Automotive News, Media & Press - Revealed - Toyota FT-86 (Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ in the US) RWD sports car

MORE PASSION, MORE FUN: TOYOTA RECAPTURES THE JOY OF DRIVING

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/11/toyotagt86hero.jpg

World debut for Toyota GT 86 sports car at the Tokyo motor show

KEY POINTS

Entirely driver-focused sports car, designed to recapture the fundamental joys of motoring
World's most compact four-seater sports car, delivering very low centre of gravity and excellent power-to-weight ratio
A return to Toyota's sporting roots, with a front-mounted engine and rear-wheel drive package
Powertrain combines 197bhp 2.0-litre flat-four boxer engine with torque-enhancing D-4S injection technology
Design achieves outstanding aerodynamics while recalling Toyota's sports car heritage
New car to be called the GT 86 in Europe, in tribute to Toyota's GT car heritage
On sale in the UK in June 2012

The anticipation is over: Toyota's new GT 86 sports car makes its world debut at the Tokyo motor show on November 30. The compact 2+2 model, one of the most keenly awaited new cars of the coming year, will go on sale in the UK in June 2012.

The GT 86 has been conceived as an entirely driver-focused machine, designed to deliver the core qualities of the classic sports car experience. That means precise, instant response to the smallest throttle and steering inputs and the kind of performance that appeals to those for whom driving is a passion, not a necessity.

The GT 86 is built on a new platform, with a highly aerodynamic bodyshell stretched tight over the car's mechanical elements. Rather than fitting a heavy, large capacity powertrain, Toyota has opted instead to go back to its sporting roots, installing a compact, front-mounted, free-revving petrol engine that drives the rear wheels.

This four-cylinder "boxer" unit generates 197bhp at 7,000rpm and maximum torque of 205Nm at 6,600rpm, giving the GT 86 brisk, engaging performance.

The powertrain is matched to the world's most compact four-seat design to create a car that benefits from light weight, low inertia and a low centre of gravity to achieve the best possible power-to-weight ratio. For the driver that means lively, accessible performance and dynamic character with minimal intrusion from electronic systems.

Packaging

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2011/11/xlarge_1767266f658a44ecef0a0d0c1d39d106.jpg

The GT 86 measures 4,240mm long, 1,285mm high and 2,570mm wide, dimensions which make it the most compact four-seater sports car available today.

Both the powertrain and the driving position have been set as low and as far back as possible to achieve the best balance: the car has a near-perfect 53:47 front-to-rear weight distribution. The flat-four engine format and the driver's hip point – the lowest of any current Toyota production model – together give the GT 86 an ultra-low centre of gravity, at just 475mm.

The GT 86 makes the most of a light kerb weight, making it easy for drivers to exploit its nimble handling and cornering poise. The suspension features MacPherson struts at the front and double wishbones at the rear. The car rides on 17-inch wheels and is fitted with ventilated disc brakes fore and aft.

World's first horizontally opposed engine with D-4S

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2011/11/xlarge_c657b0e2aa51ac300c87e14340485b7d.jpg

The GT 86's engine is the result of a joint Toyota and Subaru development programme that brings together their technical know-how and mutual passion for sports cars.

Toyota has added its D-4S injection technology to Subaru's new, horizontally opposed, naturally aspirated 1,998cc four-cylinder boxer engine. This system features separate twin injectors for both direct and port injection, and a high 12.5:1 compression ratio, increasing power and torque across a wide range of engine speeds without sacrificing fuel efficiency and environmental performance.

The flat-four engine has equal bore and stroke of 86.0mm and drives through either a six-speed manual or six-speed automatic transmission. The manual offers quick, precise shifts using a tactile, short-throw lever; the automatic transmission can be controlled using paddle shifts mounted on the steering wheel.

Power is distributed to the rear wheels via a limited slip differential to give the best possible grip in all driving conditions. The ABS and switchable vehicle stability control systems have been tuned specifically to deliver dynamic stability at the limit of the car's performance envelope with minimal electronic intervention to help preserve the purity of the driving experience.

Design

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2011/11/xlarge_c3298a2c7c7d6091c4b5b46cf25336a1.jpg

The design of the GT 86 successfully works within the technical constraints of achieving the most compact dimensions possible, a low centre of gravity and aerodynamic performance inspired by motorsport technology, while also displaying evocative, sweeping styling that recalls Toyota's sports car heritage.

Toyota's new design language informs the styling, as in the way attention is focused on the lower part of the car with the large lower grille. Elsewhere the "keen" approach can be witnessed in the clear, expressive lines.

The lower grille's "scorpion" look gives the GT 86 a more powerful appearance, with further sporting details including the model-specific 17-inch alloy wheels, rear spoiler, twin exhausts and the "86" piston logo that denotes the car's special powertrain configuration.

On board, the ergonomics and function of every element the driver interacts with have been scrutinised to make driving the car as natural, instinctive and rewarding as possible. For example, the steering wheel has a 365mm diameter, making it the smallest ever fitted to a Toyota, and it is trimmed in buckskin, developed from exhaustive feedback from test drivers on how to achieve the best steering performance and grip.

The three-meter instrument cluster is arranged around a large tachometer, its design benefiting from close attention to the positioning of the displays, markings and typeface. The result is the best possible visibility and readability. The driver-focus of the cockpit is further reinforced by the carbon-effect trim, all-black roof lining, red stitching on the upholstery, aviation-style rocker switches and lightweight, aluminium pedals.

Toyota's 50-year sports car heritage

http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2011/11/xlarge_2d6492ab14c1060a96482bdbe1de765d.jpg

The GT 86 may be launched as the world's only current sports car to feature a front-mounted, horizontally opposed engine and rear-wheel drive, but it cannot claim to be the first. That honour is held by Toyota's two-cylinder boxer-engined Sports 800, which the company began developing in 1962. Since then, Toyota has established a long history of producing exciting, driver-focused sports cars with a front-engine, rear-wheel drive format that have proved as popular with the public as they have been successful in competition.

The beautiful 2000 GT, a coupe powered by a 2.0-litre straight-six engine, was first displayed at the 1965 Tokyo motor show and helped establish Toyota's global reputation as a sports car manufacturer.

Launched in 1971, the first Celica models featured rear-wheel drive powertrains and were praised by enthusiasts for their agility. All four Supra generations came with straight-six engines and rear-wheel drive, while from 1984 the MR2 won recognition as one of the best handling sports cars in motoring history.

The inspiration for the GT 86, however, is the Corolla GT (or Levin) AE86, a car with an enduring reputation for delivering sheer excitement and capturing the fundamental joy of driving. Its front-engine, rear-wheel drive package, compact dimensions, light weight, impeccable balance and superior power-to-weight ratio made it a must-have choice for rallying and circuit driving throughout its production life, from 1983 to 1987. Here in the UK the GT claimed two British Touring Car Championship titles and a series of top-level rally victories.

The GT 86 is a genuinely lightweight machine that offers the intimacy and involvement of a car that can be driven as though an extension of the driver's body. In this way, it perfectly recaptures the exhilarating spirit of the last of the AE86. And, with numerous customisable parts, its shares its predecessor's aim to be an affordable car that will evolve with its owner.

Another boring looking Toyota

it looks good IMHO

Too ricey for me.

Dat Ass (looks horrible IMO).

Looks like a Genesis and a 370Z had a unloved child.

Looks like a Genesis and a 370Z had a unloved child.

i was thinking the exact same thing.

Wheres the FI?

Styling fail. That thing is HIDEOUS.

And only 197 hp? It's 2011 for god's sake, 197 hp is what most vacuum cleaners make now.

I like the Subaru version better. Also I think FI will com into play in a (Subi) STI and (Toyo) TRD version down the line.

I like the Subaru version better. Also I think FI will com into play in a (Subi) STI and (Toyo) TRD version down the line.

I guess growing up in the 90s, I lose sleep over the fact that Toyota is so gay now with nothing cool/performance oriented. I yearn for a Supra type vehicle, we all know they can build one hell of a boosted engine..

Another boring looking ToyotaToo ricey for me.Dat Ass (looks horrible IMO).Looks like a Genesis and a 370Z had a unloved child.Styling fail. That thing is HIDEOUS.

And only 197 hp? It's 2011 for god's sake, 197 hp is what most vacuum cleaners make now.Agreed.

Hopefully for them it will handle/ride/stop far better than it looks because unless it's going to weigh under 2200 pounds a quickly accelerating beast it likely WILL NOT be LOL.

Looks like a Genesis and a 370Z had a unloved child.

Damn that was my exact thought when I saw it. Very 370zish especially from the side, except the 370z comes with 300+hp.

2600lb curb weight.

I like the BRZ STi concept. iirc Motor Trend or C&D got to drive the BRZ STi Concept, and it's basically like an enclosed Miata, but not as soft as the Miata. also 200bhp + 2500lbs curb weight (estimated) + 6-speed stick + RWD = FUN.

it'll probably be pretty damn good in auto-x events. everybody's bitching over the fact it only has 200bhp (estimated again btw), but it's not a damn drag car.

2600lb curb weight.

And that still puts it at a lower power to weight figure than a v6 mustang...

197/2600= .07576

VS.

305/3520= .08664

That saddest part is that its power to weight is even worse than a V6 Camry...

268/3461= .07743

:|
:jest:

BTW: The weight figures provided for the Camry and Mustang were those found by Car and Driver, not their respective manufacturers.

Hey, at least they're trying.

:|

turbo straight 6 and then we are talking lol :D

Sucks

Agreed.

Hopefully for them it will handle/ride/stop far better than it looks because unless it's going to weigh under 2200 pounds a quickly accelerating beast it likely WILL NOT be LOL.

Well said this was.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4lN5WbxBz-w/TbImvNzYwDI/AAAAAAAAABQ/VgtE1zXvj4c/s1600/25917_yoda%255B1%255D.jpg

turbo straight 6 and then we are talking lol :D

Unnecessary. It's a subaru flat 4, all it needs is the turbo. 250-280hp and this thing will be fun.

Wouldnt be that bad if it came with a inline boosted 6! Im not a import car guy but the supra was avery nice car

And that still puts it at a lower power to weight figure than a v6 mustang...

197/2600= .07576

VS.

305/3520= .08664

That saddest part is that its power to weight is even worse than a V6 Camry...

268/3461= .07743

:|
:jest:

BTW: The weight figures provided for the Camry and Mustang were those found by Car and Driver, not their respective manufacturers.

So in a straight line it's going to be about as fast as a Camry. Not my idea of a sports car. I don't care how well it can turn or stop, if it can't keep up on the straights then it's useless.

If I wanted to buy a slow, ugly import, there's already plenty to choose from.

And that still puts it at a lower power to weight figure than a v6 mustang...

197/2600= .07576

VS.

305/3520= .08664

That saddest part is that its power to weight is even worse than a V6 Camry...

268/3461= .07743

:|
:jest:

BTW: The weight figures provided for the Camry and Mustang were those found by Car and Driver, not their respective manufacturers.

All of this! WTF?? Why would they make something so slow during the horsepower war going on? I'm guessing the base price on this is going to be around the same as a V8 Mustang or Camaro and it would get the shit kicked out of it by either. I had high hopes for this car, but it needs at least a turbo'd 270+ horsepower engine.

So in a straight line it's going to be about as fast as a Camry. Not my idea of a sports car. I don't care how well it can turn or stop, if it can't keep up on the straights then it's useless.

If I wanted to buy a slow, ugly import, there's already plenty to choose from......... ^ this ^ :nod:

For not much more money (or maybe even less money?) the 370Z will destroy this thing....and if one absolutely needs the rear seats then there's always the 305hp Mustang V6 or 323hp Camaro V6.






http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4lN5WbxBz-w/TbImvNzYwDI/AAAAAAAAABQ/VgtE1zXvj4c/s1600/25917_yoda%255B1%255D.jpg

Unnecessary. It's a subaru flat 4, all it needs is the turbo. 250-280hp and this thing will be fun.Yes, more fun it might certainly be with 280hp. :lol: ;)

All of this! WTF?? Why would they make something so slow during the horsepower war going on? I'm guessing the base price on this is going to be around the same as a V8 Mustang or Camaro and it would get the shit kicked out of it by either. I had high hopes for this car, but it needs at least a turbo'd 270+ horsepower engine.

Toyota is trying to keep the outside appearance of being "green" perhaps? Maybe the tagline for the car will be "RWD can be green too" or some such retarded nonsense.

All it needs is an ls3, or a cliff to push it off

At least toyota has something sporty again. I personally think toyota still makes nice cars they just aren't exciting. My girlfriend's corolla is a nice little car. It's comfortable and it gets great mpg's. It also has way cooler gadgets on it compared with my car and it was half the price brand new. Her car is just a drag to drive. This car might be something a little more exciting than what toyota has been making the last 15 years or so.

With all the other boring models they sell you think theyd be able to make a low numbered performance car that theyll still make money on. This might be lamer than an MR2 sypder.

I miss the original MR2 :(

Yaris dressed like a Jaguar for Halloween.

I'd rock it. That thing would be fun as hell on a twisty road.

This will be ten times the driver's car of a V6 (and even a GT) Mustang or Camaro SS. It is the antithesis of an American muscle car and the philosophy and design harken back to the pure Japanese performance cars of the 1980s like the Corolla AE 86 and even the 90s. For all of you complaining about the near 4,000lb curb weight of large coupes today then this is your car.

The TRD and Subaru STi version of this car will likely be turbocharged but it isn't about horsepower, this thing is about turning and feeling light and lively while doing it. Outside of a Mini there aren't too many cars that are this light at an attainable price. Details for this set are everywhere in this car, including a trunk that can hold four track tires when you drive to events.

LOL at all of the people complaining about horsepower. Obviously this car isn't for you if you are complaining about horsepower. Its not my cup of tea but its a car meant for handling not going to the drag strip with.

And @DiscerningZ32 even if its power to weight is worse than a V6 Camry, its not fwd and would be significantly faster, and better handling due to better weight distribution and suspension.

This looks like an entry level sports car for Toyta. Honestly that's fine by me. I'm willing to bet that companies like COBB are already working on kits to up the capabilities of these little cars by a large amount. I also think the car would look better with a proper coilover setup and lower it a bit more, it looks taller than it is wide because of its current stance.

I'm more impressed with seeing the car under 3000lbs! I wish more companies would shed some weight on their cars. I drive to get places or to just enjoy driving, I don't need a freaking 500lbs worth of entertainment systems in my car.

That styling is pretty terrible, I had higher hopes for this car. We needed some import to help introduce the ricer youths to RWD performance, so that they'd eventually get it and buy a V8 RWD car later. Toyota designers should just go jump off a cliff, they fail continuously. Even their halo car the Lexus LF-A looks 10 years behind the times.

The 370Z looks better and more masculine than this car. Hopefully the Subaru version looks less comic-book looking.

Fugly!

The 370Z looks better and more masculine than this car. Hopefully the Subaru version looks less comic-book looking.

It's also $6,450 more than the projecting starting price of this car.

Subaru showed their STi concept version of the car at the LA Auto Show.

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/subaru/brz-sti/ns/subaru_brz-sti_f34_ns_1116112_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/subaru/brz-sti/ns/subaru_brz-sti_prf_ns_111611_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/subaru/brz-sti/ns/subaru_brz-sti_r34_ns_111611_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/subaru/brz-sti/ns/subaru_brz-sti_r34_ns_1116112_717.jpg

That Subaru looks sexy. Is it not AWD like all the others?

That styling is pretty terrible, I had higher hopes for this car. We needed some import to help introduce the ricer youths to RWD performance, so that they'd eventually get it and buy a V8 RWD car later. Toyota designers should just go jump off a cliff, they fail continuously. Even their halo car the Lexus LF-A looks 10 years behind the times.

The 370Z looks better and more masculine than this car. Hopefully the Subaru version looks less comic-book looking.

Not everyone wants a V8 RWD car...

Also if the second fastest car around the ring is 10 years behind the times then I wonder what that makes all the other cars that got slower times around the ring?

^He said looks, not performs..

^He said looks, not performs..

I don't know about that. As far as looks I would put the LF-A up there with the lookers like the Aventador but that's just my .2 cents.

Im not saying it looks bad, its not my cup of tea really. Just saying Tony attacked its looks, not the LF-A performance.

LOL at all of the people complaining about horsepower. Obviously this car isn't for you if you are complaining about horsepower. Its not my cup of tea but its a car meant for handling not going to the drag strip with.


Of course this is meant for handling and not drag racing, but that doesn't mean they had to make it slower than a freakin' Camry. IDK how anyone can even try to defend the 197hp in 2011, maybe in 1999 197hp would be fine for a car of this weight but not today. The 2600lb isn't even confirmed yet, is it? STI version is not going to have a turbo, that has already been confirmed; so it's just a no-balls, no-turbo, and over-priced car.

hehe... another car to put an LSx into

hehe... another car to put an LSx into

I'd much rather do an LS1 swap into a car that you can look at without vomiting.

I really don't understand all the hatred over the looks. To me it looks very chiseled and purpose-built. And even with "only" 197hp, I bet this car will be every bit as fast in a straight line as a V6 Camaro. 14.2 @ 98mph is my guess. But like TriShield said, that isn't what this car is about...some people get it, some people don't.

Edit: I also think the Subaru version looks even better, and can't wait for the STI.

And we get the Subaru and Scion versions here, not the Toyota version. So it won't look exactly like that, I'm guessing.

STI version is not going to have a turbo, that has already been confirmed; so it's just a no-balls, no-turbo, and over-priced car.

No boost? Thats lame since when do they do that?

check this out. it's how low that little boxer engine sits in the chassis.

http://www.subaru-global.com/11la/media/images/inspiration-4.jpg

damn thing is on the ground almost.

Looks like shit and its slow...pass.

Looks gross. Stance and wheels kill it for me.

Glad to see that Toyota and Subaru are jumping on the miata bandwagon

No thanks. I'll take a C5 for that much $$..

LOL at all of the people complaining about horsepower. Obviously this car isn't for you if you are complaining about horsepower. Its not my cup of tea but its a car meant for handling not going to the drag strip with.

And @DiscerningZ32 even if its power to weight is worse than a V6 Camry, its not fwd and would be significantly faster, and better handling due to better weight distribution and suspension.

I think this car is meant to be a cheap, sporty car. It will start in the low 20s from the Scion camp.

As far as being faster or handling better than a Camry, I wouldn't say that is something to brag about.

They are claiming 0-60 in 6 seconds, which makes for a very boring sports car, regardless of handling.

I think it looks fine, but unless it has the STI's 2.5l in it, I couldn't give a crap about it. That would at least make it accelerate like a new 5.0, but still offer the aspects fo a driver's car. The problem with that is they are actively trying to market this to recent college grads, and those changes would add to the price.

Hopefully STI will make a version of the BRZ with the 2.5 turbo motor in it, and ditch the dual injection crap that would probably make it impossible to come up with a turning strategy for it. Even if it added 100lbs to this car, it would be relatively easy to get 450 crank horsepower, and put on par with the 2013 GT500/C6 Z06. I could justify that to myself.

The one problem I do see is they have no other model to offer somoene who buys this car, when they want somehting a little more expensive and with a lot more performance. A 22year old that buys this car isn't going to want a Camry for thier next car when they are in their mid 20s.

I wouldn't say "boring," especially if you live someplace with good roads. This could end up being the best-handling car under $50k.

Unnecessary. It's a subaru flat 4, all it needs is the turbo. 250-280hp and this thing will be fun.

I'd like to see them put a turbo on a car with a 12.5:1 compression ratio.

Not bad sounding and it might make a decent Auto-X car for some. I want to see it with a few bolt-on's, lowering springs, and some nicer wheels, might actually be an alright little car after all that. Reminds me of an S2000 in a way, which is why it's starting to grow on me some.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPeHaDb36PM&feature=player_embedded#!

I wouldn't say "boring," especially if you live someplace with good roads. This could end up being the best-handling car under $50k.

Highly doubt that, a Boss Mustang would man handle this thing everywhere. I don't care how well a car can handle it still needs at least SOME power to have fun with it. Hell, it wouldn't even be that bad if it was the same 197hp but with an overly built engine and a turbo/supercharger on it; but 197 ponies and no FI just doesn't do anything for me.

You realize that there is a difference between "handling," and "going around a track." With an EXTREMELY low center of gravity, good weight distribution (not perfect, but good), a well designed independent suspension, and a 2,600lb curb weight, the feel of this car will be hard to beat. The sportier versions are going to be very impressive, I would wager.

You realize that there is a difference between "handling," and "going around a track." With an EXTREMELY low center of gravity, good weight distribution (not perfect, but good), a well designed independent suspension, and a 2,600lb curb weight, the feel of this car will be hard to beat. The sportier versions are going to be very impressive, I would wager.

I do, but what's the point in having the best handling car out there if you are getting beat at the track(road, not drag) by Camrys? The STI BRZ is more than likely not going to have a turbo(IIRC Subaru already said it wouldn't, but I'm not 100% on that), so short of doing an engine swap or building and turbocharging the stock engine, this thing is going to be SLOW.

That Subaru looks sexy. Is it not AWD like all the others?

I'm afraid it is RWD only. The powertrain is set too low in the car to accomodate AWD. But it does have one of the (if not the) lowest center of gravity of any sports car.

I don't care how well a car can handle it still needs at least SOME power to have fun with it.

Ever drive a slow car fast?

I do, [b]but what's the point in having the best handling car out there if you are getting beat at the track(road, not drag) by Camrys? The STI BRZ is more than likely not going to have a turbo(IIRC Subaru already said it wouldn't, but I'm not 100% on that), so short of doing an engine swap or building and turbocharging the stock engine, this thing is going to be SLOW.[/QUOTE]

I highly doubt this car is going to get passed at a road course by Camrys. Like I said, the car lacks power but it won't be lacking at all in the handling department. Hell it might be a great LS swap platform when it comes out. ;)

If the STI version runs mid 13s, it is going to be an absolute ball to drive fast. Even the base car will be extremely fun.

Well said sir lolStyling fail. That thing is HIDEOUS.

And only 197 hp? It's 2011 for god's sake, 197 hp is what most vacuum cleaners make now.

If the STI version runs mid 13s, it is going to be an absolute ball to drive fast. Even the base car will be extremely fun.

That's the problem, I doubt either version is going to run any better than mid-14s with a good driver. Time will tell, but so far the power and weight numbers are almost identical to that of a Type-R Integra (197HP, 26XXlbs), which ran high-14s to low-15s (and also came out ~15 years ago).

The Type R Integra ran mid 14s with a good driver. They were also FWD. So my bet is this car will be at least that quick. We still don't know about gearing, but it is RWD and has more torque than the Integra. As for the upcoming ~250hp version, you really think a car with that much power and that little weight won't run better than mid 14s? :confused:

The Type R Integra ran mid 14s with a good driver. They were also FWD. So my bet is this car will be at least that quick. We still don't know about gearing, but it is RWD and has more torque than the Integra. As for the upcoming ~250hp version, you really think a car with that much power and that little weight won't run better than mid 14s? :confused:

The type r may have been fwd but its not like it was hampered out of the hole with that power.

Also, i doubt 50hp will.shave more ring an a second off of the quarter mile time.

It will have a hard time competing with the 2.0t genesis coupe which has 271hp.this year and has a track pack with brembos. Not to mention much more power potential from boltons.

It wasn't hampered, but it still didn't get off the line as well as a RWD car with more torque that weighs the same. Subaru released technical specs, btw... 2,689lbs for the BRZ. I'll change my prediction to 14.4 @ 97mph. Might go quicker, but we'll see.

http://i.autoblog.com/2011/11/28/subaru-debuts-production-brz-sport-coupe/

Production base model BRZ.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/11/subaru-brz-production-tokyo.jpg

It looks... the same. down to the turn signal location.

Oh look they came up with something to compete with the Civic Si...of 2005. Seriously, toyota was making the same power in it's 20V engines back in the late 90's. FAIL

Oh look, somebody else that missed the point...

Really? Let's see, how did that last venture into the RWD ~200hp great handling car end for toyota? As I remember the last respectably powered MR2's stopped selling in 95.

The MR2 was pulled out of America because the sports car market here collapsed. Same with the RX7, Nissan Z, and 3000GT.

I would consider this car for daily use and keep my GT500 for the weekends

The MR-S had amazing handling too.
It wasn't exactly a success either...

The MR-S had amazing handling too.
It wasn't exactly a success either...

Thank you. I see good sales the first couple of years, then dying off until they pull it and shove more Prius's up our noses.

Any word as to whether this is replacing the Tc?

Real seats.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/wcbjr/70.jpg

Dat STi

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/wcbjr/6351238416_10eb8d9737_o.jpg

The MR-S had amazing handling too.
It wasn't exactly a success either...

That's a pointless parallel to draw, because we are talking about two COMPLETELY different cars. I think some of you people just like to bitch about everything; we're talking about a car that weighs the same as a Mini Cooper S (which everybody can agree is a fun car), but has basically 40hp more, and is RWD. With the largest emphasis placed on light weight and handling, which so many of you pretend to care about. And it's even rumored to start at a great price. But it doesn't run 12s, so it sucks. :eyes:

The blue Subaru version above looks much better than the Toyota.

LOL @ LF-A being on par with an Aventador. I've seen a few of both in person, there is no comparison there. Aventador >>>>> LFA. Most people walk by an LF-A thinking it is a 20-year old Supra with a body kit.

To be fair, most people are stupid.

The blue Subaru version above looks much better than the Toyota.

LOL @ LF-A being on par with an Aventador. I've seen a few of both in person, there is no comparison there. Aventador >>>>> LFA. Most people walk by an LF-A thinking it is a 20-year old Supra with a body kit.

Just stating my opinion also seeing both cars in person. I will agree though that in everything other than looks the Aventador >>>> LFA.

So who's gonna be the first to ls this heep?

With the largest emphasis placed on light weight and handling, which so many of you pretend to care about. And it's even rumored to start at a great price. But it doesn't run 12s, so it sucks. :eyes:

It's not even going to run 13s is the problem. The even bigger problem is that it's a high compression N/A motor, so making more power out of it once you get sick of getting beat by four-door family cars is going to be very pricey.

That's a pointless parallel to draw, because we are talking about two COMPLETELY different cars. I think some of you people just like to bitch about everything; we're talking about a car that weighs the same as a Mini Cooper S (which everybody can agree is a fun car), but has basically 40hp more, and is RWD. With the largest emphasis placed on light weight and handling, which so many of you pretend to care about. And it's even rumored to start at a great price. But it doesn't run 12s, so it sucks. :eyes:

Most people on this forum will not care about this car if it doers not accelerate well. Since that is relative, I am sure most people here are not impressed by a 98mph trap speed, especially when that number is close to so many pedestrian sedans. It might be fun to throw through a turnaround, or tool around on a clover leaf, but to must of us that will go out the window when we tried to accelerate to squeeze into a spot in traffic only to be denied by some blue hair in a Lexus ES350.

If this thing was going to come with the STI's turbo 2.5, I would probably be trying to track down ordering timeline and pricing.

Dat STi

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/wcbjr/6351238416_10eb8d9737_o.jpg

some strange Aston Martin styling cues as well as RX8 and WRX. great looking car, just so underpowered. i suppose itll be very simple to swap in a EJ255/257

The Miata still sales between 10-15k models a year in the U.S. so something tells me this thing will sell about 30k+ between the two different models offered here. That's enough to be considered successful in this segment especially when you consider how many boring cars they sell to retards elsewhere. I would personally drive the hell out of the Subaru, but honestly it either needs a little boost or rev to almost 8000rpm. So far neither looks to be happening.

Ya that Subie is sexy, but being RWD with no boost, ill pass. I swear no one makes a performance AWD vehicle that I like and need with Northeast winters..

The Miata still sales between 10-15k models a year in the U.S. so something tells me this thing will sell about 30k+ between the two different models offered here. That's enough to be considered successful in this segment especially when you consider how many boring cars they sell to retards elsewhere. I would personally drive the hell out of the Subaru, but honestly it either needs a little boost or rev to almost 8000rpm. So far neither looks to be happening.

Huh? The Miata is also one of (if not the) cheapest convertible on the market, and it has a HUGE following, so I doubt this will sell anywhere near twice as many. Not only that, but we still haven't been given a price on this car. With all the features it has I'm guessing it will start around $30k, I don't see it selling well at that price. If they can keep the price at or under $20k I could see it selling well, but there's no way that's going to happen.

Huh? The Miata is also one of (if not the) cheapest convertible on the market, and it has a HUGE following, so I doubt this will sell anywhere near twice as many. Not only that, but we still haven't been given a price on this car. With all the features it has I'm guessing it will start around $30k, I don't see it selling well at that price. If they can keep the price at or under $20k I could see it selling well, but there's no way that's going to happen.

Quoted for future reference. I'm guessing somewhere around $22k for one of them, at least.

Huh? The Miata is also one of (if not the) cheapest convertible on the market, and it has a HUGE following, so I doubt this will sell anywhere near twice as many. Not only that, but we still haven't been given a price on this car. With all the features it has I'm guessing it will start around $30k, I don't see it selling well at that price. If they can keep the price at or under $20k I could see it selling well, but there's no way that's going to happen.

It will come to America as a Scion (aka cheap toyota) and a Subaru. I'm willing to bet each model will sell about the same amount as the aging (and sales declining) Miata. Therefore about 30k units combined. They're something new and totally different than any other car in each manufacturers line-up. I agree with Irunelevens. The Scion version will probably go for anywhere between 22-25k and the Subaru will probably go for around 24-28k. Remember the WRX starts at 24,9XX with more expensive turbos and awd.

Quoted for future reference. I'm guessing somewhere around $22k for one of them, at least.

Quoted for future reference. I'm guessing somewhere around $22k for one of them, at least.

I would guess that would be the absolute lowest possible price.
After all, even a bare bones Scion TC starts at $19,305 (pre-shipped, etc.).
And that car is completely run-of-the-mill but with "unique" styling.

So who's gonna be the first to ls this heep?

I am betting the hood will be too low. Hopefully it will work though. These will be cheap on the used market.

I am betting the hood will be too low. Hopefully it will work though. These will be cheap on the used market.

I doubt that, Japanese sports cars like this usually hold their value pretty good.

That styling is pretty terrible, I had higher hopes for this car. We needed some import to help introduce the ricer youths to RWD performance, so that they'd eventually get it and buy a V8 RWD car later. Toyota designers should just go jump off a cliff, they fail continuously. Even their halo car the Lexus LF-A looks 10 years behind the times.

The 370Z looks better and more masculine than this car. Hopefully the Subaru version looks less comic-book looking.Of course this is meant for handling and not drag racing, but that doesn't mean they had to make it slower than a freakin' Camry. IDK how anyone can even try to defend the 197hp in 2011, maybe in 1999 197hp would be fine for a car of this weight but not today. The 2600lb isn't even confirmed yet, is it? STI version is not going to have a turbo, that has already been confirmed; so it's just a no-balls, no-turbo, and over-priced car.
Agreed. :nod:

Not everyone wants a V8 RWD car...True.
And not everyone wants a "supposed" performance car that's desperately weak when it comes to straight line performance either.
Good handling/braking and strong acceleration don't have to be mutually exclusive either, even in the $20k-$30k price range.





This will be ten times the driver's car of a V6 (and even a GT) Mustang or Camaro SS.Oh, yeah, 500 times more even. :eyes:
Exaggerate much?:huh: Especially considering that the freakin' thing isn't even out yet. :lol:

True.
And not everyone wants a "supposed" performance car that's desperately weak when it comes to straight line performance either.
Good handling/braking and strong acceleration don't have to be mutually exclusive either, even in the $20k-$30k price range.

Think of it as a better-handling, RWD Civic Si alternative. Or a slightly slower, WAY lighter, better-handling alternative to the V6 pony cars. Some people will trade a little straight line speed for a connected, nimble, responsive chassis.

Think of it as a better-handling, RWD Civic Si alternative. Or a slightly slower, WAY lighter, better-handling alternative to the V6 pony cars. Some people will trade a little straight line speed for a connected, nimble, responsive chassis.I agree. While I'm still VERY straight line performance (along with good handling) oriented I must admit, I've driven two different (stock) Miatas and even a Pontiac Solstice over the years and I was certainly able to appreciate/enjoy a nimble, sharp handling (yet somewhat slow) sports car like that. :nod:

A little perspective.

http://i.imgur.com/vKL7g.png

To make matters worse, it appears that only elfs will be able to fit in it, lol.

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/toyota/ft-86/2013/fd/2013_toyota_ft-86_actf34_fd_11291118_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/toyota/ft-86/2013/fd/2013_toyota_ft-86_actf34_fd_11291114_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/toyota/ft-86/2013/fd/2013_toyota_ft-86_actr34_fd_1129117_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/toyota/ft-86/2013/fd/2013_toyota_ft-86_crg_fd_1129111_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/toyota/ft-86/2013/fd/2013_toyota_ft-86_eng_fd_1129111_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/toyota/ft-86/2013/fd/2013_toyota_ft-86_fint_fd_1129111_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/toyota/ft-86/2013/fd/2013_toyota_ft-86_seat_fd_1129111_717.jpg

To make matters worse, it appears that only elfs will be able to fit in it, lol.:lol: :D Yeah I didn't realize it was actually that small LOL.
When I see a car that small it had better offer something REAL special in exchange for that sacrifice in space/interior room...and by that I mean WEIGHT.
In my opinion, before it warrants any kind of high praise and/or engineering honors it had better be super light if it's going to have under 200hp and be 'Miata sized'.

While it's not exactly earthshatteringly attractive, it's certainly not a bad looking car in some of those photos. I do like the smaller/lighter sports car (Lotus Elise for example) approach and the emphasis on lower center of gravity is a strong point as well.

Did you not see the weight? :confused:

Every inch of that car is overstyled. It's like the designers just threw as many different curves and creases and shapes together as possible and then called it a day. Nothing flows or makes any sense. And the interior is the same, just looks way too busy.

I guess I'm not the target buyer for this car, it's clearly styled to appeal to the Fast & Furious types. All it needs is a Supra wing and a horrible body kit and it's a ricer's wet dream.

That engine bay looks like it's going to be a nightmare to work on!

Maybe Toyota is planning on coming out with a Supra replacement soon and that's why they left all of the fun out of this one? Otherwise I really don't see why they are coming out with a car that's going to be right in the middle of the pack when it comes to under $30k cars that have already been out for a couple years.

Besides hoses and wires, I don't see what's so bad about that engine bay...and you keep only focusing on the engine. Hard concept for some on this site, but there is more to a car than its engine. Would this car suffer from a little more power? Of course not. But that does not make it a bad car. I can't wait to test drive one "enthusiastically." :drive:

Besides hoses and wires, I don't see what's so bad about that engine bay...and you keep only focusing on the engine. Hard concept for some on this site, but there is more to a car than its engine. Would this car suffer from a little more power? Of course not. But that does not make it a bad car. I can't wait to test drive one "enthusiastically." :drive:

I keep focusing on the engine because it's the Achilles’ heel of this car. I love everything about this car other than that (well, I don't LOVE the looks, but it looks pretty good IMO), but the fact that it comes with no power and no real option to upgrade it without investing some serious cash kills it. Had they gone with an engine that could take some boost (I know nobody has tried with this one yet, but a 12.5 to 1 compression ratio is more than likely not going to be a fan of boost) it wouldn't be so bad, but without ripping the engine apart I don't see this car making much more than 200whp, which is pretty weak by any standards.

Power/weight is important. This car is gonna be quicker than a Civic Si (most likely), weigh less, and be RWD. And even though it is most likely going to be a tick slower than a V6 Camaro, it is going to be so much better and more responsive in every other performance aspect. Some people will gladly trade a little speed for way better everything else.

Instead of saying it "will" be this and "will" be that, wait until there is some actual data available. You're making too many assumptions. For all we know they put a crappy suspension design in it, or a slow steering rack, or did something else lame.

Power/weight is important. This car is gonna be quicker than a Civic Si (most likely), weigh less, and be RWD.

I understand your point, but that's not exactly a good thing. Those cars are fun to drive, but they are really not great performers. I have a feeling this car will have the EXACT same thing going for it. Yeah, it should be fun to drive, might have nice handling and all that, but at the end of the day, it's still a slow, non-competitive car.

Well it does have struts in the front, but it has double-wishbone out back. And the smallest steering wheel ever put in a Toyota (if I recall)...so I doubt it has a slow steering rack. But sure, we can wait ;)

I like it, if I ever relocate back to an area with twisty roads in the daily drive I'd consider one.

To this day I've still want to drive a S2000 or a Lotus, the BRZ is in the same category.
I knew Fbodies were kinda large, but after this parked next to me one day it really put things in perspective size wise:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/camar0corey/94%20Z28/IMG_20110913_150244.jpg
I'm itching to drive something small and light.:lol:

^If you can fit in the Mustang or Genesis (or anything close in size to them, like say a 4th gen Fbody) then you can fit in a Miata or this car. Look at the picture again, but remember which ones have 2+2 and which one just have the 2.

I like it, if I ever relocate back to an area with twisty roads in the daily drive I'd consider one.

To this day I've still want to drive a S2000 or a Lotus, the BRZ is in the same category.
I knew Fbodies were kinda large, but after this parked next to me one day it really put things in perspective size wise:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/camar0corey/94%20Z28/IMG_20110913_150244.jpg
I'm itching to drive something small and light.:lol:

the lotus is less than 2000lbs...

That lotus is so small, it only has one windshield wiper! Haha I never noticed that :lol:

Did you not see the weight? :confused:In the original post/article (which is from Great Britain btw)? No, I didn't. Did you?
What I did see was a lot of preliminary speculation and assumption which really does make it quite difficult to differentiate fantasy from reality.
I think we need to wait until the actual left hand drive U.S. spec version is fully tested before knowing it's actual weight for sure.

I posted up Subaru's press release on page 4, though I do believe those are the UK specs. 2,689lbs for that version, and I don't see our version being much heavier. While that is an assumption, I'd say it's a fairly safe assumption that it will be very close to that.

Jalopnik summed up this car nicely.

The GT 86/FR-S/Subaru BRZ has us more excited than pretty much almost any car of the last decade. Unlike heavier, more powerful coupes, this 197 HP, 2,689 Lbs 2+2 appears to be the most pure driver's car on sale this side of a Lotus Elise. It should be cheap too; we're hoping for mid-$20s.

What's so hard to understand about this? Especially for a forum full of people who regularly complain about curb weight.

The US market version.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/12/scion-fr-s-debut.jpg

The car is virtually the same with just a badge swap retaining it's svelte curb weight and a full 200hp at a lofty 7,000 RPM.

Definitely going for a test drive when they hit dealers.

^If you can fit in the Mustang or Genesis (or anything close in size to them, like say a 4th gen Fbody) then you can fit in a Miata or this car. Look at the picture again, but remember which ones have 2+2 and which one just have the 2.

The Scion and Subie are both 2+2s, not to mention have a much lower roof line. I am too staright to sit in a Miata, so I am assuming my 6'3", 225lb frame will not fit very well.

Jalopnik summed up this car nicely.

The GT 86/FR-S/Subaru BRZ has us more excited than pretty much almost any car of the last decade. Unlike heavier, more powerful coupes, this 197 HP, 2,689 Lbs 2+2 appears to be the most pure driver's car on sale this side of a Lotus Elise. It should be cheap too; we're hoping for mid-$20s.

What's so hard to understand about this? Especially for a forum full of people who regularly complain about curb weight.

Most of the people on here are complain about weight becasue it is dilutive to the power to weight ratio. Removing weight will make those pople happy, but not if it doesn't have enough power.

Remember your audience is predominately made up of drag racers and street racers who like to go fast, not road racers and auto-xers that are much more concerned about vehicle balance and handling.

As far as comparisons to the civic SI, that car was also a turd that has a hard time out pacing a camry. Looking at this, it seems the 2012 V6 Camry will actually be faster than both from 0-60 and the 1/4 mile. (5.8 and 14.1 @ 101mph)
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/toyota-camry-se-v6-road-test-review

Think about that for a second. They developed a "sports car" that is slower than their very own large family sedan, which is widely viewed as boring and appliance like.

Mazda's Rx-8 was also billed as a driver's car that possesed very nice handling, but was also under powered. I think we all know how well that worked. The more irksome part here is that the hotter motors are readily available and would probably bolt in with minimal changes, yet they come forward and say they will not offer them.

At least Toyota knows the DI doesn't work without some manner of port fuel injection.

The Scion and Subie are both 2+2s, not to mention have a much lower roof line. I am too staright to sit in a Miata, so I am assuming my 6'3", 225lb frame will not fit very well.

same thing i though about a Lotus Exige, but i was able to slide my 6'2" 210lbs frame into one quite easily, and it was quite comfortable (too bad i didn't get to drive it though). just because a vehicle is a little on the smaller side, doesn't mean it's small on the inside.

Instead of saying it "will" be this and "will" be that, wait until there is some actual data available. You're making too many assumptions. For all we know they put a crappy suspension design in it, or a slow steering rack, or did something else lame.

And the same goes for those who assume this won't sell well or actually be a competitive car.

I honestly see this as a prime competitor for the Miata/Lotus which it what they were aiming for in design.

Most of the people on here are complain about weight becasue it is dilutive to the power to weight ratio. Removing weight will make those pople happy, but not if it doesn't have enough power.

Remember your audience is predominately made up of drag racers and street racers who like to go fast, not road racers and auto-xers that are much more concerned about vehicle balance and handling.

As far as comparisons to the civic SI, that car was also a turd that has a hard time out pacing a camry. Looking at this, it seems the 2012 V6 Camry will actually be faster than both from 0-60 and the 1/4 mile. (5.8 and 14.1 @ 101mph)
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/toyota-camry-se-v6-road-test-review

Think about that for a second. They developed a "sports car" that is slower than their very own large family sedan, which is widely viewed as boring and appliance like.

Mazda's Rx-8 was also billed as a driver's car that possesed very nice handling, but was also under powered. I think we all know how well that worked. The more irksome part here is that the hotter motors are readily available and would probably bolt in with minimal changes, yet they come forward and say they will not offer them.Exactly. :nod:

The red one in the photo one page back doesn't look too bad and it could possibly be a nice overall package if it really does come out in the $25k range. But personally, I'd still find a way drop the extra coin and be all over a base 370Z (only $31k before haggling, also fantastic handling and umm, oh yeah, 332hp LOL) long before this torqueless wonder.
And please don't throw the "yeah but this one has back seats" retort at me, this FT-86 has "back seats" much in the way that a Miata has good towing capabilities. :lol:

Definitely going for a test drive when they hit dealers.

x2...

What I think when I read about that car is... S2000 - 200lbs - 40hp + better handling. While not very fast, sounds like a helluva car to drive hard. Cuz there are roads around here where you can do that.

And the same goes for those who assume this won't sell well or actually be a competitive car.

I honestly see this as a prime competitor for the Miata/Lotus which it what they were aiming for in design.

Competitive against what, and in what capacity? People are not going to cross shop this with the Elise or the Miata. This platform is flexible enough to offer both a convertible and a sedan off of, so maybe then it can look at taking some miata sales which were about 6300 in the US last year, and will be under 6000 for 2011.

Don't get me wrong. I like the fact that they are getting back into this market somewhat, but give the car some power. Even the base WRX engine would leave more room for aftermarket upgrades.

^If you can fit in the Mustang or Genesis (or anything close in size to them, like say a 4th gen Fbody) then you can fit in a Miata or this car. Look at the picture again, but remember which ones have 2+2 and which one just have the 2.

Being able to fit, and getting in and out without looking like a jackass are different stories...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=pf0Fcbk_2t0

Remember your audience is predominately made up of drag racers and street racers who like to go fast

I already know this, just trying to broaden some horizons. ;)

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8098/pictureko.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/pictureko.jpg/)

yes please.

Yeah, I'd hit that.

i've always loved the Genesis... but have heard warry stories regarding the powerplant. This might be a better alternative, toyota makes some pretty nice things. Gutless or not, still probably a blast to drive, just like an S2K.

Yeah, I'd hit that.

x2.

With a sledgehammer. :jest:

Give the aftermarket time to catch up, and this thing will be a monster. Internals swap, turbo, and the tuning bugs figured out.. it has legend potential IMO. Hopefully, the block is tough, but what block isn't these days?

Give the aftermarket time to catch up, and this thing will be a monster. Internals swap, turbo, and the tuning bugs figured out.. it has legend potential IMO. Hopefully, the block is tough, but what block isn't these days?

Wait so you spend how much money buying a brand new car and then dump a bunch of money into it just to make it as fast as what... a stock LS1 from the late 90s?

Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.

For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.

For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.

Oh but who cares if this car gets its ass kicked at the drag strip and the race track, it's all about having a car that puts a smile on your face as you watch someone blow by in their Camry (at the strip and I honestly thing around a track, probably not an auto-x course though), or when some soccer mom shuts you down with her minivan when you try to pass her :jest:

Hopefully they come out with a version that's equipped with the WRX engine so it will at least keep up with V6 Mustangs :jest:

I doubt people looking to buy this car will even think about getting an AT MINIMUM 8 year old Corvette. I swear, this is like trying to explain to RedHotG8 why I prefer manual transmissions :bang:

Wait so you spend how much money buying a brand new car and then dump a bunch of money into it just to make it as fast as what... a stock LS1 from the late 90s?

Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.

For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.

Why are you comparing a BRAND NEW car to a car that's 10 years old with no warranty. Some people care about those things. Not everyone is like you and willing to buy a car that's not covered by a warranty.

Why are you comparing a BRAND NEW car to a car that's 10 years old with no warranty. Some people care about those things. Not everyone is like you and willing to buy a car that's not covered by a warranty.

Looking at cars in the same price range (under $30k) that have been out for a few years already this car is going to get beat everywhere; so even comparing it to brand new cars shows that it sucks performance-wise. I just don't understand why they build such a great platform and then kill any chance it had at competing by not giving it any power.

I don't think anyone here considers 7000rpm "lofty".

For the Camry vs Civic Si same family comment - HONDA Civic, TOYOTA Camry, not offered by the same company.

The looks arguement could last forever as it's purely subjective, so I won't say either way, but I bet this car appeals to certain people no doubt.

Driving dynamics - the arguements on hp vs weight/handling, etc are all valid based on individual driving preferences. Most here want torque, throttle response, then handling/low weight. However, this is a small community of car owners compared to the general public, and the general public rarely cross-shops 1/4 mile ETs when buying a car....
They go into a showroom, take the saleperson's pitch for a test drive, love or hate the car and make their decision from there.

My problem with this type of car is the same as say my issue with the RX-8. It gives the impression that it's fast when driving/riding in this small type of car....then every uneducated kid who gets their hands on one, goes out street racing every car he can find - his/her excuse for losing - "Yeah, but my car handles better and is way lighter than your pig," which is sometimes true, but remember that handling prowess doesn't always go to the lightest car. It is true that a car can have more weight, more power, and BETTER handling.

I'm not trying to say this car is garbage, I don't mind it at all. It's not for me, but I do think they will sell to a certain market. (I will be surprised to see it hit Miata sales figures, but who knows).

Some people want a great all around performance car without breaking the bank too much, and being reliable. Those people will buy a C5 Z06.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ. :)

I doubt people looking to buy this car will even think about getting an AT MINIMUM 8 year old Corvette. I swear, this is like trying to explain to RedHotG8 why I prefer manual transmissions :bang:

Good god, the horse is long dead, mangled, limbs coming off and everything. We get it, you think this car will be fun despite its lack power, just drop it already. Will the car be fun pushing the limits on the track? Very likely! Will the car be fun driving around on the street? Highly doubt it, atleast not for some. When you are used to endless torque at the touch of the throttle, beautiful sounds coming out of the exhaust (even at idle), and just that overall muscle feel you will likely be bored driving this on the street.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.

Looking at cars in the same price range (under $30k) that have been out for a few years already this car is going to get beat everywhere; so even comparing it to brand new cars shows that it sucks performance-wise. I just don't understand why they build such a great platform and then kill any chance it had at competing by not giving it any power.

That is stupid logic because, because comparing a brand new car to a car a few years old, I can get a used C6 Z06 for a lower price than a brand new GT500 and even to an extent less than a brand new fully loaded Gen 5 Camaro or CTS-V. Also we don't know what its gonna do exactly performance wise. They state 197hp and 2689lbs thats all we know. Just because a 2012 Camry can do something performance wise doesn't mean its going to be a better performer all around.

Toyota should stop being retarded and catch up with nissan and and remake the supra and acura should drop the nsx bomb on us already.. I would like to see a worthy import battle again. instead of lame evo vs sti, that is old already.

Some people want a great all around performance car without breaking the bank too much, and being reliable. Those people will buy a C5 Z06.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ. :)

You know an elise is more expensive than both of the cars you mentioned. Also you aren't going to break the bank with a FT86. Its not all about being trendy. The BR-Z isn't out yet so we have yet to say that it isn't a drivers car or a decent track car. The Miata is not fast but its a great track and drivers car.

Good god, the horse is long dead, mangled, limbs coming off and everything. We get it, you think this car will be fun despite its lack power, just drop it already. Will the car be fun pushing the limits on the track? Very likely! Will the car be fun driving around on the street? Highly doubt it, atleast not for some. When you are used to endless torque at the touch of the throttle, beautiful sounds coming out of the exhaust (even at idle), and just that overall muscle feel you will likely be bored driving this on the street.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.

This whole comment is subjective. Just because you like a certain exhaust tone or type of throttle response doesn't mean its for everybody. Its easy to say these things here but in the general car community the opnions will be vastly different.

Bottom line the car wasn't aimed at most of the people here who are looking for price for performance and a crapload of power, its for the guys looking for a car similar to the Miata, thats a hardtop etc.

As one person said above though which I fear is that some ricer will take the car and act like its the fastest car on the road just because its a light car.

So you must think the V6 Camaro REALLY sucks, gocart. Runs 14s AND weighs a thousand pounds more than this

^Yes I do, but even with an extra 1000lbs of weight I would still put my money on that car beating this one everywhere.

That is stupid logic because, because comparing a brand new car to a car a few years old, I can get a used C6 Z06 for a lower price than a brand new GT500 and even to an extent less than a brand new fully loaded Gen 5 Camaro or CTS-V. Also we don't know what its gonna do exactly performance wise. They state 197hp and 2689lbs thats all we know. Just because a 2012 Camry can do something performance wise doesn't mean its going to be a better performer all around.

Where did I say anything about a used car? I'm talking brand new cars that have been out for a few years already that beat this car everywhere with an MSRP under $30k. The V6 and V8 Mustang, Genisis V6, V6 Camaro (and possibly the V8 depending on where they price this car), just to list a few.

Wait so you spend how much money buying a brand new car and then dump a bunch of money into it just to make it as fast as what... a stock LS1 from the late 90s?

Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.

For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.

I see your point and agree with you since I feel kind of the same way, to an extent. However, this Toyota is I guess what's called a "drivers car", similar to an S2000, Miata, etc., while they're slow, they are a blast to drive at the limit. That pretty much seems to be the purpose of this car, it's not really meant to be very competitive, just a fun, inexpensive little car. Which is cool, but at the end of the day it's still slow :judge:

Why are you comparing a BRAND NEW car to a car that's 10 years old with no warranty. Some people care about those things. Not everyone is like you and willing to buy a car that's not covered by a warranty.

So you're saying you have to buy this slow car because of the warranty, but if you mod it to make it half way fast, the warranty will be voided anyway. Z06 please.

Some people want a great all around performance car without breaking the bank too much, and being reliable. Those people will buy a C5 Z06.
Some people want a light weight, bare bones, all out drivers cars. Those people will buy an Elise.
Some people want to be trendy, brand loyal and get a warranty. Those people will buy the FT86/BRZ. :)



Good god, the horse is long dead, mangled, limbs coming off and everything. We get it, you think this car will be fun despite its lack power, just drop it already. Will the car be fun pushing the limits on the track? Very likely! Will the car be fun driving around on the street? Highly doubt it, atleast not for some. When you are used to endless torque at the touch of the throttle, beautiful sounds coming out of the exhaust (even at idle), and just that overall muscle feel you will likely be bored driving this on the street.
Ive driven a couple miata's before, I know the they are great fun pushing 11/10ths on the track because of their size/weight, nimbleness and they just go where you point them, easy to control etc. But on the street(not a curvy back road), good lord they are boring. Gutless, slow, sound terrible, and not enjoyable until you push them hard.
In contrast just cruising on the street in something like a C5 Z06, hearing that gorgeous exhaust rumble, and feeling all that torque, without pushing the car at all, is something completely different, fun - and you still get that very tight, taught feel.
I understand the merits of both types of cars. And I also understand that most of the stuff you mentioned is purely subjective. Both types of cars we're talking about are fun in their own ways, and it's up to each individual buyer to decide what they want from a car. And you're right, this has been beaten to death. From both sides.

So you're saying you have to buy this slow car because of the warranty, but if you mod it to make it half way fast, the warranty will be voided anyway. Z06 please.


Who said the person buying the car is going to mod it. Also as a C5 Z06 owner I can tell you there are people who aren't overly concerned with going fast and actually want a car that doesn't have outdated pop up headlights or a sub par interior. Lets not forget to mention the record of that used Z06 you buy due to people like me and some others who possibly will return their cars to stock when they sell them after putting a crap load of mods in the car, making it a gamble with the record of the used Z06.

Like I said before comparing an old car to a new car is retarded at best.

Who said the person buying the car is going to mod it. Also as a C5 Z06 owner I can tell you there are people who aren't overly concerned with going fast and actually want a car that doesn't have outdated pop up headlights or a sub par interior. Lets not forget to mention the record of that used Z06 you buy due to people like me and some others who possibly will return their cars to stock when they sell them after putting a crap load of mods in the car, making it a gamble with the record of the used Z06.

The C5 with its "outdated" pop-up headlights looks 100000x better than this Toyota. So the interior of the C5 isn't that great, well I don't see anything nice about this car's interior either.

And considering that you can get a C6 these days for under $30k, with its updated styling and better interior, walking away from a clean used C6 (which are mostly owned by 60 year old men who drive them at 40 mph) or C5 Z06 for a slow, ugly Toyota, now that's retarded.

Wait so you spend how much money buying a brand new car and then dump a bunch of money into it just to make it as fast as what... a stock LS1 from the late 90s?

Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.

For the money I'd rather buy a clean C5 Z06 that'll whoop this little ricer at the dragstrip AND around a circuit.

I'd be okay with this car as fast as a stock ls1 from the 90's.. but, no. I'm talking a real turbo and real tuning, more in the 400-500+ hp range. And whatever else the aftermarket comes up with. We all know that it'll be underpowered as all hell, which should kill a bit of the market price after say 3-5 years, which is when I'm hoping on the aftermarket to come in. Will it take a C5 Z06 dollar for dollar? Maybe, but that's also one HELL of a car to be compared against and, I believe, says a lot about the potential we're discussing.

Cliffs: It has a great setup and huge potential in my opinion. Fix the weak engine with some boost and a tune that takes advantage of the DI, plus internals.. and it will compare to a C5 Z06. On the track, street, or the strip. Especially once it's as old as the Z06 is now.

Civic Si vs camry, is not even the same class. Civic si would be against corolla, and the camry would have to go against the accord or TL, Honda owns toyota (Excluding SUpra and yes LFA but that is 400k price tag( which is not worth that.) Anyways, subaru and toyota combining to create a car, and this is what they come up with I am dissappointed. Miatas are dead, they should not even make those cars anymore I never see them.

Will it take a C5 Z06 dollar for dollar? Maybe, but that's also one HELL of a car to be compared against and, I believe, says a lot about the potential we're discussing.

The opposite is true. It just shows how useless this car is when it's going to be losing quite badly to cars that were brand new when I was still in elementary school.

Dude...this car is gonna be close to $20k. It's not exactly terrible that it doesn't perform like a $55k car did 7-10 years ago.

Dude...this car is gonna be close to $20k. It's not exactly terrible that it doesn't perform like a $55k car did 7-10 years ago.

A basic LS1 Z28 was $20k back in 1998. I'm not saying a stock F-body will handle as well as this Toyota but it'll rape this thing in a straight line.

Sure will, very good!

It's a completely different type of car, it's not meant to be compared to old 10 year old Corvette's and F-Body's. Like I said before, it's a new, inexpensive, responsive, fun, small car, similar to a Miata or an S2000. It is not meant for being super competitive, that kind of thing is for a different market of buyers and this car does not fall into that category. The hillbilly's in here can't seem to comprehend that though...

It's a completely different type of car, it's not meant to be compared to old 10 year old Corvette's and F-Body's. Like I said before, it's a new, inexpensive, responsive, fun, small car, similar to a Miata or an S2000. It is not meant for being super competitive, that kind of thing is for a different market of buyers and this car does not fall into that category. The hillbilly's in here can't seem to comprehend that though...

*Like*

There's other cars besides old F-bodies and Corvettes I'd much rather have besides this thing.

How about a WRX or the new V6 Mustang... both are brand new cars around $25k, 4 seaters, with factory warranties.

Other cars YOU would rather have. You seem to be unable to realize that there are people who do not think the way you do about cars.

Here, this will make everyone happy if they follow through and make it a model vs an aftermarket kit (too bad it's a supercharger but better than nothing)-

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260343/

280hp for this and price it around $28k and they would have a winner.

Reviews are out on it now, near 2800lbs and a 54/46 weight split...that's not very impressive for a 200hp car. Everywhere says $25k for base price, but nothing on that is confirmed yet.

Automobile magazine-

"We saw an indicated 132 mph in the manual-transmission BRZ, and the 2.0-liter was still pulling. It seemed a long shot that it would make it to 143 mph, which is the estimated top speed an engineer gave us. On the other hand, a BRZ automatic couldn't pull past 128 mph, and that same engineer estimates it will make it to 137 mph – so perhaps the track was headed up a slight grade. The manual transmission car should be able to hit 60 mph in just under 7 seconds; the automatic just over"

That puts it at about a low 15sec 1/4 mile :gtfo: and it would be neck and neck with a Leaf to 60 :jest: They really need to come out with that supercharged (or a turbocharged) model, because that is just sad.

it's a nice car but anything more than 20K for this car is to much IMO

Yeah...

I don't see it stealing any potential Mazda Miata owners.

I can see it taking away some potential Scion Tc buyers, so there's that.

Hold on, Toyota makes the Scion Tc... :lol:


No, it looks like a decent car. I'm just not sure what market segment they're going for.
My guess would be the same as that for the V6 mustang, V6 camaro, Altima coupe, Civic Si, Scion Tc, etc.

Other cars YOU would rather have. You seem to be unable to realize that there are people who do not think the way you do about cars.

Certainly everyone has the right to buy the car THEY want to buy. And I will enjoy smoking this car in my 10 year old yank tank.

Good for you. If that is what driving is about to you (light bolt-on, stock gear/stall...just guessing you have a limited view of "fun"), then have fun.

Here, this will make everyone happy if they follow through and make it a model vs an aftermarket kit (too bad it's a supercharger but better than nothing)-

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260343/

280hp for this and price it around $28k and they would have a winner.

Ehh even though that looks promising, I feel like itll be within the price range of a 370z, which Id rather have even with the boost in power.

Good for you. If that is what driving is about to you (light bolt-on, stock gear/stall...just guessing you have a limited view of "fun"), then have fun.

Yeah my nearly stock 10 year old car will drag the shit out of this brand new $25k "sports car." Always fun whooping brand new cars at the dragstrip that cost more than twice as much as mine.

Yeah my nearly stock 10 year old car will drag the shit out of this brand new $25k "sports car." Always fun whooping brand new cars at the dragstrip that cost more than twice as much as mine.

And there are Honda Civics out there that would drag the shit out of your car for 1/4 of what your car cost, does that make them better?

And there are Honda Civics out there that would drag the shit out of your car for 1/4 of what your car cost, does that make them better?

With just intake and exhaust??

Personally I think you wasted money getting an '02. Following your thought process, you should have just gotten a '98 and saved yourself a few thousand dollars. :eyes:

Personally I think you wasted money getting an '02. Following your thought process, you should have just gotten a '98 and saved yourself a few thousand dollars. :eyes:

So because you don't like that I'm so critical of this Toyota you've decided to just bash me and my car, I don't get it, does it make you feel better or something?

I haven't been hostile towards you sir. I have the right to my opinion about this car and you shouldn't get personally offended by it. Maybe you like it, but I don't, no need to get offended about it.

So because you don't like that I'm so critical of this Toyota you've decided to just bash me and my car, I don't get it, does it make you feel better or something?

Wow, that just went completely over your head... :bang:

Edit: Here, let me make it even more clear for you; you are critical of the car because it is newer and more expensive than your 10 year old Camaro. So following that logic, it would have been better for you to get a '98 instead of an '02, because then you would have an even older car that costs less than your car. Which, in your flawed logic, makes it a better buy.

Wow, that just went completely over your head... :bang:

No it didn't, I understand you're trying to be a pain in my ass for reasons I do not know. I don't like this new Toyota, I've stated my opinions without attacking anyone personally, so why the hostility dude?

The fact that you perceive any hostility shows that you didn't understand what I said. I am trying to show you the flaw in your "bang for the buck" argument. I don't care if you don't like the car.

So basically in a thread supposed to be about this Toyota, I'm forced to explain why I bought an 02 Camaro instead of a 98. Oh well, if you insist...

My car is my daily driver, not a weekend fun car. I was willing to sacrifice a little bit of cash to get a low mileage 02 that would have fewer upkeep issues to deal with than a higher mileage 98. I'm sure I could have gotten a 98 for cheaper but I found this car for sale, I wanted it, so I bought it. Could I have gotten a better deal? Probably. Would this Toyota be a better deal? Hell no.

^Really?

The fact that you perceive any hostility shows that you didn't understand what I said. I am trying to show you the flaw in your "bang for the buck" argument. I don't care if you don't like the car.

Clearly his "bang for the buck" argument is only valid when he uses it.

^Really?



Clearly his "bang for the buck" argument is only valid when he uses it.

Clearly. He bought a newer car, with fewer miles, for more money, for reasons other than speed...but yet he seems to be unable to make the connection. Glad I'm not the only one that sees the humor.

^Really?



Clearly his "bang for the buck" argument is only valid when he uses it.

So you're saying this Toyota has good bang for the buck compared to brand new cars like the WRX and V6 Mustang, or used cars like F-bodies and Corvettes?

I disagree. Prove me wrong instead of attacking my car for being stock or being an 02, or whatever other nonsense.

We are saying that there is more to it than "bang for the buck." And at the same time, illustrating that you agree. Hence, why you got the car you did.

This whole arguement is kind of retarded. Everyone bitches about new muscle cars weighing too much when they have serious power. Now everyone is bitching that this "light" car doesnt have enough power. Pretty much a perfect car that appeals to everyone will never exist. Am I excited over this Toyota? No, not in the least bit. I had an 04 Celica GTS. I believe the curb weight was around 2500 lbs and it was rated at 180ish hp. It revved up pretty damn high and the only difference was it was FWD. Honestly compared to my WS6 the only thing I liked more about it was that it was better in rain and easier to park. For this price range Id be interested in the new Golf R that is coming out in a few months. It has more power and is AWD. While not quite as light thats the best bang for the buck IMO. Everyone is going to like different things and have different reasons to justify what they bought or why they spent the money they did. No need for bickering.

We are saying that there is more to it than "bang for the buck." And at the same time, illustrating that you agree. Hence, why you got the car you did.

I bought a low mileage 02 because it's better bang for the buck from the perspective of needing a daily driver with no upkeep issues. If I had saved a grand or two and got an older car with more miles, I might have to spend MORE money replacing the alternator, starter, fuel pump, etc.

How does this have anything to do with discussing if this new Toyota is a good car or not?

You were never talking about how good it was. You were talking about how your ten year old Camaro was faster.

How does this have anything to do with discussing if this new Toyota is a good car or not?

How does your 10 year old Camaro being faster than a brand new Toyota with a warranty have anything to do with the discussion? :bang:

With just intake and exhaust??

Do you know how many little budget Honda street cars are out there that would walk your high 12 second Camaro?

Do you know how many little budget Honda street cars are out there that would walk your high 12 second Camaro?

"But they need more work than me!"

You were never talking about how good it was. You were talking about how your ten year old Camaro was faster.

Right. Because I don't think it's a good car. One reason why is because there's a lot of faster cars out there for a lot less money.

How does your 10 year old Camaro being faster than a brand new Toyota with a warranty have anything to do with the discussion? :bang:

Because they're both performance cars, one being clearly faster and cheaper than the other.

Do you know how many little budget Honda street cars are out there that would walk your high 12 second Camaro?

Yeah I've been beaten by a few. I would not however like to drive a gutted tin can to work everyday.

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8098/pictureko.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/pictureko.jpg/)Ok, that (aftermarket modified/tuner version) is not bad looking at all, reminds me a bit of an early 240Z/260Z with an updated nose. :nod:




Forgive my bench racing but I imagine this car stock should be good for 14s. Getting this car into the 12s isn't going to be a piece of cake. It already weighs nothing so I doubt there's much to be gained with weight reduction, it's not already boosted so a turbo setup would have to be fabricated, etc.Not to mention it's 12.5:1 compression ratio and how 'boost unfriendly' that can be. :nono:

I like the Subie version.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/12/12-2013-subaru-brz-fd-opt.jpg

Do you know how many little budget Honda street cars are out there that would walk your high 12 second Camaro?

Very very few would walk his camaro. There is'nt that many fast honda's.....can those 2 words even be used in the same sentence:confused:

There are TONS of fast Hondas out there. Many of them are in the DC/VA/MD metro area.

I guess it would depend on what you consider fast. But even the if 13's was fast there would'nt be a TON of them. There are 2 12sec Honda's in my town that I know of....and they are the fastes ones.

10s/11s...maybe your town isn't the best place to look for examples.

The list would get whittled down to almost nothing anywhere in the country for street trin hondas to run 10's. There's probally a few in the 11's.

You watch to much Fast and Furious.

No, I pay attention. But you can think whatever you'd like.

Appearenly you don't go to the track much.....I don't go alot but I have went and ran 3 times this year including once to MIR.....Guess what??? No 10 sec Honda's on any of those outings. There were a couple 11 sec shit boxes there, nothing nice.

Hell I do remember 2 11sec new VW's. They were pretty impressive because their cars were'nt ripped to peices like it takes most Honda's to get there.

I forgot, you think that if it doesn't happen near you, it doesn't happen. Are 10s Hondas as common as 10s Fox Bodies? Of course not. But they are out there, and there are more of them than you think.

Hell 10 sec street driven fox bodies are'nt that common.....same goes for f-bodys. Hell I think I was the fastest ls f-body all 3 times at the track....and I don't run 10's . A 10sec street Honda would be like seeing a unicorn.

Ok ;)

They should have called it a Celica.

They should have called it a Celica.

Would of been more fitting. FT-86 seems kind of odd.

tC= Toyota Celica. FT-86 is reminiscent of the AE86 Corolla, which this car pays homage to.

Very very few would walk his camaro. There is'nt that many fast honda's.....can those 2 words even be used in the same sentence:confused:

Wrong, open up your eyes. A good friend of mines has a nice EG hatch with a junkyard H22 that he daily drive's that's right up there with my car, doesn't have any major weight reduction or anything like that. It's not hard to have a fast street-driven Honda, you just have to know what you're working with.

Go run him from a dig and report back to us. Track times??

Hell 10 sec street driven fox bodies are'nt that common.....same goes for f-bodys. Hell I think I was the fastest ls f-body all 3 times at the track....and I don't run 10's . A 10sec street Honda would be like seeing a unicorn.


what the hell? I can't tell if you're being serious or just trolling. If you've really only been to the track 3 times, you have absolutely no weight in deciding how many fast street cars are around you, or anywhere else in the world.

go look in the 10 second section, and tell me how many of those guys drive their cars on the street. probably 98% of them. As for fast honda's, there are a shit ton of them. Get out of that mountain village you live in.

EDIT: i would think for having a STREET CAR that runs 11.1's, you wouldn't be so dense about this subject.

I have been in the 10sec section. There's not even a full page of posts. I figured that out pretty good for a dense guy.

I'd rock it. That thing would be fun as hell on a twisty road.

So would I. About damn time they came out with something like this.

LOL at all of the people complaining about horsepower. Obviously this car isn't for you if you are complaining about horsepower. Its not my cup of tea but its a car meant for handling not going to the drag strip with.

And @DiscerningZ32 even if its power to weight is worse than a V6 Camry, its not fwd and would be significantly faster, and better handling due to better weight distribution and suspension.

Agreed

I miss the original MR2 :(

MK1 MR2s rock. I had an 86 and have a 88 SC. God they are FUN to drive and I would kill for an 85-86 in blue

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x241/Mike92LX/1245525769.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x241/Mike92LX/mr2-pics-6.jpg


tC= Toyota Celica. FT-86 is reminiscent of the AE86 Corolla, which this car pays homage to.

Yes and that car was slow too in the straights. I never understood why they went for some much money. I had an orginal red one that I sold for a shitload of money. Boring car to drive

http://www.mk3.us/mike/gtspic.asp

This whole arguement is kind of retarded. Everyone bitches about new muscle cars weighing too much when they have serious power. Now everyone is bitching that this "light" car doesnt have enough power. Pretty much a perfect car that appeals to everyone will never exist. Am I excited over this Toyota? No, not in the least bit. I had an 04 Celica GTS. I believe the curb weight was around 2500 lbs and it was rated at 180ish hp. It revved up pretty damn high and the only difference was it was FWD. Honestly compared to my WS6 the only thing I liked more about it was that it was better in rain and easier to park. For this price range Id be interested in the new Golf R that is coming out in a few months. It has more power and is AWD. While not quite as light thats the best bang for the buck IMO. Everyone is going to like different things and have different reasons to justify what they bought or why they spent the money they did. No need for bickering.

Good post. I could never get into the 00-04 GTS cars too much...

There are TONS of fast Hondas out there. Many of them are in the DC/VA/MD metro area.

You are correct. I know at least 10 around here that are daily drivers and they would clobber my Z. Popular car around here to mod

Lol @ the 10 sec car discussion here!
If this car was built for handling, then it would sport a better weight distribution than 54/46 fr/rr. Not saying it won't handle, but as a platform w/o hp (the biggest arguement on an LS1 site - go figure), handling should be the primary focus, and saying that, the car probably should have been built as close to 50/50 as possible.

Unless I'm missing something (it happens, lol)??

With the focus on moving as much weight as possible toward the center of the car, I imagine it will handle better than other cars with similar weight distribution.

I'm pretty sure this thread just made me dumber...especially reading anything this Latch character has posted. He sounds like an ignorant teenager who just got an Fbody.

This car is made to be light and fun, not a straight line monster. What is so hard to understand? I also think anyone comparing it to various superior used cars needs to be banned.

With the focus on moving as much weight as possible toward the center of the car, I imagine it will handle better than other cars with similar weight distribution.

Excellent point, sometimes weight distribution numbers can skewer the fact of where the weight is being carried.

Similar things happen when people compare dry weight numbers of 1000cc bikes to 600s. Yes they are not much different in dry weight anymore, but add fluids, and the fact that a 1000 carries a lot more weight higher in the frame, and you have a much different handling bike.

I'm pretty sure this thread just made me dumber...especially reading anything this Latch character has posted. He sounds like an ignorant teenager who just got an Fbody.

This car is made to be light and fun, not a straight line monster. What is so hard to understand? I also think anyone comparing it to various superior used cars needs to be banned.

No need to call people names sir. The real ignorance is insulting someone for posting their opinion on a discussion board. My opinion is a car needs POWER to be fun, not just lightweight. Therefore I feel this car will not be worth the money they're charging for it when there are better alternatives for the money, not only on the second hand market but new cars as well (for instance the new WRX).

There, now how hard is that to understand?

This thread turned to shit by page 3. Now it's less than shit. Congrats on a new low, select retards.

100 shot.. /thread.

Haha.. ugly car, gutless motor. What a waste. At least give the Subaru a turbo so it's fun from light to light.