Road Racing - Attended my first HPDE, two questions

I attended my first HPDE and it was awesome. I had a blast, and my car performed marvelously. I didn't even come close to the car's limit in terms of grip, and the car was always stable and balanced. I really advanced quite a bit in terms of heel-toe as well.

I was braking very late and many times found myself on the brakes mid-corner. I eventually got the hang of it, but by then, my brakes had nearly completely faded. Is this what it means to spread a caliper? My brakes are stock, except for brembo blanks and Hawk HPS pads. Is that a permanent issue? I believe one of the calipers is a reman unit as well.

Also, while my power steering fluid boils over often, this is the first time I have seen white substance on the cap. It looks like a white, mirky substance that is inappropriate to speak about on a public forum. Is that a cause for concern?

Thanks guys. I also would appreciate any driving or prep tips for next time around. :chug:

Are you still using the stock power steering cooler? I'd double check and make sure that something didn't fail and cause engine coolant to enter that system.

I've never done a HPDE in my Camaro, but the driving school I attended taught us to be light and long on the brakes in Grand Sport and ZO6 Vettes...start a little earlier so you can go lighter, and trail brake a good distance into the corner to put a little extra weight on the front tires so they could have a little more grip for steering. We were running around a 2.2 mile course with the stock Vette pads/fluid/etc, and they were holding up just fine over 30 minutes sessions. I'm far from an expert, but it made sense to me, and it was much easier on the car at the end of the day.

The brakes fading doesn't necessarily mean that your calipers spread.. The pads could have just gotten too hot and exceeded their maximum temp to maintain optimum coefficient of friction. The HPS is a sport STREET pad.. Hell, if you are on a braking intensive track and running hard, the HP+ will also fall quite short.. I found out the hard way when I was coming down the front straight at Big Willow at 135+ into turn one which should have been taken at 70ish.. Came in hot, braked late, brakes faded.. Luckily all was well and I didn't bend it up.. But I did however boil the brake fluid and found the limit of the pads...

For your next HPDE event, I would strongly suggest getting a proper PS cooler, mounting it where it gets plenty of cool air across it, while still being protected and running a good hi-temp ATF in it.

For the brakes, I would suggest stepping up to a Hawk DTC-30 pad or equivalent, and flushing the brake fluid out to something made for high-temp racing type usage. Amsoil 600, Castrol SRF or like I use, Motul600 RBF.

If you are concerned about your calipers being spread, pull them off the rotors and measure them.. You can use a good machinist ruler sometimes and check for spread from the top of the caliper to the bottom of the face supports.

If he's got a Z28 likely dont have the power steering cooler.
I would flush out the fluid at the least...
There has to be some moisture in there some how,

The HPS's may not have been enough.
Those have a 800 temp max there abouts?
Doubt you spread the calipers, it take some heat & real racing to do that.
The pads would've gave up way before that.

I also would appreciate any driving or prep tips for next time around. :chug:

#1 ... run an extra quart of engine oil. And check it often as over-filling will cause it to burn away very fast. But you need the capacity to keep the oil level above the pump's pick-up tube.



You can install a cooler for the power steering. But it's just a band-aid. Your pump will fail. Many here use a pump revalved by Turn One. It's tried and true.

A couple years ago I found a company called Power Steering Components located about an hour from my house. They specialize is off-road racing, monster truck racing and rock crawling steering components.

They are able to take your pump and revalve it to a road race spec for about $100. They can turn it around in 24 hours, typically.

This pump, a small cooler and Red Line fluid and your pump issues will be gone forever.

And if you have a factory PS cooler which is in-line with the upper radiator hose, do yourself a favor and pitch that POS. Nothing like trying to cool PS fluid with 210* coolant.



Caliper spread is an issue that reduces pad life. The caliper will bend along it's back, opening the ears wider than the up close to the back. So the pad will taper, being thicker at the bottom thatn at the top.

After a while, you'll still get 100% pad surface contact, but you will be in the backing plate at the top and still lots of pad remaining at the bottom.

Only way to fix this is to replace the caliper. But don;t go back with a reman F-car caliper. Bite the bullet and install new GM C5 or C6 calipers. They are a direct bolt-on without and issue.

They've been on my CMC race car that way for years. It works just fine.



I've got HPS pads on my CTS-V and they will glaze at the end of a session. Mash the pedal and very little braking seems to be taking place. You need a more aggressive pad that can take the heat.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

While I do plan to upgrade the components, I wasn't expecting the HPDE to be that intense. It was for mostly first timers; I didn't really know what to expect. I wish I planned better, because my brakes really slowed me down (irony!).

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'm just worrying about spreading the brakes. Mostly because I don't know what it is, and when I see someone talk about it on here, it usually means they have to replace their brakes. My brakes do feel more mushy, and less responsive, but hopefully that is only the pads and fluid. I do plan on getting new pads, and flushing the burnt stuff for Amsoil 600 or equivalent. Perhaps some ceramics for the street, and an aggressive pad for the track. Time for some brake ducts too!

As for the Power Steering, that white froth is no reason for concern correct? My current plan is to bypass the cooler that runs along the rad hose, and mount an additional cooler onto the radiator. As for Mitchntx's suggestion of a new pump, I'll likely upgrade to that PSC unit once this one blows, but I have read that some have had success with just a cooler, and I hardly drive as hard as they do, so I'll save my money until that time comes. And some newer fluid.

Oh, and I'm running 6 quarts in my pan, I suppose its time to add some in there!

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I do appreciate it. :cheers: LS1tech really helped me build a solid car. I'm sure I surprised a few out there with this thing, especially myself!

As for the Power Steering, that white froth is no reason for concern correct? My current plan is to bypass the cooler that runs along the rad hose, and mount an additional cooler onto the radiator. As for Mitchntx's suggestion of a new pump, I'll likely upgrade to that PSC unit once this one blows, but I have read that some have had success with just a cooler, and I hardly drive as hard as they do, so I'll save my money until that time comes. And some newer fluid.

If it were me, I'd open the radiator cap and make sure the coolant looked alright (no cross-contamination), and I'd also pull a sample of the PS fluid from the reservoir. If the PS fluid still looks like ATF, and the coolant still looks like Kool-Aid, you should be fine. If either looks like a milk shake, you could have bigger problems that need to be addressed ASAP.

If it were me, I'd open the radiator cap and make sure the coolant looked alright (no cross-contamination), and I'd also pull a sample of the PS fluid from the reservoir. If the PS fluid still looks like ATF, and the coolant still looks like Kool-Aid, you should be fine. If either looks like a milk shake, you could have bigger problems that need to be addressed ASAP.

Thanks. The only possibility of cross contamination would be at the radiator hose, correct?

Provided the rest of your engine is in good shape - the only place where the PS fluid and coolant come close enough to touch would be in that cooler in the upper radiator hose.

If it were me, I'd open the radiator cap and make sure the coolant looked alright (no cross-contamination), and I'd also pull a sample of the PS fluid from the reservoir. If the PS fluid still looks like ATF, and the coolant still looks like Kool-Aid, you should be fine. If either looks like a milk shake, you could have bigger problems that need to be addressed ASAP.

The cooling system operates at 20psi or less. The PS system is more than that ... quite a bit more.

So unless there is a catastrophic failure in the heat exchanger inside the housing, fluid is only going to go one direction ... high psi to low.


Qwik - waiting for failure makes good fiscal sense. But if the pump fails and locks, not only will you losing power steering, you'll lose the drive belt, which turns the water pump and alternator.

Something to think about.

for PS fluid I recommend Joe Gibbs PSF...also, zip tie a rag over/around the filler cap to catch the boil over (not always a boil over, typically either a fluid expansion, and or our caps are just junk) as PSF will leak down onto sensors and wreak havoc...

As stated, get better pads. Everyone makes a set suitable for track. Start with a mild track pad and as they wear or over heat go more aggressive from their. Be warned, the more aggressive track pads yo use, the more they squeal on the street. Also upgrade brake fluid to something like Motul RBF600 or ATE super blue, both cheap and easy to come by.

your calipers will be fine for a long time until you really start putting real heat into them.

often times stock PSF when it gets hot and boils, will get frothy and bubbly, that's likely what you noticed...but it doesn't hurt to check per Steve's recommendation.

and stop braking mid corner, you're developing bad habits :D

I'll check my fluids this weekend for color, but I'll likely ditch the stock cooler/hose and get a larger one mounted on the front.

Mitch- I understand what you are saying, but I suppose I run the risk at all times. It really isn't the fiscal advantage, so much as the car is predominantly a street cruiser, and I don't want the super heavy feel associated with a Turn One pump. I already have a smaller steering wheel that makes parking lot maneuvers tricky as it is. Perhaps I'll look into it when I stop being a pansy. I don't imagine the extra cooler and better fluid not being sufficient for my driving style.

Ronson- I blame video games! Braking late always worked for passing, and it stuck! But seriously, much of it is my difficulty in downshifting and heel-toeing into the correct gear for the turn. I started to get the hang of it towards the end on my second run (I actually called it quits after my second run as I was worried about my car's ability to make the almost 200 mile trip home).

Again, thanks guys for the tips. I got alot of work to do before the next time I take this car out on the track.

It does sound like brake fluid may be your issue. I found that the HPS pad did fine on a lower speed coarse but sucked on a higher speed one. The HP+ did a lot better but I plan to go to a dedicated pad for track days and back to ceramics for street use.

I say to address the problems as you find them. I have the factory steering cooler and have not had any problems aside from that cap leaking thing.

Mitch has great advice but remember that he is talking from a race car perspective. You may want to move the car farther in that direction or not.

Isn't this stuff fun!!! Good luck.

Do you really even need power steering? If you get rid of it, one less thing to go wrong, right? I can't imagine you ever go slow enough to need it.

The cooling system operates at 20psi or less. The PS system is more than that ... quite a bit more.

So unless there is a catastrophic failure in the heat exchanger inside the housing, fluid is only going to go one direction ... high psi to low.

True, but isn't the cooler on the low pressure side of the power steering system? Granted, I don't know what low pressure really means in that application, but low enough that standard spring clamps are all that's required.

Pressure enough to send a reasonable stream into the reservoir.

But your point is certainly valid.

ive had a turn one for about a year, and its definitely not a 'super heavy' feeling. my car is a track/weekend toy, so she barely gets 1000 miles a year, and even with that limited driving, i dont notice a difference in steering after the swap. if you still drive yours daily or close to it, youll never notice the difference after just a few days. i wouldnt bother with any kind of PS cooler. just get the turn one, use good fluid (i used royal purple) and youll be done with it.

my stock pump used to whine so loud i could hear it over my exhaust, which was headers, catted Y, and the original loudmouth. in other words, the whine was ridiculous. the new pump fixed that, and i havent had any problems since.

unless you feel like tinkering with it yourself, or can get some for extremely cheap, dont bother with brake ducts. you certainly dont need them for a few track days a year. proper pads/rotors, saved only for track, will be more then enough. 00 trans ram raced his TA in whatever series he was in, on stock LS1 brakes and no ducts. all he had were full race pads, and he had no fade or glaze.

if you do any motor work, or happen to drop the k member for any reason, install an oil pan baffle and you wont have to worry about adding another quart ever again.

I'll talk to some people who have used the PSC pump and consider that as well. I'll add it to my list of summer projects.

And the K-member will likely be off this summer for replacement, but I don't think I'll be adding the baffle. I'll talk to my mechanic about it. I think adding a quart per oil change will be cheaper, and be better for cooling in the long run anyway.

i go against the grain on the PS pump...i like the lifetime warranty on my autozone ac delco pump. did the same on my corvette and been running Gibbs PSF in both since they were changed, have yet to have an issue. The corvette has a lot of track miles on it since the change too..

when you're still learning, don't fret on running hard and pushing harder. stay on track and focus on your lines and shifts, just brake sooner and softer and all your equipment will be happy :)

It's just too fun to push the heck out of the car. I'm hoping I got it all out of my system, so I can focus on honing my downshifting skills.

And the K-member will likely be off this summer for replacement, but I don't think I'll be adding the baffle. I'll talk to my mechanic about it. I think adding a quart per oil change will be cheaper, and be better for cooling in the long run anyway.

better for cooling??? this is the first ive ever heard of that. installing a baffle does not make your motor run hotter. you put it in, and forget about it. you also dont keep it overfilled all the time. its supposed to be just for the time at the track, thats it.

better for cooling??? this is the first ive ever heard of that. installing a baffle does not make your motor run hotter. you put it in, and forget about it. you also dont keep it overfilled all the time. its supposed to be just for the time at the track, thats it.

I think you missed my point. I was under the assumption that more oil would dissipate heat better. Baffle has nothing to do with it. Maybe I'm wrong

You are not wrong. More capacity will absorb more heat.

The other side of that coin is once that capacity is heat soaked, it takes more heat exchanger effort to cool it.

I installed (on an LT1) an over-sized, aluminum PS tank. Capacity and heat transfer without a weight penalty.

It's just too fun to push the heck out of the car. I'm hoping I got it all out of my system, so I can focus on honing my downshifting skills.

I still have problems with downshifting. I think I am getting the heal and toe thing on the street but then it all goes out the window on the track. I really need to work on that next time out. Still, this is the most fun I have with my car.

Best way to get the heal toe down, is by doing it everyday you drive the car on every down shift..

Curious what track you went to since you are downstate?

I ran Carbotech XP8's up front and AX6's on my car when I went to the Glen. They held up awesome, I'd highly recommend that setup. I use HPS's as my street pads so I know what the difference feels like. Definitly get better brake fluid like everyone else said.

Also it sounds like you were lucky with the powersteering situation. I actually blew up my powersteering pump right at the end of my second day. I've got a Turn One now but it may be wise to do both a Turn One and an aftermarket cooler.

I suspect you exceeded the limits of the brake pads and fluid. HPS is a street pad. A good intermediate Hawk track pad is the HP Plus. You do not want something with too much bite, it will unsettle the car. Switch to minimum of DOT4 fluid (Motul or Amsoil). If the rotors are glazed, they should clear up by themselves after you bed the new pads.

Have fun!

Curious what track you went to since you are downstate?

I ran Carbotech XP8's up front and AX6's on my car when I went to the Glen. They held up awesome, I'd highly recommend that setup. I use HPS's as my street pads so I know what the difference feels like. Definitly get better brake fluid like everyone else said.

Also it sounds like you were lucky with the powersteering situation. I actually blew up my powersteering pump right at the end of my second day. I've got a Turn One now but it may be wise to do both a Turn One and an aftermarket cooler.

NJ Motorsports Park. My property line is the NY/NJ border, so its not that crazy, like 150 miles south. We ran the short track though. I'd love to go to Watkins Glen. One of these days...

How do you like your Turn One? Any difference in steering feel to report?

NJ Motorsports Park. My property line is the NY/NJ border, so its not that crazy, like 150 miles south. We ran the short track though. I'd love to go to Watkins Glen. One of these days...

How do you like your Turn One? Any difference in steering feel to report?

Yeah you should definitely try the glen out. If you've never been to the finger lakes region it would be a fun time.

I like the Turn One and you can barely tell the difference in my opinion. It does get pretty warm though so that's why I mentioned the cooler in addition to it.

Let me say once again, the TO pump is great. I am running one right now on my race car and had one on my old LS street car. I had no issues.

The TO pump will cost you close to $300.

Since I purchased my TO pump, we discovered Power Steering Components ( http://www.pscmotorsports.com/ ), a company who specializes in PS systems for race trucks, off-road racing trucks, rock crawlers and monster trucks.

They are local to me so they were contacted. We explained what we were after and Kevin at PSC was familiar with TO and said that he would rebuild and revalve our pumps for ~$100. They typically have a 24hr turn-around.

The only thing we've noticed is that the PSC pump seems to be a tiny bit louder than teh TO pump.

We've got 1/2 dozen of them in race cars with out a complaint.

Thanks Shockwave and Mitch- If I do decide to replace the pump, I'll likely just have PSC do it. It is my understanding that they actually improved on the TO design.

Since I have everyone's attention, how important is a oil temp gauge in the list of track day prep mods?

Since I have everyone's attention, how important is a oil temp gauge in the list of track day prep mods?

Are you going to pull off or slow down if the temp gets too high?

While working in Lou Gigliotti's shop building his Trans AM and World challenge Vettes, I kept noticing that he had very few gauges in the car.

I asked him about it and his response was profound. "You think I'm going to stop or pull over if the car overheats?"

Its a legit question.

Put ducts on the car. Go pepared.

Put a pump and a cooler on the car, go prepared.

The little bit of money you spend on those items will pay big dividends in the level of enjoyment you get out of expensive track days.

Why most guys seem to be proud to "slide by" not needing this or that.....I don't get it.

I spent a lot of money to be at the track day, I will not baby the car to "get by", if you really want to get into doing this, you gonna spend a few bucks.

The noise from the PSC pumps is likely due to them dropping the flow below what TO will do. PSC is dropping the flow of the pump way down for RR use (per mine and Mitch's request) to help w/ the feel and feedback thru the wheel. THE OEM pumps at 3K rpms to 6K rpms flows way too much fluid/pressure relative to what you need. This builds tons of heat and poor feedback. Its great for idleing around a parking lot, it sucks for racing/tracking your car.

Why most guys seem to be proud to "slide by" not needing this or that.....I don't get it.


We "slid by" for over ten years on our street cars and then on to our race cars without ducts.
And trust me, we didn't pussy foot around by any stretch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdGrYXUs7C0

That's my old street car being chased by a good friend.


It doesn't hurt to have them. But it certainly isn't high on a list of things you "need".

Mitch, you have great knowledge and experience. You will end up with this stuff anyway if you make 3-4 HPDE events a year....and you will. So why not go ahead and tell them?

There are posts all over including mine on my 1st HPDE with a burned up power steering pump and over taxed brakes.

Not everyone drives like you or your buddies or the same tracks you run.

So why not just tell the newbs, save them the brain damage of driving to a $450 two day event and have them running around town between sessions buying brake rotors and power steering pumps.

They could have had that stuff done before they left home with.ducts and a cooler. Had way more fun and enjoyed the event.

Brother, everyone has been dancing around what we've seen time and again.

Your brake problems were you ... not the hardware. You just don't have to crawl all over the brakes to go fast.

I don't say that to start a bunch of drama or make you feel bad. Your experience and sharing that experience has been an awesome lesson for me. Almost all of us have been EXACTLY where you are today.

My epiphony on this concept was trying my best to keep up with a mini Cooper that had 3 passengers.

Anything I could gain on the straights, he was killing me from corner entry to track out. And if you think about it, you are turning on a road course a LOT more than you are going straight.

I saw that he wasn't using his brakes hardly at all (watched his brake lights).

What he was doing was floating the car down into the corner, letting the turning action scrub speed ... not the brakes. He was using throttle to maintain his slip angle. It was difficult concept for me to get my head around ... using the throttle to help slow the car.

Wailing on the brakes and then standing on the gas will never yield you a fast lap. It might feel fast because you are bouncing around the cag, but the timing loop deosn't lie.

Mitch, that's an awful lot of writing to say "he carried a huge amount of momentum"

Momentum is what we all need to learn, until we get a large enough nutsack to turn in where we should carrying the speed that's way faster than your brain likes, we are gonna be hard on parts.

It's called fight or flight, I learned about from a book by Keith Code. I deal with it pretty well, better than most.

But until us newbs on big tracks such as Barber learn, we are gonna cook parts.

So why not tell the ones who ask what they need?

You need brake ducts
PS cooler with synthetic fluid
Race pads on front, hybrid on the rear
1 quart over on oil
+ 5psi air in front tires,+3 in rear to start
Race brake fluid in brakes and clutch.


Do the above list, pay for the event, have a car under you so you can learn. Instead of wishing you did.

Mitch, that's an awful lot of writing to say "he carried a huge amount of momentum"

Momentum is what we all need to learn, until we get a large enough nutsack to turn in where we should carrying the speed that's way faster than your brain likes, we are gonna be hard on parts.

It's called fight or flight, I learned about from a book by Keith Code. I deal with it pretty well, better than most.

But until us newbs on big tracks such as Barber learn, we are gonna cook parts.



Picking up VERY bad habits along the way.

Which brings me 360* ... I can't believe the group you were running with allowed you to wail on your car like that. As an instructor, I'd never do that.

It leaves the customer with a sour taste in his mouth and is grossly unsafe.

Let's just agree to disagree on your "must do" list.

First timer's prep list:

Fresh Fluids
Decent brake fluid
Quality pads
Nut-n-Bolt the car
Chalk the tires and add or remove air accordingly


Bottom line ... I hope readers learn something from a good, honest, drama free debate.

fatboy......in this case the one with the black car. youve done exactly ONE track day, and youre talking like youve been doing it for years, and know precisely what you need. it takes many, many events to really learn just what you NEED and what you WANT. youre looking at this from a drag racers point of view. youre throwing money into the car before and after the very first time youve ever done it. doing that while stab & steer drag racing is one thing, as 99% of drag racing is just spending money. while 95% of road racing is DRIVER, not just money.

ive seen it firsthand. ive passed ricers on a tight, relatively slow course, who have spend tens of thousands on their car. motor swaps, suspensions, brakes (all the wrong kind), big dumb wings and body kits.......and i see how they drive. they have no idea what theyre doing, despite opening their checkbook and puking money into their car. my major parts on the car are: proper brakes, full suspension, and usually decent tires. plus at least 1000lbs on some of the ricers. and i walk right around them -especially in the turns- because they dont know how to drive.

ive passed mostly stock vettes at NJMP lightning, 5th gen camaros with heads/cam/blower, and some lowered GTO with a built motor/blower, putting some 500+ hp down. why, because they were new drivers, and/or didnt know about handling. my mods helped alot, especially brakes and tires; but simply following their line around the track showed why i was passing them.

all that time, i NEVER had brake ducts, other then a homemade job which consisted of nothing but shopvac hose pointed close to the rotor. proper track pads will NOT overheat, unless you purposely ride the brake the entire time. theyre designed to take the heat and function, while any high perf. street or hybrid pad wont.

since youre constantly on frrax and posting there, do a search for 00 trans ram, and see what his brake setup was. he raced professionally, and had nothing more then stock LS1 brakes on full race pads. no ducts whatsoever. you certainly dont 'need' ducts. you need pads. you need fresh, high temp fluid. if you do it often, 4+ times a year, you may need dedicated tires.

blatantly saying +5f/+3r is also completely wrong. EVERY car is different. EVERY suspension setup is different. EVERY track, tire, brake setup, WEATHER CONDITIONS are different......you tune the air for all those variables, each time. what may work one day may not work the next, with everything else seeming equal. race clutch fluid is also not 'needed.' will it hurt? of course not. but its not something that 'needs' to be done before your very first track day. if it could use a flush regardless of the track day, then fine. but its not on the list of musts for a first track day.

An eye opening moment for me was way back in 2001-2002 time frame. I had an instructor riding w/ me (upon my request). My car was 450rwhp/420rwtq, brembo brakes, 315 V700's on all four corners, full LGM suspension front to rear. My instructor kept telling me things to fix or do w/ my driving. I had alot of car underme, but wasn't using it to anywhere mear its full potential. We pulledin and he took me out in his 100% V6 Mustang. I was shocked at what a good driver could do w/ crap tires, crap brakes, crap suspension, and crap power. I thought I needed all those parts to go faster. Don't get me wrong, those part will make the car faster, but only if the driver is capable of it.

The message here - keep things simple for your first few events. Get a good feel for the car and what it is doing that is holding you back. Talk w/ other drivers at the track and see if problems your having are the car, or you.

Get some pads, get some good fluid, instal a cooler on the return of your P/S line (cheap and easy to do). Take care of your brakes and ease into all this. You don't need to be trying to set fast time of the day at any point during your first 5-6 events.
I ran for 5 years w/ the above mentioned car. I finally built a CMC car back in 2004 and started racing in 2005. My first event, I was 5+ seconds off pace. I was severly humbled. It took me the whole season before I was able to run top times. After 5 years of HPDE in alot of car, I figured I was gonna kick ass and take names my first weekend. Didn't happen. For a while I accused everyone of cheating. I couldn't understand how I was getting my ass kicked so bad - hell I knew (or thought I did) everything I needed to know about driving after 5 years in HPDE. I was wrong.

Get out and drive. Listen to folks who have traveled down this path. They ahave made these mistakes before. The path they tell you to take is to help guide you down the path you need to take, and not to let you take the one you want to take.

Mitch, that's an awful lot of writing to say "he carried a huge amount of momentum"

Momentum is what we all need to learn, until we get a large enough nutsack to turn in where we should carrying the speed that's way faster than your brain likes, we are gonna be hard on parts.

It's called fight or flight, I learned about from a book by Keith Code. I deal with it pretty well, better than most.

But until us newbs on big tracks such as Barber learn, we are gonna cook parts.

So why not tell the ones who ask what they need?

You need brake ducts
PS cooler with synthetic fluid
Race pads on front, hybrid on the rear
1 quart over on oil
+ 5psi air in front tires,+3 in rear to start
Race brake fluid in brakes and clutch.


Do the above list, pay for the event, have a car under you so you can learn. Instead of wishing you did.

telling someone tire pressures like that can be deceiving and is wrong. everyone will run a different pressure as everyone drives differently, every track does different things to tires and pressures, everyones alignment and setup will vary causing tires to build more or less heat and wear differently, and every tire has a different sweet spot for pressures, some low others high. And beyond a factory SS/WS6 PS cooler, you really don't need an aftermarket cooler if you run proper fluid levels and a good synthetic fluid. You also don't need brake ducts, just pads that will work at the given temperatures. In race situations I would highly recommend ducts, for HPDE, it is unnecessary. And yes, I've tracked my SS a couple times

Picking up VERY bad habits along the way.

Which brings me 360* ... I can't believe the group you were running with allowed you to wail on your car like that. As an instructor, I'd never do that.

It leaves the customer with a sour taste in his mouth and is grossly unsafe.

Let's just agree to disagree on your "must do" list.

First timer's prep list:

Fresh Fluids
Decent brake fluid
Quality pads
Nut-n-Bolt the car
Chalk the tires and add or remove air accordingly


Bottom line ... I hope readers learn something from a good, honest, drama free debate.

I concur with this. everything else is just a favorable upgrade for future...what if the person doesn't like the experience? they then wasted a lot of $ on ducts a PS cooler, pads that are loud/annoying on the street, etc..

and Mitch, it still amazes me that you guys can run C5/C6 calipers for multiple seasons and I will spread them in 2 weekends on the Corvette :lol:

and Mitch, it still amazes me that you guys can run C5/C6 calipers for multiple seasons and I will spread them in 2 weekends on the Corvette :lol:

I ran 98-02 F-body calipers that I paid $50 for the pair used. They had never been rebuilt since I owned them (and when I got them they looked like they needed it) and I ran them for 6 years w/ one of the fastest and most successful 4th gens in all of CMC. I never ran ducts of any sort (did for one session and they got ripped off). I've always ran XP10/XP8 combo. I've always used $60 each rotors from the local parts store (Wagners?).
I'm sure alot of it is the weight of the car and the max speed attained. Our fastest speeds (for a CMC2 car) are under the 130 mark. Car is always around the 3250lb mark post race w/ driver.

I just upgraded to the C6 caliper on the new CMC2 car I have now. Still on 12" rotors.

and Mitch, it still amazes me that you guys can run C5/C6 calipers for multiple seasons and I will spread them in 2 weekends on the Corvette :lol:

Chris, the problem is YOU ... not the hardware.
:chug:


I was equally amazed that you were spreading them.

I think a good part of the back and forth in this thread is the result of the misunderstanding of adding mods for the purpose of safety/durability, and speed. I understand that much of my woes with my car are the result of my experience level. I concede that. But in the process of getting better, I'd like to know what it is I should do to ensure I have a car to drive home in that is less likely to fail on the track.

Anyways, I learned alot from this thread, but I really think I need to have an instructor in my car my next time out. Heel-toeing and braking early I'll learn, but I'm sure there is more to it than that. Or perhaps I'm just a natural. :lol:

We "slid by" for over ten years on our street cars and then on to our race cars without ducts.
And trust me, we didn't pussy foot around by any stretch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdGrYXUs7C0

That's my old street car being chased by a good friend.


It doesn't hurt to have them. But it certainly isn't high on a list of things you "need".

This video had me hooked to RR and helped me make it through the long winter here in MI without my TA LOL I have it saved on youtube and I was just showing a friend last night how fbodys can handle too! ;) But seriously this vid gave me a lot of inspiration and motivation to get on a road course. Nice to know who was the driver now, thanks! :thumb:

I'm sure alot of it is the weight of the car and the max speed attained. Our fastest speeds (for a CMC2 car) are under the 130 mark. Car is always around the 3250lb mark post race w/ driver.

I just upgraded to the C6 caliper on the new CMC2 car I have now. Still on 12" rotors.

Ahh, I was thinking you guys were faster. I'm touching 160 on a few tracks here in CA with a min weight of 3280

Chris, the problem is YOU ... not the hardware.
:chug:


I was equally amazed that you were spreading them.

No sir, but I do wish that. All T1 Corvette C5/C6 drivers suffered this with varying results, from spreading after 1 race to 1 weekend, to a couple weekends, and I've heard of a few people going almost half a season. This is both a :D and a :banghead: some guys were going through a brand new set of pads after 1 race too. now that's crazy..

thank god they finally allowed us to run BBKs

;) ;) ;)

I think a good part of the back and forth in this thread is the result of the misunderstanding of adding mods for the purpose of safety/durability, and speed. I understand that much of my woes with my car are the result of my experience level. I concede that. But in the process of getting better, I'd like to know what it is I should do to ensure I have a car to drive home in that is less likely to fail on the track.

Anyways, I learned alot from this thread, but I really think I need to have an instructor in my car my next time out. Heel-toeing and braking early I'll learn, but I'm sure there is more to it than that. Or perhaps I'm just a natural. :lol:
Get a good set of pads.. If you now know this is something you want to do and will do more frequently, it may be worth it. Race pads are recommended, but not necessary.

Put good brake fluid in your car. Something along the lines of Motul RBF600 or similar. Good fluid will make a big difference when the brakes get HOT.

Run good oil, make sure your car doesn't overheat and if you feel like your pushing too hard, its OK to back off a bit and work your way back up.. 99% of the reason why people go off and bend their car up is because they are driving over their limit. Its OK to go slower and learn the lines and then build up your speed... Its called a learning CURVE for a reason.

Here are a couple of charts you can use to help you figure out what pads and fluid you might want to get. Remember, 'bigger' is not always better.. getting something in the range that you will be driving in will be better than getting the best more often than not.

Brake pads:
http://www.zenithmotorsports.com/docs/charts/brake_pad_reference.pdf

Brake Fluid:
http://www.zenithmotorsports.com/docs/charts/brake_fluid.pdf

That brake fluid chart is the reason why I use and encourage the use of Castrol SRF.

The wet BP is higher than many of the dry BPs of the competitors. SRF just doesn't absorb water. Install it and forget about it.

Yeah.. SRF is the best on the market.. Period.

The only issue is the price.. Its kinda hard to swallow that much money on brake fluid unless your seriously serious about tracking your car.

I myself run the Motul RBF600.. I will likely eventually step up to SRF, but it wont be until I am dedicated to tracking the car a minimum of 8-10 times a year.

Ahh, I was thinking you guys were faster. I'm touching 160 on a few tracks here in CA with a min weight of 3280



No sir, but I do wish that. All T1 Corvette C5/C6 drivers suffered this with varying results, from spreading after 1 race to 1 weekend, to a couple weekends, and I've heard of a few people going almost half a season. This is both a :D and a :banghead: some guys were going through a brand new set of pads after 1 race too. now that's crazy..

thank god they finally allowed us to run BBKs

We are only making 230-260 rwhp.

We are only making 230-260 rwhp.
Yeah, and you guys still turn impressive times even on the bigger power tracks too!

Yeah.. SRF is the best on the market.. Period.

The only issue is the price.. Its kinda hard to swallow that much money on brake fluid unless your seriously serious about tracking your car.

I myself run the Motul RBF600.. I will likely eventually step up to SRF, but it wont be until I am dedicated to tracking the car a minimum of 8-10 times a year.

I ran Motul 5.1 for several years. Very good fluid. Never had a fluid related issue. But it would bleed out out a murky, green goo after a track weekend.

But keep track of how much $$ you spend on fluid because you have to bleed the brakes. You can factor in the time and mess it creates if you like.

If you track your car 3 or 4 time a year, moving to SRF will pay for itself in a year or maybe a little more.

I'm not exagerating when I say I install it and never bleed the system. I crack the bleeder when I'm compressing pistons for a pad change which is maybe twice a season, but that is it.

Bleeding brakes is one less thing to prep for the car prior to a weekend.

The price is staggering ... agree on that. And we joke about it all the time. But we still use it.

It's in my CTS-V and my F250 PSD.

I got those tire recommendations from FRAXX, they worked PERFECT for my car on 275/40's on all 4 corners. 38 in front 35 in rear was great!

I agree I have alot to learn, my point is this.

Most guys that START HPDE deals are GREEN, they are gonna overtax parts. THIS is the reason I stated those things. The OP has the same issues I had, so why do you seasoned guys keep harping that newbs dont need this or that?

Until we do learn we do need a PS cooler, PS pump, and AT LEAST brake ducts.

BTW, I am not as "green" as you guys think, I handle speed pretty well. I had fast bikes, drug the pegs and bodywork on my Busa at Deals Gap, rode it to a GPS verified 186 MPH, my 94 Z28 ran 125 mph 1/4 miles, the Busa ran the 1/4 at 138 MPH.

So I'm not SO green, My biggest hurdle as is with most new guys, as it was on the Busa is dealing with turn in speed and KNOWING what the is ahead and what the car is going to do. At Barber turn one is BLIND as is between 12-13 up hill is blind.

Turns 1 and 5 are the biggest brake killers at Barber, I was being taught NO BRAKES from turns 11-14a, brake for 11 and thats it.

Brake zones per my instructor at Barber were:

1,2(tap),5,7,11,14a(tap)

I dont understand why you experienced guys dont send the newbs to the track OVER prepared. IMO, better to have it and not need it rather than need it and not have it.

EDIT, Echo, this is my second HPDE, the first was in a rental Cobalt(a forkin BLAST) I have ridden MANY times in the right seat in buddies(3) BMW race cars. Amazing what you can learn from riding and paying attention.

Thanks for all the input guys, trying to get the car ready for the next one.

Is the OP on the same tires as you? I run my Corvette on Hoosiers at 28 hot where as one of my competitors wants the tires at about 35 hot. On R888's I wanted 32 hot. The NT01s on my Camaro I ran 35 hot front 33 rear. See what I'm getting at?

best flat washer anyone?

Is the OP on the same tires as you? I run my Corvette on Hoosiers at 28 hot where as one of my competitors wants the tires at about 35 hot. On R888's I wanted 32 hot. The NT01s on my Camaro I ran 35 hot front 33 rear. See what I'm getting at?

best flat washer anyone?


I should have stated I am on cheapo MAXXIS 275/40's They do pretty good for $100 a pop, treadwear is 300.

Seeing as us newbs are green I assumed we would all be on street tires.

I have been told MANY times by my buddies with the BMW M3 racecars to stay on street tires for a long while as they will give you warning if you are over driving them.

The edge of my tires didnt touch the little arrow on the corner of the tread.

i agree with your friend on staying with street tires, but again, there are a lot of variations of street tires people drive on and variables between cars and drivers. There is no "perfect" tire pressure contrary to what some people tell you (including the tire manufacturers themselves ;) ). Thus, tire pressure blanket statements should be used as a reference point, not as bible..

i agree with your friend on staying with street tires, but again, there are a lot of variations of street tires people drive on and variables between cars and drivers. There is no "perfect" tire pressure contrary to what some people tell you (including the tire manufacturers themselves ;) ). Thus, tire pressure blanket statements should be used as a reference point, not as bible..

So its not based on vehicle weight? What other factors are there to consider?

So its not based on vehicle weight? What other factors are there to consider?

When it comes to road courses, not completely no.

Things to consider:
-tires have there own spring rate (similar to your suspension springs) based on sidewall stiffness and rubber compound
-cars of the same weight can have drastically different cross weights and different camber/caster causing different wear and likewise will build tire pressures differently
-track surface temperature and outside air temp

and then as I mentioned before: every different tire has it's own sweet spot for every driver. Only the driver can be the judge; is the car over steering, under steering, etc..

Let's just say Hoosier Tire and I do not agree on tire pressures (hot and cold) with my Corvette. Likewise I've ran tire pressure similar to a Panoz GT2 (in this situation we were similar weight) car that worked for him, but were not even close to working for me. I could immediately tell the difference in just the first race lap and it got progressively worse

I'd be willing to bet that 90% of novice drivers who think they need to buy new mods to make the car do something different, really just need to learn there tire pressures and how they can affect what the car does

Great thread. It's tough to tell a gear head not to modify his car when so much of the enjoyment comes from the tech aspect of motorsports. That being said, there is plenty of great advice dripping out of this thread about looking at the big picture on how to go faster and enjoy it more. Skill and experience along with a well thought out mods make all the difference. Tires have always been a contentous debate. The real reason I moved to dedicated track tires was because I was tired of gobbling up $1200 a year in street tires taking my car to 3 ot 4 track weekends a year. As soon as I was ready, (and I asked for lot's of advice first from my advanced buddies and instructors if I was ready) I started to pick up some R comp scrubs for about $400 a set. One thing for sure is that I was glad I spent a couple years on street tires because R compounds are a game changer.

So its not based on vehicle weight? What other factors are there to consider?
Let me try to help a bit here.

Track surface, car weight, cross weight, brake bias, track temp, tire compound and drivers skill/style all come into play.

I went to Buttonwillow raceway yesterday and after I learned the lines and started getting faster and faster, I quickly noticed that while my front tires were dialed in pretty well and were offering up loads of grip, the rear tires were overinflated and slipping pretty badly and needed to be deflated a bit.

I was running the exact same pressures that I run at Willow Springs big track, but because Buttonwillow is a lot tighter and more technical, and the surface is patched quite a bit in spots, its a bit more slippery. The Offramp especially was bad. I would brake hard, hit the apex and get back on the gas only to have the rear end step out on me.

Once I dropped the rears down a total of 7 hot PSI, it was a whole different ballgame and corner exit felt much more balanced and controlled.. I was able to get on the gas a tad sooner and harder which means my corner exit speeds were increased and my laptimes decreased.

Now I know what tire pressures to run at Buttonwillow, and will use that information as a baseline. It does not necessarily mean that I will run that pressure, but it gives me a good starting point for when I go back.

Even at Willow Springs big track, I am constantly adjusting pressures throughout the day to get it dialed in. I know where to start now and I adjust as I go. Checking tire pressures and temps.

All great info, but I doubt I am anywhere near the point where a few psi differences would make a noticeable difference. Still very interesting stuff though. :cheers:

You might be quite surprised. Take a tire pressure gauge with you next time and if you feel the front start to push a bit or the rear start to walk out on you, adjust accordingly.

Remember hot pressures are a lot different than cold. With my NT-01's I can hit the track with a cold temp of 35psi and come off the track (after a cool down lap) with my pressures in the 40-45psi range.. That makes a BIG difference!

I notice it on the streets for sure. I have Falken Azenis 615s and despite having very stiff sidewalls, the car doesn't turn-in as predictably if the tire pressures fall below 35psi hot. I bumped up my tires to 38 hot before the HPDE. Although I can tell the difference in turn-in, I don't think changing the tire pressures would affect lap times just yet. Hopefully when I get better.

I have to say though, those Falkens grip like mad when they warm up. I can't imagine what stickier tires feel like. You guys seriously have some balls to push your cars as hard as you do.

A lot of us are on tires that dont really fall off in terms of grip when the tires get hot like your Falkens eventually will.. NT-01's and Toyo RA-1's wont heat cycle out like a street tire will and will offer better grip longer, which will allow you to go faster.

I notice it on the streets for sure. I have Falken Azenis 615s and despite having very stiff sidewalls, the car doesn't turn-in as predictably if the tire pressures fall below 35psi hot. I bumped up my tires to 38 hot before the HPDE. Although I can tell the difference in turn-in, I don't think changing the tire pressures would affect lap times just yet. Hopefully when I get better.

I have to say though, those Falkens grip like mad when they warm up. I can't imagine what stickier tires feel like. You guys seriously have some balls to push your cars as hard as you do.

typically it works the other way around, if you are struggling to get the car to turn in (the front end wont turn..understeer), you drop a couple pounds of front pressure. If you have a lot of tread on good tires and your rear end starts coming out a lot in corners, drop pressures.

Sik- It isn't so much that the car doesn't turn in, but rather it feels unpredictable like you could feel the sidewall flexing. That's when I pump up the tires. I never thought to drop the tire pressures to avoid understeer, I usually just take that to be me taking the turn to fast for the car's grip.

SVThuh- I haven't reached that point, but I hear these Falkens get greasy after getting too hot on a heavier car like ours. I see what you are saying though. Interesting stuff. Do you, personally, run those dot-r's on the street?

Since the topic sort of turned towards tire temp/pressure, I seem to have encountered conflicting opinions on how to set the pressures. Books seem to indicate to use a pyrometer to get the temps linear/even across the surface. Others with experience have said they've done better adjusting the pressures effectively by the seat of their pants.

While I prefer the ease of using a probe pyrometer, is there more to it than blindly trusting the pyrometer? My current process is to park the car absolutely as soon as safely possible, note in/ctr/out temps on all tires, then take pressure readings in the same order. I try to adjust center temps by using the rough formula 1psi=3*. Although I think I should be beginning on a specific tire based upon track design, I usually forget to do it.

I use a pyrometer, but only to get an idea of how hot the different portions of the tire are. I may use that info to adjust pressure, but generally will use the info to get an idea of how hard I am on the tires and then adjust my driving style accordingly.

The tires will cool off WAY too much to get a good idea of running temps after the cooldown lap. Even 2 minutes at a cooldown pace (60% or so of lapping pace), the temps can fall off as much as 30*. Running your car hard, getting everything up to temp and then just shutting down and stopping to check temps is a good way to break stuff.