brakes and SFC's
03-02-2004, 11:36 PM
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brakes and SFC's I have a 98 w/ ttops and am researching for future mods... i am only 17 and have a budget, so what kind of brake upgrades (preferably slotted rotors front and back) would you suggest? Also, which SFC's fit well and dont make such a huge dent in the wallet? I had the Rk sport triangulated SFC's in mind. thanks for the feedback..
03-03-2004, 08:20 AM
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Let me start off by saying that the SEARCH key located at the top of the forum board will take you to a far off land where these two questions and countless others have been answered 34,512 times over.
You are not the first to ask these questions, (you won't be the last), but I will try to answer these for you. They are just my opinion, don't take them for law.
1. Brake upgrade: The stock brakes on 98-2002 F-bodies are more than enough for street driving.
Basic upgrades include:
Upgrading brake pads: Hawk HPS or Carbotechs are highly recommended here
Upgrading rotors: Brembo or Autozone stock replacements are what the big boys use. The key word here is stock replacements. Slotted or Crossdrilled rotors are, as trackbird put it, "driveway jewelry." They should not be considered and upgrade, rather an appearance mod. If you are asking for advice on crossdrilled rotors, go post in Appearance & Detailing.
Upgrading Calipers: This can get expensive quick. The Corvette / Z06 caliper upgrade is usually all that is needed for a street / mild track use vehicle. This is usually combined with a Corvette (12 inch?) rotor upgrade. Going farther, the price jumps from 800-1000 dollars to over 3000. (Check out the guys running Porsche GT2/GT3 Brakes.
Subframe connectors: These should have come on the car as standard equipment. There is much debate over styles, but here are my favorites in two groups.
1.SLP bolt on - assuming you can't weld. (you can get them welded later)
2.BMR/Spohn/Global West/Hotchkis - weld on. (make sure you get these welded on by a good shop or at least do a search on correct procedure before you try to weld them yourself. They are a bitch to try and remove it you have screwed it up.)
By the way, I learned all of this by searching the previous threads and finding out what works. There have been many others on here that have installed the above items and have posted their opinions on this forum. Trackbird and MitchnTX have posted many times with alot of good advice. Do a search for their screennames. Read! Don't post, you'll learn alot.
Tony
You are not the first to ask these questions, (you won't be the last), but I will try to answer these for you. They are just my opinion, don't take them for law.
1. Brake upgrade: The stock brakes on 98-2002 F-bodies are more than enough for street driving.
Basic upgrades include:
Upgrading brake pads: Hawk HPS or Carbotechs are highly recommended here
Upgrading rotors: Brembo or Autozone stock replacements are what the big boys use. The key word here is stock replacements. Slotted or Crossdrilled rotors are, as trackbird put it, "driveway jewelry." They should not be considered and upgrade, rather an appearance mod. If you are asking for advice on crossdrilled rotors, go post in Appearance & Detailing.
Upgrading Calipers: This can get expensive quick. The Corvette / Z06 caliper upgrade is usually all that is needed for a street / mild track use vehicle. This is usually combined with a Corvette (12 inch?) rotor upgrade. Going farther, the price jumps from 800-1000 dollars to over 3000. (Check out the guys running Porsche GT2/GT3 Brakes.
Subframe connectors: These should have come on the car as standard equipment. There is much debate over styles, but here are my favorites in two groups.
1.SLP bolt on - assuming you can't weld. (you can get them welded later)
2.BMR/Spohn/Global West/Hotchkis - weld on. (make sure you get these welded on by a good shop or at least do a search on correct procedure before you try to weld them yourself. They are a bitch to try and remove it you have screwed it up.)
By the way, I learned all of this by searching the previous threads and finding out what works. There have been many others on here that have installed the above items and have posted their opinions on this forum. Trackbird and MitchnTX have posted many times with alot of good advice. Do a search for their screennames. Read! Don't post, you'll learn alot.
Tony
03-03-2004, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mitchntx
LOL .... this is all turning into CC.com
Tony
03-03-2004, 09:57 AM
#5
Don't misunderstand ... everyone has an opinion. And because they are just that, opinions, we might disagree. That's OK, too. I too am not worthy of that site ... those guys are ANIMALS!
I just find it amusing that some are taking on that type of attitude. Personally, I like it. I know Kevin and I have discussed offline how it gets rather tiring typing the same stuff over and over again. Especially for me as it has taken me 30 minutes to type this much!
Texreb ... sorry for the hi-jack. Many of the real knowledgable folks don't have a job that allows them to camp on the internet all day. Be patient ... you will get a lot of good advice, a little great advice and some ***-clown advice, like me.
I just find it amusing that some are taking on that type of attitude. Personally, I like it. I know Kevin and I have discussed offline how it gets rather tiring typing the same stuff over and over again. Especially for me as it has taken me 30 minutes to type this much!
Texreb ... sorry for the hi-jack. Many of the real knowledgable folks don't have a job that allows them to camp on the internet all day. Be patient ... you will get a lot of good advice, a little great advice and some ***-clown advice, like me.
03-03-2004, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mitchntx
Don't misunderstand ... everyone has an opinion. And because they are just that, opinions, we might disagree. That's OK, too. I too am not worthy of that site ... those guys are ANIMALS!
I value your opinion as well as Kevins. Anytime that I have a question about something handling related, I look up one of your names. (Cause I know if I look up trackbird's you will have posted in the same thread somewhere and vice-versa). I will still defend my opinion that you two are the 'experts' on handling in this forum. I just think that it's pointless that some people don't show the new guys the search button. I like the way CC.com runs their site, No B.S. is allowed, the search key is encouraged. They weed out the bullshit posters and the guys that don't know anything quick. I also like their wit and humor. (yes you could detect some wifting of that in my original post).
Anyhow, I said the same to Kevin. I hope you guys continue to post, you two are the only reason I check in on Handling & Braking section.
Tony
03-03-2004, 01:02 PM
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03-03-2004, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by VIP1
What site are you guys talking about?
I tried www.cc.com and it was a ticket sales site.
I tried www.cc.com and it was a ticket sales site.
www.corner-carvers.com
Tony
03-03-2004, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by git_sum
And do Z06 calipers really help your stopping power that much? Whats the difference between them and stock F-body calipers?
This thread explains it all.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...4&page=1&pp=20
Read both pages
Tony
03-05-2004, 09:26 AM
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source the guy that said Crossdrilled & Vented Rotors are just eye jewelry is an idiot and shouldn't bother us with his un-educated opinion.
Opinions are like as*h*les....everybody's got one.
Obviously he's never had his car on a REAL Racetrack in his life !
I sell Crossdrilled & Vented Rotors and use them on my car.
I Road Race at 2 Track Events per year (2.5 mile "Watkins Glen" type track)and they have eliminated all Brake fade that I used to get with the stock set-up.
These are a "bolt-on" replacement for the factory rotors.
I also handle HAWK Brake Pads in HPS & the HP+ (for the track guys).
www.muggziperformance.com
Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have.
Thanks
Muggzi
Opinions are like as*h*les....everybody's got one.
Obviously he's never had his car on a REAL Racetrack in his life !
I sell Crossdrilled & Vented Rotors and use them on my car.
I Road Race at 2 Track Events per year (2.5 mile "Watkins Glen" type track)and they have eliminated all Brake fade that I used to get with the stock set-up.
These are a "bolt-on" replacement for the factory rotors.
I also handle HAWK Brake Pads in HPS & the HP+ (for the track guys).
www.muggziperformance.com
Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have.
Thanks
Muggzi
03-05-2004, 02:24 PM
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Ok muggsy,
Since you seem to be an "expert" on the subject of braking and handling, please enlighten all of us on this subject.
I'll start my questioning, since I am a mechanical engineer please feel free to use any term which you feel appropriate. You will not have to "dummy down" the conversation for me.
1. One of the major functions of the braking systems of the car is to dissipate heat. By crossdrilling rotors you are decreasing surface area of the rotor which the brake pad contacts. This can be offset by using larger rotors, but then why not use solid, larger diameter rotors in the first place?
1a. A second way the rotors dissipate heat is by using cooling fins that are sandwiched between the two surfaces of the rotor. These cooling fins are shaped so that they act as a fan across the inside surface(s) of the rotor. By drilling holes in the surfaces, the air tends to escape through these holes thus negating a portion of air that would travel to the outer radius of the rotor. By disrupting the airflow that was originally designed into the rotor's cooling vanes, are your rotors more prone to hot spotting?
2. Modern disc brake pads do not out-gas like pads of the past. Why do we need gas-escape holes in our rotor surface then.
3. By crossdrilling into the surface, you are disrupting the crystalline grain structure in the immediate area of the hole. This in time could create stress areas where crack formation could occur. Are your cross-drilled holes chamfered to minimize stress risers? Have the rotors undergone heat treatment, such as annealing or cryogenic treatment to restore the metals grain structure? Even if the rotors are heat treated, the brakes will naturally heat with application then cool during normal driving/resting. How have your rotors faired with this heating/cooling cycles?
4. Please post some Q value numbers for you rotors. And by this I mean heat transfer numbers. What are the numbers for the heat transfer from the inside radius of the rotor to the outside radius? This would have to be substantiated for rotors with and without holes. Since the holes allow air movement through the surface of the rotor, thus disrupting the designed airflow, how is convection of heat affected by this?
Please enlighten me to how your rotors are superior.
Tony
Since you seem to be an "expert" on the subject of braking and handling, please enlighten all of us on this subject.
I'll start my questioning, since I am a mechanical engineer please feel free to use any term which you feel appropriate. You will not have to "dummy down" the conversation for me.
1. One of the major functions of the braking systems of the car is to dissipate heat. By crossdrilling rotors you are decreasing surface area of the rotor which the brake pad contacts. This can be offset by using larger rotors, but then why not use solid, larger diameter rotors in the first place?
1a. A second way the rotors dissipate heat is by using cooling fins that are sandwiched between the two surfaces of the rotor. These cooling fins are shaped so that they act as a fan across the inside surface(s) of the rotor. By drilling holes in the surfaces, the air tends to escape through these holes thus negating a portion of air that would travel to the outer radius of the rotor. By disrupting the airflow that was originally designed into the rotor's cooling vanes, are your rotors more prone to hot spotting?
2. Modern disc brake pads do not out-gas like pads of the past. Why do we need gas-escape holes in our rotor surface then.
3. By crossdrilling into the surface, you are disrupting the crystalline grain structure in the immediate area of the hole. This in time could create stress areas where crack formation could occur. Are your cross-drilled holes chamfered to minimize stress risers? Have the rotors undergone heat treatment, such as annealing or cryogenic treatment to restore the metals grain structure? Even if the rotors are heat treated, the brakes will naturally heat with application then cool during normal driving/resting. How have your rotors faired with this heating/cooling cycles?
4. Please post some Q value numbers for you rotors. And by this I mean heat transfer numbers. What are the numbers for the heat transfer from the inside radius of the rotor to the outside radius? This would have to be substantiated for rotors with and without holes. Since the holes allow air movement through the surface of the rotor, thus disrupting the designed airflow, how is convection of heat affected by this?
Please enlighten me to how your rotors are superior.
Tony
03-05-2004, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by muggzi
I sell Crossdrilled & Vented Rotors and use them on my car.
I Road Race at 2 Track Events per year (2.5 mile "Watkins Glen" type track)and they have eliminated all Brake fade that I used to get with the stock set-up.
These are a "bolt-on" replacement for the factory rotors.
I also handle HAWK Brake Pads in HPS & the HP+ (for the track guys).
Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have.
Thanks
Muggzi
I Road Race at 2 Track Events per year (2.5 mile "Watkins Glen" type track)and they have eliminated all Brake fade that I used to get with the stock set-up.
These are a "bolt-on" replacement for the factory rotors.
I also handle HAWK Brake Pads in HPS & the HP+ (for the track guys).
Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have.
Thanks
Muggzi
Originally Posted by muggzi
I'll look this info up and get back to you early next week......
Maybe you ought to contact the board owners about becoming a sponsor as well while you're at it
03-05-2004, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by PSU_Engineer
Ok muggsy,
Since you seem to be an "expert" on the subject of braking and handling, please enlighten all of us on this subject.
I'll start my questioning, since I am a mechanical engineer please feel free to use any term which you feel appropriate. You will not have to "dummy down" the conversation for me.
1. One of the major functions of the braking systems of the car is to dissipate heat. By crossdrilling rotors you are decreasing surface area of the rotor which the brake pad contacts. This can be offset by using larger rotors, but then why not use solid, larger diameter rotors in the first place?
1a. A second way the rotors dissipate heat is by using cooling fins that are sandwiched between the two surfaces of the rotor. These cooling fins are shaped so that they act as a fan across the inside surface(s) of the rotor. By drilling holes in the surfaces, the air tends to escape through these holes thus negating a portion of air that would travel to the outer radius of the rotor. By disrupting the airflow that was originally designed into the rotor's cooling vanes, are your rotors more prone to hot spotting?
2. Modern disc brake pads do not out-gas like pads of the past. Why do we need gas-escape holes in our rotor surface then.
3. By crossdrilling into the surface, you are disrupting the crystalline grain structure in the immediate area of the hole. This in time could create stress areas where crack formation could occur. Are your cross-drilled holes chamfered to minimize stress risers? Have the rotors undergone heat treatment, such as annealing or cryogenic treatment to restore the metals grain structure? Even if the rotors are heat treated, the brakes will naturally heat with application then cool during normal driving/resting. How have your rotors faired with this heating/cooling cycles?
4. Please post some Q value numbers for you rotors. And by this I mean heat transfer numbers. What are the numbers for the heat transfer from the inside radius of the rotor to the outside radius? This would have to be substantiated for rotors with and without holes. Since the holes allow air movement through the surface of the rotor, thus disrupting the designed airflow, how is convection of heat affected by this?
Please enlighten me to how your rotors are superior.
Tony
Since you seem to be an "expert" on the subject of braking and handling, please enlighten all of us on this subject.
I'll start my questioning, since I am a mechanical engineer please feel free to use any term which you feel appropriate. You will not have to "dummy down" the conversation for me.
1. One of the major functions of the braking systems of the car is to dissipate heat. By crossdrilling rotors you are decreasing surface area of the rotor which the brake pad contacts. This can be offset by using larger rotors, but then why not use solid, larger diameter rotors in the first place?
1a. A second way the rotors dissipate heat is by using cooling fins that are sandwiched between the two surfaces of the rotor. These cooling fins are shaped so that they act as a fan across the inside surface(s) of the rotor. By drilling holes in the surfaces, the air tends to escape through these holes thus negating a portion of air that would travel to the outer radius of the rotor. By disrupting the airflow that was originally designed into the rotor's cooling vanes, are your rotors more prone to hot spotting?
2. Modern disc brake pads do not out-gas like pads of the past. Why do we need gas-escape holes in our rotor surface then.
3. By crossdrilling into the surface, you are disrupting the crystalline grain structure in the immediate area of the hole. This in time could create stress areas where crack formation could occur. Are your cross-drilled holes chamfered to minimize stress risers? Have the rotors undergone heat treatment, such as annealing or cryogenic treatment to restore the metals grain structure? Even if the rotors are heat treated, the brakes will naturally heat with application then cool during normal driving/resting. How have your rotors faired with this heating/cooling cycles?
4. Please post some Q value numbers for you rotors. And by this I mean heat transfer numbers. What are the numbers for the heat transfer from the inside radius of the rotor to the outside radius? This would have to be substantiated for rotors with and without holes. Since the holes allow air movement through the surface of the rotor, thus disrupting the designed airflow, how is convection of heat affected by this?
Please enlighten me to how your rotors are superior.
Tony
03-05-2004, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PSU_Engineer
Upgrading Calipers: This can get expensive quick. The Corvette / Z06 caliper upgrade is usually all that is needed for a street / mild track use vehicle. This is usually combined with a Corvette (12 inch?) rotor upgrade. Going farther, the price jumps from 800-1000 dollars to over 3000. (Check out the guys running Porsche GT2/GT3 Brakes.
Tony
Tony
03-07-2004, 09:47 PM
#20
Originally Posted by muggzi
the guy that said Crossdrilled & Vented Rotors are just eye jewelry is an idiot and shouldn't bother us with his un-educated opinion.
Opinions are like as*h*les....everybody's got one.
Obviously he's never had his car on a REAL Racetrack in his life !
I sell Crossdrilled & Vented Rotors and use them on my car.
I Road Race at 2 Track Events per year (2.5 mile "Watkins Glen" type track)and they have eliminated all Brake fade that I used to get with the stock set-up.
These are a "bolt-on" replacement for the factory rotors.
I also handle HAWK Brake Pads in HPS & the HP+ (for the track guys).
www.muggziperformance.com
Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have.
Thanks
Muggzi
Opinions are like as*h*les....everybody's got one.
Obviously he's never had his car on a REAL Racetrack in his life !
I sell Crossdrilled & Vented Rotors and use them on my car.
I Road Race at 2 Track Events per year (2.5 mile "Watkins Glen" type track)and they have eliminated all Brake fade that I used to get with the stock set-up.
These are a "bolt-on" replacement for the factory rotors.
I also handle HAWK Brake Pads in HPS & the HP+ (for the track guys).
www.muggziperformance.com
Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have.
Thanks
Muggzi
Please ... tell me more. Educate me.
Pre cracked ... err, cross drilled rotors are the real thing, eh?
So, are all those little tiny cracks at each and every hole normal? And how in the world is all the ventilating supposed to take place with the holes plugged with brake pad material? I need to know ...
Maybe it's cheap *** rotors?
I knew those *** clown imports couldn't make anything worth a **** ...
For what it's worth, the rotors and calipers were adapted to my TA off of a 2001 Porsche 996TT. They are 13" x 1.25" rotors and 4 piston Brembo calipers. Those rotors have seen 2 sets of Pagid Black pads and over 11 track weekends, probably close to 8K miles, in the last 2 years.
They only come in C/D form and those tiny cracks formed almost immediately. The damn holes have to be cleaned out with an oxy/acetylene torch tip cleaner. They fill up after 2 or 3 pumps of the brake pedal.
C/D rotors are driveway jewelry ... that's a direct quote from someone much smarter than I ...