View Full Version : Did your recently purchased H&R springs drop you more than advertised? Please read.


wes8398
06-21-2011, 05:01 AM
Guys and gals,
I'm currently in talks with an H&R rep. in an attempt to bring to light an issue with the springs they've been selling. The advertised average drop with these springs is 1.2" in the front and 1" in the rear. Personally, my front springs were pretty close to that, but my rear fender dropped just an 8th of an inch short of 2 full inches. Some people may not consider "too much" of a drop an "issue", and others may find yourself in the position that I do with wheels & tires that aren't fitting because the car's too low, etc. Others may just not like the "reverse rake" that these springs are producing (where the rear is lower than the front). Regardless of whether you're ok with the discrepancy or not, I'm asking that you make an attempt to contact Ryan at 1-888-827-8881 and simply inform him of the amount that your H&R springs lowered your V. The more people that inform him/them, the more likely it is that they fix the discrepancy.

This Ryan fellow is now aware of the possible issue and in our last conversation he told me that he's looking into it. He said he pulled 3 sets of rear springs out of their bin and tested them (I'm not sure what this testing entails), and they all "tested to their standards". I gave him my before and after floor to fender (through midline of wheel) measurements which showed a drop of 1 & 7/8ths in the rear. Ryan asked if I'd made any bump stop modifications or other suspension modifications, to which I told him I had not, except for the shock relocation spacers. I explained that these spacers have no effect on the static ride height of the vehicle, but were simply to compensate for the Nivomat auto-leveling shocks. He didn't seem familliar with this modification, but seemed to understand and accept that it did not effect the static ride height of the vehicle.

At one point in our initial conversation, Ryan did say that these springs were not made to work with vehicles equipped with auto-leveling shocks. I informed Ryan that I wasn't aware of ANY cts-v that did not have Nivomat auto-leveling shocks and thus, if this were the case with the springs, that they never should have been marketed as springs for the CTS-V. That was the last that I heard of this arguement, and Ryan continues to look into the subject.

Anyway, if you do contact H&R, please post up here with any pertinant info.

Thanks guys.

babrown18
06-21-2011, 06:32 AM
he told me that he's looking into it..

that usually means he wont do anything.. u will be saying:ripped:

wes8398
06-21-2011, 07:29 AM
that usually means he wont do anything.. u will be saying:ripped:

Thanks for the incredibly valuable input...:gtfo:

Had I thought that this was going to be the case, I probably wouldn't have gone to the trouble to post this thread. Regardless, I'm not really even looking to get anything out of this, rather than just make them aware of what's going on. If there happens to be any type of renumeration once/if they realize their mistake(s), then even better for those of us who put the effort into bringing this to their attention.

whisler151
06-21-2011, 08:24 AM
So you modified your rear suspension my relocating the shock, and now the lowered results are more than what the manufacturer claimed?

That doesn't sound like their problem to me and I guarantee that is what they are going to say.

wes8398
06-21-2011, 08:33 AM
Whistler - You MUST have read at least a few of the posts out there that explain that shock spacers (MM or otherwise) DO NOT effect static ride height of the vehicle. The info is posted all over the place, including on my 2 recent threads that you've chimed in on. Do you just refuse to believe it, or what?

Guys, talk to anyone around here that has a decent understanding of our Nivomat shocks and these types of spacers, and theyll all tell you that the spacers DO NOT, directly or indirectly, effect static ride height.

I could uninstall these spacers and, as long as the car isn't or hasnt very recently been in motion, get the same floor to fender measurements as I have now. THE SPRINGS DETERMINE THE RIDE HEIGHT, not the spacers.

whisler151
06-21-2011, 08:39 AM
Whistler - You MUST have read at least a few of the posts out there that explain that shock spacers (MM or otherwise) DO NOT effect static ride height of the vehicle. The info is posted all over the place, including on my 2 recent threads that you've chimed in on. Do you just refuse to believe it, or what?

Guys, talk to anyone around here that has a decent understanding of our Nivomat shocks and these types of spacers, and theyll all tell you that the spacers DO NOT, directly or indirectly, effect static ride height.

I could uninstall these spacers and, as long as the car isn't or hasnt very recently been in motion, get the same floor to fender measurements as I have now. THE SPRINGS DETERMINE THE RIDE HEIGHT, not the spacers.

That wont matter to the manufacturer. They tested the springs in 2004 and sent them to market. In 2008 the MM mod came out. Only after that did people complain about the rear being too low.

Companies (dealerships too) don't care that the mod you did has no effect or whether it even helps a poor design (axles on a V), if you modify it they will not help (in most cases).

Best of luck though.

wes8398
06-21-2011, 09:03 AM
Thanks for the encouraging words, but as I said in my reply to Babrown18, I wouldn't be persuing this if I didn't feel that Ryan was open to getting to the bottom of the issue. If I have to go in and uninstall the spacers to convince him, then I will. Hell, maybe we'll even get someone in touch with him that doesn't have spacers installed and is still seeing the issue...

adanieljohnson1
06-21-2011, 12:26 PM
I would love to be slammed... what kind of tire fitment issues are you having? Could it be fixed with any cuting in the wheel well?

adanieljohnson1
06-21-2011, 12:31 PM
Oh, and don't get mad at this statement as it could be a commen error but based on the height that you posted it almost seems that you reversed the springs (rears up front and fronts in the rear?) I'm not saying that its the case or even if its possible but I've been known to do some pretty stupid shit just because I would get a head of myself..( built a bookshelf inverted) and got laughed at for days...

adanieljohnson1
06-21-2011, 12:36 PM
Now that I think about it, the shocks being reversed would make since.. your super low in the back because the front shocks would be a tad softer causing the ride height to drop lower in the rear and the rears would be stiffer causing the front to not be very affected by the added weight... or I'm just an idiot and need to rethink life... prolly later of the 2... haha

nikon
06-21-2011, 01:06 PM
^ Front springs/shocks won't fit in the rear...front is struts...rear is separate spring/shock

CamminV6
06-21-2011, 01:56 PM
I may call Ryan as my car also dropped just short of 2 inches. But the look is kinda growing on me :)

wes8398
06-21-2011, 02:10 PM
AJ1 - What Nikon said. My wheel fitment issues are posted up (with pics) in 2 other threads I started recently.

Camminv6 - the look might have grown on me too, but these rubbing issues with the new wheels and tires ruined it for me.

EasyZ06
06-21-2011, 02:52 PM
Might want to take out the MM spacers and replace them with just a few washers. This way you can play with how thick your spacer will be and get a better ride height.

whisler151
06-21-2011, 03:03 PM
might want to take out the mm spacers and replace them with just a few washers. This way you can play with how thick your spacer will be and get a better ride height.

If its too low ditch the MM and do the spacers that have worked for years.

EdmundGTP
06-21-2011, 03:11 PM
Might want to take out the MM spacers and replace them with just a few washers. This way you can play with how thick your spacer will be and get a better ride height.


Not as effective of a means to adjust the ride height as modifying the spring or how the spring fits. Modifying only the MM spacer may alter the dynamic ride height of the car, but will also change (most likely for the worse) the ride quality because that aforementioned height change is due to the auto-leveling of the shock. For best ride quality you want there to be ZERO load leveling occurring during normal driving (i.e. empty trunk, and empty back seat). It's not something you want to induce by modifying the spacer.

nikon
06-21-2011, 03:14 PM
Might want to take out the MM spacers and replace them with just a few washers. This way you can play with how thick your spacer will be and get a better ride height.

It rides like shit on the shocks and clunks going over bumps....OP is right, adjust ride height by the springs and control damping with shocks.

Besides, car would be a different height driving than it would sitting still.

wes8398
06-21-2011, 03:33 PM
Might want to take out the MM spacers and replace them with just a few washers. This way you can play with how thick your spacer will be and get a better ride height.

If its too low ditch the MM and do the spacers that have worked for years.

Is this a joke? I fee like I'm in the facking twilight zone here. LOL SHOCK RE-LOCATORS/SPACERS DO NOT CHANGE THE RIDE HEIGHT! THEY JUST COMPENSATE FOR THE NIVOMATS (only when car's in motion)!

whisler151
06-21-2011, 03:39 PM
Is this a joke? I fee like I'm in the facking twilight zone here. LOL SHOCK RE-LOCATORS/SPACERS DO NOT CHANGE THE RIDE HEIGHT! THEY JUST COMPENSATE FOR THE NIVOMATS (only when car's in motion)!

Dude, if you install lowering springs on stock V the rear does not go down.

If you install the 1" spacer (four 1/4" washers) on the top of the shock and install the springs you will drop 1".

I did this in 2007 and there have been hundreds of others that have. Y'all that are doing the MM mod are getting the rear MUCH lower than with just the spacers. And it seems that most of you are finding that the MM mod lowers the rear too much for you.

Original spacers (WW and Nels) = 1" drop.

MM Mod = ~2" drop

CamminV6
06-21-2011, 03:46 PM
Dude, if you install lowering springs on stock V the rear does not go down.

If you install the 1" spacer (four 1/4" washers) on the top of the shock and install the springs you will drop 1".

I did this in 2007 and there have been hundreds of others that have. Y'all that are doing the MM mod are getting the rear MUCH lower than with just the spacers. And it seems that most of you are finding that the MM mod lowers the rear too much for you.

Original spacers (WW and Nels) = 1" drop.

MM Mod = ~2" drop

hmmm, maybe I need to check into the washers then...but right now I have no rubbing issues like the OP so I may just give it some time. The 2" drop looks good just don't wanna tear anything up.

wes8398
06-21-2011, 03:48 PM
That doesn't make ANY sense to me. If I used that same idea, then I could say that if I took the rear shocks RIGHT OFF the car, it wouldn't hold itself up anymore. Of course it will. And the SPRINGS determine what height it'll sit at.

If I put these same H&R's on my car and DON'T install shock spacers, the suspension STILL DROPS! And to prove it, I'm going to uninstall my spacers tonight. If I understand everything correctly, I'll drop the car down off the jack stands and it'll sit at the same damn height it's sitting right now. The ONLY thing that'll change is that without the spacers, now it'll pump back up that 1 & 7/8ths when the car is in motion (activating the Nivomats).

whisler151
06-21-2011, 03:53 PM
That doesn't make ANY sense to me. If I used that same idea, then I could say that if I took the rear shocks RIGHT OFF the car, it wouldn't hold itself up anymore. Of course it will. And the SPRINGS determine what height it'll sit at.

If I put these same H&R's on my car and DON'T install shock spacers, the suspension STILL DROPS! And to prove it, I'm going to uninstall my spacers tonight. If I understand everything correctly, I'll drop the car down off the jack stands and it'll sit at the same damn height it's sitting right now. The ONLY thing that'll change is that without the spacers, now it'll pump back up that 1 & 7/8ths when the car is in motion (activating the Nivomats).

Wes, back in 2004 WW came up with 1" spacers that were added to the top of the shock. This allowed (with lowering springs) the rear to drop 1". This was the only option for those who did not want to do coil overs...until MM came up with his mod. This allowed the rear to drop even more.

I have no interest in the MM mod because it lowers the rear too much. This is why i have stuck with the spacers that Nels continued making when WW stopped. If you want your V to be lowered 1" then remove the MM mod and just add the spacers to the shock which should be in stock position. If you like the slammed look then keep the MM mod. It looks great.

EdmundGTP
06-21-2011, 04:05 PM
Whistler, are you looking at things from the standpoint of installing H&R springs with the MM spacers, or Eibach rear springs with spacers which are listed in your sig? Even though both H&R and Eibach advertise the same drop amount for their rear springs, I have serious doubts as to how similar they really are..

If your previous experience regarding spacers and springs is based on using Eibach springs, then we're comparing fruits of a different type here..

whisler151
06-21-2011, 04:10 PM
Whistler, are you looking at things from the standpoint of installing H&R springs with the MM spacers, or Eibach rear springs with spacers which are listed in your sig? Even though both H&R and Eibach advertise the same drop amount for their rear springs, I have serious doubts as to how similar they really are..

If your previous experience regarding spacers and springs is based on using Eibach springs, then we're comparing fruits of a different type here..

I'm talking about installing Eibach or H&R springs with the original style spacers. Both yielded the same rear lowering...which is because of the spacers that were added. H&Rs are known to lower the front a tab bit more than the Eibach.

MM (im sure he can chime in here) wanted his V lower, so he came up with a new way. I do not know how it works, but do know that it achieves a much lower look than the original spacers did.

wes8398
06-21-2011, 04:11 PM
Wes, back in 2004 WW came up with 1" spacers that were added to the top of the shock. This allowed (with lowering springs) the rear to drop 1". This was the only option for those who did not want to do coil overs...until MM came up with his mod. This allowed the rear to drop even more.
The key in that statement is that it allows the rear to drop more. It didn't drop the rear more. What else needs to change for the spacer to allow more drop? The spring does! :D

I have no interest in the MM mod because it lowers the rear too much...

I whole-heartedly disagree that it lowers too much.

whisler151
06-21-2011, 04:13 PM
The key in that statement is that it allows the rear to drop more. It didn't drop the rear more. What else needs to change for the spacer to allow more drop? The spring does! :D

I have no interest in the MM mod because it lowers the rear too much...

I whole-heartedly disagree that it lowers too much.

Ok, I'm done arguing with you.

Good luck.

wes8398
06-21-2011, 04:20 PM
Sorry for arguing, but you did just state that you dont even know how these spacers work. I've done endless reading on the topic and been well informed by many, including mightymouse. I'm confident that I'm right here, and I don't want others to continue being misinformed. Please dont take it personally. I appreciate anyone who takes the time out of their life to chime in on a topic.

whisler151
06-21-2011, 04:27 PM
Sorry for arguing, but you did just state that you dont even know how these spacers work. I've done endless reading on the topic and been well informed by many, including mightymouse. I'm confident that I'm right here, and I don't want others to continue being misinformed. Please dont take it personally. I appreciate anyone who takes the time out of their life to chime in on a topic.

I understand what you are saying about the spring. My point was that H&R developed these springs in 2004. There was no MM mod back then. People put the spacers on the top of their shocks to lower 1".

If you want more than a 1" drop, do the MM mod. But know that it will drop it ~2". If you want a 1" drop do what we've been doing for years.

EdmundGTP
06-21-2011, 04:52 PM
Looking at this, (http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/lowercts/index.html) it appears that the WW spacers and MM spacers effectively do the exact same thing, and basically let the rod of the shock extend up past the mounting point by XX inches. Perhaps in slightly different amounts for each of the spacer types.

Either way, regardless of what changing the shock spacers does or doesn't do, the best way to adjust ride height is with the spring, and the ideal setup (spacer/spring combo) would induce NO auto-leveling of the nimovat shocks. There's a reason why all coilover systems, and even the ground control system, are adjustable based on the spring perch locations. That's because the basic premise of a shock is that it's not a load bearing device, but a dampening device to control the motion of the spring as it supports the vehicle load. Unfortunately our shocks have a bit of mechanically driven logic built in that can manipulate the ride height when its predetermined travel parameters are exceeded, and unfortunately plays hell with trying to lower the car.

At the same time I don't anticipate that H&R will do much of anything to take a pro-active role in addressing the drop discrepancy. They've sold how many hundreds (thousands?) of CTS-V lowering springs, and I'd be willing to bet that this is the first that they're hearing about any sort of "issue".

I'd also be willing to bet that even if Wes reinstalls the H&R springs with NO shock spacer, that the total drop will STILL be more than what their advertised amount is. Until he goes and drives it around..

Either way I'd be curious to know what H&R's design criteria and guildlines were when they developed the springs, but I doubt we'll ever receive a full report on that.

I actually don't think that either of you guys are wrong here.. The MM spacer was created to get a drop of MORE than 1 inch. If the combination of eibach/HR springs and the old style spacers gave a drop of a consistently measurable 1.00" then I'd be willing to bet that the ride height there was the result of the shock operating near its "normal operation" compressive travel limit and it was aiding in the lift of the rear of the car more than its design intended to.

What I'm getting at is, the MM spacers seem to allow the shock to remain within or closer to its range of "normal operation", which in turn means it doesn't contribute significantly to holding up the rear of the car. That results in the spring compressing further, and lowering the car more.

whisler151
06-21-2011, 04:58 PM
Looking at this, (http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/lowercts/index.html) it appears that the WW spacers and MM spacers effectively do the exact same thing, and basically let the rod of the shock extend up past the mounting point by XX inches. Perhaps in slightly different amounts for each of the spacer types.

Either way, regardless of what changing the shock spacers does or doesn't do, the best way to adjust ride height is with the spring, and the ideal setup (spacer/spring combo) would induce NO auto-leveling of the nimovat shocks. There's a reason why all coilover systems, and even the ground control system, are adjustable based on the spring perch locations. That's because the basic premise of a shock is that it's not a load bearing device, but a dampening device to control the motion of the spring as it supports the vehicle load. Unfortunately our shocks have a bit of mechanically driven logic built in that can manipulate the ride height when its predetermined travel parameters are exceeded, and unfortunately plays hell with trying to lower the car.

At the same time I don't anticipate that H&R will do much of anything to take a pro-active role in addressing the drop discrepancy. They've sold how many hundreds (thousands?) of CTS-V lowering springs, and I'd be willing to bet that this is the first that they're hearing about any sort of "issue".

I'd also be willing to bet that even if Wes reinstalls the H&R springs with NO shock spacer, that the total drop will STILL be more than what their advertised amount is.

Either way I'd be curious to know what H&R's design criteria and guildlines were when they developed the springs, but I doubt we'll ever receive a full report on that.

Agreed.

BudRacing
06-21-2011, 05:49 PM
What I'm getting at is, the MM spacers seem to allow the shock to remain within or closer to its range of "normal operation", which in turn means it doesn't contribute significantly to holding up the rear of the car. That results in the spring compressing further, and lowering the car more.

I think I like this theory the best. I'll put in the MM spacers, and if it's too low, I may add some heater hose to the top and/or bottom of the springs for a little more spring height.

wes8398
06-21-2011, 06:20 PM
I've decided against the un/re-install of the MM spacers, especially since it's just for argument's sake. Instead, I'm going to try to solve some of my problems and get these damn wheels on. Gonna cut a coil off the rear OEM springs and re-install them tonight. I have a set of MAP trailing arms that are on their way (courtesy of wheeldude - great customer service!), and once both these things are done I think I should be in the clear. I still *might* roll the fenders after that, but I'm waiting on the tool to become available. I also want to see if I can get away without fender rolling after the taller springs and new trailing arms are installed.

Back onto the original topic here - I'm going to continue to pursue H&R myself. If anyone else wants to do the same, all the better. I'll post here if anything ever happens, but like most of the rest of you, I'm not expecting much. We'll see.

CamminV6
06-21-2011, 08:03 PM
Where might I buy these spacers that only drop the car 1"???

EdmundGTP
06-21-2011, 08:07 PM
Don't think anybody makes them anymore...

CamminV6
06-21-2011, 08:18 PM
Don't think anybody makes them anymore...

guess that why everyone kept saying to buy the MM spacers. My car is only too low in the driver rear by 3/8", maybe I can play around with the spacers and bring it up to being even with the passenger side.

EdmundGTP
06-21-2011, 08:40 PM
You're really missing the point of everything that's been discussed so far. If you're unhappy with the ride height. Adjust it by shimming the spring itself. Not the shock spacer.. Messing with the spacer is just forcing the shock absorber back into the operating range where it wants to auto-level, and that makes your ride quality start to suck.

itsslow98
06-21-2011, 09:08 PM
Sounds like user or car error not spring error. I have seen COUNTLESS threads and posts on here with how happy they are with H&Rs. FAR FAR FAR more then bad reviews about them.

Problem I see is you lowered the car, then tried to stuff wheels that really have no business being on the car if you didnt want trouble.

19x10 wheels on a lowered V1 is asking for trouble and thats what you got. Trailing arms need to be modified, fenders need to be rolled. I think your blaming the spirngs for your trouble when it may be your wheel choice and tire choice.

Have you considered that your shocks may be worn out or need to be replaced? I dont think your gonan see H&R getting many phone calls about cars being lowered too much with their springs.

EdmundGTP
06-21-2011, 09:18 PM
Sounds like user or car error not spring error. I have seen COUNTLESS threads and posts on here with how happy they are with H&Rs. FAR FAR FAR more then bad reviews about them.

Problem I see is you lowered the car, then tried to stuff wheels that really have no business being on the car if you didnt want trouble.

19x10 wheels on a lowered V1 is asking for trouble and thats what you got. Trailing arms need to be modified, fenders need to be rolled. I think your blaming the spirngs for your trouble when it may be your wheel choice and tire choice.

Have you considered that your shocks may be worn out or need to be replaced? I dont think your gonan see H&R getting many phone calls about cars being lowered too much with their springs.

That's all well and good, and I agree with you for the most part really, but the main thing that's being pointed out here is the FACT that the actual drop H&R springs provide is significantly more than what they advertise. The lowering "too much" aspect of it is pretty subjective from person to person. I wouldn't say it's "too much". More than advertised? Yep.

wes8398
06-21-2011, 10:07 PM
Sounds like user or car error not spring error. I have seen COUNTLESS threads and posts on here with how happy they are with H&Rs. FAR FAR FAR more then bad reviews about them.

Problem I see is you lowered the car, then tried to stuff wheels that really have no business being on the car if you didnt want trouble.

19x10 wheels on a lowered V1 is asking for trouble and thats what you got. Trailing arms need to be modified, fenders need to be rolled. I think your blaming the spirngs for your trouble when it may be your wheel choice and tire choice.

Have you considered that your shocks may be worn out or need to be replaced? I dont think your gonan see H&R getting many phone calls about cars being lowered too much with their springs.

Cut and dry, nowhere for misunderstanding: H&R said 1" drop in the rear. Actual results were 1 7/8" drop. That's my beef.

The wheels/tires not fitting, yah, of course I'm putting some blame on the springs! It's deserved. Had the springs done what they advertised to do and given me a 1" drop, then the tires wouldn't have been bitten by the fender because they would have had that 7/8" more room. Almost an inch more room would give a considerable amount of extra room for body roll, which was what caused my fender to bite my tire.

On a great customer service note, Wheeldude actually bought the MAP trailing arms that are on their way to me now. All I did was call the LC rep to tell him about the issues I was having. He asked what could be done to remedy the situation and I told him about the MAP arms. He asked how much, and I told him. He issued refund for that amount. It was stellar customer service. He did say that they'd be adding a warning to the wheel description that these issues may arise, but since that warning had not been conveyed to me (I have multiple emails from them stating that the wheels with 275/35-19 tires would fit without any other modifications), that he'd take care of the issue.

Also notable is this: I cut my stock springs this afternoon and swapped 'em in place of the h&r's. For those of you saying that the MM spacers were what was making me "too low", can you explain how these 'new' springs now have my rear fenders a 1/2 inch higher with spacers still installed? After cut spring install and a drive around to seat them, my rear fenders are now between 26 3/8" and 26 1/2" off the floor with the cut springs and MM spacers. Half an hour prior, with the H&R's and MM's, my rear fenders were 25 7/8" off the floor.

With cut OEM springs and MM's installed:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy71/wes8398/IMG_1119.jpg

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy71/wes8398/IMG_1116.jpg

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy71/wes8398/IMG_1121.jpg

What I took off the OEM springs:

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy71/wes8398/IMG_1120.jpg

itsslow98
06-21-2011, 10:32 PM
Have you tried throwing the stock wheels and tires back on the car to confirm the height and issues with the tires? You ddid do all this at one time correct and never put the stock wheels on with the H&Rs?

wes8398
06-21-2011, 11:26 PM
Good point, I should have clarified. Fender measurements were all taken with the OEM wheels and 245/45-18 Toyo Observe Garit winter tires on them. For the last week and a half or so I've been driving around with my summer 'shoes' on the front, and my winter (oem) 'shoes' on the back because of the fitment issues with the LC's (Linea Corse's). As much as I hated to do it, I didn't want to wear down the winter tires any more than I had to. This 80+ degree weather is far from ideal for a winter tire in terms of longevity. lol
So, I didn't take the pics til after I put the LC's back on the back, so I could compare pictures from when I had the H&R's on with them to now.

whisler151
06-22-2011, 07:54 AM
Where might I buy these spacers that only drop the car 1"???

D3 makes them.

wes8398
06-22-2011, 09:06 AM
Camminv6 - or just cut your stockers like I did and don't bother wasting your time changing out perfectly good spacers.

CamminV6
06-22-2011, 11:05 AM
Camminv6 - or just cut your stockers like I did and don't bother wasting your time changing out perfectly good spacers.

I have never liked the ride with cut springs on past cars, plus why pay $300 for H&R's to use only half a set. I feel like I should be paying $150 for just front springs in that case. I will call H&R as well just see if the response I get.