that the rules will not fit every combo. Allowing a carbed or aftermarket engine management combo opens it up for someone to build a car that can go high eights. There is already a place for these cars in the current all motor class.

JL ws-6
03-28-2011, 10:35 AM
If you limit the weights, limit the tire size, and add weight based on the right items... I don't think you would have a problem keeping it a class that will be in the mid 9 second range.

I'll tell you right now that the stock computer won't be the limiting factor with the above rules, which is why I don't see the aftermarket computer as a deal breaker.

There's things I wouldn't allow to be done with the cars before I would worry about what kind of ignition system they are running, and I'd be looking at more limitations/weight penalty's for the low level n/a class. If you have an aftermarket ign system, put a weight penalty on it... I'd be more concerned about people spending the $ on some driveline type things that would make more of a difference to be honest.

Here's some things you could do that would limit it, and help keep it slower:

No wheelie bars.
max 28x10.5 tire, measured not off the sidewall sizing
Max 3 forward gears. eliminate anyone from doing some kid of trick gear setup in a 4 speed auto that would work out like a lenco.. believe me when I say this can and has been done.
no spindle mounted wheels
no 1 pc front ends.
stock front and rear suspension, struts o.k. if car came with them from the factory
no sheet metal intakes, cast single TB/carb intakes or factory style plastic only
must have 2 seats
No bolt together tq converters, must be sealed type
no forward facing hood scoops


Problem also, with forcing people to run the stock PCM, is that you will steer some people away that have ls motor's in older cars with carb's and whatnot... you want to make sure that this is as open as possible for as many of those cars as well. You NEED CAR COUNT to get another class of any type off the ground.... without car count it will be just like the current class, with 5 cars showing up. No good.

blue99fbody
03-28-2011, 10:44 AM
9.90 cap - 10.50 class would be more realistic. I agree about the aftermarket computers that should be prohibited. You can get a well-built 700hp NA car to run 9's with a stock PCM. Anything more technical than that will be forced to use an aftermarket PCM, then we're back at allowing cars that run close to 8's, so What Was The Point??

Limit heads to brand names that are common, like, AFR, Mast, GM, etc. No "extreme flowing" drag racing heads.

It seems like if there WERE ever a class to benefit those of us that are NA on a budget, it would have to be very strict to level the playing field.

if your gonna cap it it will be not much different than the index class so just run that.

i think there needs to be a heads up stick shift class for t56/6060 before another all motor class

JL ws-6
03-28-2011, 10:55 AM
That's not a bad idea either... just don't allow the mcloud softloc clutch. Anyone that took the time to get one of those figured out 100% will be .2 faster then they would be able to go with a regular clutch.

And if you limit that class like that, limit it to a stock pcm since they won't let you go over 8000 rpm... that will limit the power level as well for that class.

Honestly I don't think you'd get that many people to do a class like that though..... the damn tranny's break so much, and break so many driveline parts that the class would likly be won by the car that didn't try to go fast rather then the people going for it 100%... Make a 64 car field, and with qualifying and time trials, I'll say that at least 20 of the cars don't make it thru 2 pratice rounds, 3 qualifying passes and a round of racing without breaking something... smoking a clutch, something.

JL ws-6
03-28-2011, 10:57 AM
9.90 cap - 10.50 class would be more realistic. I agree about the aftermarket computers that should be prohibited. You can get a well-built 700hp NA car to run 9's with a stock PCM. Anything more technical than that will be forced to use an aftermarket PCM, then we're back at allowing cars that run close to 8's, so What Was The Point??

Limit heads to brand names that are common, like, AFR, Mast, GM, etc. No "extreme flowing" drag racing heads.

It seems like if there WERE ever a class to benefit those of us that are NA on a budget, it would have to be very strict to level the playing field.

Guy's got a point... with how far you want to limit the class back to, ya mine as well run the index classes. You can't limit a heads up deal all the way back to 10.0, hell you'd have to say factory block, rods, pistons, head castings, and rear ends to make that happen.

BES Stroked Nova
03-28-2011, 12:46 PM
That's not a bad idea either... just don't allow the mcloud softloc clutch. Anyone that took the time to get one of those figured out 100% will be .2 faster then they would be able to go with a regular clutch.

And if you limit that class like that, limit it to a stock pcm since they won't let you go over 8000 rpm... that will limit the power level as well for that class.

Honestly I don't think you'd get that many people to do a class like that though..... the damn tranny's break so much, and break so many driveline parts that the class would likly be won by the car that didn't try to go fast rather then the people going for it 100%... Make a 64 car field, and with qualifying and time trials, I'll say that at least 20 of the cars don't make it thru 2 pratice rounds, 3 qualifying passes and a round of racing without breaking something... smoking a clutch, something.

you want to limit the clutch? then go to say about breaking shit? Running that clutch will allow things to take a softer hit....

some people dont understand that there are OTHER clutches but a hard hitting single disc....

JL ws-6
03-28-2011, 01:03 PM
Problem is that clutch of all the ones out there, is the most expensive (thinking budget here), and you will go thru 2 of them to get it figured out... and that's not something the average guy can do... staying away from that will keep it more of a street car type class which is what people seem to want. That clutch, you can't even pull a car on a trailer with that thing without hurting it... that's not something the average guy will have, and will be able to deal with.

Trying to think big picture here.

BES Stroked Nova
03-28-2011, 01:22 PM
Problem is that clutch of all the ones out there, is the most expensive (thinking budget here), and you will go thru 2 of them to get it figured out... and that's not something the average guy can do... staying away from that will keep it more of a street car type class which is what people seem to want. That clutch, you can't even pull a car on a trailer with that thing without hurting it... that's not something the average guy will have, and will be able to deal with.

Trying to think big picture here.

a sof loc is far from most expensive, when I decided on a clutch for my T56 race car, it was the cheapest slipper style clutch out... there are many twin disc style slipper clutches that are 3k plus.

and I have helped several guys with a sof loc, I didnt see any issues pulling the car on a trailer with one? guy ran almost 2 season on one disc.

Guess I'll see how mine works out soon:nod:

fasttagurl
03-28-2011, 02:22 PM
You still need a high 9 to low 10 second cap because even if you run Index you've got to make it through 8+ rounds to win any money! Most NHRA and normal races have monetary rewards at least after 4 rounds!

SlickVert
03-29-2011, 07:56 AM
So far it sounds like you have eliminated all the cars that have run in this class in the past and all of us trying to get ready to run this year.
Bob

JL ws-6
03-29-2011, 09:09 AM
Tagurl, Please don't take this the wrong way but the all motor class isn't meant to be a budget thing... it's a full blown race car class, always was there's just a couple guys that are just starting to get to that point....

A more limited class, say a 16 car field I guarintee a high 9 second car won't even qualify for it. You want to limit this back to where the index classes are... and I'm sorry but that would make absolutely NO sense. There's already a place for cars at that level to go.

What we're talking about here is a place for the less extreme n/a cars to race in. Somewhere for the race car with a somewhat mild motor, or the hot street car with a somewhat extreme motor to race in.


As for the slipper clutch I know there's more expensive ones out there, I know there's a couple in the 5000 dollar range. I just think that if you allow that in, you are throwing the entire phiosphy of an additional class out the window. You guys want something that is for more of a street type car to race in... then make the rules so it's going to have cars in it that are, and can be driven all the time. Slipper clutches, won't work and last on the street. I know people that have tried it. Ya get about 1000 miles out of it, then try to go to the track again and guess what, it's done before you ever even got it figured out.

Everyone... if you want an additional class to race in you have got to look at the big picture, and stop thinking about your own car. Tagurl, I'm sorry your car isn't going to run in the bottom 9 second range, but get it there, and you'd have a car that could compete in a reduced effort n/a class. The slipper clutch thing, I know it would suck for the guys that bought them, but it's needed if you want to keep the car's in a somewhat reasonable budget level.. if you allow those, next thing you know guys are going to be running gforce 4 speed tranny's too, and now you're into a full blown race car class again.

Big picture here people. You have to think about what's going to attract the largest # of cars. As it stands now the n/a class.. is an all out effort class. There's about 10 cars in the country that I know of that are either built and running, or are almost done that are going to have a shot at that. It's like the drag radial class, there's really only about 10 cars in the country that fit the bill for that, same with the real street class... and then you have the cars that have one part on them that's not allowed in one of the classes, so they don't fit anywhere.

vetteboy2k
03-29-2011, 10:02 AM
Tagurl, Please don't take this the wrong way but the all motor class isn't meant to be a budget thing... it's a full blown race car class, always was there's just a couple guys that are just starting to get to that point....

A more limited class, say a 16 car field I guarintee a high 9 second car won't even qualify for it. You want to limit this back to where the index classes are... and I'm sorry but that would make absolutely NO sense. There's already a place for cars at that level to go.

What we're talking about here is a place for the less extreme n/a cars to race in. Somewhere for the race car with a somewhat mild motor, or the hot street car with a somewhat extreme motor to race in.


As for the slipper clutch I know there's more expensive ones out there, I know there's a couple in the 5000 dollar range. I just think that if you allow that in, you are throwing the entire phiosphy of an additional class out the window. You guys want something that is for more of a street type car to race in... then make the rules so it's going to have cars in it that are, and can be driven all the time. Slipper clutches, won't work and last on the street. I know people that have tried it. Ya get about 1000 miles out of it, then try to go to the track again and guess what, it's done before you ever even got it figured out.

Everyone... if you want an additional class to race in you have got to look at the big picture, and stop thinking about your own car. Tagurl, I'm sorry your car isn't going to run in the bottom 9 second range, but get it there, and you'd have a car that could compete in a reduced effort n/a class. The slipper clutch thing, I know it would suck for the guys that bought them, but it's needed if you want to keep the car's in a somewhat reasonable budget level.. if you allow those, next thing you know guys are going to be running gforce 4 speed tranny's too, and now you're into a full blown race car class again.

Big picture here people. You have to think about what's going to attract the largest # of cars. As it stands now the n/a class.. is an all out effort class. There's about 10 cars in the country that I know of that are either built and running, or are almost done that are going to have a shot at that. It's like the drag radial class, there's really only about 10 cars in the country that fit the bill for that, same with the real street class... and then you have the cars that have one part on them that's not allowed in one of the classes, so they don't fit anywhere.

I think it's great to discuss and put all our thoughts and opinions out there.
If a class like this was to ever come about It shouldn't be one persons ideas but a collaboration of a whole group of racers that agree on a set of rules.
Anyone who would help establish a class like this needs to listen to the racers and make concessions for all types of ls cars. It takes a special type of person to think globally, and be objective and unbiased.

Pro Stock John
03-29-2011, 10:13 AM
You have to have deep pockets and sponsorship to run a class like all motor. Look at who the top NMRA Hot Street cars have been.

I think the guys in this thread who don't feel competitive should take a serious look at Real Street, a mid to low 9 second engine would be competitive. Some of you guys might be a converter and gear swap + a kit swap away from doing something in this class.

I think any NA class that allows aftermarket transmissions is going to be dominated by whomever can throw bux at it.

fasttagurl
03-29-2011, 10:14 AM
I think it's great to discuss and put all our thoughts and opinions out there.
If a class like this was to ever come about It shouldn't be one persons ideas but a collaboration of a whole group of racers that agree on a set of rules.
Anyone who would help establish a class like this needs to listen to the racers and make concessions for all types of ls cars. It takes a special type of person to think globally, and be objective and unbiased.

I totally agree, and I'm not basing my thoughts on my car only. I fit into the rules anyway from Scott's (GMHTP) original post with the proposed rules. I just know a lot of us (Redgar, Jimmy, Pro Stock John) run or have ran a 10.0 flat or less so it would be nice to have a separate class. I understand you can't make everyone happy and everyone's ideas should matter.

If the main NA car runs mid 8's, why would you create a new class for cars to run low 9's?? Shouldn't you just put them back in the same class if they're that close to each other??

Pro Stock John
03-29-2011, 10:19 AM
I'd build a car for a low 10 class with a weight to cubes structure that made sense.

5.3LJimmy
03-29-2011, 10:24 AM
If the main NA car runs mid 8's, why would you create a new class for cars to run low 9's?? Shouldn't you just put them back in the same class if they're that close to each other??

This is my exact issue with JL's suggestions. He sounds like he is campaigning for a class that's .4-.5 slower than the current all motor class. That is just gonna pull the slower all motor cars from the current class and leave maybe two to duke it out. This makes no sense.

SlickVert
03-29-2011, 10:25 AM
I think it's great to discuss and put all our thoughts and opinions out there.
If a class like this was to ever come about It shouldn't be one persons ideas but a collaboration of a whole group of racers that agree on a set of rules.
Anyone who would help establish a class like this needs to listen to the racers and make concessions for all types of ls cars. It takes a special type of person to think globally, and be objective and unbiased.

I agree

Also, a slipper clutch is nothing more then a high stall converter on a auto.
The big difference is a Racing Clutchless 5 speed tranny against a Auto or 4 speed manual that needs the clutch for gear changes. There is problem at least 3 to 4 tenth difference in a racing 5 speed clutchless tranny over any type of 4 speed manual or auto.

I do think it would be cool to see a specific class for cars racing with the engine, tranny, computer that came in the a late model LS car and on pump gas (e.g. to include e85).
Now you would have a NA class that could show off the best GM has to offer.

It should not be only about the LS engine, GM is making some killer trannies and computers. It would be up to the racer to make it all work together.

Lets see the whole package with some small exceptions.

JL ws-6
03-29-2011, 12:53 PM
This is my exact issue with JL's suggestions. He sounds like he is campaigning for a class that's .4-.5 slower than the current all motor class. That is just gonna pull the slower all motor cars from the current class and leave maybe two to duke it out. This makes no sense.

Not true at all. My thoughts are aimed at a 9.5 to 9.1 field. The n/a cars will be running a FULL SECOND faster then that before the end of the year.

When you see one of these cars run a 8.1 pass you can look back at this and it will make alot more sense. They're not that far away from being able to do it already. The power is there, just a matter of the cars getting to work at their absolute best... which I don't think they are there yet with that.

blue99fbody
03-29-2011, 06:52 PM
That's not a bad idea either... just don't allow the mcloud softloc clutch. Anyone that took the time to get one of those figured out 100% will be .2 faster then they would be able to go with a regular clutch.

And if you limit that class like that, limit it to a stock pcm since they won't let you go over 8000 rpm... that will limit the power level as well for that class.

Honestly I don't think you'd get that many people to do a class like that though..... the damn tranny's break so much, and break so many driveline parts that the class would likly be won by the car that didn't try to go fast rather then the people going for it 100%... Make a 64 car field, and with qualifying and time trials, I'll say that at least 20 of the cars don't make it thru 2 pratice rounds, 3 qualifying passes and a round of racing without breaking something... smoking a clutch, something.

i agree with the stock pcm and no softloc clutch. and the comments on breaking parts, well that i think would help limit the class to keep it from becoming like all the others and growing to be too fast for the semi budget racer to compete. i think it could be a successfull 8.90-9.50 class, and keep it interesting for all having a chance trying to get them down the track rowing your own gears. maybe limit it to a single power adder (sorry lingenfelter guys), or not

BES Stroked Nova
03-29-2011, 11:05 PM
well might as well go into detail, you cant run anything any bigger than a 250 duration camshaft. no more than 11.0 to 1, intake port size limit to 225. etc etc.

it can go on endless....

vetteboy2k
03-30-2011, 07:54 AM
It probably best to keep throwing out ideas rather than making rules right now since we're not actually building a class next month.lol
But I can certainly appreciate the passion and interest in ls all motor drag racing.

raymond mckinney
03-30-2011, 12:35 PM
well might as well go into detail, you cant run anything any bigger than a 250 duration camshaft. no more than 11.0 to 1, intake port size limit to 225. etc etc.

it can go on endless....


Ls3 heads have a bigger intake port then that,Ls7 has 11.0 compression and a 255 intake port. Cant just leave them guys out.

BES Stroked Nova
03-30-2011, 03:57 PM
Ls3 heads have a bigger intake port then that,Ls7 has 11.0 compression and a 255 intake port. Cant just leave them guys out.

I was being smartass about wanting to leave out what clutch you can run, just cause I'll have a Soft Lok clutch.

If they make a T56 heads up class, and want to limit the clutch, I'll just throw in a DFX and go for it.

GrahamHill
03-30-2011, 09:53 PM
I'd build a car for a low 10 class with a weight to cubes structure that made sense.

That still won't fix the problem.

"Internet Junkie" builds an 800hp 427" to run beside "Mr Deep Pockets" 1000hp 427" at the same weight. Mr Deep Pockets is probably more intelligent than to stick a hot engine in an otherwise stock car with no back seat too hehehe

5.3LJimmy
03-31-2011, 08:56 AM
Not true at all. My thoughts are aimed at a 9.5 to 9.1 field. The n/a cars will be running a FULL SECOND faster then that before the end of the year.

When you see one of these cars run a 8.1 pass you can look back at this and it will make alot more sense. They're not that far away from being able to do it already. The power is there, just a matter of the cars getting to work at their absolute best... which I don't think they are there yet with that.

I agree with you here about the 8.1 in the current AM class. The thing I'm looking at is the 4 years it took for the cars to get to that point. This was trial and error along with folks maximizing their combos(A few tweaks to the rules along with this years reduction in weight play a role too). I think it would be foolish to start at class at the 9.0 level and expect cars to jump right in.

It would be better to build the rules targeting the 9.5-10.0 range. This would entice those of us that want to run heads up to give it a shot. I think there would already be enough cars to fill this class just pulling from the Index field. After a couple years the cars will get faster under the same rules and all involved will make changes to keep up. The aftermarket ECU's are roughly a half second advantage out of the gate and would likely stop the class before it starts.

I say keep it simple like the original suggestion by Justin. All motor, stock fuel injection, GM original equipment trannys, lowest base weight set at 346 c.i. with 427 max cubes, stock appearing cars with no wheelie bars or chutes, and call it LSX Pure Street.

fasttagurl
03-31-2011, 09:15 AM
I agree with you here about the 8.1 in the current AM class. The thing I'm looking at is the 4 years it took for the cars to get to that point. This was trial and error along with folks maximizing their combos(A few tweaks to the rules along with this years reduction in weight play a role too). I think it would be foolish to start at class at the 9.0 level and expect cars to jump right in.

It would be better to build the rules targeting the 9.5-10.0 range. This would entice those of us that want to run heads up to give it a shot. I think there would already be enough cars to fill this class just pulling from the Index field. After a couple years the cars will get faster under the same rules and all involved will make changes to keep up. The aftermarket ECU's are roughly a half second advantage out of the gate and would likely stop the class before it starts.

I say keep it simple like the original suggestion by Justin. All motor, stock fuel injection, GM original equipment trannys, lowest base weight set at 346 c.i. with 427 max cubes, stock appearing cars with no wheelie bars or chutes, and call it LSX Pure Street.

PERFECT RECOMMENDATIONS!! :judge:

JL ws-6
03-31-2011, 09:16 AM
The 9.1 that I'm throwing out there, is what I think the car's would end up at, with some given time..... kind of like the 8.1 that I think the all motor cars will get to by the time they're running 100%....

I'd guess that initially a 9.5 car would be able to clean up with the given rules, or at leastd be a top 5 car. In a year or 2 of the class being around... I don't think it would be enough.

The stock ign thing... that's the one that I just can't agree on. Guy with a 69 nova builds a 388 big bore ls motor and puts a carb on it, runs a 6al box as the ign, it runs 9.90 on motor and is about where the weight would need to be for him to run the class.. and it's not legal because of the ign. That to me isn't right. And there's ALOT of cars out there that fit that bill. Guys that bought lsx 376 motor's that are in older cars, and are running in the speed range that would fit the class... they put a carb on because that's what they had in the car and know.... it's not right to give them the boot just because they used their old ign system and don't have the stock ecm and wiring, nevermind not having any idea what to do with it.

Thinking big picture here....

studderin
03-31-2011, 10:38 AM
A slower NA class would be great. What heads up classes are working out there right now? I can't think of much> I know that MIR, World Cup Finals (Import vs Domestic) has a few classes setup for NA LS1s. I know a few guys have been racing in that.

EDGAR PEREZ and another car fit in that True street class running low 10's 9.90s NA (67mm turbo hondas dominated that class running mid9's tho) The rules need work, but they have it classed for LS1s for a start.

TRUE STREET
http://importvsdomestic.com/rules/05/2010_wcf_truestreet.pdf
8-Cylinder Engines – Chevy LT / LS / LQ series
Engine: Only the following factory blocks are permitted: LT1, LT4, LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6, LS7, LQ9, and LQ4 series blocks only. No aftermarket blocks are permitted. Any internal engine modifications
are permitted. Max CID is 427ci.
Approved Cylinder Heads: Aftermarket cylinder heads are permitted. Canted valve heads, C5R heads, and billet heads are prohibited.
Power Adders: Turbochargers, Superchargers, and Nitrous Oxide are prohibited. All nitrous bottles and solenoids must be removed from car and nitrous nozzles must be capped.
Induction: Engine may be EFI or carbureted. Aftermarket commercially available intakes only are permitted. No fabricated or sheet metal intakes.
Engine Motor & Max Displacement Car & Driver Minimum Weight
8-cylinder LT, LS, LQ (346ci - 376ci.) 2900 lbs.
8-cylinder LT, LS, LQ (377ci - 410ci.) 3100 lbs.
8-cylinder LT, LS, LQ (411ci - 427ci.) 3300 lbs.

MOTOR STREET, was a mid 10,low11's class. Had a handful of LS1 in it.
http://importvsdomestic.com/rules/06/2010_wcf_motorstreet.pdf

Race Format: Quick 16 field run on a pro ladder. This is a heads-up class with a .400 Pro tree, and no breakout. The class will be run on the 1/4 mile.
Body: 1987 & newer vehicles only. Import or domestic bodies allowed. Lightweight components are limited to hood, front fenders, decklid, hatches, sunroofs, wings, ground effects, and bumpers only. Roof,
Quarter panels, and doors must remain steel. One-piece front ends are not permitted. No body parts may be removed during competition. Forward facing hood scoops are not permitted on 8-cylinder cars, unless it
comes OEM from the factory.
Chassis: All cars must retain complete stock chassis, floorboard, firewall, and frame rails. Notching of chassis for clearance is permitted. Aftermarket “K” members are permitted.
Suspension: All cars must utilize stock front and rear suspension and mounts. Aftermarket front and rear control arms, struts, shocks, and sub-frame connectors are permitted. Ladder bars, four links, and wheelie
bars are prohibited on all cars.
Street Equipment: Headlights and brake lights are required (one headlight may be removed for induction).
Windows: All windows must be OEM glass.
Interior: Stock dashboard and full interior from front seats forward is required (passenger seat may be removed). Aftermarket seats, gauges, and interior are permitted.
Exhaust: Muffler(s) are required.
Electronics: Two-steps, data loggers, aftermarket ECU’s, and engine management systems are allowed.
Driveline: Aftermarket axles, ring and pinions, spools, and differentials are permitted. Other OEM or aftermarket center sections and rear-ends may be replaced only if is a direct bolt in. IRS suspension cars may
convert to straight axle only if it is a direct bolt in.
Transmission: Manual or Auto transmissions are permitted. Automatic transmission must be of same manufacturer as vehicle. Manual transmissions are permitted to use aftermarket stock-style clutch-assisted
transmissions. Sequential transmissions are prohibited. Aftermarket bell housings are permitted.
Clutch / Shifter: The use of slider, adjustable, or any “Slipper style” clutch prohibited. Two discs maximum. Clutch must be manually operated by driver’s foot. Shifter must be H-pattern. Strain gauges are not
permitted. Air shifters and electric shifters are prohibited.
Fuel: Gasoline and E-85 permitted. Alcohol is prohibited. Aftermarket fuel cells are permitted and may be mounted in engine bay or rear of vehicle.
Tires: All tires are checked by sidewall designation
FWD cars: Maximum size slick or bias ply tire is 25.0” x 9.5”. Any size DOT radial tire is permitted, except 315/60/15, 325/50/15, 295/55/15, or 295/60/15.
RWD cars: Maximum size slick or bias ply tire is 26.0” x 11.5”. Any size DOT radial tire is permitted, except 315/60/15, 325/50/15, 295/55/15, or 295/60/15.
2-


8-Cylinder Engines – Chevy LT / LS series
Engine: This is for cam only cars, with bolt-ons. Only the following factory blocks are permitted: LT1, LT4, LS1, LS2, LS3, and LS6 series blocks only. LS2 and LS3 engines and cylinder heads are
only permitted in cars with IRS rear suspension. No aftermarket blocks are permitted. Internal engine modifications are prohibited except for overbore, aftermarket camshafts, hydraulic lifters, and
valve springs only. See chart below for max CID. External bolt-on parts are allowed.
Approved Cylinder Heads: Any valve job is permitted. OEM cylinder heads only are permitted with the following casting numbers: 241, 243, 317, 706, 799, 853, and 862. Cylinder heads must
remain stock, no port work or milling of cylinder head.
Power Adders: Turbochargers, Superchargers, and Nitrous Oxide are prohibited. All nitrous bottles and solenoids must be removed from car and nitrous nozzles must be capped.
Induction: Engine must be EFI. All OEM intakes are permitted. The only aftermarket intakes permitted are: BBK intakes, Typhoon intakes, and Fast 78mm, 90mm, 92mm, and 102mm intakes.
Engine Motor & Max Displacement Cylinder Heads Car & Driver Minimum Weight
8-cylinder LT1 & LT4 (Up to 355ci.) (Un-Ported as cast) 2950 lbs.
8-cylinder LS1 & LS6 (Up to 348ci.) (Un-Ported as cast) 3050 lbs.
8-cylinder LS2 (Up to 366ci.) (Un-Ported as cast) 3150 lbs.
8-cylinder LS3 (Up to 380ci.) (Un-Ported as cast) 3350 lbs.


I wasn't around but isn't that kinds like the older North Vs South races, I think thunder racing did and some other shops 02-05ish? Didn't that have like a stock internal class, and a cam,heads class? Not sure how that would work if there $1-3K for top 3 for cheating. Having a $500 tear down protest for some guys new c6 he drove there? I know I have no problems with that, I wanted some guys to put the money up.

I see what JL is saying about the swap cars but I haven't really seen that many of those cars there in the lanes. But I see a TON of cars that end up in index, you can pull out for 1-3 head up NA classes.

Anonymous
03-31-2011, 06:15 PM
^^^This True Street @ MIR is a good class^^^

I plan on going this year if I can.
Had a race schedule conflict last year.

Scott@GMHTP
04-04-2011, 11:22 AM
The stock PCM rule would only apply to EFI cars. Carb guys would have to abide by the carb size restrictions, and run a coil-on-plug setup using something like MSD's 6LS. Good suggestions on the heads, perhaps any OEM head and a list of approved aftermarket heads would be necessary.

ATVracr
04-04-2011, 12:57 PM
^^^This True Street @ MIR is a good class^^^

I plan on going this year if I can.
Had a race schedule conflict last year.

Some smart people help put those rules together. :)

ShiznityZ28
04-04-2011, 02:03 PM
Some smart people help put those rules together. :)

LOL No way those guys install gutters and fix computers.

nmass399
04-04-2011, 02:52 PM
wow, i could almost fit in motor street perfectly, just need a cam and to put the interior back in. Still too heavy but i could run 10.9x on a good pass

REDGAR
04-04-2011, 05:53 PM
Some smart people help put those rules together. :)

Can you ask them to slow those little cars down in True Street so and LS brother has a chance? ;) ;)

ShiznityZ28
04-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Can you ask them to slow those little cars down in True Street so and LS brother has a chance? ;) ;)

LOL. we don' pick the et. we just help keep the ls guys in those et's some of the frord and honda techs don;t do so well at the target et. Jason has already said there will be a fe changes and less restrictions for some of the lscrowd. Ill hit you up when it comes time to run some of the vette stuff past you for opinions.

Anonymous
04-05-2011, 03:06 PM
LOL. we don' pick the et. we just help keep the ls guys in those et's some of the frord and honda techs don;t do so well at the target et. Jason has already said there will be a fe changes and less restrictions for some of the lscrowd. Ill hit you up when it comes time to run some of the vette stuff past you for opinions.

Yeah, well I don't know what is better, Speeding up the NA LS cars or slowing down the Imports?

The class is a great class from a rules perspective, as far as weights vs. displacement and a few other things...relating to This Thread.

But related to the World Cup Finals, the Import cars are wayyy toooo fast.

Last year they had all of the domestics covered by 1/2 a second.
I was under the impression this was supposed to be a mid to high 9 second class? The Imports ran as fast as 9.1X and occupied the first 5 or 6 qualifying positions.

The fastest Domestic was Dave (from NJ) who runs in Mean Street in the NMCA, in his 5.0 Mustang.
He got crushed and he knows what he is doing.
So parity is definitely missing.

I don't know what, because I don't know imports, but something is definitely wrong.

studderin
04-05-2011, 04:49 PM
I dont think anyone LS, was close the the min weight? I was going to go but the 26" tire thing was to much to change for 1 race.

Firehawk441
04-10-2011, 08:53 AM
I agree


The big difference is a Racing Clutchless 5 speed tranny against a Auto or 4 speed manual that needs the clutch for gear changes. There is problem at least 3 to 4 tenth difference in a racing 5 speed clutchless tranny over any type of 4 speed manual or auto.


Didn't Lashley go approx. 1/2 second quicker buy switching from the auto to a Liberty?

Pro Stock John
04-10-2011, 10:35 AM
Yeah they totally did.

I don't like that this class allows non-oem transmissions. I think that's a big step for the all motor guys in our scene.

Firehawk441
04-10-2011, 11:19 AM
Wouldn't that simple rule change even the playing field a bit more? Dave went 8.6 with an auto right?
Most of the cars are built about the same and if the trannys were the same the difference would be mostly about the engines used and of course making the car 60'. Just a thought...

WESTPORT AUTO
04-28-2011, 08:32 PM
There have been alot of great ways to make this a good heads up class but it dosnt look like anyone is going to make any changes.Allowing non oem transmissions has been the difference,and its very clear.I wonder who will win the next 2 LSX AM races?????? :eyes::eyes::eyes:

JL ws-6
04-28-2011, 08:38 PM
I am willing to bet it won't be a car with an OEM style tranny....


So unless someone steps up and buys a liberty tranny, and mods the car so you can pull the tunnel off to do clutch setup/maintenance, and makes the doors an easy lift off at the same time.... well you get the point.

JBM
04-28-2011, 08:54 PM
Easier short term fix would be to go back to the 28" tire. The fast orange car was never consistant pass to pass until the 29.5.

1BDHWK
05-01-2011, 04:41 PM
I really like those True Street rules! That sounds like a fun class! I may need to look into that.:nod:

GIZMO
05-01-2011, 08:05 PM
Easier short term fix would be to go back to the 28" tire. The fast orange car was never consistant pass to pass until the 29.5.

Why is making the cars dangerous a fix? The 30" tire is one of the best changes that they made.

ATVracr
05-02-2011, 08:47 AM
Why is making the cars dangerous a fix? The 30" tire is one of the best changes that they made.

How does a 28" tire make a car dangerous?

Run on radials, that will take a big part of the high dollar stick shift advantage away.

vetteboy2k
05-02-2011, 09:26 AM
Why is making the cars dangerous a fix? The 30" tire is one of the best changes that they made.

I don't think it makes it dangerous. Some of us can't even fit a 28" tire on the car.
The rules also don't allow an 11" wide tire which sucks for vettes because now they can't even run a 26" tire that will hold. It would be nice to see some fair, realistic rules adjustments that considers all lsx cars.

Codefive
05-02-2011, 12:53 PM
Now you guys are starting to see what I've been talking about all along.

28" tires and NO Libertys would bring parity back to the class in a heartbeat! At least there would be FOUR cars going with in a 1/10th of each other instead of one dominating the class ... and hopefully more creeping up on those four. It would lead to some good racing worth watching as well IMO.

WESTPORT AUTO
05-02-2011, 08:26 PM
This post has been at the top of the list for a while,IS ANYONE THAT MAKES THESE RULES LISTENING or are we just wasting time here.
Level the playing field and lets see who builds the fastest LS motor.I would bet we would have a very competitive class.

JBM
05-02-2011, 08:38 PM
Tough to tell SAM and Lachey's that they dropped 15k and have to put an auto back in.
I dont really care either way. After talking to my carb guy last week, I realize my set up will never run well without a forward facing scoop. TB cars can do better with the cowl. I cut and fitted the hood yesterday, and dont have plans to make a cowl set up for a couple of races.
It would be cool to see the orange car dip into the 7s. Would be cooler to see a competitive 10 car field. Best of luck guys.

GIZMO
05-03-2011, 03:02 PM
The fast orange car was never consistant pass to pass until the 29.5.

I thought that this statement was pretty clear.

One thing that I really noticed in Atlanta was how many heads-up cars were all over the place. There were also way more wrecks than I am used too (I am talking about all of the classes not just LSX). Keep in mind that I am used to watching hundreds of Stock and Super Stock cars go down the lanes without issues (in way less time).

I think that a better way to level the playing field would be to limit the carb/TB.

JL ws-6
05-03-2011, 03:18 PM
Tire size is a good way to do it.

Or, here's a way to get it done:

If you have a non factory equipped manual transmission, you are limited to a 28x10.5 no stiff sidewall tire, max rim width of 10 inches.

There, that solves that issue. No W tires, 28 inch max, and no spreading it out with a 12 inch rim either. That will put them back in their place a little bit.

DBN
05-03-2011, 05:18 PM
The tire size and non-oem transmissions should be addressed. I am not suggesting that non-oem transmissions be outlawed but they should carry a substantial weight penalty. Tire size should also be looked at to help level the field a bit.

This post has been at the top of the list for a while,IS ANYONE THAT MAKES THESE RULES LISTENING or are we just wasting time here.

It doesn't appear so. I was told by one offical that there are no plans to make any adjustments to the rules in the all motor class this year.

REDGAR
05-03-2011, 09:35 PM
This post has been at the top of the list for a while,IS ANYONE THAT MAKES THESE RULES LISTENING or are we just wasting time here.
Level the playing field and lets see who builds the fastest LS motor.I would bet we would have a very competitive class.

the bigger question is has anyone talked to them? racers discussing topics on ls1tech is fun for us but not anywhere near the place for the form to ask for rule changes of an organization. If they read this, great but, we really cannot expect them to monitor a forum like this all the time.

My suggestion is you write up your proposal and call or mail NMCA with your suggestion. And if others agree with your proposals ask them to do the same

LS1LT1
05-03-2011, 11:07 PM
The tire size and non-oem transmissions should be addressed. I am not suggesting that non-oem transmissions be outlawed but they should carry a substantial weight penalty. Tire size should also be looked at to help level the field a bit.Adding/removing weight has always been a great way to allow various combinations to race within one class/series, it makes for a great equalizer and can also help greatly with those all too critical and much needed car counts. :nod:






the bigger question is has anyone talked to them? racers discussing topics on ls1tech is fun for us but not anywhere near the place for the form to ask for rule changes of an organization. If they read this, great but, we really cannot expect them to monitor a forum like this all the time.

My suggestion is you write up your proposal and call or mail NMCA with your suggestion. And if others agree with your proposals ask them to do the same:nod: I agree.
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Pro Stock John
05-04-2011, 01:39 PM
I think that a better way to level the playing field would be to limit the carb/TB.

That sounds interesting.

I've seen NMCA changes rules/ add weight etc mid-season in other classes, I don't think asking for a review is unreasonable here.

Having Jud on 29.5's with bars and unlimited engine and you have problems.

DBN
05-04-2011, 02:01 PM
Like I said before:I was told by one offical that there are no plans to make any adjustments to the rules in the all motor class this year. If many people contact the rules makers directly (NMCA) then maybe they will listen to us. At least it is worth a try.

JL ws-6
05-04-2011, 02:13 PM
That may also be a way to even the field.. if you have an aftermarket transmission (non-oem) make them run a 28x10.5 tire and no wheelie bars. That will settle it out right there.

GIZMO
05-04-2011, 02:21 PM
That may also be a way to even the field.. if you have an aftermarket transmission (non-oem) make them run a 28x10.5 tire and no wheelie bars. That will settle it out right there.

Again, why is that a good way? Causing high HP cars to go out of control is not a good way to level the field. The liberal motor rules make these cars unsafe without a good tire.

JL ws-6
05-04-2011, 02:39 PM
No matter what ya do they will cry. I'd rather see them have all the power and have to fight to get it down the track then put a block under the pedal... Besides, you limit the TB size they will find a way around that somehow... either by engine size, etc.

Limit the tire and no wheelie bar, they will only be able to go as fast as they can set the car up... alot bigger limitation IMO.

Anonymous
05-04-2011, 02:57 PM
Again, why is that a good way? Causing high HP cars to go out of control is not a good way to level the field. The liberal motor rules make these cars unsafe without a good tire.

Gizmo I know what your preaching and understand your perspective but...

The reality is guys are going mid 7's with much more power on smaller tires all around the country.

The NMCA's very own NA class, "Pro Stock" does not allow wheelie bars.

These guys are just trying to level the playing field.

If it isn't addressed, there won't even be a class.

Its already a 1 man show with another guy in a distant 2nd place.
It has been that way for years.

Anonymous
05-04-2011, 03:34 PM
If you NA guys really want to address this you need to do 2 things.

1) Go to the NMCA with your ideas the formal way.

2) Get Jud from SAM on your side.
You have to convince him as much as anyone in the NMCA.
He is the class of the field, has deep pockets, is a sponsor of the event and has heavy political influence.
Get him on your side and you are 70% of the way there.

The reality is no matter what rules you come up with, he is going to dominate the class.
I realize you are just trying to level the field enough, so that if someone catches him sleeping or he gets out of shape a little, that you have a chance.

Jud should not be opposed to a little competition?

My opinion:
Get rid of the mega dollar transmissions, it eliminates more people than it helps.

Tires...In this day and age if you can't get it done with a 28" inch you better go back to school.
Can anyone say mid to low 7's?
IDK why they went to the big tire except for the obvious reason of just dump the clutch and hang on.

Getting rid of the wheelie bars is a double edge sword.
It puts more emphasis on chassis set up, but if you get it wrong and shoot for the stars, it is going to cost you a bundle to repair the car, on top of possibly missing the event.
Jud can afford to fix his car and he has 15 people there to make the repairs.
My advice...keep them.

That is my $.03.:nod:

JL ws-6
05-04-2011, 03:41 PM
I'd suggest keeping the wheelie bars, but for a way to combat the maga dollar trans, don't allow both. Rule could read oem style trans automatic or manually shifted, with wheelie bars

If an aftermarket transmission is used wheelie bars are not allowed.

The 28 inch tire thing also I agree with. Because if you allow a bigger tire, you basicially force everyone to run it, simply because it's going to be more consistant, and getting down the track will be that much easier.

LS1LT1
05-04-2011, 03:53 PM
If you NA guys really want to address this you need to do 2 things.

1) Go to the NMCA with your ideas the formal way.

2) Get Jud from SAM on your side.
You have to convince him as much as anyone in the NMCA.
He is the class of the field, has deep pockets, is a sponsor of the event and has heavy political influence.
Get him on your side and you are 70% of the way there.

The reality is no matter what rules you come up with, he is going to dominate the class.
I realize you are just trying to level the field enough, so that if someone catches him sleeping or he gets out of shape a little, that you have a chance.

Jud should not be opposed to a little competition?

My opinion:
Get rid of the mega dollar transmissions, it eliminates more people than it helps.

Tires...In this day and age if you can't get it done with a 28" inch you better go back to school.
Can anyone say mid to low 7's?
IDK why they went to the big tire except for the obvious reason of just dump the clutch and hang on.

Getting rid of the wheelie bars is a double edge sword.
It puts more emphasis on chassis set up, but if you get it wrong and shoot for the stars, it is going to cost you a bundle to repair the car, on top of possibly missing the event.I'd suggest keeping the wheelie bars, but for a way to combat the maga dollar trans, don't allow both. Rule could read oem style trans automatic or manually shifted, with wheelie bars

If an aftermarket transmission is used wheelie bars are not allowed.

The 28 inch tire thing also I agree with. Because if you allow a bigger tire, you basicially force everyone to run it, simply because it's going to be more consistant, and getting down the track will be that much easier.Excellent suggestions. :nod:

DBN
05-04-2011, 07:09 PM
I agree with all three of your suggestions steve. Those are the three areas that I think would even the field the most. No wheelie bars, go back to the 28x10.5 non-W tire and the non oem transmission is allowed with a significant weight penalty.

Codefive
05-05-2011, 04:25 PM
the bigger question is has anyone talked to them? racers discussing topics on ls1tech is fun for us but not anywhere near the place for the form to ask for rule changes of an organization. If they read this, great but, we really cannot expect them to monitor a forum like this all the time.

My suggestion is you write up your proposal and call or mail NMCA with your suggestion. And if others agree with your proposals ask them to do the same

Last spring I had an hour long conversation with Scott Sparrow specifically about this class (after submitting a detailed letter to both NMCA and the LSX guys. Even CCed Robin on it to make sure it was heard). He made it clear to me then that they were seriously considering dropping it all together because of the LACK OF CAR COUNT. We discussed several ways to try and build CAR COUNT. In another thread, Jeff piped in and said this was "not an entry level class" and that it was for the biggest & baddest cars out there. So it seems that one hand doesnt necessarily want what the other hand wants in the scheme of things.

As for the tire size being dangerous ... tell me how X275 cars have no problem going 7s @ over 180 on a 27-1/2X9-1/2" radial but a 28X10 slick is dangerous??? I think that may have alot more to do with the car than the tire IMO. Like anything else ... its a learning curve.

Another guy mentioned limiting the engine ... WHY? the name of the class is "ALL MOTOR". The engine should not have ANY limits. The CAR is what needs limits, plain & simple.

SlickVert
05-05-2011, 07:06 PM
My suggestion would leave all the rules as is and just make a weight correction to the non OEM tranny's to make it a closer race.

The car count is better and the racers have spent a lot of money building these cars to the rules. Leave all the rules alone and make a simple weight adjustment.

Bob

Judson@SAM
05-17-2011, 02:58 PM
I would like to thank everyone for their interest and input in this discussion of the all motor LSX class. I am going to present some “food for thought” statements I feel will aid the discussion and then give my personal, unbiased as possible, thoughts on the class overall.

Obviously, the clutchless five speed is the big concern from a money and performance stand point. The $15,000 figure thrown around is fairly accurate, if starting with new parts. I have seen it done for under $10,000 with careful shopping of used parts. Let’s compare that to an “OEM” automatic. If you think you can compete in a heads up all motor class with a $2,500 trans and a $300 convertor you are sadly mistaken. It takes a $6,000-$7,000 trans and a $1,000-$5,000 convertor. There are some very fast $1,000 convertors out there but figure on buying at least 3. We throw in two or three gear sets and a “clean neutral shifter” and if we started with 10 grand we will have enough money left over to pay for the tow rig fuel for the first couple of races. This results in a $5000 savings over the 5 speed set up. $5,000 is a considerable amount of money but not as bad as $15,000 for the 5 speed sounds. The other guys are running something for a trans/converter that cost money.

Now let’s look at the performance advantage. I cannot produce a definitive answer because of the variables but I assure you I can get closer than my good friend, Pro Stock John’s statement, “Lashley picked up a ½ second.” When Chris and Bobby, both great guys by the way, brought out the Liberty they had the benefit of mineshaft air and great track conditions. This is the same way I ran that 8.58 in Memphis at 3500 lbs, mineshaft air and a good track.

NHRA has the highest penalty I know of for a 5 speed over an automatic-250 lbs. If one looks at the automatic verses stick records they will see that the majority are +- a tenth, some the stick is faster, and some the auto is. So at first glance it looks as though 250 lbs should be the limit, not the 125 now in effect for our class. Let me point out that the NHRA cars run essentially unlimited tires. With these come the ability to leave with full power applied, therefore being able to utilize a very low, high numerically, first gear. Granted the five gears in any combination keep the engine in a narrow range but the reduced 60 ft. times is as or more important. The 10.5 tire removes one of the advantages of the five speed. How much difference the tire situation is actually worth is open for debate, but one can see 250 would not be needed with the 10.5 tires. It should be noted that the comp eliminator engines are all the shortest stroke and largest bore possible at their cubic inches. This makes the narrow range provided by five gears of greater importance than in the case of our long stroke engines dictated by the need to be in the 430-440 cid range to fit the class weights. Am I the only one that noticed that a cathedral port headed automatic qualified 2nd in Atlanta?

Now let’s look at two classes more similar to ours: NMRA Hot Street and NMCA Pro stock. The weight penalty for the five speed is 75 lbs. So, how many cars in these two classes are running this incredibly fast manual trans set up with only a 75 lb penalty? I know of one at this time and it’s not winning. Guys, there are some players in these two classes that spending $15,000 to switch would be no problem. Seems they don’t think it’s worth near as much as most on this forum do. I would lose money betting that if I took the convertor and trans out of my Hot Street Mustang and removed the 125 lb weight penalty, the orange car would run 30’s in one test session. I base this on this on the Mustang running 8.40’s at 2900 lbs with 145 less horsepower. Looking at it from another perspective, if we went to the NHRA weight I would have to add 125 lb. One hundred lbs on my Camaro has shown to be .08. This would slow the car one tenth. The manual trans is not the problem.

Let’s now take a look at the 29.5 vs 28 tires. I have already been through this with my Mustang and the rule changes last year. The 29’s are .03 to .04 faster on a marginal track, .02 on a great track, and if the track goes away neither will run. It was mentioned that the orange car was inconsistent with the 28’s. It was not the tires, it was the clutch. We used every one of the passes at the races last year as a test and tune for the clutch set ups. This almost lost us the race in St. Louis. Everyone thought that 8.90/15X mph in the finals was me shutting off. It was not, that was all the power the clutch would take. The car ran low 50’s with 1.20-1.22 sixty foots on the 28’s at 3350 at the NMCA Houston race. It runs 1.19-1.21 on the 29.5’s at 3050. The current 60 foot times can be attributed to the weight reduction more than tire change. It is easy to look at the 60 foot reductions in both Hot Street and Pro Stock with their change in tires; about .03 to .04.

I would like to share with everyone some information I gave to Chris, Lashley’s driver, while at Atlanta. Don Baskins is about to pick up his carbureted cast manifold LSX built by Bischoff. We are going to find out very soon if 8.20’s are fast.

Chris said they are pulling out their engine and having it gone thru. The Lashley engine is a nice piece but basically 3 or 4 year old technology. The heads were done by one of the best head porters in the country, but I would guess they were built with C.S.A. and valve size for 1,000-1,500 RPM less than what we are turning now. I assume Proline will be doing their work. They will pick up 3-4 tenths if Bobby turns them loose. This car will be as fast, or faster, than what the orange car is running now. Baskin’s cars could be a game changer. My Camaro is just a big fish in a small pond. The pond is going to get larger.

Speaking of a larger pond it is beyond my comprehension as to why JBM is not going to run in this class. The car is a cowl hood away. I was told his carburetor man was Dale Cubic. I have nothing but respect for that man, but I know for a fact two carbs will run with a cowl hood. I am well aware they will run faster with a forward facing scoop but so will a throttle body set up. I have data on one dual carb, cowl to forward facing scoop, two single carb, and one single throttle body set up. In all cases the cars picked up .06 to .1 and 1.5 to 3 mph. Put the hood on and help us get the ten car field you wished for. I am sure there will be some controversy in my statements, but that’s the way I see it. The class is All Motor not Some Motor.

vetteboy2k
05-18-2011, 09:52 AM
I would like to thank everyone for their interest and input in this discussion of the all motor LSX class. I am going to present some “food for thought” statements I feel will aid the discussion and then give my personal, unbiased as possible, thoughts on the class overall.

Obviously, the clutchless five speed is the big concern from a money and performance stand point. The $15,000 figure thrown around is fairly accurate, if starting with new parts. I have seen it done for under $10,000 with careful shopping of used parts. Let’s compare that to an “OEM” automatic. If you think you can compete in a heads up all motor class with a $2,500 trans and a $300 convertor you are sadly mistaken. It takes a $6,000-$7,000 trans and a $1,000-$5,000 convertor. There are some very fast $1,000 convertors out there but figure on buying at least 3. We throw in two or three gear sets and a “clean neutral shifter” and if we started with 10 grand we will have enough money left over to pay for the tow rig fuel for the first couple of races. This results in a $5000 savings over the 5 speed set up. $5,000 is a considerable amount of money but not as bad as $15,000 for the 5 speed sounds. The other guys are running something for a trans/converter that cost money.

Now let’s look at the performance advantage. I cannot produce a definitive answer because of the variables but I assure you I can get closer than my good friend, Pro Stock John’s statement, “Lashley picked up a ½ second.” When Chris and Bobby, both great guys by the way, brought out the Liberty they had the benefit of mineshaft air and great track conditions. This is the same way I ran that 8.58 in Memphis at 3500 lbs, mineshaft air and a good track.

NHRA has the highest penalty I know of for a 5 speed over an automatic-250 lbs. If one looks at the automatic verses stick records they will see that the majority are +- a tenth, some the stick is faster, and some the auto is. So at first glance it looks as though 250 lbs should be the limit, not the 125 now in effect for our class. Let me point out that the NHRA cars run essentially unlimited tires. With these come the ability to leave with full power applied, therefore being able to utilize a very low, high numerically, first gear. Granted the five gears in any combination keep the engine in a narrow range but the reduced 60 ft. times is as or more important. The 10.5 tire removes one of the advantages of the five speed. How much difference the tire situation is actually worth is open for debate, but one can see 250 would not be needed with the 10.5 tires. It should be noted that the comp eliminator engines are all the shortest stroke and largest bore possible at their cubic inches. This makes the narrow range provided by five gears of greater importance than in the case of our long stroke engines dictated by the need to be in the 430-440 cid range to fit the class weights. Am I the only one that noticed that a cathedral port headed automatic qualified 2nd in Atlanta?

Now let’s look at two classes more similar to ours: NMRA Hot Street and NMCA Pro stock. The weight penalty for the five speed is 75 lbs. So, how many cars in these two classes are running this incredibly fast manual trans set up with only a 75 lb penalty? I know of one at this time and it’s not winning. Guys, there are some players in these two classes that spending $15,000 to switch would be no problem. Seems they don’t think it’s worth near as much as most on this forum do. I would lose money betting that if I took the convertor and trans out of my Hot Street Mustang and removed the 125 lb weight penalty, the orange car would run 30’s in one test session. I base this on this on the Mustang running 8.40’s at 2900 lbs with 145 less horsepower. Looking at it from another perspective, if we went to the NHRA weight I would have to add 125 lb. One hundred lbs on my Camaro has shown to be .08. This would slow the car one tenth. The manual trans is not the problem.

Let’s now take a look at the 29.5 vs 28 tires. I have already been through this with my Mustang and the rule changes last year. The 29’s are .03 to .04 faster on a marginal track, .02 on a great track, and if the track goes away neither will run. It was mentioned that the orange car was inconsistent with the 28’s. It was not the tires, it was the clutch. We used every one of the passes at the races last year as a test and tune for the clutch set ups. This almost lost us the race in St. Louis. Everyone thought that 8.90/15X mph in the finals was me shutting off. It was not, that was all the power the clutch would take. The car ran low 50’s with 1.20-1.22 sixty foots on the 28’s at 3350 at the NMCA Houston race. It runs 1.19-1.21 on the 29.5’s at 3050. The current 60 foot times can be attributed to the weight reduction more than tire change. It is easy to look at the 60 foot reductions in both Hot Street and Pro Stock with their change in tires; about .03 to .04.

I would like to share with everyone some information I gave to Chris, Lashley’s driver, while at Atlanta. Don Baskins is about to pick up his carbureted cast manifold LSX built by Bischoff. We are going to find out very soon if 8.20’s are fast.

Chris said they are pulling out their engine and having it gone thru. The Lashley engine is a nice piece but basically 3 or 4 year old technology. The heads were done by one of the best head porters in the country, but I would guess they were built with C.S.A. and valve size for 1,000-1,500 RPM less than what we are turning now. I assume Proline will be doing their work. They will pick up 3-4 tenths if Bobby turns them loose. This car will be as fast, or faster, than what the orange car is running now. Baskin’s cars could be a game changer. My Camaro is just a big fish in a small pond. The pond is going to get larger.

Speaking of a larger pond it is beyond my comprehension as to why JBM is not going to run in this class. The car is a cowl hood away. I was told his carburetor man was Dale Cubic. I have nothing but respect for that man, but I know for a fact two carbs will run with a cowl hood. I am well aware they will run faster with a forward facing scoop but so will a throttle body set up. I have data on one dual carb, cowl to forward facing scoop, two single carb, and one single throttle body set up. In all cases the cars picked up .06 to .1 and 1.5 to 3 mph. Put the hood on and help us get the ten car field you wished for. I am sure there will be some controversy in my statements, but that’s the way I see it. The class is All Motor not Some Motor.

It's good to hear things from a different perspective and I personally can appreciate all the hard work you did to get your car to where it is. Also people might not understand how much effort and time goes into tuning a clutch as you alluded to.
I guess what people are seeing/saying is that the 10 car field you and all of us are hoping for is just not going to happen consistently with the current rules in place. Many of the guys in this thread are the people who want to make up the field and be competitive. This thread holds the coveted 10 car field. Jud, you may have Lashley and this other fast car but that makes 2 or 3 which is ok but keeps out the bulk of the guys in here.

To me there is no right answer and I think its great to see all motor LS cars approach the 7 second barrier. One thing I do know is that if the field was in the mid to high 8 second range there would be alot more cars involved.
Thanks for setting the bar.

As for Larry Meaux, he's a unique guy will alot of talent,experience, and knowledge. I can think of another great head porter I'd trust just as much.:nod:

Pro Stock John
05-19-2011, 09:03 PM
Just for those wondering, it took Judson two years to write that post. :)

Great thoughts there.

I do think Baskin's car is exciting, look forward to seeing it in Bowling Green.

bagged36
06-28-2011, 11:19 AM
Can't wait till September, this should be fun to watch.