Conversions & Hybrids - steering shaft fab/header proximity Q




brian g
04-24-2011, 02:51 AM
Ok, Ive been trying to get a stock set of headers to fit in my supra and I've modified the steering shaft and dropped the X member 1.5".

The problem is that the double U-joint that I've mocked up into the steering shaft is going to be about 1/4" away from the stock CTS-V exhaust header, I'm told that at this proximity the bearings will be relived of their grease and basically die a horrible death. The double joint is a nice beefy stainless steel unit that puts the stockers to shame.
Also, I'm using prothane (SP?) poly motor mounts to to reduce engine movement.

1, is that true? Even with the stock exhaust header heat shield??

2,the steering shaft, consisting of 2 U-joints and a double U-joint in the middle with two heim bearings to keep everything lined up and not floppy around-will be very close to both the header and the frame/will be mounted in two places....Am I asking for trouble, or is this doable? The angles will be WNL factory tolerance for the U-joints.

3, this car will be a daily, including mountain, coastal, desert driving..

I don't think playing with the steering column at the fire wall will help.

I'm about to give up on using stock headers-sorry Cali/C.A.R.B people, and just attempt to fab some long tube headers.

TIA to those that have input.


gofastwclass
04-24-2011, 07:44 AM
I've seen people run the shaft close to the headers without issue but the few I've heard about with the joint close had issues at some point. Do you mean 1/4" like thinner than a mobile phone close? That is REALLY close, I wouldn't chance it.

Sounds like custom headers are in order for you. Good luck!

brian g
04-24-2011, 02:40 PM
Thanks go fast, I figured that was the final route for this project!
I've just been in denial about it from day one! I'm too stubborn to admit defeat, even after about a year of moving the engine around and cutting and re welding the X-member and using a multitude of engine and steering shaft angles.....I was really trying for a California smog legal setup, oh well.
Now I need to get a good source for header bits.
Thanks again.


Tongboy
04-24-2011, 03:45 PM
My long tubes are about a 1/4" from my headers, as long as you don't have a weird rag joint or rubber joint in there you should be fine.

whitesn95
04-24-2011, 03:55 PM
just curious, whats goin on here? lsx in a supra? if so what year?? cuz im really thinkin of doin a mk 3 supra next but dunno what all is out there for that swap

mikezohsix
04-24-2011, 07:02 PM
I milled my manifold at an angle to pull the exhaust closer to the engine center line. I had a real problem with my car and also added a header flange milled at an angle for more room. Pulled it in .75, still plenty of room by the oil filter. I have an extra milled flange that I'd sell, won't be cheap, I paid dearly for the machine work. You could bolt it in under your stock manifold. PM me and if you give me some dimensions I'll run the numbers for you.

gofastwclass
04-25-2011, 12:51 AM
I've just been in denial about it from day one! I'm too stubborn to admit defeat...
Thanks again.

Not a problem. Trust me, I've been there. :(


My long tubes are about a 1/4" from my headers, as long as you don't have a weird rag joint or rubber joint in there you should be fine.

Aren't you repeating yourself? I think you're meaning to say the steering shaft? That's OK, it just can't be the rag joint or in this case steering joint(s). The shaft itself won't have an issue with heat.

71ANTICARB
04-25-2011, 02:02 AM
What if you use some header wrap. Maybe double wrap it near the joint. (and still use the factory heat shield.

Tongboy
04-25-2011, 03:31 AM
Aren't you repeating yourself? I think you're meaning to say the steering shaft? That's OK, it just can't be the rag joint or in this case steering joint(s). The shaft itself won't have an issue with heat.

haha, yes, you're correct.

I have a rubber cover over the slip part of my shaft that is also very near the headers and is unwrapped and the headers are uncoated and it hasn't been an issue. the only heat issue I've had was before I relocated my brake lines I had some actually resting on the headers and those were obviously having heat problems.

the aftermarket steering joints can take some heat but most stock ones don't like laying right next to headers - the fun of the straight 6 cars is that the steering joints usually never saw any heat - the headers were on the other side of the bay entirely and it was never a design constraint to deal with header heat.

brian g
04-25-2011, 11:41 PM
Q from whitesn95
just curious, whats goin on here? lsx in a supra? if so what year?? cuz im really thinkin of doin a mk 3 supra next but dunno what all is out there for that swap

Reply:
I'm swapping a 2001 LS! T56 into a nice 1983 Celica Supra,you might ask mikezohsix about an MK3 swap.

Pic of said MK2

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/drgnflys/suprajuly12007.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/drgnflys/suprawcenterlinesjan2005002.jpg

mikezohsix, I'll send a PM regarding the milled flange, I've researched this option before-but disregarded it because I was concerned the header bolts would be stressed.

response:
What if you use some header wrap. Maybe double wrap it near the joint. (and still use the factory heat shield.
Answer:
I was thinking of an aluminum/reflective wrap and maybe a coating for the header.

I was in the "man cave" and did something I promised I wouldn't!!!!!
I moved the engine up about 1.5"!!!!!!!
I started this project with these rules in mind

1, keep the engine behind the sway bar.
2, keep the engine's crank pulley's bottom edge at or below the top of the sway bar.
3, make this a potential 50 state legal swap-using OEM parts for CARB legality.
I'll have to sell the engine as a CTS-V because the CTS-V headers don't have AIR like the Camaro does...

Now I'm just going to ignore rule #2, this new raised location still allows the engine to be behind the sway bar, but now it's above it about 1.5".
This location actually gives me a bit more clearance, It looks like I just needed to pull my head out regarding my rules.

Current location:

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa270/drgnflys/IMG_1725.jpg

I'll stil have to work in two Heim bearings to stabilize the (now four joint)steering shaft, the angle needs a little fine tuning to get it at or below 70 degrees-but it's doable.

mikezohsix
04-26-2011, 05:55 AM
mikezohsix, I'll send a PM regarding the milled flange, I've researched this option before-but disregarded it because I was concerned the header bolts would be stressed.



You need to open up the dia of the holes thru the manifold and the "shim". As I remember two holes are smaller than the rest, and I just opened them up to match the rest. You want the bolts to go straight into the head with no side load, which you can prove out if they run in by hand.

To address the bolt head sitting flat against the manifold you can mill the manifold face where the bolt hits at the right angle, or, what I did is I used spherical washers. It's a two piece washer that is made for just that purpose. I got mine from work, but I'd guess McMaster Carr has them.

Looking at your pictures, it may not help you much because you seem to have an interference at the top, where mine was low. The further from the top of the manifold you are, the more benefit you get.

brian g
04-26-2011, 02:34 PM
Mike, the interference actually starts at the steering rack joint (the exhaust outlet flange is very close to the rack u-joint and 1st few inches of the shaft) than the header itself is very near the 1st few inches of the double u-joint.
I actually raised the engine for the pics above-so the header is a few inches higher than I started with (see rule 2 above).
Thanks for the info!