12 Second Club - No converters, but how else can I get in the 12's

First off, if you had to put up with all my other posts, you don't really have to reply to this. I have an 01 trans am. 4l60e. 3.23s. Lid, MAF, headers, drag radials. I want a mid 12 second car but I can't get a converter.

What does the car run now?

Unless you are already in the 12s your only hope or running mid 12s is a converter or small shot of nitrous. Not sure what you have against a converter but trying to race an automatic without one is as futile as shifting a manual like a granny.

If you're still in the 13s you are going to be SOL. You could get an underdrive pulley, port tb, ram air, tune, etc and might pick up .1-.2 and 1-2mph.

What exhaust is after the headers? If stock, get a cutout.

Don't fear a converter. Get a good high quality tight converter and it will be like driving in stock form until you really mash the gas, and one with lockup will be indentical driving on the highway.

My dad said no to a converter. its a long story. I was told I need to get a converter before I do heads/cam. Is this true? Surely you don't have to.

Unless you go Hot cam or LS6 cam you NEED a converter - if you are worried - just buy a small one like 2800.

I was told no cam unless you have a converter. Would an LS6 cam help though? Would I have to get supporting mods

Ls6 cam has a smaller base circle therefore push rods are a must. Springs won't handle ls6 cam either so those must be upgraded.
Timing chain and oil pump are a must in my book, some skip it but that is very dumb and asking for failure over something cheap and easy to do.

Ls6 cam will push the brakes at a stop, it is not enjoyable. It doesn't really start making noticeable power over an ls1 cam until 3500-4000+.

If I were you man just do LS6 cam or GM Hot cam and do LS6 or better heads - you will hit your 1/4 times and maybe better with a tune and some stickys. Best yet "no converter" your dad will be thrilled.

With 3.42s, mid length headers, and a 2800 converter I went 12.26 in my 99 Formula. You dont even notice a 2800 converter. I was pulling 1.72 60's too. My 01 Formula has a 4000 converter lol

Well I guess I'll actually try to answer with something other than "get a converter" :( Basically you are limited but not necessarily sol. Grab a 212/218 .522/.529 114 lsa from Comp Cams to start, or check out some of the vendors for something similar. Then grab some pushrods, 915 or 918 or equivalent valve springs with new retainers, and grab a new timing chain while you're at it. Make sure your oil pump is good and replace the o ring with a GM o ring, not just one you can find (for the oil pick-up tube). Obviously don't reuse any gaskets and make sure you get the pre load right. Stock rockers are fine. This cam will work with stock manifolds and stock stall without pcm tuning. Obviously tuning is always a good idea and headers are gonna do nothing but help you.

As far a a converter, your dad is old school and nothing wrong with that. Your trans won't take heat and extended rpm for any length of time without a good cooler, and most guys have succes with this. If you're like me and don't want to worry about your trans, just wait until she needs to be rebuilt and get the whole kit n kaboodle at once. Built trans, trangs go shift kit, 3400-4000 stall converter (pay the extra and don't buy cheap) and a good cooler. It's funny that modifying the engine is such a waste of time to so many on here if you're in an auto. Do something along the lines of what I said, and when you get your stall (and you will...;) ) you'll be happy with your setup. Grow into it all you want.

The main thing hindering your setup will be that your cam selection will be limited to smaller cams, and that's ok. Just know that a converter will do more for your car than any cam will as far as et is concerned. But don't worry, some say it's a waste of time to cam without a stall, it is not. A stall can be added at any time and should really be used in conjunction with a good shift kit if you want the kind of feel that I do. DOn't over cam (don't want it pushing through the brakes at stoplights-hence the stall), get a decent tune, and plan on getting a stall as soon as you can :). If you want a track car...then you are plain stupid not to get a good converter. However, a good daily driver can be optimized just fine with bolt ons and a mild cam. If you are doing any rolling starts, the cam is going to help (assuming it is setup right). JUst don't expect the '60 times and et that other guys are getting with stall/drs. Hope this helps and fits within your parameters.

Your dad said no to a converter?

Is it your car?

A cheap TCI converter is under 500 bucks and anything beats the stock unit.
Get a job for a month and install it yourself, or hold the job for another month and pay somebody else to do it.:eyes:

Your dad said no to a converter?

Is it your car?

A cheap TCI converter is under 500 bucks and anything beats the stock unit.
Get a job for a month and install it yourself, or hold the job for another month and pay somebody else to do it.:eyes:

Pretty sure his dad said no. Hmmm I wonder if no means yes?

Ask him if you can get a converter again....... On opposite day!

Does your dad ever go away for periods of time? Install the converter at that time lmao. I used to do it when I had my first camaro in high school. He usually found out I did this or that mod and ended up liking it.

put the jug on it.....


and a convetr... what daddy dont know wont hurthim

It's funny that modifying the engine is such a waste of time to so many on here if you're in an auto.

Well considering the cost to do a cam and proper supporting mods, a small cam (when even the stock cam really likes a decent converter) is of no interest to a lot of people. The high cost for marginal gains sucks. Worse yet is that it comes with headaches.

I drove my car for a year with the mods in my sig minus the converter and it was unpleasant. It was hell on brake pads and I had to put the car in neutral if I needed to stop quick. It was flat out dangerous to drive in traffic.

It was such a dog out of the hole it wouldn't spin from a stop on dry pavement. Then up top I was still getting outrun by cars I shouldn't have been.

Worst of both worlds. If you have no intentions of putting in a converter in the very near future, either find something else to buy or just save the money IMO.

Just my $.02 based on my personal experiences.

good ol 100 shot and call it a day

What kind of aftermarket transmission would hold up with a 3600 stall? I would still want an auto but I want something that could withstand a converter.

a properly built stock transmission with a shift kit and cooler will take one, but upgrading the sunshell, clutches, and things are very worthwhile

plenty of people put a converter in a stock trans and just add a large fluid cooler

Had a stock trans behind my 396 for around 4000 miles before it let go, however my old cam only LS1 had at least 20-30 passes and maybe 10,000 abused street miles with no problems.

Ok so if I built up my trans and put in a cooler it would hold a stall?

Yes, keeping it cool is the biggest concern. The higher the stall the more heat it generates. I also added a trans temp gauge to keep and eye on it.

Yes but would building it up help it not break?

It's a necessity.

Yes but would building it up help it not break?

It is like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

I have answered this same question asked 3 different ways and my answer was given in 3 different ways. All in different threads.

Take your advice, go back and read all 56 threads you have started over the same 1-2 topics. There is tons of good advice and FACTS. I'm not helping you any further until you read those threads and it is OBVIOUS you have used the sites search function for the simple questions.. I'm sure you will find someone that will help however.

We bought this car to have fun with. Now its a pain in the ass. Its 100% my fault, I know, but damn... I might just hope for 12.70's and if I run 12.80's or .90's, I might have to deal with it. No, I WILL have to deal with it.

My car went 12.7s all day long with stock 2.73 gears. Mods were SLP lid and long tube headers on stock tires.

What kind of MAF did you add? Get a stock one instead.

My car went 12.7s all day long with stock 2.73 gears. Mods were SLP lid and long tube headers on stock tires.

What kind of MAF did you add? Get a stock one instead.

Are you being serious right now... I don't know what MAF I have but with lid, radials, headers, panhard, trans mount, and great tune, do you think I could run 12.7's??? If so, Im going to be the happiest mofo on the planet and I wont ever ask the same question again... :D

Where are you located?

If you are on some mountain top track...then probably not.

I've had two Z28s go 12s with just lid and headers, and a friend of mine went 12s with lid and headers also. All 2.73 cars.

Drag radials actually slowed one of them down because the car hooked too hard for the 2.73s to break loose.. hah But you have 3.23s so it might not be a problem.

Are you being serious right now... I don't know what MAF I have but with lid, radials, headers, panhard, trans mount, and great tune, do you think I could run 12.7's??? If so, Im going to be the happiest mofo on the planet and I wont ever ask the same question again... :D

You know what.. Fuck it. We will ALL stop lying to you.

If you DON'T run 12.5s or better, something is majorly wrong with your car.

My proof that you can easily run 12.5s-

Bone stock with drag radials-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjXYLx4Av0w

Bolt ons only-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVDMUqMkS_U

Bolt ons only-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aIpvPSGJCg

Bone stock on a hot day (Read top of article)-
http://www.stangbangers.com/01Bullitt_Article2c.jpg


I'm sorry everyone messed with you so hard, it was a good joke though. Can't wait to see some bottom 12@113mph passes out of that beast man! :D

Yea you should be running 12's stock. Put a few bolt-ons on it and you should be good for low 12's. Those saying you need a stall are full of shit. My car went 12.5 with a lid and catback. With STOCK stall at that. Good luck OP.

Yea you should be running 12's stock. Put a few bolt-ons on it and you should be good for low 12's. Those saying you need a stall are full of shit. My car went 12.5 with a lid and catback. With STOCK stall at that. Good luck OP.

Of course.


*Glances at the sigs on this page. :secret2:

:cheers:

Of course.


*Glances at the sigs on this page. :secret2:

:cheers:

My times in sig are with lid, catback and t-tops removed. I havent got any times with the mods in my sig. I think it will be a mid-low 11 sec car now. :cheers:

My times in sig are with lid, catback and t-tops removed. I havent got any times with the mods in my sig. I think it will be a mid-low 11 sec car now.

Yea, me too!

I'm hoping to run 9s next track visit... I think it has 9.8Xs in it! With the tops out.

Yea, me too!

I'm hoping to run 9s next track visit... I think it has 9.8Xs in it! With the tops out.

I leave the tops on during the launch and just after the 60ft I pull the latch and let them fly. This way you can keep the weight to plant the tires and than get rid of some extra weight down the track. 60% of the time it works every time!

I leave the tops on during the launch and just after the 60ft I pull the latch and let them fly. This way you can keep the weight to plant the tires and than get rid of some extra weight down the track. 60% of the time it works every time!

Spoken like a true pro.

Spoken like a true pro.

Should we also let him know that every time you run 12's in a stock f-body a hott blonde is waiting to have sex with you at the end of the track? This is always a good stategy to run 12's stock. I ran a 13.1 tell my friend gave me this info. Next pass was my 12.5 :D

Should we also let him know that every time you run 12's in a stock f-body a hott blonde is waiting to have sex with you at the end of the track? This is always a good stategy to run 12's stock. I ran a 13.1 tell my friend gave me this info. Next pass was my 12.5 :D

I ran 10s stock.... What do you think I got? :pimp:

You can stop fuckin with me. I don't know what my car will run. I'm trying to make an educated guess based off other peoples cars. But that guy prob doesn't even have a car so what did u guys say? 13.1?

OP-I think you have your answer. It's not worth ripping your engine apart to cam it, if you're not going to do full supporting mods.

a properly built stock transmission with a shift kit and cooler will take one, but upgrading the sunshell, clutches, and things are very worthwhile

plenty of people put a converter in a stock trans and just add a large fluid coolerx2

Well considering the cost to do a cam and proper supporting mods, a small cam (when even the stock cam really likes a decent converter) is of no interest to a lot of people. The high cost for marginal gains sucks. Worse yet is that it comes with headaches.

I drove my car for a year with the mods in my sig minus the converter and it was unpleasant. It was hell on brake pads and I had to put the car in neutral if I needed to stop quick. It was flat out dangerous to drive in traffic.

It was such a dog out of the hole it wouldn't spin from a stop on dry pavement. Then up top I was still getting outrun by cars I shouldn't have been.

Worst of both worlds. If you have no intentions of putting in a converter in the very near future, either find something else to buy or just save the money IMO.

Just my $.02 based on my personal experiences.
I agree with what you're saying. That cam you had however was obviously too much for the stock stall, therefore pushing through the brakes and losing low end grunt. Mine never skips a beat from a stop, and pulls noticeably harder than my stocker ever did all the way up to rev limit. I didn't cam mine just for the sake of camming it though (otherwise it would have been bigger, and AFTER a stall), we had shit tore down and thought we'd upgrade to something a little bigger while doing the lifters. But still, mine was smaller than what you ran and I would never have attempted your cam with a stock stall. I was just pointing out that there are a few tried and true cams out there that require minimal tuning, while still using stock manifolds, stock converter. Are these cams worth ripping your motor apart for? Probably not. I think I said it the way I intended to down below :nod:
Well I guess I'll actually try to answer with something other than "get a converter" :( Basically you are limited but not necessarily sol. Grab a 212/218 .522/.529 114 lsa from Comp Cams to start, or check out some of the vendors for something similar. Then grab some pushrods, 915 or 918 or equivalent valve springs with new retainers, and grab a new timing chain while you're at it. Make sure your oil pump is good and replace the o ring with a GM o ring, not just one you can find (for the oil pick-up tube). Obviously don't reuse any gaskets and make sure you get the pre load right. Stock rockers are fine. This cam will work with stock manifolds and stock stall without pcm tuning. Obviously tuning is always a good idea and headers are gonna do nothing but help you.

As far a a converter, your dad is old school and nothing wrong with that. Your trans won't take heat and extended rpm for any length of time without a good cooler, and most guys have succes with this. If you're like me and don't want to worry about your trans, just wait until she needs to be rebuilt and get the whole kit n kaboodle at once. Built trans, trangs go shift kit, 3400-4000 stall converter (pay the extra and don't buy cheap) and a good cooler. It's funny that modifying the engine is such a waste of time to so many on here if you're in an auto. Do something along the lines of what I said, and when you get your stall (and you will...;) ) you'll be happy with your setup. Grow into it all you want.

The main thing hindering your setup will be that your cam selection will be limited to smaller cams, and that's ok. Just know that a converter will do more for your car than any cam will as far as et is concerned. But don't worry, some say it's a waste of time to cam without a stall, it is not. A stall can be added at any time and should really be used in conjunction with a good shift kit if you want the kind of feel that I do. DOn't over cam (don't want it pushing through the brakes at stoplights-hence the stall), get a decent tune, and plan on getting a stall as soon as you can :). If you want a track car...then you are plain stupid not to get a good converter. However, a good daily driver can be optimized just fine with bolt ons and a mild cam. If you are doing any rolling starts, the cam is going to help (assuming it is setup right). JUst don't expect the '60 times and et that other guys are getting with stall/drs. Hope this helps and fits within your parameters.

You can stop fuckin with me. I don't know what my car will run. I'm trying to make an educated guess based off other peoples cars. But that guy prob doesn't even have a car so what did u guys say? 13.1?

Dude, the reason people are fuckin with you is because you have made way too many threads asking the same questions. And take it from me, unless you have thick skin you might want to find another LS site because people on here can and will be brutally honest with you.

Another thing, you are bench racing. There is no way to predict what your car will run no matter what. Within a full second probably yes. EVERY CAR AND TRACK IS DIFFERENT. There is no way to accurately predict what it will run. I guarantee if you have never drag raced before you WILL most likely fuck up the launch. I'm betting a 14 your first time out.

Just food for thought. Read the forums, don't ask the same questions over and over again. There's stickys in every section for a reason. Just trying to help you out.

Fair enough. We can't get a hold of Justune so I probably wont be going to the track tomorrow... We are going to have my dads mechanic who has been drag racing for years drive it the first few times out so we can see what it will do. After all, I am only 15.

Was that guys first 12 second pass really all stock?

Was that guys first 12 second pass really all stock?

It's not unheard of in a stock LS1. However it happens way less than people make it out to.

Oh ok... So if my trans am doesn't have radials yet and the weather is going to be in the 90's, I can expect 13's but that doesn't mean my car can't go faster lol.

Oh ok... So if my trans am doesn't have radials yet and the weather is going to be in the 90's, I can expect 13's but that doesn't mean my car can't go faster lol.

Correct.

Fair enough. We can't get a hold of Justune so I probably wont be going to the track tomorrow... We are going to have my dads mechanic who has been drag racing for years drive it the first few times out so we can see what it will do. After all, I am only 15.

Ahhh, now I see why your post's are the way they are. Do some time USING THE SEARCH FEATURE.

stall that car, i have gotten use to my 3600 stall on my dd camaro.

Was that guys first 12 second pass really all stock?

In a 6 speed with an awesome driver and a sticky track and likely in some cool air. It is not a normal occurrence.

The automatic is limited that unlike the manual you can't just launch from a higher rpm if the track will hold it. That's where a high stall torque converter comes into play.

If you're 15, disregard the advice to get a stall. You need to learn to drive and respect the car first. A high stall 350+hp car is not the best learning tool.

A stall should be the 1st mod you do to a auto.Its the best bang for the dollar..What else out the will knock off .6 or more off your time but nitrous.

In a 6 speed with an awesome driver and a sticky track and likely in some cool air. It is not a normal occurrence.

The automatic is limited that unlike the manual you can't just launch from a higher rpm if the track will hold it. That's where a high stall torque converter comes into play.

If you're 15, disregard the advice to get a stall. You need to learn to drive and respect the car first. A high stall 350+hp car is not the best learning tool.

Agreed^^. Your 15. You can't even drive the car yet. You should be happy you have the car. Im guessing your dad is funding all of this for you.. I'd give it a year and than start modding it...

I nearly got myself into a lot of trouble with my 350 in the Chevelle when I was 16. It might have made 270rwhp in my then 3900# car on a good day. If I had ~325rwhp in a car that weighs about 700 lbs less I probably would have totaled it.

I don't know why people in here keep suggesting a stall right off the bat, 12's aren't hard to break into if the car is driven properly. An LS1 car with just a lid and catback would be perfectly capable of dipping into at least high 12's, whether it's an M6 or A4.

But, your priorities will change once you start driving the car around, none of this 1/4 mile stuff will matter anymore for a little while. Once you get it out on the road and really get into it, the stock power will feel impressive.

I don't know why people in here keep suggesting a stall right off the bat, 12's aren't hard to break into if the car is driven properly. An LS1 car with just a lid and catback would be perfectly capable of dipping into at least high 12's, whether it's an M6 or A4.
But, your priorities will change once you start driving the car around, none of this 1/4 mile stuff will matter anymore for a little while. Once you get it out on the road and really get into it, the stock power will feel impressive.

A lid and catback is not going to get an A4 into the 12's. You are 100% wrong.

A lid and catback is not going to get an A4 into the 12's. You are 100% wrong.

It of course wouldn't be the norm, I'll say that, but how do you figure that it isn't possible? Over the years, I've seen many claims on this very site of people being able to get pretty much bottom 13's out of stock A4 cars with the right weather and when traction permits. I can for sure see those couple of mods pushing one over the edge into high 12 territory, especially with 3.23's. I will say again, it wouldn't be the norm but I can see it being possible.

It of course wouldn't be the norm, I'll say that, but how do you figure that it isn't possible? Over the years, I've seen many claims on this very site of people being able to get pretty much bottom 13's out of stock A4 cars with the right weather and when traction permits. I can for sure see those couple of mods pushing one over the edge into high 12 territory, especially with 3.23's. I will say again, it wouldn't be the norm but I can see it being possible.

I wish I raced at the same track as you.

you said it would be perfectly capable. I ran a very good time of 13.5@103 bone stock. With paper filter 0 bolt-ons one stock 245 tires all the way around. Only thing my car had was heavier z06 rims. This was in 1500ft d/a. Say you run at sea level with cool air. That is a 13.3 with the perfect car in that weather. Your not going to get 3 tenths with a catback and lid. Your going to get a 1 tenth. 13.2 being about the best possible. Most don't even run mid 13's stock. No your not going to run 12.9 with lid and catback. It is not going to happen.

I wish I raced at the same track as you.

???

you said it would be perfectly capable. I ran a very good time of 13.5@103 bone stock. With paper filter 0 bolt-ons one stock 245 tires all the way around. Only thing my car had was heavier z06 rims. This was in 1500ft d/a. Say you run at sea level with cool air. That is a 13.3 with the perfect car in that weather. Your not going to get 3 tenths with a catback and lid. Your going to get a 1 tenth. 13.2 being about the best possible. Most don't even run mid 13's stock. No your not going to run 12.9 with lid and catback. It is not going to happen.

I see your point, however mid 13's is about average from what I've seen, that's about the norm for most A4 cars.

Also, actually I was able to dig up a thread I read a very long time ago on here when I was a lurker. This sort of proves my point on this whole thing.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/12-second-club/967919-lid-catback-ws6-a4-12s-w-video.html

I had a 2800 vigilanti in my goat and i could barely tell the difference from stock to that.

???



I see your point, however mid 13's is about average from what I've seen, that's about the norm for most A4 cars.

Also, actually I was able to dig up a thread I read a very long time ago on here when I was a lurker. This sort of proves my point on this whole thing.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/12-second-club/967919-lid-catback-ws6-a4-12s-w-video.html

God damn are you kidding? HOW does this prove your point? This proves MY point. It ran a 12.9 with w/ lid, ram air, catback, and tune. I took the mods directly from the video. Tune alone is worth 3 tenths.

God damn are you kidding? HOW does this prove your point? This proves MY point. It ran a 12.9 with w/ lid, ram air, catback, and tune. I took the mods directly from the video. Tune alone is worth 3 tenths.

Since when does a tune on a basically stock car net someone 3 tenths? What is that even good for, like 10 rwhp or so? :eyes:

Since when does a tune on a basically stock car net someone 3 tenths? What is that even good for, like 10 rwhp or so? :eyes:

Are you kidding? A tune is easily worth 2-3 tenths. Not to mention ram air is worth a tenth also. Out of a good mail order tune you should see about 20hp. My car felt like a whole new car after the tune. Roll your eyes all you want. You know im right. You posted a car that ran a 12.9. It had a tune and ram air. And he had the most perfect 60ft I have seen a auto run. 1.95 60ft with stock stall is very very very good. That is the best you will see. It did not run a 12.9 with catback and lid. It ran a 12.9 with catback, lid, tune, and ram air. Damn newbie's trying to argue lately :eyes:

Are you kidding? A tune is easily worth 2-3 tenths. Not to mention ram air is worth a tenth also. Out of a good mail order tune you should see about 20hp. My car felt like a whole new car after the tune. Roll your eyes all you want. You know im right. You posted a car that ran a 12.9. It had a tune and ram air. And he had the most perfect 60ft I have seen a auto run. 1.95 60ft with stock stall is very very very good. That is the best you will see. It did not run a 12.9 with catback and lid. It ran a 12.9 with catback, lid, tune, and ram air. Damn newbie's trying to argue lately :eyes:

Yeah, you think you're right. You do understand that the particular WS6 in that thread I posted only picked up around 8 rwhp from that tune right? While a good tune is great and it is beneficial, I doubt that small of a power gain is going to net someone 2-3 tenths in the 1/4. Also, the ram air mod, it's great and it's free, but it barley gives you any gains at all from reading the feedback from these guys on here, so it's not like that made a whopping difference either.

Keep in mind, I did say running those type of times with those mods is NOT THE NORM, I'm just trying to prove that it is possible with a pretty much stock car. Hell, even if it does take a little more than a lid and catback, throw in a cheap mail order tune and go ahead and do your free ram air mod, boom you're there. Not really a big deal.

Yeah, you think you're right. You do understand that the particular WS6 in that thread I posted only picked up around 8 rwhp from that tune right? While a good tune is great and it is beneficial, I doubt that small of a power gain is going to net someone 2-3 tenths in the 1/4. Also, the ram air mod, it's great and it's free, but it barley gives you any gains at all from reading the feedback from these guys on here, so it's not like that made a whopping difference either.

Keep in mind, I did say running those type of times with those mods is NOT THE NORM, I'm just trying to prove that it is possible with a pretty much stock car. Hell, even if it does take a little more than a lid and catback, throw in a cheap mail order tune and go ahead and do your free ram air mod, boom you're there. Not really a big deal.

WRONG again. You will not get 8hp from a tune. You will get 20hp from a decent tune. Not to mention when someone tunes it they usually bump up the shift quickness and stuff. A tune is one of the most beneficial mods you can do. It is worth ATLEAST 2 tenths. And I have the ram air it has been proven for atleast a tenth and 2 mph.. I have a friend with hp tuners that tunes tons of f-body ls1's. I know what I'm saying and I have actually worked with tuning and have the parts you think give you these minimal gains.

WRONG again. You will not get 8hp from a tune. You will get 20hp from a decent tune. Not to mention when someone tunes it they usually bump up the shift quickness and stuff. A tune is one of the most beneficial mods you can do. It is worth ATLEAST 2 tenths. And I have the ram air it has been proven for atleast a tenth and 2 mph.. I have a friend with hp tuners that tunes tons of f-body ls1's. I know what I'm saying and I have actually worked with tuning and have the parts you think give you these minimal gains.

Dude, I understand the greatness of a good tune, I have NOTHING against them, they are beneficial for almost everything. However, I was referring specifically to the car we have at hand here.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/961413-lid-catback-01-ws6-a4-results.html
^^^^
If you look at the dyno sheet, if I'm reading it correctly, it basically says as his baseline numbers, he made 305.8 rwhp, after the tune, he made 313.3 rwhp. That right there is about an 8 rwhp gain which is where I got that number from. Now, I know that a tune is beneficial in other ways than just making more power, but that just plain isn't enough to get a 2-3 tenth gain in the 1/4 no matter how you slice it. Keep in mind, I am by NO means saying that all tunes will only get you 8 rwhp or so because that is not true. Also, the Ram Air mod is free and it doesn't seem like too difficult of a process. So, if it really does give you an extra tenth or so and some more MPH, great, do it, it's not that big of a deal.

Dude, I understand the greatness of a good tune, I have NOTHING against them, they are beneficial for almost everything. However, I was referring specifically to the car we have at hand here.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/961413-lid-catback-01-ws6-a4-results.html
^^^^
If you look at the dyno sheet, if I'm reading it correctly, it basically says as his baseline numbers, he made 305.8 rwhp, after the tune, he made 313.3 rwhp. That right there is about an 8 rwhp gain which is where I got that number from. Now, I know that a tune is beneficial in other ways than just making more power, but that just plain isn't enough to get a 2-3 tenth gain in the 1/4 no matter how you slice it. Keep in mind, I am by NO means saying that all tunes will only get you 8 rwhp or so because that is not true. Also, the Ram Air mod is free and it doesn't seem like too difficult of a process. So, if it really does give you an extra tenth or so and some more MPH, great, do it, it's not that big of a deal.

If your saying a good tune isn't worth 2-3 tenths than your wrong. If your saying worlds worst 8hp gain tune is not worth 2-3 tenths than yea thats right. His tune was good for a tenth and his ram air should have been worth a tenth. That is a 13.1 without those 2 things. I still don't see how he cut a 1.95 60ft

A lid and catback is not going to get an A4 into the 12's. You are 100% wrong.

1998 trans am 100% full weight. Lid and loudmouth, no other mods not ported tb not free mods etc.
Ran 8.4@84 with 1.9 short time on wore out crap street tires. That should have got me very very close(most likely a low 12.9x), if not in the 12s. If it happened to be an 01-02 with an ls6 it would have been easy... Or a low option z28.
It is possible but not likely.

My car bone stock went 13.62 and I did SLP Y,SLP LM1,SLP Lid,K&N,Free Ram Air,P&P TB,Bump Stop Mod,Smooth bellows,I went a best of a 13.23 Both in 200-500 feet above sea level..

I have been running it on bad knock sensors also. I heard that can be a 30hp loss..

My friends 02 TA M6 went 12.80 /109mph w/Lid and Nittos w/1.9 60ft. Weighed 3800lbs.
Mine 98 never came close to that. I only got 13.30 w/Lid/LongTubes/NoCats/Street Tires.

Small cam and converter will get mid 12s easy. If you are not allowed a stall, then just spray it and be done with it.

My car bone stock went 13.62 and I did SLP Y,SLP LM1,SLP Lid,K&N,Free Ram Air,P&P TB,Bump Stop Mod,Smooth bellows,I went a best of a 13.23 Both in 200-500 feet above sea level..

I have been running it on bad knock sensors also. I heard that can be a 30hp loss..


THATS WHAT WAS WRONG WITH MY CAR! God i felt stupid i couldn't think of what was wrong. We had the knock sensors fixed when we put the headers on. It supposed to be in the 70's wendesday night. thats when we are taking it to the track. Apparently my dads main focus is to make sure the car is driveable and tuned before we out radials on :eyes: so i will prob be in low 13's until we start bearing down on it and until i get radials.

I have a feeling these first couple of times my car will be in low 13's cause i dont have drag radials. But if it runs low 13's without them, image what it will run with them. And with all the mods i have i feel pretty good about hitting 12.8 or 12.7 if im lucky.

I have a feeling these first couple of times my car will be in low 13's cause i dont have drag radials. But if it runs low 13's without them, image what it will run with them. And with all the mods i have i feel pretty good about hitting 12.8 or 12.7 if im lucky.

I put 15" 275 M/T DR's and it slowed my car down. But I have stock stall and shitty 273 gears..But i have a Yank SS4000 stall and 373 gears in my room ready to be installed.

alltitude of track is 798 and i will be running on a sunny, high 70 low 80 degree day.

alltitude of track is 798 and i will be running on a sunny, high 70 low 80 degree day.

The DA still can be like 2000 + though gotta see what the Barometric Pressure is and the Relative Humidty the day you run and around the time you ran your pass.. use this to figure out the DA..

http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-altitude-calculator.php

the cam is probably harder on the stock trans than a tc.

Are you kidding? A tune is easily worth 2-3 tenths. Not to mention ram air is worth a tenth also. Out of a good mail order tune you should see about 20hp. My car felt like a whole new car after the tune. Roll your eyes all you want. You know im right. You posted a car that ran a 12.9. It had a tune and ram air. And he had the most perfect 60ft I have seen a auto run. 1.95 60ft with stock stall is very very very good. That is the best you will see. It did not run a 12.9 with catback and lid. It ran a 12.9 with catback, lid, tune, and ram air. Damn newbie's trying to argue lately :eyes:

He isn't all wrong, and makes some valid points actually. You are the one with the cookie cutter approach apparently :jest:. You make some pretty "as a matter of fact" statements, while giving little thought to the other dynamics that often may come into play imo.

Also, contrary to what you stated earlier, I didn't think that most mail order tunes (since that is what was being talked about) altered the shift points/firmness/or quickness at all :confused:. I could be wrong here, I just didn't think most tuners touched that unless asked to. Torque management on the other hand is a whole other story.

Jerk :P jk.

the cam is probably harder on the stock trans than a tc.

Although increased power plays a role in killing a trans, heat and rpm (higher rev limit etc.) are much harder on it IMO. A cooler will help with this. I'm not sure if that's even what you meant though?

God this low 13's is bumming me out. But if its like 70 degree weather out, and I have street tires, I might run 12.8's... hmmm... :bs:

personally I wouldnt let my 15 y.o. kid run a car at the track that was capable of 12's WITHOUT dr's - its a safety concern - tell your mom your concerned about no dr's and hitting the wall , maybe she will buy you some , or grandma , somebody must believe traction is important to safety !!

just an angle for you to try lol:D

God this low 13's is bumming me out. But if its like 70 degree weather out, and I have street tires, I might run 12.8's... hmmm... :bs:
Lol, I wouldn't hold my breath.
personally I wouldnt let my 15 y.o. kid run a car at the track that was capable of 12's WITHOUT dr's - its a safety concern - tell your mom your concerned about no dr's and hitting the wall , maybe she will buy you some , or grandma , somebody must believe traction is important to safety !!

just an angle for you to try lol:DI like that angle :D. I personally would do a 12 bolt if that was the approach. I agree that if it's a track car drs are a must for safety, and to get the best 60ft. and et. If he does any corner carving he might stick with streets, but aren't there et streets that would provide the best of both worlds? Just wondering if anyone has any experience with a hybrid compound?

I ran 12.976 at 107.01 with a 2.038 60ft.

1999 TA A4 Loaded with AC 3:23 gears 125,000 miles

LT's,Lid,Free Mods,LS6 Int. rearseat and spare delete,Hoosier DR's and Frost Tune(not retuned for LS6 int yet)

DA was 1075 or so.

It can be done without a TQ Con but that would make it so much easier

Yea the higher rev limit from a cam will be more harmful than a mild tc

this is fucking bull shit. My dad had the fastest car in town when he was my age. I want to be a mechanic, so why not let me get parts, learn how to make a car faster, and have fun instead of this shitty attitude?? i don't see how he won't let me mod the shit outta the thing. His car ran low 14's in the 1960's. My car will be running tenths away from that time.

14 seconds.. Faster we in town... Population 200?

he said 14.60 was the fastest he ever got it. could of been 13.60. He had a 66 gto with 3-two's, 4 speed, reworked distributor, and something else for traction so he hooked and went. But apparently he beat new corvettes and hemi cudas.

this is fucking bull shit. My dad had the fastest car in town when he was my age. I want to be a mechanic, so why not let me get parts, learn how to make a car faster, and have fun instead of this shitty attitude?? i don't see how he won't let me mod the shit outta the thing. His car ran low 14's in the 1960's. My car will be running tenths away from that time.


I need to be happy with what I got. on the street, a low 12 second TA like mine will be smoking kids my age who don't know how to drive their 2011 camaros and 5.0's

So what does the car run?

A low 13 car will beat most things.. a low 12 car with radials will destroy 99% of kids your age car. as in not even a race.

I need to be happy with what I got. on the street, a low 12 second TA like mine will be smoking kids my age who don't know how to drive their 2011 camaros and 5.0's

you should be; I was driving a 1986 cutlass supreme at your age with an olds 307... I would have killed for a new (at the time) GTA with the 305 TPI.

Yea the higher rev limit from a cam will be more harmful than a mild tcTrue, but any cam that would work sans stall converter, will also not need a bump in rev limit. Most of these small cams make power throughout the mid-upper rpm range but fall off shortly after redline, and they do this without losing much (if any) low end grunt. That is the appeal of a small cam, minimal tuning, stock converter, stock manifolds (sometimes*), and stock rev limit (sometimes A couple hundred rpm increase can still help though depending on cam selection). I still would make sure my cam was worth it however, if I'm going to go to all the trouble solely for the sake of camming it I'd recommend all supporting mods first. I understand not wanting headers, but power will be left on the table and cam selection will be greatly limited.

you should be; I was driving a 1986 cutlass supreme at your age with an olds 307... I would have killed for a new (at the time) GTA with the 305 TPI. Lol :nod: . I was driving an '89 Sunbird 5 speed with a sunroof! Thought I was the shit, at least it was a Pontiac ;)

A low 13 car will beat most things.. a low 12 car with radials will destroy 99% of kids your age car. as in not even a race.
This.
I need to be happy with what I got. on the street, a low 12 second TA like mine will be smoking kids my age who don't know how to drive their 2011 camaros and 5.0's

If they don't know how to drive it doesn't matter so much what they are behind the wheel of. Your car may not be a Viper, but don't underestimate what it will do on the streets with a decent driver.

A low 13 car will beat most things.. a low 12 car with radials will destroy 99% of kids your age car. as in not even a race.

:nod:
And contrary to internet bullshit, you won't see many '10-'11 5.0 or SS cars running 12 anything stock. With not so great drivers they will be mid13s.

On the street most will be slower due to launch issues. Learn to drive your car and make it hook and you will be golden.

Yeah traction Is the name of the game. My final goal is 12.9 with my car. That way is i run low 13's I won't be dissapointe and if I run 12.7's I will be happy. So 12.90's. Final answer

Take it to the track to see where your at...

imo its your car and buying one bolt on part will get you where you want to be, go with a ss3600 yank , a converter is the best bang for your buck period.besides keeping your motor stock it will last longer. i am a dad and gave my son a 2800 stall for his 02 chevy truck with a 5.3 litre and he gained 2 seconds in a 1/4

My 00 Formula went 12.7s @108 with a random tech cat back, prted MAF, lid, SLP ram air kit, Nittos and a HPP+ SFCs, LCAs and a PHB. Oh and plug wires lol. Thats all it took. With a stall it would have gone low 12s.

The obvious solution is N20 :D

I wouldn't waste time and money on baby cams to match your baby stock stall. Sure you can gain some HP but why spend the money twice? I mean you will eventually be 18 and in control of your own mods.

What I would do is every possible bolt-on other then the stall. lid, ram air kit, LT headers, ORY, ls6 or fast 90 intake, ported TB, UD pulley, 3.73 gears, EWP and a dyno tune to find every last possible HP. Then I would do all the weight reduction you are willing to tolerate and add mickey thompson street radials. Then I'd go to the track on a nice cool fall day.

The obvious solution is N20 :D

I wouldn't waste time and money on baby cams to match your baby stock stall. Sure you can gain some HP but why spend the money twice? I mean you will eventually be 18 and in control of your own mods.

What I would do is every possible bolt-on other then the stall. lid, ram air kit, LT headers, ORY, ls6 or fast 90 intake, ported TB, UD pulley, 3.73 gears, EWP and a dyno tune to find every last possible HP. Then I would do all the weight reduction you are willing to tolerate and add mickey thompson street radials. Then I'd go to the track on a nice cool fall day.

I have the lid, headers, ls6 intake. I still need a porter tb and under drive pulley but I heard the jump from my 3.23's to 3.73's won't be that much but we are talking about making as much hp as possible so maybe. If I run a 13.5 or something I might ask for a 50 shot. But it was 50 degrees at the track last night and the cars were running good

I have the lid, headers, ls6 intake. I still need a porter tb and under drive pulley but I heard the jump from my 3.23's to 3.73's won't be that much but we are talking about making as much hp as possible so maybe. If I run a 13.5 or something I might ask for a 50 shot. But it was 50 degrees at the track last night and the cars were running good

The difference between 3.23's and 3.73's, while not earth shattering, is most definately worth while. You will 60' better and thus ET lower. If you want to try and hit 12's on a stock stall then I highly recommend you consider 3.73 gears. Besides, they will become more useful down the line when you do have a stall and a cam.

My old 3.23's killed my 60' and trap speed. I switched to 4.10's and I dropped .3 from my ET and added almost 2 mph to my trap. But my cam and stall combo was screaming for a gear swap.

Sounds like I need 3.73's and since I won't have MT et tires my first time I can assume I will have a better time with them.

Your times most likely will be worse with 373s than 323s with street tires.

For the money spent, imo, that swap isnt worth it.

It'll be worth it if he gets 3.73's and drag radials. The gears will kind of help make up for the lack of stall speed and STR. He's gonna need all the help he can get if he wants 12's on the stock stall.

God it's killing me. I cannot wait till Wednesday to see what the car runs. But yes if I run a 12.9 to 13.1 which is what we all have said, I will be the happiest fucking kid ever.

I can assume If I run 13.2 or 13.3 with street tires I might run a better time with MTs. I'm getting ahead of myself. Like I said, I'm excited.

I wouldn't expect any more than .1 from that gear swap.

I think the gear swap could get him closer to .2 with full traction. That would be huge if he runs a 13.1 @ 105 like I did with boltons, 3.23's and stock stall. Of course I didn't get gears right away but instead went a TCI 3500 and a dyno tune. Then I ran 12.5 @ 109 :secret2:

I have never seen a gear swap net that much with proof of it being from gears.
I have seen proof of it not netting anything however.

I have never seen a gear swap net that much with proof of it being from gears.
I have seen proof of it not netting anything however.

I've seen it first hand on my car. After my cam and intake I was running 12.1 @ 113. To say I was pissed would be a gross understatement considering I had previously run a best of 12.4 @ 109 with just boltons and a stall. So I got on the phone with Mike @ New Era Performance. He in turn got on the phone with Ed Curtis who custom built my cam.

Ed tells Mike that the 3.23 gears are absolutely killing me. At first I didn't believe him. It's not like I had 2.73's. I figured 3.23's were an all round good gear even for my setup. But Ed insisted that I would be very happy if I went with 3.73's and even happier with 4.10's. So I finally caved in and bought the 4.10's.

I take the car to the same track exactly one week later. I ran the same mods, same tune and same tires. Everything was the same except for addition of 4.10 gears. First pass was 11.8 @ 115. After that I was hitting 11.7 all night long! The following week I had better air and ran 11.6's all night and eventually hit my best of 11.5 @ 117 late in the evening.

Now I'm not saying the swap will gain him what I gained. He'll probably only gain .15 if I had to guess. But the car will pull a little harder and he will have better gears that his mods can grow into, aka cam, heads, intake.

Alright. Last time. I did the DA calculator for KCIR. It says its 1025. So with that, 60 degree weather, headers, lid, street tires, poly trans mount, ls6 intake, bigger MAF, 3,23's, badass custom tune, and new plugs and coil packs... will i hit 13.0 or 12.9? like i said, last time. Just tell me and I will shut up and get out of your way

Da of the two weeks where you did the before and after?

mother fuck firstls1, you are asking us to tell you within .1 of what you will run.

Nobody fucking knows and at this point nobody cares, STOP!

You won't get far acting this way.. It is very annoying. You have literally asked this same exact thing 25+ times, half saying its the last time.
I don't feel bad for saying what I said how I said it, I have been just as helpful, if not more helpful, than anybody else.

What do you mean? I just did the DA for 3:55pm today at the track. It was 1025. I'm sure it was better last night with cold air.

Ok. I apologize. I will get out of everybodys way now.

Alright. Last time. I did the DA calculator for KCIR. It says its 1025. So with that, 60 degree weather, headers, lid, street tires, poly trans mount, ls6 intake, bigger MAF, 3,23's, badass custom tune, and new plugs and coil packs... will i hit 13.0 or 12.9? like i said, last time. Just tell me and I will shut up and get out of your way

Don't get your hopes up. The street tires are probably going to KILL you. Too many times I've seen 2.1-2.4 60's because street tires just could not hook. But I did get a 2.0 out of street tires once and I've heard of a few getting 1.9's. It's just rare is all I'm saying. But good luck!

Lemons12, The temperature was pretty much the same, of course I realize that doesn't mean the DA's were equal. But my experience with that track and WNY weather leads me to believe that at least 80% of that gain both ET and trap was directly from the gears. And the real bitch of it is that Ed Curtis called it. He said that I can expect a huge ET drop and at least +2 trap increase if I would swap to 4.10's.

I'm never doubting that man again :cheers:

What would some 4.10's do? Ik I can kiss gas mileage goodbye.

With hard proof and gears being the only mod, the most gain from gears I have ever seen is .1-.15 max.. Usually originally a 273 car since they have the 3rd gear lag.

I would love to see proof otherwise, I will run 323s or 342s in all cars I own until I go with a nice rear until then.

Don't get your hopes up. The street tires are probably going to KILL you. Too many times I've seen 2.1-2.4 60's because street tires just could not hook. But I did get a 2.0 out of street tires once and I've heard of a few getting 1.9's. It's just rare is all I'm saying. But good luck!

Lemons12, The temperature was pretty much the same, of course I realize that doesn't mean the DA's were equal. But my experience with that track and WNY weather leads me to believe that at least 80% of that gain both ET and trap was directly from the gears. And the real bitch of it is that Ed Curtis called it. He said that I can expect a huge ET drop and at least +2 trap increase if I would swap to 4.10's.

I'm never doubting that man again :cheers:


Ok so with that DA and some Mickey Thompson et street radials with all my current mods can I touch 12.9 or 13.0?

What would some 4.10's do? Ik I can kiss gas mileage goodbye.

They wouldn't be good for a street car. The ONLY reason I put them in mine is because my car is track only these days and Ed swore they would get me the times my setup was capable of. The problem with 4.10's in an auto is they kill your gas mileage and you top out third gear in the 120's. I think my car would top out right now at 125.

I would go 3.73's because it's enough gear to get some ET gain now while keeping gas mileage & top speed reasonable. But you will need drag radials or like lemons12 said, the gears will hurt your times because you won't find any traction on the launch.

Ok so with that DA and some Mickey Thompson et street radials with all my current mods can I touch 12.9 or 13.0?
And you just crossed trolling territory.
They wouldn't be good for a street car. The ONLY reason I put them in mine is because my car is track only these days and Ed swore they would get me the times my setup was capable of. The problem with 4.10's in an auto is they kill your gas mileage and you top out third gear in the 120's. I think my car would top out right now at 125.

I would go 3.73's because it's enough gear to get some ET gain now while keeping gas mileage & top speed reasonable. But you will need drag radials or like lemons12 said, the gears will hurt your times because you won't find any traction on the launch.

I topped 3rd out at high 125s with 410s and a 26".

Ok so with that DA and some Mickey Thompson et street radials with all my current mods can I touch 12.9 or 13.0?

16-20 psi, burnout for 5 solid seconds of seeing smoke and race with about a quarter of a tank of gas. No spare and jack either. Then, yeah you got a legit shot at 12.9-13.0. At that point it'll all depend on how strong your car is. Some ls1's run stronger then others in stock and bolt on form.

Good luck.

Ok. I apologize. I will get out of everybodys way now.

Yes. Please let this thread die until you actually run your car.

And you just crossed trolling territory..


This. 6 threads and 200 something posts all from bench racing.

IB4 he runs a 13.6 and comes back crying.

IB4 he runs a 14.6 and comes back crying.

Fixed.

Fixed.

LOL I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, I mean it is an Auto hit the gas and go!

Ib4 he runs 12.anything and tries to throw it in my face and talk about how his mechanics are all so knowing. Lol

Ha nope... i really won't. I understand how im annoying as hell and ask the same damn questions over and over and i apologized for that. I will post what I run on here this coming wednesday. If i don't make it to the track wednesday, then i will post the times friday.

You apologized, then asked the same question the following post.:bang:

Ha nope... i really won't. I understand how im annoying as hell and ask the same damn questions over and over and i apologized for that. I will post what I run on here this coming wednesday. If i don't make it to the track wednesday, then i will post the times friday.

The times that you run? Or the mechanic who is driving your car runs?

I plan on posting every single time that the car runs. thats with the mechanic, my dad, then me. Yeah, i fucked up in LS1Tech. Sorry :/

I plan on posting every single time that the car runs. thats with the mechanic, my dad, then me. Yeah, i fucked up in LS1Tech. Sorry :/

Take pics or video

Take pics or video

haha ok. I will take pics of the time slips