Generation III Internal Engine - N/A..what motor to assure me 10's w/stock weight?




mike#9
02-25-2004, 01:42 PM
I want to go 10's with stock weight. What motor N/A would you recommend?

I was thinking a 408 ironblock or something similar. I want to be able to spray it as well...

I will be working with a budget so who has good prices...but will put the the potential in the car to do it.

I was thinking Futral...cuz they are the closest place that I could do a big name install with...and because they have a good rep. for putting up the power and ET's.

Let me know. I have Absolute Speed stage 2 5.3's, 230/236 cam, Yella Terras, 977 springs, Comp R lifters, All the suspension stuff/chasis stuff as well, 12 bolt w/4.11's and every upgrade.

Rest of the mods are in the sig.

The car Dyno'd 415 hp, and 386 tq


11 Bravo
02-25-2004, 02:04 PM
If you are going to keep those heads then I would go with a 383 stroker.

JZ'sTA
02-25-2004, 02:17 PM
IMOP you can achieve this without the added cube's. You just have to have the car setup correctly with the right combo and be a good driver.
At the same time to be 100% you will run 10's then here is what I would suggest.
I am going to make my suggestion's based on a budget. You said you had a budget but didn't say what it was.
AP 408 short block using the Eagle stroker kit. Very cheap under 4000 I believe.
I would do either 11.7 C/R pistons and use a 6.0 Liter head which would make it around 11.2, or I would use 10.7 C/R pistons with a LS6 head which should give you similar compression. (If you had the money do the LS6)
This means that you would sell the 5.3's. I personally love AS heads and would do the stage 3 6.0 or LS6 heads from them.
Next would be the cam. Because you will have bigger cubic inches a bigger cam is more driveable. 240+ duration and 610+ lift would be a good combo that you could still take on the street every now and then. If you are running juice I would probally go with a 113 LSA, without the juice in a M6 then a 110-112 would be best.
The headers you have now should work well, but maybe not quite as well as 1 7/8".
A LSX 90mm Intake and 90mm TB wouldn't hurt anything either.
Then you need to get the car TUNED, TUNED, and more TUNED....
However just because you have a great setup dosen't mean you are in the 10's.
You need mad suspension. You will need a Full Slick that can handle a 6000 RMP launch with 500+ ft lbs of torque. You will need everything to get the weight to transfer to the rear. The 12 bolt should be fine, and with 4.10's you will need a cam that makes power up to 6500+ RPS so that you can get through the 1/4 without shifting 5th.
You must beable to drive the car extreemly well.
Futural is a good company, I just haven't seen anyone beat AP Engineering's prices, and their customer service is great as well.
Brian and Chris are the 2 that seem to run the place.
Good luck on your quest.
Let us know what you decide to do.


JZ'sTA
02-25-2004, 02:19 PM
I also agree with 11 Bravo. Those heads are maxed out with 382 CI's. And wouldn't go any bigger without going to a different head.

11 Bravo
02-25-2004, 03:30 PM
Yeah, AP does have a good deal on the 408 but like was stated, you would need bigger heads plus you have the extra weight of an iron block. Shoot, get a Lunati rotating assembly and bigger cam, find someone to put it in and tune and get some slicks and spray the hell out of it. Kinda wish I had done that instead.

DONAIMIAN
02-25-2004, 03:51 PM
David Coates Ran an 10.8 if im not mistaken on a set of slicks and a 10 bolt/3.73 with MTI heads and cam and a 100 shot. That being his only run due to no cage, so im sure its plenty more ET left in it. This was also done on a stock bottom end being pushed to 555RWHP on the bottle.

SSactionLs1
02-25-2004, 04:04 PM
well whats the average person need for 10's? 500whp NA?...any stroker can do that, and a VERY aggressive heads/cam setup for 346

mike#9
02-25-2004, 04:30 PM
The extra weight of the ironblock is not a big deal. Instead of going with the 382..I can go with the ironblock...which with the extra cubes should off-set the weight by making more HP.

How are the eagle cranks holding up??

Ron@Vengeance
02-25-2004, 05:48 PM
See sig :D

Damian
02-25-2004, 05:56 PM
See sig :D

Uhhh, looks like STOCK WEIGHT in that title to me :suspiciou

Not one seat, bumper supports removed, and drag wheels :drive: :jest:

Mike K.
02-25-2004, 05:57 PM
AP also has some Callies Cranks available or they may have some left if you call them. They are building my a 408 as well :). The Eagle cranks have not been out long enough to determine how strong they are but they will need extra care take to the balance/clearance issues.

Do you guys think a 408 can do 10's easily? Or is it something in which you would have to be an awesome driver etc,etc, to do?

Ron@Vengeance
02-25-2004, 06:10 PM
Damian, how would you know how my car is setup @ the track?? You have NEVER been:jest: :drive:


Yea, front bumper support is 18lbs, seat is 32lbs and drag wheels should be on ANYTHING goin 10s. My raceweight is 3410lbs with my 195lb ass in it... I could add the 100 lbs back it to and still run high 10.90s... What the hell am I talking to you for, the only thing you race is the dyno :chug: :punch:


Uhhh, looks like STOCK WEIGHT in that title to me :suspiciou

Not one seat, bumper supports removed, and drag wheels :drive: :jest:

Damian
02-25-2004, 06:11 PM
:kiss:

VINCE
02-25-2004, 06:24 PM
AP also has some Callies Cranks available or they may have some left if you call them. They are building my a 408 as well :). The Eagle cranks have not been out long enough to determine how strong they are but they will need extra care take to the balance/clearance issues.

Do you guys think a 408 can do 10's easily? Or is it something in which you would have to be an awesome driver etc,etc, to do?

Mike you cant seem to make up your mind:)

93Polo
02-25-2004, 06:25 PM
:kiss:

You 2 are so sweet :jest:

VINCE
02-25-2004, 06:48 PM
Mike #9 it is going to take 500rwhp plus to run 10's NA with a iron block. Depending on how much you weigh is going to determine what your stock raceweight is. My stock raceweight was over 3750lbs with me in the car. Another weight a 100lbs less than me would see 3650lbs. Futral Motorsports is the place that can build you the monster you seek. Futral is building my 409ci and my setup is being built strictly for the street racing scene:), but still be able to drive across country in comfort if need be. Do I want a 10 sec NA car? Only if it can run those same times on the street, but not on the drag radials I am going to be sporting. So I will settle for low 11's at say 127mph.. :)

Chris99WS6PWTMET
02-25-2004, 08:53 PM
and drag wheels should be on ANYTHING goin 10s.

Damn, now I gotta get rid of my stock 17" WS6 rims and my 275 Nitto DR's. :( :jest:

VINCE
02-25-2004, 09:04 PM
Damn, now I gotta get rid of my stock 17" WS6 rims and my 275 Nitto DR's. :( :jest:


NA???

StupidFast
02-25-2004, 09:21 PM
I just ordered my 408 rotating assembly from AP Engineering, they are supper cool to deal with. They still have Callies cranks. I am hoping for low 11s on some spray, but I have a little fatter vehicle.
Also I ordeded my kit and told them 10.0 compression, I thought this compression was with 6.0 heads not 5.7 heads. Was I wrong?

Chris99WS6PWTMET
02-25-2004, 09:34 PM
NA???

Of course not!! :eek2:

I'd have jumped all over your thread about going to Tampa to bust down that Vette if I was running that NA in a full blown street car. :burn:

H/C, forged internals and TNT 150 shot. I cant get it any lighter without making it more like a race car (seats/drag rims/!bumper supports). It broke my heart having to put the 88 lb roll bar in it.

Ron@Vengeance
02-25-2004, 09:37 PM
You 2 are so sweet :jest:Lamar, thats just Josh getting some practice in. He CLAIMS one day hes actually unstrapping from the dyno and hitting the track. IF, and I mean IF that ever happens he will need to pucker up. Cause he will be kissing my ass GOODBYE all the way down the 1320 :D :D


FWIW in regards to the post. The overall setup of the car is going to matter ALOT more than the motor itself. I run 10s in a 346, as do several others off this board. I also see 427s running mid 11s on here. Set your car up to meet your goals and have fun...

mike#9
02-25-2004, 10:49 PM
Is it going to take a spectacular head to achieve the HP needed....not that I would want anything less!!!

Do you think that BMR LCA's, LCA Brackets, Adj. Panhard Rod, SFC, and a Torque arm enough suspension and chasis parts to plant the power (I will also get some Hals). The Moser 12 bolt should hold up too right?? I have 4.11's with 33 spline axles....barely any miles on it.

What cam would I go with...I want a cam with more lope to it then my current 230/236 112 lsa cam also.

Is Futral and AP the leaders on affordability? Also is there any people out there that have a ironblock from AP..or anybody else that have any track numbers in the 10's NA?

Mike K.
02-25-2004, 11:55 PM
Is it going to take a spectacular head to achieve the HP needed....not that I would want anything less!!!

Do you think that BMR LCA's, LCA Brackets, Adj. Panhard Rod, SFC, and a Torque arm enough suspension and chasis parts to plant the power (I will also get some Hals). The Moser 12 bolt should hold up too right?? I have 4.11's with 33 spline axles....barely any miles on it.

What cam would I go with...I want a cam with more lope to it then my current 230/236 112 lsa cam also.

Is Futral and AP the leaders on affordability? Also is there any people out there that have a ironblock from AP..or anybody else that have any track numbers in the 10's NA?


From the research I did I found that both AP and Futral where comparitively priced and both seem to have good customer service. Call them and see who you like better and go from there. And yes with a 409 you are going to need alot more cam lol althought I am not sure how much bigger.

And Vince you know since I need new heads I may as well go 409, AP swapped my alum block for the iron one so I figure this was the way to go HP wise.

Candy
02-26-2004, 12:09 AM
Mike#9 - Give Allan a call or shoot him an e-mail and he can give you some options and ideas for a sweet setup.

Good luck!

VINCE
02-26-2004, 06:24 AM
Of course not!! :eek2:

I'd have jumped all over your thread about going to Tampa to bust down that Vette if I was running that NA in a full blown street car. :burn:

H/C, forged internals and TNT 150 shot. I cant get it any lighter without making it more like a race car (seats/drag rims/!bumper supports). It broke my heart having to put the 88 lb roll bar in it.

You should have still came and laid the smack down on that Z06.. :)

VINCE
02-26-2004, 06:26 AM
From the research I did I found that both AP and Futral where comparitively priced and both seem to have good customer service. Call them and see who you like better and go from there. And yes with a 409 you are going to need alot more cam lol althought I am not sure how much bigger.

And Vince you know since I need new heads I may as well go 409, AP swapped my alum block for the iron one so I figure this was the way to go HP wise.

I hear you Mike. What heads are you going with? APE 5.7's, 6.0's, 5.3's, LS6's or someone else's heads?

Mike K.
02-26-2004, 09:46 AM
Im going with the AP s2's 6.0 ltr with welded chambers. I may have gone with another companys heads but the whole warantee thing I think would be better if I get everything at the same shop,, especially since I now need a new longblock.

JZ'sTA
02-26-2004, 10:30 AM
Hey Mike #9. Call both companies and see who you fell most comfortable with.

As far as heads go AP does a bunch of short blocks with Absolute speed heads.
It is a great combo. LG motorsports also uses AS heads, and their numbers speak for themselves. As far as running 10's and what else is required, there is alot more.
If you take a motor that makes 500+ hp and throw it in a car you just bought from the dealership, then make a pass in the 1/4 mile. You will probally screw up a ton of stuff from no tuning. Lets just say you had it tuned, you would still probally run 12's.
suspension plays a big role.
I would say that the list you included would be a very good way to go. You already have the 12 bolt out of the way.
As far as a cam goes here is where you would be best off talking to your engine builder. I wouldn't go any less than a 240 duration cam.
Weight will also play a big role in how fast your car is.
Just a example Angie from Thunder ran a 10.8 in a small cam only car. But it weighed 3080 lbs with her in it. There are a few stock ass nasty looking Mustangs around here that run mid 11's and only make 260 horse.
They weight like 2600 lbs. The one guy ran 10.9x with 338 Horse.
You couldn't pay me to drive the car, but different strokes for different folks I guess.
Plus I still beat both of them.
One thing you forgot is Tires and wheels. To cut the 1.3x 60ft's you will need the right combo here as well.

gator's 99TA
02-26-2004, 11:23 AM
angies car has ported heads on it.

mike#9
02-26-2004, 02:54 PM
You guys think that 6.0L heads would be ok....I can save the money over the LS6's! Would they make the power though?

Also...how do you guys feel about a 110 lsa cam...does it have enough range within the powerband to be a good track cam/and street cam. I don't want a peaky cam per se'....but I would like the cam to hit like a motha fu%^er.

Mike K.
02-26-2004, 03:31 PM
I think compression is the issue with the larger motors which is why everybody used the 6 ltr heads. They have the same port design as the ls6 but they won't bump up the compression like the ls6 heads will. 110 lsa will move the power band lower in the curve and you will feel the lope more. Basically and I mean real basic here the lower the lsa the less streetable the car will become but the lower your peak power will be. When you decide who is going to do your engine build up they will recommend a cam for you based on what you want out of it.

JZ'sTA
02-26-2004, 03:35 PM
As I said before the 6.0 heads will be fine, just remember they are a lower compression then the LS1/5.3 or LS6 heads.
The 6 liter and LS6 heads are nearly exactly the same with the difference being the cc's, which is why the compression is different.
When you have the motor built you need to know if you will be using the 6.0 heads or the LS6 heads so you can choose the right piston.

As far as a 110LSA. I believe it would work great.
You said something about using Nitrous in your first post, and this is why I suggested a 112 or a 113 LSA.

mike#9
02-26-2004, 03:47 PM
I have a 230/236 112 lsa cam now....and it hits pretty hard...but if I did a big cube motor, I would like it to hit harder. So by doing a 111 or 110...does that totally rule out nitrous ( or just a lot of NOS)?

Would the car run well on a 110 or 111...or is that over kill. What about cam timing. If I grind in some timing..can that help broaden the powerband??

Thanks for everything so far guys..it is helping a lot!! KEEP IT COMING!!! :)

mike#9
02-27-2004, 10:53 AM
TTT for me!! :drive:

Chicago Crew UnderBoss
02-27-2004, 10:41 PM
Any LS1 motor in 418 cubes or bigger that is put together professionally with the right cam, tuning, stage III lS6 heads and the proper bolt (and of course full length headers) including big stall on A4 with gears or gears on a M6 will get you there, assumming traction of course!!!!!

mike#9
02-28-2004, 06:46 PM
I have a M6. All BMR stuff. Moser 12 bolt w/4.11's....everything except a couple of things are in place...I am just looking for the best motor to get me there and the most econmical..but yet quality way to do it.