Automotive News, Media & Press - Camaro Chief Engineer says "You're Welcome" to Ford Mustang fans

"For Mustang fans, you're welcome. Clearly the Camaro has encouraged Ford to throw everything they can at us."

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/11/al-oppenehieser-camaro-zl1-.jpg

Camaro Nation:

As you know, the blogs lit up with the announcement of the new 650-horsepower Mustang GT500, and I wanted to give you my perspective on the latest challenge from Dearborn.

The Mustang has been playing catch up since the moment the fifth-gen Camaro arrived in 2009. Since then, Camaro has been the best-selling sports car in America, indicating that consumers know which car offers the best performance, style and safety.

It is no coincidence that Mustang has introduced three 100-horsepower increases to keep pace with Camaro: First their V-6 was bumped to 305; then their V-8 went to 412, and now the GT500.

Even with the 100-hp increase, the 2013 GT500 will still not match the technology and sophistication of the 2012 Camaro ZL1.

The days of "no replacement for displacement," are over, and it's not enough to be fast in a straight line. With the Camaro ZL1, we set out to deliver integrated performance, and be equally good at acceleration, braking, grip, and turning. As you will soon see, that's why the Camaro ZL1 will set the performance benchmark for the segment.

Our approach was to make every Camaro ZL1 fully track-capable, from the factory. As we announced today, the ZL1 Coupe will start at $54,995 with standard Magnetic Ride Control, standard Performance Traction Management, and standard track-capable equipment such as a rear-differential cooler, brake cooling ducts, and an engine and transmission cooler.

None of our customers will have to buy extra options – or modify their ZL1 – for track-day usage. That is not the case for the current GT500, or their new car.

For Mustang fans, you're welcome. Clearly the Camaro has encouraged Ford to throw everything they can at us.

For Camaro fans, trust me, we are always listening to your feedback, and working hard to keep the Camaro in the lead.

Al O.

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/410/12chcamzl1ovrpowertrain.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/12chcamzl1ovrpowertrain.jpg/)
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beautiful car.

This model is pretty darn slick.

I'm really liking it, even though it still looks like they've cut off Wall-e's head & stuck it to the dash.

"Its your move?"

Wasn't this in response to the GT500 bumping power?

"Its your move?"

Wasn't this in response to the GT500 bumping power?

you read my mind dude.

Pathetic response. They are basically accepting that Mustang is WINNING performance wise. Defending themselves with the current sales record look really weak in the eyes of true enthusiasts.

Sick car, It's nice to see Ford and Chevy both have a power monster on the street what good time to be alive right now. I hope in 10 years or so I can afford one of them...:jest:

"Its your move?"

Wasn't this in response to the GT500 bumping power?


The picture is old, it's them saying you have a choice in which Transmission you want.

http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-zl1-sports-car/

Almost halfway down.

The picture is old, it's them saying you have a choice in which Transmission you want.


That makes a lot more sense.

GM needs to drop this lame gimmicky advertising and build a better car.

GM needs to drop this lame gimmicky advertising and build a better car.

The photo is promoting transmission choice from their website and they already did build a better car, a completely rounded one.

They already did, a completely rounded one.

Completely subjective and judging from the responses in these threads, most people would prefer the GT500.

This press release screams damage control, along w/ "challenging" Ford at the 'Ring. GM looks desperate; they don't seem so sure if their car is actually better themselves(better in performance that is, they did bring up sales numbers lol)

I cant wait to see one of these in person! If i had 50k laying around this would probably be my first purchase!

Agree, not the best response. Perhaps GM could throw something comparable back (they already have the engine .... nudge nudge).

However, I don't remember everyone screaming at Ford when the 5.0 bowed out in 95 to bring the 4.6 2Vs that barely made over 200hp. They handidly out-sold F-bodies and the performance segment (the small group of people on forum boards like this), modified their cars (as they/we will with these new models) to reach their hp needs.

Car looks real good. However, to me, the engineer sounds a little scared and insecure about this whole thing.

Fantastic looking ride, for those that can afford it. As much as I like it Im still not completely sure I'd spend that kinda change on a Camaro.

The days of "no replacement for displacement," are over....WTF, seriously??? so why stuff a 6.2L under the hood when LS motors started out with the 5.7L then got bumped up in displacement over the years....not to mention the Zo6 has a 427. mustangs have the 5.0 and 5.8, and still handing the camaro its ass with a smaller motor. i guess GM has a hard time accepting the old saying of " take your ass kicking like a man"...i really am turned off by the way GM is handling the new gt500!

I hate to admit it, but the GT500 would still spank the ZL1. Oh! maybe GM would build a real GT500 stomper once they get their 2nd government bail-out . :nod:

I hate to admit it, but the GT500 would still spank the ZL1. Oh! maybe GM would build a real GT500 stomper once they get their 2nd government bail-out . :nod:

In a straight line, likely. I agree with the chief engineer though. Hell, any monkey can make a car go fast down the quarter and any of the new top shelf muscle/pony cars are going to satisfy from a stoplight. After seeing the ZL1's "ring" video though, its clear this camaro is different, much like the BOSS over a GT.
But then again, this is America and 1/4 mile is king. That being said, the auto ZL1 is going to be tough to beat in a random street race from a dig.

The Base/GT Mustang looks better than the Base/SS Camaro, but the ZL1 looks 10x better than the GT500. The Updated styling of the 2011 Mustang gets diluted in the GT500, looking quite the same since 05 IIRC.

Give me the ZL1. 580hp is enough for what I would use it for. If it ever starts to feel slow, I can't imagine 700 fwhp being too difficult to obtain.

Dam Nice Car-Oh Yhea, the fight is on!

Go get em camaro zl1!

LOL

If Ford threw everything they had it would be a 7.0L 4V with a 4+liter blower making 850++
He should be thanking the Mustang that he even has a job, if it wasn't for the 64 and 05 there would be no Camaro PERIOD.

This is gonna be fun.

trollin, trollin, trollin, trollhide!

LOL

If Ford threw everything they had it would be a 7.0L 4V with a 4+liter blower making 850++
He should be thanking the Mustang that he even has a job, if it wasn't for the 64 and 05 there would be no Camaro PERIOD.

This is gonna be fun.

Your on the wrong site.



Anyway here is my take on this (as if anyone cares) this is the 2012 zl1 vs 2013 gt500 thats a year difference things could change between that time also gm could pull a little trick like maybe there horsepower rating is to the wheels? Just maybe. I'm really glad ford has stepped up from being beat on for YEARS why not let them have one? I don't know just throwing out wild ideas here as far as the bailout shit that has nothing to do with any of this shit
I still don't see the big deal about it so what if they took some money they paid it back can't tell me none of y'all have never took out a loan

The cars are being released the same year, what year they are called out as really doesn't matter. It still hasn't been proven that the ZL1 can keep up with the 2011-12 GT500. I just really hope this performance war keeps going until when the next gen smaller/lighter(hopefully MUCH lighter so it catches up to the Mustang) Camaro and smaller/lighter Mustang come out.

The cars are being released the same year, what year they are called out as really doesn't matter. It still hasn't been proven that the ZL1 can keep up with the 2011-12 GT500. I just really hope this performance war keeps going until when the next gen smaller/lighter(hopefully MUCH lighter so it catches up to the Mustang) Camaro and smaller/lighter Mustang come out.

Neither car is going to get significantly lighter, hardly any redesigned vehicle does in today's age.

In a straight line, likely. I agree with the chief engineer though. Hell, any monkey can make a car go fast down the quarter and any of the new top shelf muscle/pony cars are going to satisfy from a stoplight. After seeing the ZL1's "ring" video though, its clear this camaro is different, much like the BOSS over a GT.
But then again, this is America and 1/4 mile is king. That being said, the auto ZL1 is going to be tough to beat in a random street race from a dig.

ZL1s shouldn't have an issue with either type of racing.

It's precursor is the Cadillac CTS-V running a generation older magnetic ride, skinnier tires and the same powertrain with "only" 550hp and more weight. This is how it stacked up against the GT500.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW-qF_Xzjl4

I hate to admit it, but the GT500 would still spank the ZL1. Oh! maybe GM would build a real GT500 stomper once they get their 2nd government bail-out . :nod:

I think the ZL1 will be just fine. I also don't think anyone who buys this car will be disappointed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjy7vvH1Isk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=260FmmISHfg

Unless of course GM pumps up the power next model year. ;)

Neither car is going to get significantly lighter, hardly any redesigned vehicle does in today's age.

I know, I'm just hoping GM can catch up to Ford as they are already falling pretty far behind on the scale, and they are way too much bigger than the Mustang IMO. I doubt the next Mustang is going to be any more than 100lbs lighter than the current one, but it is going to be getting IRS so that's a big plus. Hopefully the Corvette goes on a diet as well, I think they are getting up to around 3400lbs now compared to the 3200lbs when the C6 launched.

Your on the wrong site.



Anyway here is my take on this (as if anyone cares) this is the 2012 zl1 vs 2013 gt500 thats a year difference things could change between that time also gm could pull a little trick like maybe there horsepower rating is to the wheels? Just maybe. I'm really glad ford has stepped up from being beat on for YEARS why not let them have one? I don't know just throwing out wild ideas here as far as the bailout shit that has nothing to do with any of this shit
I still don't see the big deal about it so what if they took some money they paid it back can't tell me none of y'all have never took out a loan



All I can say is this...I can't wait to absolutely DESTROY one of these ZL1s in a plain ole 5.0 GT at a stoplight....

Afterwards whats the guy gonna say....yeah you beat me by 10 cars but this thing ran better around the "ring" than the 13 GT500... LOLOLOLOL

The bailout has everything to do with it....GM wouldn't be here otherwise.

I thought Camaro guys had a set of nuts, not after reading this garbage. The dork challenged Ford to some dumbass 13 mile track 1000s of miles away, claiming their 4000# pile is a few seconds quicker than a way cooler/faster GT500




Real men settle it in 1320 foot, and most purist Camaro fans think the new Camaro sucks..

ZL1s shouldn't have an issue with either type of racing.

It's precursor is the Cadillac CTS-V running a generation older magnetic ride, skinnier tires and the same powertrain with "only" 550hp and more weight. This is how it stacked up against the GT500.


That's the biggest problem with the GT500 that I hope Ford has fixed on this new one. 3 tenths slower yet it was trapping a little over 2mph faster. 285 tires (I think anyway? Not sure if they have said anything about the 2013 tire size) on a car with 550hp and all that torque has always killed it in straight line tests. I think they need to widen the rear fenders and put 325-335 tires on it in order to put all 650 horses to the ground.

That's the biggest problem with the GT500 that I hope Ford has fixed on this new one. 3 tenths slower yet it was trapping a little over 2mph faster. 285 tires (I think anyway? Not sure if they have said anything about the 2013 tire size) on a car with 550hp and all that torque has always killed it in straight line tests. I think they need to widen the rear fenders and put 325-335 tires on it in order to put all 650 horses to the ground.

Is that seriously the only arguement you guys can come up with? The lack of traction...???

Um.... a set of control arms and DRs cured every bit of my traction issues on a 5 year old 600 rwhp GT500.

Like this 4000# Camaro is gonna straight cut 1.4 60fts all day :jest::jest:

All I can say is this...I can't wait to absolutely DESTROY one of these ZL1s in a plain ole 5.0 GT at a stoplight....Afterwards whats the guy gonna say....yeah you beat me by 10 cars but this thing ran better around the "ring" than the 13 GT500... LOLOLOLOL

A plain ole 5.0 GT can hardly get out of its own way. You'd have a hard time destroying a S2000 Honda with a plain ol 5.slow. lol


The bailout has everything to do with it....GM wouldn't be here otherwise.


Since the new Camaro has outsold the Mustang, I can see why you are butthurt.


I thought Camaro guys had a set of nuts, not after reading this garbage. The dork challenged Ford to some dumbass 13 mile track 1000s of miles away, claiming their 4000# pile is a few seconds quicker than a way cooler/faster GT500

Dumbass track? Nurburgring is probably one of the most revered courses in the world.


Real men settle it in 1320 foot

You're right...the CTS just embarassed the overpriced GT500 pig.


and most purist Camaro fans think the new Camaro sucks..

Yeah, they really think it sucks. Can't figure out why all those people who bought the new Camaro feel they suck. In fact they suck so bad they've outsold the Mustang.

^^You're going to neuter GM if you keep swinging off it's nuts so hard.

Is that seriously the only arguement you guys can come up with? The lack of traction...???

Um.... a set of control arms and DRs cured every bit of my traction issues on a 5 year old 600 rwhp GT500.

Like this 4000# Camaro is gonna straight cut 1.4 60fts all day :jest::jest:

Have you not read any of my other posts saying nothing but positive things? I know all it needs is tires, but Ford should figure that out and put them on from the start. No way 120mph traps should be running high 12 ETs, and yes I know they've damn near hit 10s stock with just DRs, but DRs don't come stock like everyone buys them.

All I can say is this...I can't wait to absolutely DESTROY one of these ZL1s in a plain ole 5.0 GT at a stoplight....

Afterwards whats the guy gonna say....yeah you beat me by 10 cars but this thing ran better around the "ring" than the 13 GT500... LOLOLOLOL

The bailout has everything to do with it....GM wouldn't be here otherwise.

I thought Camaro guys had a set of nuts, not after reading this garbage. The dork challenged Ford to some dumbass 13 mile track 1000s of miles away, claiming their 4000# pile is a few seconds quicker than a way cooler/faster GT500




Real men settle it in 1320 foot, and most purist Camaro fans think the new Camaro sucks..

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/186750-1/wtf_Im_out.gif?

All I can say is this...I can't wait to absolutely DESTROY one of these ZL1s in a plain ole 5.0 GT at a stoplight....The Mustang GT is an impressively fast car but the only way that ^ is going to happen is if it beats the driver...with equal drivers on equal surfaces a stock Mustang GT 5.0 will never beat a (new generation) stock Camaro ZL1, forget about destroying it.
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LoL, you've got to be kidding me...

Ford's need a blower to make power (ZR1-ZL1 now).

Sales numbers don't mean shit (now it's the only thing that matters).


Crazy how the tables have turned and so has the :swing: point of views.

Is that seriously the only arguement you guys can come up with? The lack of traction...???

Um.... a set of control arms and DRs cured every bit of my traction issues on a 5 year old 600 rwhp GT500.

Like this 4000# Camaro is gonna straight cut 1.4 60fts all day :jest::jest:

I guess in your little fantasy world of internet magazine racing, modfied GT500s with control arms and DRs only race bone stock ZL1s on stock tires.

Maybe you should stick to the Ford sites instead of trolling GM sites with your garbage. Takes a special kind of idiot to spend his time typing out long-winded nonsensical trash on the wrong website all because he likes one brand over another.

lots of horseshit posts on both sides.

LoL, you've got to be kidding me...

Ford's need a blower to make power (ZR1-ZL1 now).

Sales numbers don't mean shit (now it's the only thing that matters).


Crazy how the tables have turned and so has the :swing: point of views.

Yea, I've been having the same thoughts for a while now. The Mustang and Camaro have completely switched roles in the pony car market from the last generation. It's been fun these last couple of years seeing the fanboys readily adopting the arguments they used to rail against 10 years ago.

As for this GM rep's comments: nothing but bad PR in the making. Let your product do the talking. Hardly anything good ever comes from talking shit without knowing what hand the competition is about to play. If the '13 GT500 does go out to the 'Ring and flat out embarrasses the ZL-1, what's going to be their damage control then? If it really is all about building a car that people will want to buy and enjoy for what it is and how it makes them feel, then what does it matter what it will run vs another car on a track a whole ocean away? Just shut up and let the cars do the talking GM.

All in all, I think it's in poor taste...and a bit arrogant...to put out lines like "you can thank us at GM, Mustang fans". Near as I can tell, Mustang fans owe no more to the Camaro than Camaro fans owe to the Mustang. I seem to recall that it was the Mustang that was born first, and that it was the success of the 05+ Mustangs that spurred GM into doing everything in its power to bring the Camaro back...retro themes and all. So let's call that one a draw, and stop using it as poorly conceived propaganda for a car that isn't even available yet.

ZL1s shouldn't have an issue with either type of racing.

It's precursor is the Cadillac CTS-V running a generation older magnetic ride, skinnier tires and the same powertrain with "only" 550hp and more weight. This is how it stacked up against the GT500.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW-qF_Xzjl4



...yah...an auto vs some guy that couldn't shift for crap...

...and the GT500 still posted a faster trap speed.

Now, I wonder how much faster it will be with an extra 100hp and launch control....

I think the response was warranted, but pathetic at the same time. Every trip level of the Camaro gets out performed by the corresponding trim level in the mustang. I also find it ironic how they brag that all of the track ready stuff is standard. I am sure there are plenty of people that wish they were all optional, and the car came in under 50k.

I'm curious what kind of r-compound tires the PP and Track Pack will have.

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/2013/

The Mustang GT is an impressively fast car but the only way that's going to happen is if it beats the driver...with equal drivers on equal surfaces a stock Mustang GT 5.0 will never beat a (new generation) stock Camaro ZL1, forget about destroying it.
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Jesus, I never once said I was stock, I'll absolutely murder the first one I see...the almighty LSX+a blower should be the end all be all....come on with it.

If anyone magazine races it's the new Camaro fans, I DD my 5.0 and have had no fewer than 7 "transformers" cower once they see the stupid 5.0 badge

Unbelievable...Camaro guys boasting about some track times you need a Ship and 3 weeks to get to....Obama needs to bailout some brains.... balls too.

Jesus, I never once said I was stock, I'll absolutely murder the first one I see...the almighty LSX+a blower should be the end all be all....come on with it.

If anyone magazine races it's the new Camaro fans, I DD my 5.0 and have had no fewer than 7 "transformers" cower once they see the stupid 5.0 badge

Unbelievable...Camaro guys boasting about some track times you need a Ship and 3 weeks to get to....Obama needs to bailout some brains.... balls too.

Why the fuck are you on this site? It's stupid as fuck get off your shit man godamn I don't give a fuck about your modded car which your mom probably paid for. There's no reason for your stupid shit just quit being a bitch if you wanna race modded cars there's plenty of cars that are 10+ years older ther will make you run home hide in the corner sucking on your thump until you shit your pants and fall asleep. So fuck off good thing they make me take meds or Id make a personal trip to come educate people like you. Go eat a dick

Wow. It suddenly feels like the comment section of a Youtube video in here. The maturity meter is peggin' out...

Looks like immaturity breeds more immaturity.

I don't see why everyone is getting their feathers ruffled. The ZL1 is going to be a great car for a lot of people, if someone desires a better performer they can buy a Corvette.

Are you guys forgetting that GM has this thing called.... the Corvette, that is their king of sports car, they CAN make a faster and faster camaro like tuning companies like Hennessey and SLP, just add a bigger boost blower and get 700hp from it but GM can't and wont do it because then it'll become as fast as the Corvette then that would make buying a corvette useless, heck it's bad right now, so yea.... Just be happy you've gotta 580hp Camaro, which is 55k, you wanna step it up? Go buy a Z06 I know I'll still take a 06 Z06 any day over a 2012 ZL1 any day!

Jesus, I never once said I was stock, I'll absolutely murder the first one I see...Wait, you're the one bragging/boasting about what your aftermarket/modified/tuned car might (or might not) do to a factory bone stock one and yet you're giving other people grief on here?:huh: :lol: :jest:
Brilliant.

My 11 year old Z28 (also not stock, just like your car) will wipe the street with a bone stock Mustang GT 5.0...and that too is of course about as moot and irrelevant of a point as one can possibly try to make.

the 2011 zl1s i have seen for sale in limited edition (69 made) are pushing 750 hp.. but the only one ive found is in fl for a buck forty... no thanks but i would take it for a test drive tho :)

Tranny and diff cooler from factory. Very nice.

Doesn't anyone else think that this comparison is kinda like apples to oranges? One car with IRS, the other with a solid axle. About a 500 lb difference in weight. One is DOHC and the other is a pushrod motor, each has very different power bands. If these cars were any more different people probably wouldn't even be cross shopping between the two. As different as they are I'm surprised people even care that much to argue which is better overall (if that can even be determined).

Jesus, I never once said I was stock, I'll absolutely murder the first one I see...the almighty LSX+a blower should be the end all be all....come on with it.

If anyone magazine races it's the new Camaro fans, I DD my 5.0 and have had no fewer than 7 "transformers" cower once they see the stupid 5.0 badge

Unbelievable...Camaro guys boasting about some track times you need a Ship and 3 weeks to get to....Obama needs to bailout some brains.... balls too.

Yeah I'm sure the Camaro drivers really "cowered" in fear of your 5.0. Actually it's more likely that they were laughing at you because you were driving like an idiot trying to street race.

Just stop feeding the troll. Don't respond to him.

Just stop feeding the troll. Don't respond to him.

This.

I agree with the guy who said it's like fucking youtube in here. Grow the fuck up people.

I had a 2010 SS and a 2012 gt now. I'm pretty sure the GT is faster, but I haven't had enough track time in it. It has better gears (3.73s), and I have a suspicion that it makes more to the wheels. Or are we comparing the GT500? I get confused because the term 5.0 is getting thrown around and the gt500 was a 5.4 right?

That said I wouldn't think I would have a chance against a blown 5th gen, let alone the zl1. No point in comparing the two really. As a matter of fact a one-owner ZL1 is on my short list for next car.

Tranny and diff cooler from factory. Very nice.

Doesn't anyone else think that this comparison is kinda like apples to oranges? One car with IRS, the other with a solid axle. About a 500 lb difference in weight. One is DOHC and the other is a pushrod motor, each has very different power bands. If these cars were any more different people probably wouldn't even be cross shopping between the two. As different as they are I'm surprised people even care that much to argue which is better overall (if that can even be determined).

The media has been comparing the GT500 to the Z06 for years, and they are completely different. Since these cars will be direct competitors, they will obviously be compared. The fact that the designs are different doesn't really mean much.
Of course they will be cross shopped. While some people will be brand loyal, there are plenty of people that just want the better car from a performance standpoint, as long as pricing is similar. Some people just want the baddest pony car out there, regardless of who makes it.

I also doubt the powerbands will be much different. Both motors are large displacemnt v8s with posative displacement blowers.

I had a 2010 SS and a 2012 gt now. I'm pretty sure the GT is faster, but I haven't had enough track time in it. It has better gears (3.73s), and I have a suspicion that it makes more to the wheels. Or are we comparing the GT500? I get confused because the term 5.0 is getting thrown around and the gt500 was a 5.4 right?

That said I wouldn't think I would have a chance against a blown 5th gen, let alone the zl1. No point in comparing the two really. As a matter of fact a one-owner ZL1 is on my short list for next car.

This whole thread is comparing the ZL1 to the 2013 GT500 that was just announced. There are a bunch of threads about it on here, engine is now a 5.8 rated at 650 HP.

A lot of predetermined predictions and estimations about cars that haven't even hit the showroom floors yet. I love both cars and can't wait to see what they're made of, that doesn't mean you have to be a little school yard boy and bash on anything that can possibly be bashed on because of your brand-loyal shades that are blinders to anything else on the market that might match it's value. The engineer was just saying "Your welcome" to everyone, I mean, we have a camaro and mustang with around 600hp, and both hold their own on a twisty! Why all the complaining here now? I thought this was a decent forum where knowledgeable gearheads shared information...

I also doubt the powerbands will be much different. Both motors are large displacemnt v8s with posative displacement blowers.

I disagree. Ask anyone who has driven a car with a modular motor, you have to rev them fairly high to make the same torque an lsx motor makes at lower rpms.

I disagree. Ask anyone who has driven a car with a modular motor, you have to rev them fairly high to make the same torque an lsx motor makes at lower rpms.

Post your dyno slip.

http://www.evoperform.com/GT500/gt500-dyno1.jpg

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/this-thread-sucks/11/Thread-Gay-1950s.jpg

Somebody shit on the coats

Doesn't anyone else think that this comparison is kinda like apples to oranges? One car with IRS, the other with a solid axle. About a 500 lb difference in weight. One is DOHC and the other is a pushrod motor, each has very different power bands. If these cars were any more different people probably wouldn't even be cross shopping between the two. As different as they are I'm surprised people even care that much to argue which is better overall (if that can even be determined).

? It's a Mustang and a Camaro, the only way you can have a more apple to apple comparison is if you were comparing a Camaro to a Firebird. Both priced the same, supercharged V8s, RWD, 2-door muscle cars...you can't call a comparison apples to oranges just because they used different methods to arrive at the same place.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fc3MQ-NoGw4/TQBtoREAYFI/AAAAAAAAGVE/oSMTjqwSRLA/s320/please1.jpg

My god I need to buy a ZL1 asap!!! Who wants to buy some camaros and a truck? lol

I disagree. Ask anyone who has driven a car with a modular motor, you have to rev them fairly high to make the same torque an lsx motor makes at lower rpms.

Except this is the largest dohc modular motor and is topped with a 2.3 l.blower. Torque has a direct relationship with psi and the 2013 gt500 runs 15psi off the showrrom floor. If you ever drove one you would never say it was a motor that needs to rev. They make huge torque right off idle.

Pathetic response. They are basically accepting that Mustang is WINNING performance wise. Defending themselves with the current sales record look really weak in the eyes of true enthusiasts.

Exactly, if reverse applied through the latter LT-1 and LS-1 years, his logic would come back to bite him in the backside. Ford just owned you GM, now own up to it and bite back. I expected more from them than this.

I'm really beginning to think that GM didn't believe Ford would leap frog the GT500 by such a large margin going from the '12 to the '13 model. I think this statement by the chief engineer was a knee-jerk defensive reaction, rather than something that was well thought-out beforehand.

Everyone knew the TVS and 5.8 were coming. Most expected 600-620 hp. I don't think people saw the rest of the changes coming, especially with a complete redesign looming.

I think most of us are in a holding pattern to see what the cost is going to be.

I'm really beginning to think that GM didn't believe Ford would leap frog the GT500 by such a large margin going from the '12 to the '13 model. I think this statement by the chief engineer was a knee-jerk defensive reaction, rather than something that was well thought-out beforehand.

Yup, the last jump in power was 540 to 550, and the one before that was 500 to 540, so bumping it up another 100, and having a 45mph higher top speed, not to mention all the other changes, and the fact that the next gen Mustang is coming in a coupe-few years...I don't think anyone saw it coming.


I think most of us are in a holding pattern to see what the cost is going to be.

Base price has only gone up ~$7k since the 2007 GT500 came out, I doubt it's going to be much more than the 2012s are.

Except this is the largest dohc modular motor



I believe the 6.2 is the largest mod motor; unless the 6.2 isn't a mod motor.

Yup, the last jump in power was 540 to 550, and the one before that was 500 to 540, so bumping it up another 100, and having a 45mph higher top speed, not to mention all the other changes, and the fact that the next gen Mustang is coming in a coupe-few years...I don't think anyone saw it coming.



Base price has only gone up ~$7k since the 2007 GT500 came out, I doubt it's going to be much more than the 2012s are.

im thinking with these recent upgrades pricing will be considerably higher.

im thinking with these recent upgrades pricing will be considerably higher.

i agree. i think it will be noticeably higher than the ZL1 IMO.

ZL1 580hp 2012 what 55k?

It sounds realistic for the 2013 650hp cobra to be 63ish with all the options close to 70k

I believe the 6.2 is the largest mod motor; unless the 6.2 isn't a mod motor.Yes the 6.2L is in the mod motor family but I believe it is still SOHC (he said "largest DOHC mod motor"). :nod:

im thinking with these recent upgrades pricing will be considerably higher.

Look at the changes from 2007 to 2011 for a $7k increase in price, not to mention the fact that its 4 years since then. Way more than the new 2013 from the old 2012. You guys are just looking for something to make the ZL1 sound better haha.

I believe the 6.2 is the largest mod motor; unless the 6.2 isn't a mod motor.

It is but it is sohc only.

Look at the changes from 2007 to 2011 for a $7k increase in price, not to mention the fact that its 4 years since then. Way more than the new 2013 from the old 2012. You guys are just looking for something to make the ZL1 sound better haha.

so i guess you think a bigger motor, blower, revised drivetrain and a ton of other stuff doesnt mean a considerable increase in price?


perhaps youre :sack: just a little haha.

A plain ole 5.0 GT can hardly get out of its own way. You'd have a hard time destroying a S2000 Honda with a plain ol 5.slow. lol

Are you basing that off of anything, or are you just pulling it out of your ass?
The 5.0 was 7 seconds quicker than the S2000 type S around VIR.
Even the 2010 3v was 2 seconds quicker.:lol:

Next...

so i guess you think a bigger motor, blower, revised drivetrain and a ton of other stuff doesnt mean a considerable increase in price?


perhaps youre :sack: just a little haha.

Those are not reasons that the car would go up in price considerably. It's just a bigger version of the motor that has been in the car for the past six years. And a different blower doesn't necessarily mean more expensive. The '11 GT wasn't considerably more than the '10, and it received an ENTIRELY new engine and transmission.

Those are not reasons that the car would go up in price considerably. It's just a bigger version of the motor that has been in the car for the past six years. And a different blower doesn't necessarily mean more expensive. The '11 GT wasn't considerably more than the '10, and it received an ENTIRELY new engine and transmission.

were talking about a 650 hp car and whats needed to support that kind of power.

you can reasonably expect this car to base over 50k.

It's not like they are adding very many parts, just improving or upgrading. I can see $50k, sure...but $60k? That's wishful thinking for people that are trying to find reasons not to like it.

It's not like they are adding very many parts, just improving or upgrading. I can see $50k, sure...but $60k? That's wishful thinking for people that are trying to find reasons not to like it.

From the LA Auto show ZL1 hardtop = $54k ZL1 Convert about $3k more + what ever the dealer adds $60k is the low price partner. :D

327344

From the LA Auto show ZL1 hardtop = $54k ZL1 Convert about $3k more + what ever the dealer adds $60k is the low price partner. :D

327344

Welcome to the discussion, we were talking about the GT500. Partner.

It's not like they are adding very many parts, just improving or upgrading. I can see $50k, sure...but $60k? That's wishful thinking for people that are trying to find reasons not to like it.

im thinking a 3-5k increase not 10-12.

Not just the amount of parts they're having to add, but the amount of research to go into parts to hold the extra power.. Not to mention all the extra warranty claim's I'm sure they will see with this added power.. I'd say at least a 8-10k increase on price.. That being said, both these cars are making ridiculous power off the showroom.. It's getting hard for me to compete anymore with my 98 model camaro. lol

Dude, do you have any idea the amount of power that the stock engine/drivetrain has been able to handle since the GT500 was released? This isn't an F-body (no offense intended).

were talking about a 650 hp car and whats needed to support that kind of power.

you can reasonably expect this car to base over 50k.

Considerign the 2012 bases around 49k, I wouldn't say that is a huge stretch.
Obviousl;y it will be priced on par with the ZL1. I would think the base to be slightly under the ZL1s price, but the Performance pack and track pack prices to make it climb closer to 60k.

http://www.svtperformance.com/articles/2011/LA%20Autoshow/Day%201/2011%20LA%20%20Autoshow%20-%20Day%201%20-%20036.jpg

That's awesome

I don't think I'm supposed to link them but SVTP's homepage has videos at the auto show w/ an engineer talking about whats new w/ the 5.8, other differences on the GT500, and a specific video on why they chose to stick w/ the same tire size.

The increase in displacement is all bore and came from the use of their new spray cylinder lining. Seems like a pretty awesome cost efficient way to increase displacement; same block and such just their new spray on lining as opposed to sleeves. Compression is also up IIRC.

I'm still not a fan of the tire size, but their reasoning was to preserve handling/driver feel. They found/thought that increasing the tire sizes induced understeer. The goal was a more "balanced" approach that would have wider appeal.

That's smart...preserve the balance/handling. People who drag race are going to put different tires on it anyway.

I'm still not a fan of the tire size, but their reasoning was to preserve handling/driver feel. They found/thought that increasing the tire sizes induced understeer. The goal was a more "balanced" approach that would have wider appeal.
Sounds like a lame excuse, the car is running 255/285 f/r tires, thats narrow as hell for a heavy performance car (and im not just talking about the rear). They should increase both front and rear to keep the balance, something like 285 front, 315 rear ,that's not unreasonable at all. Check out what its competition is running...

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/186750-1/wtf_Im_out.gif?

haha :D

Considerign the 2012 bases around 49k, I wouldn't say that is a huge stretch.
Obviousl;y it will be priced on par with the ZL1. I would think the base to be slightly under the ZL1s price, but the Performance pack and track pack prices to make it climb closer to 60k.


i agree.


now its time for some head to head testing. :engarde:

I believe the 6.2 is the largest mod motor; unless the 6.2 isn't a mod motor.

Kind of yes and no. The block design is very similar to a Mod Motor, but the bore spacing has opened up by half an inch. Probably more new parts than the same parts. i would say a new design using lessons learned from the Mod Motor.

Ford 6.2 = 4.015 bore x 3.74 stroke
Ford 5.4 = 3.552 bore x 4.165 stroke
Ford 5.8 = 3.68 bore x 4.165 stroke, if I had to guess (rough estimate).

Nice looking car for sure...finally. The 5th gens look like dog shit to me, but this is a huge step up.

Nothing can save that interior though. WTF were they thinking, it is garbage!!! Some Alcantera and stitching isn't even to improve the terrible design.

SVT chief: The Boss 302 was the motivation for the 2013 Shelby GT500, not the Camaro ZL1

http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/jamal-hameedi-svt-585x388.jpg

The announcement of the 2013 Shelby GT500 at the L.A. Auto Show caused various reactions throughout the automotive community. Mustang fans, of course, were ecstatic to see a production Mustang with 650 horsepower capable of 200 mph. Others, like Al Oppenheiser, the chief engineer of the Chevrolet Camaro ZL1, had a different perspective. After the Shelby’s debut, Oppenheiser wrote a letter to the Camaro Nation claiming that the “2013 GT500 will still not match the technology and sophistication of the 2012 Camaro ZL1.” He took it another step further, saying “for Mustang fans, you’re welcome. Clearly the Camaro has encouraged Ford to throw everything they can at us.”

That’s not the case, according to Jamal Hameedi, the SVT chief nameplate engineer. At the L.A. Auto Show Hameedi informed us that the increased performance of the 2013 GT500 was not inspired by the Camaro ZL1 but rather to stay a step ahead of the Mustang Boss 302. When we asked whether the Camaro ZL1 influenced the development of the 2013 GT500, he quickly responded by saying “surprisingly not because when we launched this program it was in the darkest days of the automotive industry. Everyone had said the ZL1 program was canceled. So actually when we kicked this program off the ZL1 was canceled at the time.” Rather, Hameedi informed us that SVT realized that additional performance was required of the GT500 during Ford’s development and testing of the Boss 302. “We wanted to make a big step in performance,” he told us. “We didn’t just want to just make a marginal step.”

This isn’t too surprising, considering the Boss 302′s straight line performance is fairly close to that of the 2012 Shelby GT500. Motor Trend achieved a 0-60 mph time of 4.0 seconds flat in a Boss 302, a nearly identical time to what a GT500 is capable of producing, and a stock Boss 302 has produced 1/4 mile times well into the 11s with just a set of drag radials.

http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/2011/12/05/svt-boss-the-boss-302-was-the-motivation-for-the-2013-shelby-gt500-not-the-camaro-zl1/

I thought it was funny when the hp ratings came out for the GT500 all the Ford fan boys came out of nowhere. ZL1 what?? etc.... Yea well it hasn't even hit the strip yet or the ring so? But its true since the 5th gen Camaro came out Ford has been making dramatic changes to the Mustang. What does that say..... Just like back in 1998. What happen to the 1999 Mustang? Didn't Ford make some huge changes? Along with the 1994 Mustang? What caused that? The 1993 LT1 Camaro... Ford fan boys been saying GM is catching up with Ford when actually its the other way around! Can't deny true facts. Until the GT500 gets a better time then the ZL1 in the ring you can't say anything negative about its performance!

IMO ZL1 > GT500

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=287607&d=1316125696
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=287599&d=1316125696
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=287600&d=1316125696

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eeplOPqdyA

Oh god I finally thought those Hitler Spoofs had finally disappeared.:(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eeplOPqdyA

Fucking priceless...was literally laughing out loud by myself in the college computer lab...

"Maybe we should have just tried a performance version of the Volt...It's not like that thing is starting on fire or anything, right?"

I thought it was funny when the hp ratings came out for the GT500 all the Ford fan boys came out of nowhere. ZL1 what?? etc.... Yea well it hasn't even hit the strip yet or the ring so? But its true since the 5th gen Camaro came out Ford has been making dramatic changes to the Mustang. What does that say..... Just like back in 1998. What happen to the 1999 Mustang? Didn't Ford make some huge changes? Along with the 1994 Mustang? What caused that? The 1993 LT1 Camaro... Ford fan boys been saying GM is catching up with Ford when actually its the other way around! Can't deny true facts. Until the GT500 gets a better time then the ZL1 in the ring you can't say anything negative about its performance!

IMO ZL1 > GT500

LoL, fan boy?






http://oi42.tinypic.com/55klua.jpg

The car was built for the track and every car will come track ready. Yeah, nice. Ready for the wrong track! I don't know of a single road course in this part of the county but we have 3 drag strips about an hour drive apart. Plenty of long strait roads to mess around on if you want to have some fun on the street. I'm guilty of making some high speed runs on the street but not in traffic or around curves. All the standard track equipment the car comes with is useless for what I would buy it for. Every car guy I'm friends with agree on this. If anything at least offer it without all the roadrace junk as its just adding to the cost and probably weight. The Corvette is supposed to be the roadrace car.

Yeah, the new Camaro is doing fine in sales. Mostly middle aged women and teen girls own the ones around here. People seem to buy them for the look. I sure as hell didn't buy a 4th gen for the looks. It was about performance for the money. Sorry, I do consider myself a die hard GM fan but I hate the direction they went with the new Camaro. So does every other person I know that is actually interested in performance over looks. Hell one of them is about to buy a new Mustang. He can't decide if he wants to get a 5.0 and mod it or get a GT500. He is a former 4th gen z28 owner. The new Camaro just doesn't appeal to my kind of crowd...the kind that drives on the street with drag radials in the back and skinnies up front.

Yeah, the new Camaro is doing fine in sales. Mostly middle aged women and teen girls own the ones around here. People seem to buy them for the look.

The Mustang has been selling on looks since the retro design bowed in 2005. Now it doesn't have that anymore thanks to the Challenger and Camaro. The Camaro is hardly a slow, underperforming car. The Mustang is getting trounced so bad in the marketplace that they did even more tweaks for 2013 to limp it along to the upcoming redesign - which will make it more like the current Camaro with IRS.

And it is rumored to be lighter than the current car.

The car was built for the track and every car will come track ready. Yeah, nice. Ready for the wrong track! I don't know of a single road course in this part of the county but we have 3 drag strips about an hour drive apart.

Um really?
In your state:
http://www.circuitgrandbayou.com/Home_Page.html
http://www.nolamotor.com/index/
You can also browse http://www.delta-scca.org/wordpress/ for your local auto-x meets and events to race at.
And Texas right next to you currently has 16 open road courses.
The ZL1 was built for real racing, not some one trick pony strait line BS, this isn't the 60s anymore...


Plenty of long strait roads to mess around on if you want to have some fun on the street. I'm guilty of making some high speed runs on the street but not in traffic or around curves. All the standard track equipment the car comes with is useless for what I would buy it for. Every car guy I'm friends with agree on this. If anything at least offer it without all the roadrace junk as its just adding to the cost and probably weight. The Corvette is supposed to be the roadrace car.

Obviously this car is not for you, but if all you care about is going strait why would you spend the money on a new higher end Camaro when you could just buy a cheap fox body with an LS1 swap or a 4th gen Fbody and spend less but still get good results?

The new Camaro just doesn't appeal to my kind of crowd...the kind that drives on the street with drag radials in the back and skinnies up front.
It wasn't supposed to appeal to just "that type" of person, its supposed to be a world class (sold everywhere), all around performance car. Thats part of the reason you are seeing these good sales numbers.

The Mustang is getting trounced so bad in the marketplace that they did even more tweaks for 2013 to limp it along to the upcoming redesign - which will make it more like the current Camaro with IRS.

What?? The Mustang is right behind the Camaro in sales; the Challenger is the one that is getting trounced.

In all honesty, I've really stopped caring about the GT500 and the ZL-1 since the arrival of the Boss 302. I guess I've grown numb to all the HP insanity going on in the sportscar segment these last few years. I like the track-centric focus of the Boss...and the fact that it doesn't have a PD blower adding to its forward weight bias. Great balance > ridiculous power...all day IMO.

In all honesty, I've really stopped caring about the GT500 and the ZL-1 since the arrival of the Boss 302. I guess I've grown numb to all the HP insanity going on in the sportscar segment these last few years. I like the track-centric focus of the Boss...and the fact that it doesn't have a PD blower adding to its forward weight bias. Great balance > ridiculous power...all day IMO.:nod: I really like the Boss 302 (new and old) as well. :cool:

Yes, yes, yes, let the troll-accusations begin!! ;)

Not here to Troll necessarily (although people tend to translate things with bias), but I own a couple Camaros, alot of Chevs in-general, and also Mustangs. My daily driver is a stripe-delete 2011 GT500 with the SVT Performance Package. I've got about $800 total in mods (pulley, tune, filter), and chassis-dyno'd at 540 rwhp. I can honestly say that I'm an American car lover, not a single-brand blind-follower. That said....

* Overall, a decent discussion, kudos...

* A bit of pure nonsense here and there, and I'll apologize for the occassional goofy-Mustang-troll posts seemingly intended to stir shit, and not much else.

* Never seen so many images of testicals on a car forum before... Hint-hint, it doesn't help your image much, makes you look as though you really ENJOY looking at jiggling testes... Hmmmmm.... Not that there's anything wrong with that.. :D

* Please be honest to yourself when pondering sales stats, and realize that it really doesn't pertain to the discussion of Shelby vs. ZL1. Prior to 2010, there hadn't been a Camaro available on the market for EIGHT YEARS. That created a strong pent-up demand, which the Camaro has benefitted handsomely from 2010-present. Just imagine if Ford turned-off the spigot on the Mustang for 8 years, and what would happen when it re-appeared in fresh-new duds... Therefore, comparing sales as if it's some valid-measure is apples/oranges, and rather pathetic considering the V6 cars drive the lion's share of the numbers. Both Camaro AND Mustang sales are driven more by style than substance, yet this is mostly a substance debate. So quit embarrassing yourself with the "we win in sales" argument. You'd be destroyed in high school debate club. Locally, I'm dismayed by how many 6-banger Camaros I see, I can't seem to find an SS out on the road to save my life.

* YES, GT500's equipped with the SVTPP have traction issues, big-time... It's the road-course-spec Goodyears that are the culprits... Not so much the size, they just don't grip fershit unless they're really hot. Great tire on a road-course once you've got them hot, and that's what SVT was going for. But not a drag tire. So it didn't surprise me to see the CTS-V jump the Shelby from the dig... But OBVIOUSLY, that bone-stock Shelby was reeling-in the Caddy at the end. Just a switch to Nitto's or Conti's really evens the field, and that's what I'll be doing once I rag-out my stock Goodyears. I'm too cheap to swap tires until they're ready to go. ;)

* So yes, from a dig the Camaro will be a tough race for the 2013 GT500. Not from a roll, there's simply too much disparity in weight/hp ratio. The trap-speed on the '13 is likely going to be SICK, and I've always been a trap-speed kinda guy, dating back from my heavier drag racing days when cocky rich kids in GMC Syclones would kill me off the line at the drag-strip, and then I'd come by them on the tall end like Lion running down a water buffalo, laughing hysterically.

* It will be very interesting if one of the mags plops both these cars onto a good/big road-course, with a good driver piloting each car, and run the numbers. But.... How about waiting for that, instead of making goofy predictions, neither side knows.. And when did Chevy fans start getting so obsessed with a track in Germany anyhow??

Any-hoo, those are just my takes on your thread, sorry for charging in and acting like I own the place. Styling-wise, I'd be more interested in the ZL-1 if it didn't have the goofy ground-effects (1985 was a long time ago..) and over-done styling. I'd love one in regular SS-RS clothes, with all the mechanicals/chassis. The SS is the looker in my book, WITHOUT the body kit. Somebody earlier said that the ZL-1 was better looking than the standard Camaro, and the GT was better looking than the Shelby, and methinks he needs to set down the crack-pipe, but whada-I-know...

Oh, last point... 2012, 2013, hell call them 1492 models, it's just a NUMBER. Both cars are hitting showrooms close to the same time. They are most definitely comparable. And also know that 75% of the earlier-model GT500's out there are modded-up well beyond 600hp. I'm there just with $800 bucks spent, and next Tuesday, I go in for my new TVS blower, which will push me to 640rwhp, well over 700hp at the crank, at 3,870 lbs on the scale, stock-exhaust... And yes, spinning like a 1-legged-dog on re-caps!! ;)

Good post, and truth on all accounts. ^^^

What?? The Mustang is right behind the Camaro in sales; the Challenger is the one that is getting trounced.

The Mustang is getting trounced, it was the defacto king of the hill and that changed when the new Camaro bowed. The Camaro combines performance with concept car looks in a real production package that turns heads. The Mustang has been a bit stale and a bit behind ever since. Styling tweaks and new powertrains haven't reversed it's sales slide, which is a bit behind the Camaro overall year to year. That's why Ford has been going so hard with the update for 2010, 2011 and now 2013 before this generation is finally put to pasture.

The Challenger was not concieved to go head to head with the Mustang in sales. It gave Mopar nuts and fans of classic cars a thoroughly modern neo-classic to own and to love as well as a second (and now primary) halo car for Dodge. That said, only it's American rivals outsell it. The Challenger handily outsells every other coupe on the market.

The Mustang is getting trounced, it was the defacto king of the hill and that changed when the new Camaro bowed. The Camaro combines performance with concept car looks in a real production package that turns heads. The Mustang has been a bit stale and a bit behind ever since. Styling tweaks and new powertrains haven't reversed it's sales slide, which is a bit behind the Camaro overall year to year. That's why Ford has been going so hard with the update for 2010, 2011 and now 2013 before this generation is finally put to pasture.


The Camaro has sold a little over 12% more since the April 2009. Trounced is hardly the word for it. I could care less about sales but your choice of words is quite off.

As far as sales go, "trounced" is the entire 4th generation for Fbodies.

The Mustang is getting trounced

Really? Haven't sales been tracking within 7-10% of each other? Hardly a trouncing, and lest we not forget that Camaro sales are over 3,000,000 behind Mustang et al... "Trounced", that's like saying a basketball team "trounced" another team when they won 72-66.

The Camaro combines performance with concept car looks in a real production package that turns heads. The Mustang has been a bit stale and a bit behind ever since.

Nice opinion... I also tend to avoid bragging that I "turn heads", because bloody multi-car pileups and funny-looking hair-do's also turn heads.

Styling tweaks and new powertrains haven't reversed it's sales slide

2009 - 66,623 2010 - 73,716 2011 - 68,650... Watch-out, it's a huge snowball rolling down a mountain!! That was sarcasm... Any-hoo, looks fairly stable to me, and pretty much right-on par with the Camaro's sales-graph...

which is a bit behind the Camaro overall year to year.

Finally, a statement based in truth.

That's why Ford has been going so hard with the update for 2010, 2011 and now 2013 before this generation is finally put to pasture.

Your point?? Not to mention that "this generation" (as if it's some staggering drunk mule) has won its share head-to-head tests, and landed itself as one of the "10-Best-Cars" for 2012 in Car & Driver. Jeez, Ford needs to just shoot it to put it out of its misery, with that 10-best thing and all... (more sarcasm).

The Challenger was not concieved to go head to head with the Mustang in sales.

Says who? You? Odd that the Brand Manager for Dodge is moderating a Chevy forum (I'm full of the ol' sarcasm today! :) )

... only it's American rivals outsell it. The Challenger handily outsells every other coupe on the market.

You just made that assumption up. 'Cause it's not true.

Here I just thought I had made a strong case as to why using the sales-figure-argument in this debate was silly and misleading and ridiculous, and the Moderator comes and doubles-down on it. I didn't see THAT coming...

The most depressing thing is, that our cars suck worse than Chevy Impalas, because more of those are sold... ;)

The Camaro has sold a little over 12% more since the April 2009. Trounced is hardly the word for it. I could care less about sales but your choice of words is quite off.

As far as sales go, "trounced" is the entire 4th generation for Fbodies.

It's getting "trounced" because HE likes the Camaro and the Challenger a whole lot more than the Mustang. :eyes: He also always brings up how Dodge didn't make the Challenger to go head to head with the Camaro and the Mustang, simply because it gets beat everywhere by those two. :eek2:

Have they released the MSRP for the 2013 GT500 yet?

* YES, GT500's equipped with the SVTPP have traction issues, big-time... It's the road-course-spec Goodyears that are the culprits... Not so much the size, they just don't grip fershit unless they're really hot. Great tire on a road-course once you've got them hot, and that's what SVT was going for. But not a drag tire. So it didn't surprise me to see the CTS-V jump the Shelby from the dig... But OBVIOUSLY, that bone-stock Shelby was reeling-in the Caddy at the end. Just a switch to Nitto's or Conti's really evens the field, and that's what I'll be doing once I rag-out my stock Goodyears. I'm too cheap to swap tires until they're ready to go. ;)

Honestly, if picking between a track car, the ZL1 does have a lot more "road race equipment" than the GT500...I think the numbers will be a lot closer than people are thinking between the two...

Really? Haven't sales been tracking within 7-10% of each other? Hardly a trouncing, and lest we not forget that Camaro sales are over 3,000,000 behind Mustang et al... "Trounced", that's like saying a basketball team "trounced" another team when they won 72-66.


A 10% difference in sales in a month's time is a HUGE difference lmao....we're not talking about a double digit basketball game..first quarter of 2011, Camaro sold nearly 2,000 cars, while Mustang was at 15,400 and change...nearly a 25% difference over 3 months, and IIRC, that wasn't even the biggest gap between the 2...

That'd be like a basketball game of 2,000 to 1,500 (500 points more, that's trouncing! :lol:), or 200 to 150, or 20 to 15, or 2 to 1.5......however you'd like to simplify it ;)


That being said, I really dont care about sales at all, I just thought that analogy was really bad...

Have they released the MSRP for the 2013 GT500 yet?
No, I'd like to think it will be more than the ZL1, but it probably wont be...

Looking at the graph, you're cherry-picking specific/opportunistic windows in time to create your better-than-reality-average numbers. I could play the same game, intentionally misleading, by stating the fact that more Mustangs were delivered in June 2011 than Camaros. Honest math is honest math, and you sir must be a politician. And again, why does this sales-volume junk persist? It's all due to pent-up demand, period...

Google-up what Mustang sales were in 2005-2006 when Ford finally got their act together and released a Mustang that actually LOOKED like a Mustang. Even with no Shelby and low horsepower the sales during those years make the 2010 Camaro release look like a non-event. What fueled it? Pent-up-demand for the styling/history/legacy of the 60's models.

Your sales are fueled by pent-up demand for a good looking retro Camaro... Ford blew it's wad earlier, and cashed-in its 60's-success-equity in 2005 with its good looking retro Mustang. The Mustang sales today have NOTHING to do with, and NOTHING in common, with Camaro. It's too friggin ships passing in the night, and it will continue to ebb and flow back and forth, mostly dictated by V6-powered secretary cars.

And if you really insist on beating this lame numbers thing to death, why not find out how much of the Camaro production and sell-thru is SS (V8) sales?? Ford breaks their production out by model, but I can't seem to find it for GM. Probably, because the dirty little secret that their success is dominated by 6-cylinder buyers looking to pose on the cheap (you can hardly tell a V6 from an SS beyond the air-scoop) doesn't please the marketing folks too much.

For the 2011 model-year, Mustang total production was 68,650. Of that, 31,448 were V8-powered versions, 26,422 GT's, and 5,026 Shelbys. That's 45%, a pretty strong showing for the performance versions, and 2012 will likely be even stronger with the addition of the Boss 302.

How do Camaro SS sales compare to Mustang GT/Shelby/Boss sales? How many "performance-minded" Americans are choosing SS's compared to V8-powered Mustangs?

Dig it up, and THEN maybe we've got something to talk about that's valid regarding the sales-war between Ford and Chevy. Currently, as I've said from the beginning, it's a pathetic, weak and floppy limb on your debate tree.

I thought it was funny when the hp ratings came out for the GT500 all the Ford fan boys came out of nowhere. ZL1 what?? etc.... Yea well it hasn't even hit the strip yet or the ring so? But its true since the 5th gen Camaro came out Ford has been making dramatic changes to the Mustang. What does that say..... Just like back in 1998. What happen to the 1999 Mustang? Didn't Ford make some huge changes? Along with the 1994 Mustang? What caused that? The 1993 LT1 Camaro... Ford fan boys been saying GM is catching up with Ford when actually its the other way around!

Just playing devil's advocate here...perhaps you should do a little research and find out why the Camaro exists.

Just playing devil's advocate here...perhaps you should do a little research and find out why the Camaro exists.

Not to mention why it was brought back from the grave with retro inspired looks.

The best part fo the arguement to me is the irony behind the sales figures. Sales figures didn't mean much the F-body fans when the mustangs were kicking their butts in the sales department becuase the Camaro performed better. Now the mustang performs better but doesn't sell as well, the sales figures point to the better car.

Honestly, sales figures don't mean anything to "us" provided they are high enough to continue on with the model. What we should care about is the better performing car. The LS powered cars were a shit ton better than the early mod stangs, and the new stangs are better than the new Camaro.

Not to mention why it was brought back from the grave with retro inspired looks.

The best part fo the arguement to me is the irony behind the sales figures. Sales figures didn't mean much the F-body fans when the mustangs were kicking their butts in the sales department becuase the Camaro performed better. Now the mustang performs better but doesn't sell as well, the sales figures point to the better car.

Honestly, sales figures don't mean anything to "us" provided they are high enough to continue on with the model. What we should care about is the better performing car. The LS powered cars were a shit ton better than the early mod stangs, and the new stangs are better than the new Camaro.

Exactly. What's really weak is the fact that the Camaro was outsold like four to one with the 4th gen, and didn't sell at all from 2003-2009(there was like what, right around a million Mustangs sold during those years?), but now is somehow the better car because it's outselling a car by 5-10% that's only been mildly updated since 2005 :eyes:

Just playing devil's advocate here...perhaps you should do a little research and find out why the Camaro exists.

X2, and how much catching up was the Mustang doing from 2003-2009? Oh wait...At least it only takes Ford a year at most to beat the Camaro, compared to the better part of a decade for the Camaro :D (and no, I'm not a Mustang fanboy, just showing that using that argument to say your car is better is lame).

Looking at the graph, you're cherry-picking specific/opportunistic windows in time to create your better-than-reality-average numbers. I could play the same game, intentionally misleading, by stating the fact that more Mustangs were delivered in June 2011 than Camaros. Honest math is honest math, and you sir must be a politician. And again, why does this sales-volume junk persist? It's all due to pent-up demand, period...

Google-up what Mustang sales were in 2005-2006 when Ford finally got their act together and released a Mustang that actually LOOKED like a Mustang. Even with no Shelby and low horsepower the sales during those years make the 2010 Camaro release look like a non-event. What fueled it? Pent-up-demand for the styling/history/legacy of the 60's models.

Your sales are fueled by pent-up demand for a good looking retro Camaro... Ford blew it's wad earlier, and cashed-in its 60's-success-equity in 2005 with its good looking retro Mustang. The Mustang sales today have NOTHING to do with, and NOTHING in common, with Camaro. It's too friggin ships passing in the night, and it will continue to ebb and flow back and forth, mostly dictated by V6-powered secretary cars.

And if you really insist on beating this lame numbers thing to death, why not find out how much of the Camaro production and sell-thru is SS (V8) sales?? Ford breaks their production out by model, but I can't seem to find it for GM. Probably, because the dirty little secret that their success is dominated by 6-cylinder buyers looking to pose on the cheap (you can hardly tell a V6 from an SS beyond the air-scoop) doesn't please the marketing folks too much.

For the 2011 model-year, Mustang total production was 68,650. Of that, 31,448 were V8-powered versions, 26,422 GT's, and 5,026 Shelbys. That's 45%, a pretty strong showing for the performance versions, and 2012 will likely be even stronger with the addition of the Boss 302.

How do Camaro SS sales compare to Mustang GT/Shelby/Boss sales? How many "performance-minded" Americans are choosing SS's compared to V8-powered Mustangs?

Dig it up, and THEN maybe we've got something to talk about that's valid regarding the sales-war between Ford and Chevy. Currently, as I've said from the beginning, it's a pathetic, weak and floppy limb on your debate tree.

Not sure if you caught this in my previous post or not...but read this again...

That being said, I really dont care about sales at all, I just thought that analogy was really bad...


BUT, since you're so interested in the debate...I'll throw some "honest math" your way...:D

FACT: Deliveries since April 2009/Camaro: 224,262
FACT: Deliveries since April 2009/Mustang: 195, 875

FACT: Camaro is outselling mustang since April 2009 12.7%
(Anyone who knows anything about business should know that's a huge difference.)

FACT: In the last 30 months, there has been only 6 months where Mustang has outsold the Camaro...

http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab300/Mastertomos/sales.png

Gm hasn't release a model breakdown that I've seen, so assuming any facts about it is just speculation and can't be backed by any real numbers.

And the whole "pent up demand" thing? Honestly, who's picking apart sales more here? GM and Ford aren't releasing statements on why people bought their cars, that's pure speculation, and an argument/debate that can't be won because there is no "fact" or numbers...just opinions.

I'm throwing out real numbers here, you've got diarrhea at the mouth of opinions on stuff that can't be proven or dis-proven really...and my "debate tree" has floppy limbs? If we after clever metaphors here, I wouldn't hand a tire swing from your debate tree ;)

FACT: There are many cars that outsell both that I would NEVER own, so why does it matter which sells better?

FACT: Arguing which car sells better is worse than arguing whose car is faster; at least then the debate is about how a car actually performs.

Sales are one thing but I would bet Ford is profitting more per Mustang sold as the basic design dates back to the 2005 model year. With the Camaro, even with it having more sales, I would think GM is still trying to make back its development costs to this point, unless they somehow dumped most of those costs in with the Old GM and not the New GM. Honestly, the ZL1 improvements helps me like the 5gen somewhat but the GT500 does more for me. Still like the SRT8 Challengers looks more then either the Stang or Camaro but they are underpowered and overpriced. The GM engineer should be thanking Ford as they stood up and said the Gov should bail them out as it would hurt the US auto industry as a whole. Eitherway, I like the fact the Stang is made here in the US unlike the Camaro and Challenger made in Canada.

Thanks gokartone, for injecting some logic and reason back into this thread. And nanokpsi also scores strongly on my "objective-thought-o-meter"

Looks like no one can find statistics for the actual Camaro PERFORMANCE models. If there's any point to bickering over sales (and there's not), it's in comparing the V8 models, not pointing at a slightly-better sales advantage fueled by bottom-rung 6-bangers and deluding yourself that it's some sort of "victory".

It's every bit as pointless as Dodge Omni GLHS owners claiming "best car" bragging-rights because the Omni outsold Camaro and Mustang combined in 1986. Grandmothers and penny-pinchers must've been proud that year! :rolleyes: Do you get it now?

I also read a (unsubstantiated but worth looking into) post on another forum today stating that GM had 100-days worth of un-sold Camaro inventory sitting on dealer lots.

Bottom-line, you wanna compare GT500 to ZL1?? Stick to the cars, don't let your little sister (who owns the V6 Camaro) do your fighting for you... It's not a flattering exercise.

Sales are one thing but I would bet Ford is profitting more per Mustang sold as the basic design dates back to the 2005 model year. With the Camaro, even with it having more sales, I would think GM is still trying to make back its development costs to this point, unless they somehow dumped most of those costs in with the Old GM and not the New GM. Honestly, the ZL1 improvements helps me like the 5gen somewhat but the GT500 does more for me. Still like the SRT8 Challengers looks more then either the Stang or Camaro but they are underpowered and overpriced. The GM engineer should be thanking Ford as they stood up and said the Gov should bail them out as it would hurt the US auto industry as a whole. Eitherway, I like the fact the Stang is made here in the US unlike the Camaro and Challenger made in Canada.



Too much logic :D

Eitherway, I like the fact the Stang is made here in the US unlike the Camaro and Challenger made in Canada.

When you stuff in junk parts from China I start to lose interest either way.

When you stuff in junk parts from China I start to lose interest either way.

You're referring to the Chinese-built Ford/Getrag MT82 6-speed Transmission I suppose... That's not the transmission used in the GT500.

Yes, it's been a problem that Ford's been slowly fixing, but it's a bit stereotypical to assume that everything is "junk" out of China. I've got a Chinese-assembled Getrag 6-speed in my Carrera S and it's been an absolute gem, best gearbox in any car I've ever owned.

What, do you think all of the components in our cars that are made in Mexico are all that much better?

Not to mention that EVERY aspect of both Ford and GM vehicles, as it applies to quality, is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the under-engineered donkey turds they were churning-out in the early-80's. I find it hard to complain much about quality these days, cars are generally built so well, regardless of what sign is on top of the poll by the road.

FACT: There are many cars that outsell both that I would NEVER own, so why does it matter which sells better?

FACT: Arguing which car sells better is worse than arguing whose car is faster; at least then the debate is about how a car actually performs.

I didn't want to get into this debate but when others started making bogus claims and remarks I tried to set the record straight on the subject with some real world numbers.

I don't think the sales numbers are indicators of which car performs better whatsoever. I do, however, find market numbers interesting and if someone wants talk about it, I can make conversation (based on facts) because I check out the sales numbers sometimes out of personal curiosity.

Sorry for "starting" this debate, let's get back to comparing 2 cars that don't exist yet...:D

You're referring to the Chinese-built Ford/Getrag MT82 6-speed Transmission I suppose... That's not the transmission used in the GT500.

Yes, it's been a problem that Ford's been slowly fixing, but it's a bit stereotypical to assume that everything is "junk" out of China.

I never said everything was junk, but from personal experience the above mentioned unit is junk and I would never even think twice about being associated with another one. While it's not the unit used in the GT500 it is a unit used in the Mustangs, which I thought was relevent in the discussion of where the big 3 pony cars are made.

I have nothing against the GT500, I would love one. I would prefer it over the ZL1 on looks alone. Point was just it doesn't matter where something is made when it's assembled there from junk parts, be it Ford/Chevy/Dodge or Gibson (Epiphone)/Fender/Ibanez...junk is junk.


But to answer your other question based on my personal experiences, yes I would take a Hecho en Mexico part over a Made in China part (by a small margin, but a margin none the less).

I never said everything was junk, but from personal experience the above mentioned unit is junk and I would never even think twice about being associated with another one. While it's not the unit used in the GT500 it is a unit used in the Mustangs, which I thought was relevent in the discussion of where the big 3 pony cars are made.

I have nothing against the GT500, I would love one. I would prefer it over the ZL1 on looks alone. Point was just it doesn't matter where something is made when it's assembled there from junk parts, be it Ford/Chevy/Dodge or Gibson (Epiphone)/Fender/Ibanez...junk is junk.


But to answer your other question based on my personal experiences, yes I would take a Hecho en Mexico part over a Made in China part (by a small margin, but a margin none the less).

Gotcha, valid reply, I just get a bit defensive when blanket stereotypes start getting tossed-around.

I'm also not a fan of the overkill ZL1 styling, just as I wouldn't go out on the town wearing a batman costume.

Has it really been determined yet whether the MT82 issues are a design/engineering-flaw, or a materials/quality flaw? I don't pretend to know, but I've yet to read anything definitive... If it's the former rather than the latter, then it's some engineers at Getrag that are to blame, not the assembly-folks in China.

Any-hoo, onward and upward... :hijack:

Gotcha, valid reply, I just get a bit defensive when blanket stereotypes start getting tossed-around.


Has it really been determined yet whether the MT82 issues are a design/engineering-flaw, or a materials/quality flaw? I don't pretend to know, but I've yet to read anything definitive... If it's the former rather than the latter, then it's some engineers at Getrag that are to blame, not the assembly-folks in China.


According to Jalopnik as of this morning, Ford still just blames owners.

On the particular unit that was in my brother's car, the new owner he traded it to went on to tear it down and had a connection at Ford to even get it warrantied and the cause determined to be a faulty 2nd gear and synchro which according to them was caused by improper hardening of the gears. There was likely a run of gears that slipped through QC.

Metallurgy, you've got the hardening, and/or it could be Hydrogen embrittlement. Wonder if the parts are made in China, or just assembled. Oh well, sh** happens with every manufacturer, sad to hear that Ford isn't properly jumping on this one.

On another note, Justin Starkey of VMP has been running high-9's with his wife's stock-block 5.0 Automatic... So maybe the slushbox is the durable way to go! :) He's yanked the motor though, and building it to ensure he doesn't visit a catastrophic failure.. ;) Still, damn impressive out of 5.0L with a big blower and exhaust.

My complaint is even less the junk part and more the way they dismissed the claim as abuse right off the bat and wanted to just sweep it under the rug without even looking at it. Again I know this is not a brand specific occurrence but it is no less infuriating.


The new owner of that car is now running mid 11s with no changes other than the trans rebuild and some slicks. Other guys are running 10s on them...

And sometimes the way a warranty claim is handled differs from sales-district to sales-district, with different district managers in charge... I can understand his frustration..

"For Mustang fans, you're welcome. Clearly the Camaro has encouraged Ford to throw everything they can at us."

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/11/al-oppenehieser-camaro-zl1-.jpg

Camaro Nation:

As you know, the blogs lit up with the announcement of the new 650-horsepower Mustang GT500, and I wanted to give you my perspective on the latest challenge from Dearborn.

The Mustang has been playing catch up since the moment the fifth-gen Camaro arrived in 2009. Since then, Camaro has been the best-selling sports car in America, indicating that consumers know which car offers the best performance, style and safety.

It is no coincidence that Mustang has introduced three 100-horsepower increases to keep pace with Camaro: First their V-6 was bumped to 305; then their V-8 went to 412, and now the GT500.

Even with the 100-hp increase, the 2013 GT500 will still not match the technology and sophistication of the 2012 Camaro ZL1.

The days of "no replacement for displacement," are over, and it's not enough to be fast in a straight line. With the Camaro ZL1, we set out to deliver integrated performance, and be equally good at acceleration, braking, grip, and turning. As you will soon see, that's why the Camaro ZL1 will set the performance benchmark for the segment.

Our approach was to make every Camaro ZL1 fully track-capable, from the factory. As we announced today, the ZL1 Coupe will start at $54,995 with standard Magnetic Ride Control, standard Performance Traction Management, and standard track-capable equipment such as a rear-differential cooler, brake cooling ducts, and an engine and transmission cooler.

None of our customers will have to buy extra options – or modify their ZL1 – for track-day usage. That is not the case for the current GT500, or their new car.

For Mustang fans, you're welcome. Clearly the Camaro has encouraged Ford to throw everything they can at us.

For Camaro fans, trust me, we are always listening to your feedback, and working hard to keep the Camaro in the lead.

Al O.

CAMARO ENGINEER'S: 3 words for you:

SOLID REAR AXLE!

CAMARO ENGINEER'S: 3 words for you:

SOLID REAR AXLE!

Camaro Engineers Response : 1 word .... C.O.P.O. :secret2:

That's fine whatever it takes. Just needs to be available out of the dealership that way.

And with a good rear end housing, at least the 14 bolt out of the SS trailblazer.. something that can be beefed up and take the abuse, (don't stick a junk 10 bolt in it please!)

That's fine whatever it takes. Just needs to be available out of the dealership that way.

And with a good rear end housing, at least the 14 bolt out of the SS trailblazer.. something that can be beefed up and take the abuse, (don't stick a junk 10 bolt in it please!)

COPO is going to be right around $100k (I think?), and not streetable, so no luck on that haha.

Dude, COPO's are street-UNlegal drag cars, can't be registered for the street, and will cost a small FORTUNE (will make a ZL1 look cheap)... Alot of good that does for the average Joe who wants to build a street/strip terror. It's just a competitor to the Cobra Jet Mustang drag car, and the Drag Pak Challenger.

If that were to be the "Engineer's response", what a lame-o response it would be.

Dude, COPO's are street-UNlegal drag cars, can't be registered for the street, and will cost a small FORTUNE (will make a ZL1 look cheap)... Alot of good that does for the average Joe who wants to build a street/strip terror. It's just a competitor to the Cobra Jet Mustang drag car, and the Drag Pak Challenger.

If that were to be the "Engineer's response", what a lame-o response it would be.

Im pretty sure I know what the COPO is . Way to take it out of context :rolleyes:

The solid axle needs to be available in a streetable version not just a copo factory race car like the drag pack challenger's and cobra jet cars.

Have it at least be a box that you can check off on the ZL1 car, or if they make the Z28 car that would be fine to put it in that.

Just something, other then the independant mess... sure the ride is nice and all but the car enthusiast want's a chassis that's set up so it can be beefed up and hammered on at the strip, on the street, etc. Irs does not fit that bill... there's a reason that the mustang's did away with it after the 03/04 cobra.

Dude, COPO's are street-UNlegal drag cars, can't be registered for the street, and will cost a small FORTUNE (will make a ZL1 look cheap)... Alot of good that does for the average Joe who wants to build a street/strip terror. It's just a competitor to the Cobra Jet Mustang drag car, and the Drag Pak Challenger.

If that were to be the "Engineer's response", what a lame-o response it would be.

Technically C.O.P.O's back in the day were absolutely street legal

Im pretty sure I know what the COPO is . Way to take it out of context :rolleyes:

I was addressing JL ws-6, not you. He seemed to be under the impression that you'd be able to get a straight-axle in a new Camaro simply by running an order through the central office.

And then I poked a bit of fun at your post ("If that were to be the "Engineer's response", what a lame-o response it would be") because I felt your insinuated notion of the COPO being some sort of "answer" to the cry for straight-axle Camaros was pie-in-the-sky. If your COPO reference was purely tongue-in-cheek, then I missed the sarcasm, and I apologize.

But I did not suggest that YOU didn't know what the COPO is, so I didn't miss that context whatsoever.

I mean look at it from where I sat, somebody says "I wish I could get my Camaro with a solid axle", and the answer is COPO? "Oh, sweet! Let me go home and start rolling up the change on top of my dresser.. Oops... Wait a minute, I'm going to need a truck and trailer to tow the thing, so I might have to raid the kids' piggy banks too... "

The point of my post was to both inform JL ws-6 that his savior was not the COPO, and poke a bit of fun at the notion that somehow the COPO was an answer to anything outside of well-heeled drag racing circles.

No offense intended..

Technically C.O.P.O's back in the day were absolutely street legal

Certainly... And that was then... What does it have to do with this discussion?

And you did notice I dame back and said it needs to be available in one that you can drive away right?

Yes, that's been my point, that the COPO is not a solution to what you're looking for, at any price.. Currently and into the short-term future, you can no more get a straight-axle street Camaro from the factory than a Ford fan can get an IRS-equipped Mustang.

Not a good thing IMO.

Yes, that's been my point, that the COPO is not a solution to what you're looking for, at any price.. Currently and into the short-term future, you can no more get a straight-axle street Camaro from the factory than a Ford fan can get an IRS-equipped Mustang.

Next gen Mustang is coming with IRS. IDK what the big deal is with IRS, if they can cut the weight down and build them as strong as the solid axle cars there isn't anything wrong with them.

I don't have a problem with IRS whatsoever, my drag racing days are behind me, but I understand why some folks dislike it and would prefer the old-school axle.

IRS, for exactly the reason that you just stated (drag racing) will never work as well as a solid axle, there are too many weak points in it, and no matter what you do the tires camber at some point of the suspension movement and that disturbs the tires from planting correctly. And, all of the IRS systems are next to impossible to get a 15 inch rim on without changing out 1/2 the parts (big cost just for rim fitment).

I'm sure someone will come in here and start listing off all the 1.2x 60 foots that have been done with IRS but don't waste your time, you throw enough money at anything and it can go fast, but from a budget and pratical standpoint trying to make IRS a viable or better option is a a huge money pit.

All true, but the Mustang is the "last man standing" with a factory solid axle on the mass-production models. And once they cross-over in 2015, that's likely that, and most of the drag racers will just build-up older stuff, which is what most of 'em have been doing all along anyhow.

Getting back to the original intent of the post, the Camaro engineer pontificating that Ford has pulled out all its stops, I dunno about that....

I just had a 2.3 TVS blower installed on my 2011 Tuesday, along with a higher-flow elbow, Ford Racing dual 65mm CJ Throttle body, and an appropriate dyno-tune to accommodate. Given that it's my daily driver, we tuned it safely, no stupid timing or too-lean a/f ratios. Just a nice safe street tune that'll last me down the road.

660 rwhp and 641 lb/ft. That's out of my 5.4, and that equates to WELL beyond 700hp at the crank.

Yes, I'm not an idiot, and I realize that from the factory both the ZL1 and the GT500 have to pass arduous durability tests, are held to extremely safe-end parameters, and the biggest problem with high-boost is high-heat... I probably couldn't go road-racing (reliably) with my 2.5" pulley.

But even still, with yet-better cooling of the supercharger and some higher-quality plumbing on the intake and exhaust sides, I'd be shocked if Ford couldn't put down 700hp sae out of that 5.8.

I don't buy the notion that "Ford's played all its cards". I would fear that if Chevy DID counter the 2013 GT500 with a stouter ZL1, that Ford likely has another few bullets in their gun that would create this same current fiasco all over again.

Blame the Corvette, Chevy had to retain their architecture in order to retain the compact low-profile package that can fit under that sports-car's hood without using goofy hood scoops.

Blame the Corvette, Chevy had to retain their architecture in order to retain the compact low-profile package that can fit under that sports-car's hood without using goofy hood scoops.

I prefer that architecture for the same reasons. I love how much room is left in the engine bay to work.

I could not stand to hot rod a mod motor for this exact reason. Just looking under the hood makes me want to blow my brains out.

Also my biggest complaint about the 4th gens having their shit halfway under the damn windshield.

Hmm, at the end of the day, drag racing isn't thd reason I personally buy my cars. I like them to be fast but theres always someone faster. I would choose a road racing setup with lots of power over a car that did wheelies and was impractical for daily driving as most drag cars are.

That being said I really like the styling of the Stangs and Camaros especially the ZL-1!! But not enough to convince me to buy eaither over a base c6 with magnetic ride.

Hp isn't everything, at the end of the day its still a camaro or still a mustang znd most people could care less if ylu have the v6 or the 1000 hp version.

For me, I'd go zl1/mustang because I actually like tbe looks better, but I'm getting a c6 "maybe z" for my next car...

Sorry for typos c6> zl1>gt 500

I don't know about your "most people could care less" comment regarding the pony cars.... I've NEVER gotten as much attention and interest as I've gotten in my GT500, hands-down. I have a feeling that the ZL1 will gain alot of questions and comments at gas stations and stoplights as well..

I've had a Corvette before as a daily driver, and that wasn't a car that got me much attention whatsoever (which I don't complain about, I don't really enjoy "attention", which is why my Shelby is stripe-less). I get more "nice car" comments by a 10-1 ratio with the GT500, from a broad demographic.

Unfortunately, Corvettes carry a stigma that people automatically apply to the driver (the satin jacket singles-bar thing), even if you're a true gearhead and not a poser. And that's really unfortunate, because they're such great cars. But if you want NEGATIVE attention (especially from the ladies) drive a 'Vette... I don't see owning another one, unless Chevy totally does a 180-degree change in direction with the styling.

Haha, blame all the 50+ guys driving them with their Corvette jackets and I'm better than you attitudes for the negative attention they get. Speaking of which, you would be shocked at how many (almost every Corvette I meet on the road) give me the wave or flash their lights thinking I'm driving one haha.

Anyways, it's hard to argue that a solid axle would be a better in cars like these where 99% of the owners are never going to put drag radials on and head off to the track. To make it an option is just too damn expensive too considering the whole rear of the car would have to be changes from one to the other. I would rather have IRS in a car over a solid axle with all things being equal (breaking point/weight), the minor advantage at the drag strip just isn't worth it.

Good thing im married and negative attention from girls is good!! Lol. Me wanting a vette has everything to do with driving the pony cars all my adult life then driving a vette. The vette is just me. I fell in love with the c6 "not so much the c5". So for me its all about preference.

And im only 27 not 50 lol fwiw.

I bought a new 1993 C4 6-speed when I was 26. Didn't think I could afford it, but Chevy had big-$$ cash-back incentives, so I stupidly dove-in anyhow, and somehow I chewed through the payment book.

My car was a factory-freak, ran 13.41 @ 107.2 paper-filter-bone-stock the first night out at the track, with only 1,700 miles and the factory oil still in the crank-case.

I loved the car, but all it took was one Corvette show to teach me that I was "not one of them". And old female acquaintances, including my wife, still rib me about having driven a Corvette and being one of "those guys".

I wound up selling it when I ordered a '97 S351 supercharged Saleen. Thought I was going to be king dingaling forever with that car (506 hp sae, epa-certified)... Had no idea that the horsepower wars would continue marching forward.

My mom had a 6-speed C5. I really didn't care for that car, steering was slow and numb, and the LS1 lacked torque. It was no faster than my oddly-quick LT1 '93. One of my employees has a 6-speed C6, and BOY did they fix the shortcomings of the C5. Much better/faster car.

I loved the car, but all it took was one Corvette show to teach me that I was "not one of them". And old female acquaintances, including my wife, still rib me about having driven a Corvette and being one of "those guys".


Meh, the rich asshole stereotype is MUCH better than the head-banging, trailer park living, mullet rocking stereotype that is the Camaro and Mustang.

Meh, the rich asshole stereotype is MUCH better than the head-banging, trailer park living, mullet rocking stereotype that is the Camaro and Mustang.

I've never seen Mustang tossed into the Camaro stereoptype before... ;)

And the Corvette stereotype isn't rich asshole, that's the Porsche stereotype...

The Corvette stereotype is a mish-mash of tack-on-accessory-loving-elvis-listening-automatic-tranny-buying-poke-around-town-old-guy... :)

Meh, I've always seen the Corvette guy as the cheaper American stereotype of the Ferrari guy, with that "I'm better than you" attitude and Corvette/Ferrari jacket on all the time haha.

Damn, I'm currently on my 2nd Camaro and my 2nd Corvette at the same time (and owned 4 different Mustang V8s over the years as well), :eek: I wonder which of the stereotypes I fall under LOL. :lol:

I agree with some of them but I don't know about all of those labels/stereotypes as I've seen all sorts of people driving all sort of cars over the years but for me, well, I just enjoy drag racing/setting some goofy internet records in my C6. :nod:
And I don't even own a 'Corvette' jacket LOL. :lol: ;)

I just hope gmpp decides to sell the sc kit eventually, like they sell the ecotec sc.
At a price that will rival a typical h/c/i install. Still need headers with either route,so thats a wash.:judge:

I like this 5th Gen :thumb:

i like it as well, but if it came down to it i think i would pick the gt500, honest they just look better to me, i hope this camaro is all its made out to be,

I'd rather have the GT500.

I'm really liking it, even though it still looks like they've cut off Wall-e's head & stuck it to the dash.

LM AO and we shall call her EVVVA

you know whats really funny... how people use the word arsenal or bag of tricks for a car manufacturer to make more power. are you serious? like they have some secret ways of making more power that one company doesnt know about? lol...

lol... in this day in age if you think chevy couldnt release a 800 horsepower monster ls9 tomorrow your numb. same goes for ford. i think you guys forget about the entire business picture. for fucks sake we have 4 cylinder hyundais approaching 300 horsepower. its really not that hard when you have millions of dollars for r&d. Everyone forgets the bean counters (yea.. ten bolt) at car manufacturers and what they will allow. Hey go figure not everyone in the higher ups at car companies are car guys. what a mind blowing thought.

Arguing about which car is faster from the factory is gay if you're a gear head. arguing sales numbers to make a car look superior is fucking stupid.. same goes with the relentless bailout bullshit.. just makes you look like a fucking artard. everyone knows ford took money as well been proven many times. who gives a shit as long as they're both making cool shit and motors we can modify to make 4 times they came with from the factory.

you know whats really funny... how people use the word arsenal or bag of tricks for a car manufacturer to make more power. are you serious? like they have some secret ways of making more power that one company doesnt know about? lol...

lol... in this day in age if you think chevy couldnt release a 800 horsepower monster ls9 tomorrow your numb. same goes for ford. i think you guys forget about the entire business picture. for fucks sake we have 4 cylinder hyundais approaching 300 horsepower. its really not that hard when you have millions of dollars for r&d. Everyone forgets the bean counters (yea.. ten bolt) at car manufacturers and what they will allow. Hey go figure not everyone in the higher ups at car companies are car guys. what a mind blowing thought.

Arguing about which car is faster from the factory is gay if you're a gear head. arguing sales numbers to make a car look superior is fucking stupid.. same goes with the relentless bailout bullshit.. just makes you look like a fucking artard. everyone knows ford took money as well been proven many times. who gives a shit as long as they're both making cool shit and motors we can modify to make 4 times they came with from the factory.Good points.