Urgent help! Broken starter nosing.
05-27-2011, 08:30 PM
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Urgent help! Broken starter nosing. I'm wrapping up some final touches on the 96, as I will be driving (for the first time) in my town's Memorial Day parade.
Anyway, the first crank...no luck. It struggles to turn over (which it's done before) almost like the engine is holding it back. (quick background - nothing has been done to increase compression. The engine is stock internally. The starter did this from day one - which was two years ago. I spent almost two years building the car, so, I've only put maybe 500 miles on it. However, I start it weekly and let it run).
Anyway, the second crank and the starter "free spins". I try again, and the same thing. It's as if the starter gear is not extending to mate with the flywheel. So, I get under the car, yank the starter, and discover the starter nose housing is broken off.
I remove the T-56 inspection plate to see if the broken piece is there, but no luck. I search the ground, the frame, the driveway - nothing. It's a sizable chunk - about 2" across. So, I start looking inside the T-56 bellhousing, but it's so tight, I can't see how it could have gone in there. I used a flashlight with an inspection mirror - nothing. I stuck my fingers in there - nothing. So, I decided to turn over the engine with a breaker bar to listen for noise, which would mean the part fell inside. Nothing. I made a mark on the flywheel so I could inspect the teeth through 360 degrees - all fine.
Is it possible the nosing broke off a while ago, yet, the starter still worked? I've noticed the starter struggled to start the car for the last year, but attributed it to a weak battery. However, I put a new battery in it last month, and it made no difference. Can a starter work with no nosing???
What should I do? I promised my kids I would drive them this year. I missed last year as I was in the Gulf fighting the BP oil spill. I'm going to put a new starter in it (LT1 or LT4??? what's the difference? Part number?) and try it out, but I'm afraid the "chunk" is in the transmission housing.
Please help...I'm at a loss.
Here's a picture:
And here's the pocket where it sits (nothing in there???!!!)
Anyway, the first crank...no luck. It struggles to turn over (which it's done before) almost like the engine is holding it back. (quick background - nothing has been done to increase compression. The engine is stock internally. The starter did this from day one - which was two years ago. I spent almost two years building the car, so, I've only put maybe 500 miles on it. However, I start it weekly and let it run).
Anyway, the second crank and the starter "free spins". I try again, and the same thing. It's as if the starter gear is not extending to mate with the flywheel. So, I get under the car, yank the starter, and discover the starter nose housing is broken off.
I remove the T-56 inspection plate to see if the broken piece is there, but no luck. I search the ground, the frame, the driveway - nothing. It's a sizable chunk - about 2" across. So, I start looking inside the T-56 bellhousing, but it's so tight, I can't see how it could have gone in there. I used a flashlight with an inspection mirror - nothing. I stuck my fingers in there - nothing. So, I decided to turn over the engine with a breaker bar to listen for noise, which would mean the part fell inside. Nothing. I made a mark on the flywheel so I could inspect the teeth through 360 degrees - all fine.
Is it possible the nosing broke off a while ago, yet, the starter still worked? I've noticed the starter struggled to start the car for the last year, but attributed it to a weak battery. However, I put a new battery in it last month, and it made no difference. Can a starter work with no nosing???
What should I do? I promised my kids I would drive them this year. I missed last year as I was in the Gulf fighting the BP oil spill. I'm going to put a new starter in it (LT1 or LT4??? what's the difference? Part number?) and try it out, but I'm afraid the "chunk" is in the transmission housing.
Please help...I'm at a loss.
Here's a picture:
And here's the pocket where it sits (nothing in there???!!!)
05-27-2011, 08:36 PM
#2
thats crazy is there any nicks or anything around the bell housing like the peice get slung around inside or anything?
i had a part number written somewhere but i cant find it. its for a lt1 corvette starter, i guess its a smaller gear reduction and its cheaper than the firebird/camaro one. im sure if you search on here you can the number for it
i had a part number written somewhere but i cant find it. its for a lt1 corvette starter, i guess its a smaller gear reduction and its cheaper than the firebird/camaro one. im sure if you search on here you can the number for it
05-27-2011, 08:44 PM
#3
"Is it possible the nosing broke off a while ago, yet, the starter still worked?" Not very likely. The armature would rub the field. So where is the other bolt and what was attached to it?
Al
Al
05-27-2011, 08:59 PM
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The bolts are not missing, or broken. The only part that broke off id the nosing, which holds/aligns the shaft the gear rides on. What I'm wondering is if the gear can still extend/contract without the end of the nosing. If the shaft extends, wouldn't it hit the bellhousing wall and still mate with the flywheel teeth?
Interestingly, the broken edge does not appear to be new. It looks weathered/oxidized, like it broke some time ago. For comparison sake, I notched the broken edge to prove a point - the "newly" exposed metal was shiny, unlike the broken edge. Granted, it's cast aluminum, but if it just broke, I would expect the edge to have a shine to it. Instead, it appears dirty and oxidized.
Interestingly, the broken edge does not appear to be new. It looks weathered/oxidized, like it broke some time ago. For comparison sake, I notched the broken edge to prove a point - the "newly" exposed metal was shiny, unlike the broken edge. Granted, it's cast aluminum, but if it just broke, I would expect the edge to have a shine to it. Instead, it appears dirty and oxidized.
05-27-2011, 09:39 PM
#6
The bolts are not missing, or broken. The only part that broke off id the nosing, which holds/aligns the shaft the gear rides on. What I'm wondering is if the gear can still extend/contract without the end of the nosing. If the shaft extends, wouldn't it hit the bellhousing wall and still mate with the flywheel teeth?
Al
05-28-2011, 06:28 PM
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Well, after 9 hours, she's back!
I wanted to "pass it on" to the next guy, so here's what I found.
I woke up this morning, and decided to try a new approach. On the opposite side of the bell housing resides the hydraulic slave cylinder. It simply removes with 2 screws, exposing the innards of the bell housing. My thought was to shine a light on the other side, and perhaps I can see if the parts were inside.
Well, as soon as I removed the cylinder, the starter parts fell out. Yup - all of the missing pieces. Luckily, the steel bearing was still in the aluminum housing, so I lucked out. I was able to piece together the broken starter housing and discovered I had every piece accounted for. I still can't determine when it came apart, but luckily, they all fell to the lowest part of the housing, which (at least on a LT1 T-56 is the slave cylinder housing, behind the clutch fork). They may have wound up there because I jacked up the passenger side of the car. The extreme angle may have unknowingly caused the parts to shift, but I can't say for sure.
So, I decided to replace the starter with the "improved" LT4 unit, used in the Corvettes (at least all of the LT1 years) from Autozone - the Duralast reman. unit with the lifetime warranty $118. Not only is able to handle higher compression engines, but it's more robust, and even costs less. The shaft is not captive like on the LT1 starters, so there is no risk of breaking off the housing. The only problem for me - the headers would not allow it to go in the way the longer, slimmer LT1 starter came out. Long story short - I had to remove the Y-pipe to get the starter in. But, it fired right up with no issues after that. No shims were necessary.
So - lessons learned (for the next guy)... this applies to a 96 LT1 with a T-56 and mid-length headers.
1) If you can't find the broken starter housing pieces try this - after you remove the inspection cover, shine a light inside to see if there's anything "obvious" floating around. Next, grab a large breaker bar and manually turn over the engine using the bolt on the end of the crankshaft. Make a mark on the flywheel/flexplate and observe (and listen) for one complete revolution (clockwise, of course). If you do not hear anything hitting, make another revolution, this time looking at the teeth on the flywheel/flexplate. Look for anything "unusual" like a broken tooth, rounding over, chips, etc. If all looks fine, proceed on.
2) Remove the slave cylinder. If you're lucky, the parts may be there. Shine a light in the opposite side, and you may be able to see the parts better.
3) Use an inspection mirror to see inside better.
4) Use a length of wire with a hook on the end. You may be able to "feel" the shrapnel and push/pull it out.
5) Blow compressed air into the housing. It may push the broken pieces towards an area you can access.
6) Start up the engine and listen for "marbles" clanking around in the bell housing. If you hear anything, my recommendation is to repeat the above, and try again.
7) If none of the above work, and you know for sure something is in there, you're going to have to pull the transmission.
8) The only positive out of all of this - the starter housing is very soft aluminum. Except for the bearing (which is steel) it shouldn't do too much damage as the flywheel is going to chew it up and deposit it on the bottom. I lucked out, and every piece was accounted for. The only thing I couldn't find were the dozen or so needle-bearings. They probably fell out, as the inspection cover is not sealed on the bottom of the housing.
To wrap up - From my research, the LT4/Corvette mini starter (Denso) is far superior to the LT1 starter. It cranks faster, is more robust, draws less, and is cheaper. If you have headers - be forewarned. The starter may not fit without removing the Y-pipe. I have AS&M/RK Sport mid-length headers into a single cat set up. I used a Y-pipe from a single cat car (93 - 95) on my 96 as I run a single, large bore cat. The starter fits, but the Y-pipe needs to come out first. I wrapped heat shield around the starter for good measure, but it's far enough away from the header as to not be too much of a risk.
Good Luck fellow F-body fans!
I wanted to "pass it on" to the next guy, so here's what I found.
I woke up this morning, and decided to try a new approach. On the opposite side of the bell housing resides the hydraulic slave cylinder. It simply removes with 2 screws, exposing the innards of the bell housing. My thought was to shine a light on the other side, and perhaps I can see if the parts were inside.
Well, as soon as I removed the cylinder, the starter parts fell out. Yup - all of the missing pieces. Luckily, the steel bearing was still in the aluminum housing, so I lucked out. I was able to piece together the broken starter housing and discovered I had every piece accounted for. I still can't determine when it came apart, but luckily, they all fell to the lowest part of the housing, which (at least on a LT1 T-56 is the slave cylinder housing, behind the clutch fork). They may have wound up there because I jacked up the passenger side of the car. The extreme angle may have unknowingly caused the parts to shift, but I can't say for sure.
So, I decided to replace the starter with the "improved" LT4 unit, used in the Corvettes (at least all of the LT1 years) from Autozone - the Duralast reman. unit with the lifetime warranty $118. Not only is able to handle higher compression engines, but it's more robust, and even costs less. The shaft is not captive like on the LT1 starters, so there is no risk of breaking off the housing. The only problem for me - the headers would not allow it to go in the way the longer, slimmer LT1 starter came out. Long story short - I had to remove the Y-pipe to get the starter in. But, it fired right up with no issues after that. No shims were necessary.
So - lessons learned (for the next guy)... this applies to a 96 LT1 with a T-56 and mid-length headers.
1) If you can't find the broken starter housing pieces try this - after you remove the inspection cover, shine a light inside to see if there's anything "obvious" floating around. Next, grab a large breaker bar and manually turn over the engine using the bolt on the end of the crankshaft. Make a mark on the flywheel/flexplate and observe (and listen) for one complete revolution (clockwise, of course). If you do not hear anything hitting, make another revolution, this time looking at the teeth on the flywheel/flexplate. Look for anything "unusual" like a broken tooth, rounding over, chips, etc. If all looks fine, proceed on.
2) Remove the slave cylinder. If you're lucky, the parts may be there. Shine a light in the opposite side, and you may be able to see the parts better.
3) Use an inspection mirror to see inside better.
4) Use a length of wire with a hook on the end. You may be able to "feel" the shrapnel and push/pull it out.
5) Blow compressed air into the housing. It may push the broken pieces towards an area you can access.
6) Start up the engine and listen for "marbles" clanking around in the bell housing. If you hear anything, my recommendation is to repeat the above, and try again.
7) If none of the above work, and you know for sure something is in there, you're going to have to pull the transmission.
8) The only positive out of all of this - the starter housing is very soft aluminum. Except for the bearing (which is steel) it shouldn't do too much damage as the flywheel is going to chew it up and deposit it on the bottom. I lucked out, and every piece was accounted for. The only thing I couldn't find were the dozen or so needle-bearings. They probably fell out, as the inspection cover is not sealed on the bottom of the housing.
To wrap up - From my research, the LT4/Corvette mini starter (Denso) is far superior to the LT1 starter. It cranks faster, is more robust, draws less, and is cheaper. If you have headers - be forewarned. The starter may not fit without removing the Y-pipe. I have AS&M/RK Sport mid-length headers into a single cat set up. I used a Y-pipe from a single cat car (93 - 95) on my 96 as I run a single, large bore cat. The starter fits, but the Y-pipe needs to come out first. I wrapped heat shield around the starter for good measure, but it's far enough away from the header as to not be too much of a risk.
Good Luck fellow F-body fans!
