Dynamometer Results & Comparisons - RPM 408 Results

Made 486hp/481ft-lbs corrected.

Race Proven Motorsports 408
Callies Compstar crank/rods
Wiseco Pistons
FAST 90/90
Trickflow 215cc cnc'd heads (unmilled)
QTP 1 3/4 in headers
QTP ORY, SLP LM
T-56
9in w/ 4.30 gears

Overall I'm happy with the torque throughout the RPM range, but I think it needs more air. Looks like it's starving up top. Thoughts on intake/exhaust are welcome, but the heads aren't changing anytime soon due to lack of funds. Looking for options to continue making power past 6k while limiting impact to low end torque (and keep that torque from dropping off so sharply after 4600 as well).


http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4357/johne408.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/140/johne408.png/)

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Yes,a ported fast 102/102 combo and a better merge on that y-pipe will net you over 500. I also see that you don't have a cut-out listed as a mod. Are you maf or speed density? What lid are you running, if you are?

Milling the heads to get 11:3.1CR will definately help torque & power.
Id sell the 215s and buy a set of 235's and have them milled.

Stock Maf, obviously not ideal.

Thinking about switching to a single plane as opposed to another FAST, would like to hear thoughts about that option as I'm not terribly well versed on them.

Lid was on it when I bought it a few years ago, not stock but not sure which manufacture.

Likely will go 3in duals, x-pipe dumped before the axle. The car was dyno'd with open headers to determine how much the exhaust setup was choking it up and didn't change either way so I'm sure the greatest restriction on that side is the headers.

So, thoughts on Victor Jr, 2inch headers to 3 inch dual x-pipe? Pro's, con's?

Milling the heads to get 11:3.1CR will definately help torque & power.
Id sell the 215s and buy a set of 235's and have them milled.

Down the line this will likely happen, but for now I'm looking at the best configuration of external parts. Primarily the pro's & con's of switching to a Vic Jr style setup.

Down the line this will likely happen, but for now I'm looking at the best configuration of external parts. Primarily the pro's & con's of switching to a Vic Jr style setup.

what cam is in that motor and what is your scr ? my 408 with a 244/248 on a 110 makes 53x rw with the cutout open through qtp 1 3/4 headers. that is with katech ported 243's and 85 mm maf/lid. with the stock maf/78mm lid i think it was 517 rw. intake is a slightly home ported 90/90,pretty much just got the bump/ridge out of the inside of it. the single plane will probably kill your motor up till well over 5k or so.

i think you need bigger heads or a different cam,or both.

Stock Maf, obviously not ideal.

Thinking about switching to a single plane as opposed to another FAST, would like to hear thoughts about that option as I'm not terribly well versed on them.

Lid was on it when I bought it a few years ago, not stock but not sure which manufacture.

Likely will go 3in duals, x-pipe dumped before the axle. The car was dyno'd with open headers to determine how much the exhaust setup was choking it up and didn't change either way so I'm sure the greatest restriction on that side is the headers.

So, thoughts on Victor Jr, 2inch headers to 3 inch dual x-pipe? Pro's, con's?

2 inch headers are overkill for that motor. 1 7/8 will be completely adequate.

2 inch headers are overkill for that motor. 1 7/8 will be completely adequate.

2 inch deff arent overkill if he were to ever spray it

He's got 481ft lbs of torque and you say the headers are too big:huh:

Just like when people thought 1 7/8 headers were too big for stock ls1's.

Hell, looking at the graph again, he has 420ft lbs at 3200 rpms! Stump puller!

2 inch deff arent overkill if he were to ever spray it

Did he ever say that was planned?

So an N/A 11:1 408 needs 2" headers?

I'll admit no problem if I am, but I don't think I am in this case.

Did he ever say that was planned?

So an N/A 11:1 408 needs 2" headers?

I'll admit no problem if I am, but I don't think I am in this case.

I'd say rather than overkill, more like room for continued growth. The potential for spray is there, although not necessarily very soon. I bought 1 3/4 in headers (for the stock cube motor) with the thought that 1 7/8 were "overkill" and look where that got me:bang:

Did he ever say that was planned?

So an N/A 11:1 408 needs 2" headers?

I'll admit no problem if I am, but I don't think I am in this case.

Not saying it will need 2" headers but it won't hurt the power as bad as you think it will.

are the cam specs anywhere in this thread?

Made 486hp/481ft-lbs corrected.

Race Proven Motorsports 408
Callies Compstar crank/rods
Wiseco Pistons
FAST 90/90
Trickflow 215cc cnc'd heads (unmilled)
QTP 1 3/4 in headers
QTP ORY, SLP LM
T-56
9in w/ 4.30 gears

Overall I'm happy with the torque throughout the RPM range, but I think it needs more air. Looks like it's starving up top. Thoughts on intake/exhaust are welcome, but the heads aren't changing anytime soon due to lack of funds. Looking for options to continue making power past 6k while limiting impact to low end torque (and keep that torque from dropping off so sharply after 4600 as well).


http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4357/johne408.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/140/johne408.png/)

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Man I have the same heads and intake on a 402ci LS2. I have an A3 th350 tranny and a 5000rpm stall. My car first time out at the track went 10.39@129mph. It's not the heads. I have work done to my heads and my intake is ported. This is a route you can look at. We opened up the bore size to 4" and dropped in bigger valves to accommodate the bigger cubes.

I see all these suggestions about what he needs to do and from what I can tell they are all incorrect. Why build a motor, slap it together with a bunch of parts that don't work together. Whatever heads and intake you have then you should get a cam speced for that application. If you change to a Victor intake then you need to change your cam to accommodate the change in air flow to the engine. Spec each part to work together instead of just throwing a bunch of crap together.
My build is a prime example of the way things need to happen. I had the TFS 215cnc heads, ported 90mm Fast and didn't want to sell them to buy the 225 cnc or the 235cnc heads. So I called Geoff@EPS to spec a cam to work with the parts I already have. As stated above I went a 10.39@129mph N/A right off the trailer and she still has a lot more left in her. My car is 3500+ with me in it so it's not like my car is light weight.
Save your money. Use the heads you have. Match them to the motor (open up to match bore size of the motor) and install bigger valves. Port your intake to help with the CFM needed by the engine. Call Geoff@EPS (or who ever you prefer) to spec you a custom cam to get all your parts to work together. Buy a good flowing exhaust system to help the engine breath. 1 7/8 or 2" stepped to 1 7/8 wouldn't hurt your build either.

Good luck man and hope this helps.

I see all these suggestions about what he needs to do and from what I can tell they are all incorrect. Why build a motor, slap it together with a bunch of parts that don't work together. Whatever heads and intake you have then you should get a cam speced for that application. If you change to a Victor intake then you need to change your cam to accommodate the change in air flow to the engine. Spec each part to work together instead of just throwing a bunch of crap together.
My build is a prime example of the way things need to happen. I had the TFS 215cnc heads, ported 90mm Fast and didn't want to sell them to buy the 225 cnc or the 235cnc heads. So I called Geoff@EPS to spec a cam to work with the parts I already have. As stated above I went a 10.39@129mph N/A right off the trailer and she still has a lot more left in her. My car is 3500+ with me in it so it's not like my car is light weight.
Save your money. Use the heads you have. Match them to the motor (open up to match bore size of the motor) and install bigger valves. Port your intake to help with the CFM needed by the engine. Call Geoff@EPS (or who ever you prefer) to spec you a custom cam to get all your parts to work together. Buy a good flowing exhaust system to help the engine breath. 1 7/8 or 2" stepped to 1 7/8 wouldn't hurt your build either.

Good luck man and hope this helps.


Its very easy to spend other people money isnt it? We talked about his build and thought it out. He had plans to change a few things next year and didnt have the money right now but with his motor blown up he wanted to get it fixed. I have built 408's that made over 560rwhp through a TR6060 trans, 9 inch and a 15 inch wheel tire combo with a fast 92 on it. I have also done a 402 that made over 510 with a ported ls6 head and a 90mm intake on it. He didnt have the money to change them right now but the plan was to change them in the future. So instead of having to change the came and a few other things down the road we chose to work around them. The car will run great at the track with the way the torque curve look. Its mostly a street car and it will be fun in the mean time.

Its very easy to spend other people money isnt it? We talked about his build and thought it out. He had plans to change a few things next year and didnt have the money right now but with his motor blown up he wanted to get it fixed. I have built 408's that made over 560rwhp through a TR6060 trans, 9 inch and a 15 inch wheel tire combo with a fast 92 on it. I have also done a 402 that made over 510 with a ported ls6 head and a 90mm intake on it. He didnt have the money to change them right now but the plan was to change them in the future. So instead of having to change the came and a few other things down the road we chose to work around them. The car will run great at the track with the way the torque curve look. Its mostly a street car and it will be fun in the mean time.

Where does it say for him to go spend a bunch of money? Are you butt hurt because the car had low dyno #'s through an M6? Please go back and read what I wrote then you will realize I was telling him not to listen to all the bullshit about what he needed when what he has is fine. Did he not buy a new cam for this build?

I see all these suggestions about what he needs to do and from what I can tell they are all incorrect. Why build a motor, slap it together with a bunch of parts that don't work together. Whatever heads and intake you have then you should get a cam speced for that application. If you change to a Victor intake then you need to change your cam to accommodate the change in air flow to the engine. Spec each part to work together instead of just throwing a bunch of crap together.
My build is a prime example of the way things need to happen. I had the TFS 215cnc heads, ported 90mm Fast and didn't want to sell them to buy the 225 cnc or the 235cnc heads. So I called Geoff@EPS to spec a cam to work with the parts I already have. As stated above I went a 10.39@129mph N/A right off the trailer and she still has a lot more left in her. My car is 3500+ with me in it so it's not like my car is light weight.
Save your money. Use the heads you have. Match them to the motor (open up to match bore size of the motor) and install bigger valves. Port your intake to help with the CFM needed by the engine. Call Geoff@EPS (or who ever you prefer) to spec you a custom cam to get all your parts to work together. Buy a good flowing exhaust system to help the engine breath. 1 7/8 or 2" stepped to 1 7/8 wouldn't hurt your build either.Good luck man and hope this helps.

Please go back and reread this part!! You took what I said pretty personal!! Maybe you should reconsider your argument..
Yes, I said about getting the work done to the heads and buying the exhaust but wouldn't this be cheaper than buying all that other crap that was mentioned?

It seems you have a good combo but there's still plenty left to do in bolt-ons.
Be sure to check FS section, I sold my 85 MAF for $30 shipped

Lid - if its not the biggest focker out there, sell it and get one (FTP 104mm)
Chris1313 ram air - Buy it
Stock MAF - Ditch it and opt for either 85mm (for cheap) or go Speed Density
Underdrive pulley - Buy one
Headers - Sell the 1 3/4, get ARH or TSP 1 7/8"

No need to ask me how I know just read this:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1402594-gen-i-ls1-393-stroker-498-502-5yrs-later.html

I don't recommend modifying those 215 heads, simply sell them for good money and buy the heads you need. If you could sell those for $1600-$1700 and pick up some used 235's for slightly more, that would be your best bet.

A quick search I found some TFS 235's posted for $1750
http://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-classifieds/1487798-trick-flow-235-heads-just-cleaned-checked.html

I don't recommend modifying those 215 heads, simply sell them for good money and buy the heads you need. If you could sell those for $1600-$1700 and pick up some used 235's for slightly more, that would be your best bet.

A quick search I found some TFS 235's posted for $1750
http://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-classifieds/1487798-trick-flow-235-heads-just-cleaned-checked.html

x2, That's what I did, sold my TFS 215's and with alittle more money went to bigger heads.
Too much money to rework the 215's.

I don't recommend modifying those 215 heads, simply sell them for good money and buy the heads you need. If you could sell those for $1600-$1700 and pick up some used 235's for slightly more, that would be your best bet.

A quick search I found some TFS 235's posted for $1750
http://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-classifieds/1487798-trick-flow-235-heads-just-cleaned-checked.html

What's wrong with opening up those heads. You told me the same thing a year ago and my car is running pretty damn hard.. Can you please explain in more detail why these heads aren't good for this build? Thanks

x2, That's what I did, sold my TFS 215's and with alittle more money went to bigger heads.
Too much money to rework the 215's.

What did your car run? I'm not saying this shouldn't happen or the bigger heads wouldn't make more power but it's making it seem like you can't lean on the cam to make power with the 215cnc heads..

What did your car run? I'm not saying this shouldn't happen or the bigger heads wouldn't make more power but it's making it seem like you can't lean on the cam to make power with the 215cnc heads..

I went to bigger cubes. 382 to 418.
I think that the TFS 215's are the best heads for a 346-383.
But once you get into your 402,408,416 the TFS 235's are the way to go.
You will spend more money by opening up the 215 to 235, than selling the 215and putting alittle more money in and getting the 235.
Instead of the TFS 235's, which are great heads, I went with Mast 245
Cathedral Port. Just to try a different product.
Old 382 went 10.90's @121

Guys I appreciate the thought process behind switching to a 235, however I am not pulling the heads off anytime soon.

I'm looking to compare and contrast the benefits of the following-

2 inch vs 1 7/8 headers
FAST 102 setup vs single plane Vic Jr style setup.

Cam is a 247/251 .623/.623 111 lsa

Again, I know there would be a nice improvement with the 235 on the top end, but let's pretend that isn't an option right now.

Thanks!

All I was saying is, when the OP decides to upgrades to bigger heads, it would cost less to sell his 215's and then buy some 235's. Than spending the money on opening the 215's up. Hell, he could probably sell his 215's and put acouple hundred dollars with that and get some 235's.

IMO, the 2" headers MIGHT gain you a couple hp at the very top of the powerband and would be good with a healthy shot of spray, but you might lose some low end in the process. With 1 7/8 I would bet you'd gain everywhere. The 1 7/8 are also going to be easier to install. I'm not sure what your k-member setup is, but the 2" would require a little more clearancing if you have a stock K.

IMO, the 2" headers MIGHT gain you a couple hp at the very top of the powerband and would be good with a healthy shot of spray, but you might lose some low end in the process. With 1 7/8 I would bet you'd gain everywhere. The 1 7/8 are also going to be easier to install. I'm not sure what your k-member setup is, but the 2" would require a little more clearancing if you have a stock K.

The impression I'm getting is that for my long term goals 2in is the way to go then. The last thing I want to do is buy 2 more sets of headers over the next couple of years.

Any thoughts on the intake setup?

99zMD,

I have a 11.14cr 418" motor with AFR 225's running a 245/260 hyd roller cam with a Super Vic/dominator TB and 1 3/4" stepped to 1 7/8" headers. Here is a link to the full set up and dyno sheet. Keep in mind, this is through a 4L80E / 12 bolt / 4.56's and a heavy 315/60/15 drag radial

http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1339416-469rwhp-unlocked-521rwhp-locked-na-no-n20.html

That should give you an idea of the power curve.


Why did I go with a Super Vic over a vic JR? I have both intakes. Here are some pics to look at: http://ls1tech.com/forums/10427455-post13.html

The Super vic seems to have better entry, bigger plenem, and the runners are a bit bigger.

I am confident that moving to a 2" stepped to 2 1/8" header with a 4" collector would gain power on my combo.

Question, who sells the 2 inch headers and from what website?

Question, who sells the 2 inch headers and from what website?



http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-external-engine/1486644-2-primary-headers.html

Question, who sells the 2 inch headers and from what website?

We use American Racing Headers on everything we build

Buy you a set of kooks headers with 3.5" collectors and I have a brand new stainless off road y pipe 3.5" x 3.5" x 3.5" I will make you a hell of a deal on . Just had a baby and I gotta sell it.

Buy you a set of kooks headers with 3.5" collectors and I have a brand new stainless off road y pipe 3.5" x 3.5" x 3.5" I will make you a hell of a deal on . Just had a baby and I gotta sell it.

Kooks 2" is what I have and 3.5 collector:judge: