Advanced Engineering Tech - Nascar moves to EFI next season

Welcome to 1980´s

How much power would you be looking to pick up from the switch on the R07?

Will we see finally ITB´s and really making the most out of these engines at a professional level?

For safety they will likely restrict airflow still by either mandating throttle body size or using restrictors still. So they likely will make the same power levels as they currently do.

They are going to pick up some power and fuel mileage for sure. I'm curious how NASCAR is going to regulated the engine mapping and tuning.

If they really wanted to slow them down they would make them use production cars like they are suppose to be doing in the first place!

They will most likely do what ASA as well as other series that use injection do... the officials will issue the team a computer... at the end of the day you will be required to turn it in and will most likely be issued a different on for the next day.. Restrictor plates are done similar to this at Daytona and Talladega. I wouldnt look for any exotic TB set ups.. thats not NASCAR'S style.. And as far as the timeless debate about the cars...people who do not know why the cars are the way they and could no longer be safely production based are ignorant about the sport

i think its good to finally see them switching over to fuel injection. as far as car being like its factory cousin, its all about safety.

And as far as the timeless debate about the cars...people who do not know why the cars are the way they and could no longer be safely production based are ignorant about the sport

So put cages in them, racing seats, and harnesses with fireproofing etc. and limit the amount and quality of fuel so they arent overly powerfull. Then maybe we could have some actual sports cars in the show room. Its not that hard to come up with a solution. They shouldn't be called stock cars if they wana race race cars. Dont get me started on this subject you wont win!

Welcome to 1980´s

How much power would you be looking to pick up from the switch on the R07?

Will we see finally ITB´s and really making the most out of these engines at a professional level?I respectfully think you missed the point... it's not about increasing power...

A carburetor works very well in the narrow operating range that NASCAR racecars run in, and is so much simpler than an EFI system, there is no real advantage for any team to switching to EFI system...

NASCAR do not want to see power increase, they want to restrict the power, and to level out the playing field, the EFI systems will enable them to control this more precisely.

Its not going to be ITB's or anything exotic like that, think more along the lines of TBI.

The stuff I saw being tested at ECR a few months back used something along the lines of a 4150 throttle body with the fuel injectors very high in the runners (the engineers were complaining to NASCAR quite a bit about injector placement...last I heard they were playing around with injector locations, which are also NASCAR specified) Intake manifolds remained largely similar to what they are currently using.

Power levels are also remaining pretty consistent.....


The transition to EFI is largely for marketing purposes. NASCAR is working on a 'green' kick. This is another part of that, just like the ethanol blend they went to this year and dropping leaded fuel several years ago. They are also trying to lose some of the stigma that NASCAR is 'stuck in the 60s' to try to market more to a younger crowd. They are trying to keep the transition as seamless as possible in the performance department.

I’m not a big nascar fan but I do watch it from time to time, it looks like nascar is trying to make everything even, so it’s more of a race of driver skill, the ONLY way to do this is to put them in the same dam car!!!!!:judge::judge:

I don't think they could possibly make nascar any more boring. Even with toyotas and efi.

So put cages in them, racing seats, and harnesses with fireproofing etc. and limit the amount and quality of fuel so they arent overly powerfull. Then maybe we could have some actual sports cars in the show room. Its not that hard to come up with a solution. They shouldn't be called stock cars if they wana race race cars. Dont get me started on this subject you wont win!

Sounds to me you are describing a Grand Am car or some other failed production car class that never has or never will take off.. They have been called "STOCKCARS" since the late 40's.. and while they have evolved to what they are now the name has stuck....The Idea of driving a production bodied car into turn 3 at Atlanta at 200 is insane..People dont mention anything about a pro STOCK drag car no longer being production based.. Please explain to me why I would never win on this topic... Ive picked up a few things working in the sport for the last 10 or so years... and if worthy which im sure it will be i'll be sure to bring your ideas to Mike Helton or John Darby
I totally agree with the point brought up regarding EFI.. its nothing more than a marketing ploy.. Bringing on more costs to the teams at a fragile time is a poor idea...

Couple good reads.......

http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/nascar.asp

http://gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2011/the_way_it_is_no296.html

I feel like a moron for not realizing that they weren't already doing fuel injection.

Why don't they just put a speed limit on nascar then everybody runs 195 mph unlimited power just limited speed. Pavement pounding is just boring when all you have to worry about is wind resistance or tires. Next thing you know they'll make all the drivers talk on an open radio channel throw in some politics then BAM instant reality sport that city folk and women would watch.

I think motorsports that take real serious skill are rally racing or short course off-road you just roll it 5 times flip'er over and drive it back to the pits. :mullet:

If you've ever watched LOORR and not been excited you may be dead.

what kind of power and rpms are they making these days without a restrictor?

Its not going to be ITB's or anything exotic like that, think more along the lines of TBI.

The stuff I saw being tested at ECR a few months back used something along the lines of a 4150 throttle body with the fuel injectors very high in the runners (the engineers were complaining to NASCAR quite a bit about injector placement...last I heard they were playing around with injector locations, which are also NASCAR specified) Intake manifolds remained largely similar to what they are currently using.

Power levels are also remaining pretty consistent.....


The transition to EFI is largely for marketing purposes. NASCAR is working on a 'green' kick. This is another part of that, just like the ethanol blend they went to this year and dropping leaded fuel several years ago. They are also trying to lose some of the stigma that NASCAR is 'stuck in the 60s' to try to market more to a younger crowd. They are trying to keep the transition as seamless as possible in the performance department.


I know its a totally different formula but F1 engines generally mount the injectors above (yes that right above) the ITB horns! If you see a vid on you tube you can see almost a could of fuel forming above the ITBs! Also seen similar things used in rally and race engines.

Again talking about F1 here but the FIA are putting some pretty green ideas forward for alot of racing these days. Obviously Deisel has now become comon place in prototype style racing. WTCC is now looking to use alternative fuels.

personally its a move i would like to see!

Chris.

So put cages in them, racing seats, and harnesses with fireproofing etc. and limit the amount and quality of fuel so they arent overly powerfull. Then maybe we could have some actual sports cars in the show room. Its not that hard to come up with a solution. They shouldn't be called stock cars if they wana race race cars. Dont get me started on this subject you wont win!

I think what you are talking about there is already out there. the call is called Group N by the FIA. asically showroom spec cars that have been striped, safety equipment fitted, minor suspension alterations (ie you can run compition springs and dampers but you cant move pickup points), aftermarket ECus, minor intake and exhaust modification..... and your about there. have a look at rallying and WTCC (world touring cars) for starters.

Chris.

what kind of power and rpms are they making these days without a restrictor?

I've read about numbers near 800whp on chassis dyno post-race. I've seen 10,000 RPM topped on numerous occasions while watching qualifying on TV.

I think its a great idea, but i do not think they should hand out the controlls like they do with the resitrctor plates. Ford chevy dodge and toyota are all going to require different fuel requirments. I think they should have a company develop a box that has limited tuning parameters and then let them run what ever tune they want. At the same time all these teams are always looking at the grey areas in the rules to get an edge, so the battle to controll them will be a little more difficult. But its also a good thing cuz it will bring more jobs to the industry and to working americans who will now have to sit in the dyno room all day. I think its really cool they are doing this only because how loose liped NASCAR teams are compared to F1. The changes in camshaft design, piston and ring design and manifold deisgn will all change beacuse of this. I have alot of friends in almost all the engines shops and hearing and seening the changes will be cool. Now they just need to get rid of the flat tappet and go with rollers.

I've read about numbers near 800whp on chassis dyno post-race. I've seen 10,000 RPM topped on numerous occasions while watching qualifying on TV.

wow, 10k rpms outta of pushrod engine. They using roller cams?

wow, 10k rpms outta of pushrod engine. They using roller cams?

The cup engines are flat tappet....as far as different ecu's goes the cars all run the same carbs now.. a good cup motor is nearing 1000 bhp..if you see some old chassis.dyno numbers the cars made 876 wrhp..factor 10% for loss...

Thoes engines have not even broke 900BHP yet. The chassis dyno must have been off. When i was at toyota we had a busch truck motor than turned 11500. we ran the car and truck in 3rd gear. This was at martinsvilleThe Frued dyno would even read the rpms, we had to get an autometer tach and attach it to the dyno console. My favorite is when we would race sim the engines on the dyno, you could never hit the shutdown button fast enough before she would let go on the dyno.

Sounds to me you are describing a Grand Am car or some other failed production car class that never has or never will take off.. They have been called "STOCKCARS" since the late 40's.. and while they have evolved to what they are now the name has stuck....The Idea of driving a production bodied car into turn 3 at Atlanta at 200 is insane..People dont mention anything about a pro STOCK drag car no longer being production based.. Please explain to me why I would never win on this topic... Ive picked up a few things working in the sport for the last 10 or so years... and if worthy which im sure it will be i'll be sure to bring your ideas to Mike Helton or John Darby
I totally agree with the point brought up regarding EFI.. its nothing more than a marketing ploy.. Bringing on more costs to the teams at a fragile time is a poor idea...

Ive got lots of ideas for racing classes and rules that would make a lot more sense than they do things now. It just depends on the type of racing you want to see.

How about a drivers race? do a similar thing they did in IROC racing where the organization provided the true stock cars and the drivers and race teams would just show up and race them.

How about a engineering race? Think F1 but less restrictive with stupid rules. Instead of having these dumb rules like oh you can only use 2Liters and only rev to 20k, well fuck that how about limiting exotic materials and having the teams only spend a certain amount on raw materials so it forces them to make a better engine and not just use rediculously expensive cars. In other words it would be a lot more like what the car industry tries to do with less or inexpensive materials to make a profit. Also like I mentioned limit the fuel to pump gas and limit the amount of fuel they can use for a race, obviously this isnt a mpg race so it shouldnt be so little that it makes it impossible to finish a race with highspeeds but it shouldnt be so much that you have 2000hp drag engines running 300mph down the straights. As for the cars themselves make an unlimited class where basicaly the only restrictions are materials used and it has to be within a certain H/W/L and dont even restrict weight. Obviously for safety maybe make a little kind of pod that holds the drivers thats designed to hold up to bad crashes and that would be the only thing the guys couldnt change for safety.

I mean hell getting the manufacturers involved would be the best cause then you would have a lot of R&D going into it so they can get on top and do what they did back in the 60's "race on sunday sell on monday".

How about a engineering race? Think F1 but less restrictive with stupid rules. Instead of having these dumb rules like oh you can only use 2Liters and only rev to 20k, well fuck that how about limiting exotic materials and having the teams only spend a certain amount on raw materials so it forces them to make a better engine and not just use rediculously expensive cars. In other words it would be a lot more like what the car industry tries to do with less or inexpensive materials to make a profit. Also like I mentioned limit the fuel to pump gas and limit the amount of fuel they can use for a race, obviously this isnt a mpg race so it shouldnt be so little that it makes it impossible to finish a race with highspeeds but it shouldnt be so much that you have 2000hp drag engines running 300mph down the straights. As for the cars themselves make an unlimited class where basicaly the only restrictions are materials used and it has to be within a certain H/W/L and dont even restrict weight. Obviously for safety maybe make a little kind of pod that holds the drivers thats designed to hold up to bad crashes and that would be the only thing the guys couldnt change for safety.

I hope you understand that although the above may be intrersting for a seanson or two, once the teams get used to the rules they WILL find the optimum setup/engine and all team will end up running similar engines? F1 teams aren't stupid! if they have the ability to devleop a new RACE ENGINE in the off season that has to be pretty much spot on as soon as it hits the race track they know what the f*ck they are doing.

I do like your idea about limiting fuel and opening up the rules a bit. but you will find that whatever setup works will be copied by other teams and then haypresto you have the same situation as you are in now, all teams running similar engines.

The easist way to cut costs is to use gineric parts. BTCC has done this and insists all teams use standard gearbox and break packages. Now these are cheap bits of kit, probalby $20K in a gearbox, if not more. but at least you can stop people pending $100k on a gearbox (thats how much WRC rally car boxes can cost!!!!). You could do the same with the engines, even have a limited number of manufactures that will say wet lease their engines for a fixed cost.

Chris.