Chevrolet Performance LSX Challenge Series and LSX Shootout - Sealed Crate Engine class for NMCA?

With the introduction of the Coyote Stock class on the NMRA side, I am wondering if there is any interest from NMCA drivers to have a class like this in the NMCA series?

Here are the Coyote Stock rules to use as an example:
http://nmradigital.com/rules/docs/Co...02012%20V6.pdf (http://nmradigital.com/rules/docs/Coyote%202012%20V6.pdf)

1 sealed engine, 1 sealed PCM, 1 tire, 1 weight

Having a sealed crate engine class could open several doors for the series, for manufacturers, and mostly for the racers. A person with an average budget only has a chance to be competitive in index racing anymore. Even the "entry level" heads up classes require deep pockets. The sealed crate engine class could be a great opportunity for people on a realistic budget to get the thrill of heads up racing and actually be competitive.

Obviously, I'm thinking the LS-platform would be the sealed engine of choice for GM.

What do you all think?

Derek

I think it would be neat, If the cost of the engine/ecu could be kept reasonable, it will really put all the weight on the driver/suspension tuning

only problem I see is not too many people have the money to buy a crate engine, but it sure would be fun...people would be running crazy gears and real tricks instead of adding power, like the old days

I think it is a great class to add to the program. This will make people become creative and use some old school ideas. I would be interested if it fits the budget.

only problem I see is not too many people have the money to buy a crate engine, but it sure would be fun...people would be running crazy gears and real tricks instead of adding power, like the old days

I agree on costs, but if you looks at what even a competitive Factory Stock motor costs, the Coyote is about 1/3-1/2 the costs. I think it can really bring back a more affordable heads-up class...

A heads up class you think a stock crate engine you can't touch, cost to much? You think your gona run some $1100 heads, and a $300 cam with stock valvetrain in a heads up class?

The slowest headsup class I'm looking into, its alum rods, high rpms, and 2-4K into unported stock heads.

need more then 4 races to make it worth it

I think it's a great idea, but I cannot commit to it personally, at least at this point in time.

all i'm saying is i know a lot of guys get into ls because you can buy a $600 6.0 or $300 5.3 and go racin' I didnt say it cost too much. How much is a crate motor these days anyway? are we talking crate ls1 or crate ls3? I think its a cool idea.

I cant say shit, I have a set of almost $3000 cathedral port heads on mine....lol

all i'm saying is i know a lot of guys get into ls because you can buy a $600 6.0 or $300 5.3 and go racin' I didnt say it cost too much. How much is a crate motor these days anyway? are we talking crate ls1 or crate ls3? I think its a cool idea.

I cant say shit, I have a set of almost $3000 cathedral port heads on mine....lol

This, 150%. People get into LS swaps becuase they are inexpensive and a STRONG starting point to get faster and faster.

need more then 4 races to make it worth it

If they did it, I'm sure it'd be for the full 7 race series like the Coyote Stock one is...

Just thought I'd mention it here since it'd be likely to get factory support / backing if they used late model engines.

Derek

If they did it, I'm sure it'd be for the full 7 race series like the Coyote Stock one is...

Just thought I'd mention it here since it'd be likely to get factory support / backing if they used late model engines.

Derek
So you are talking about an NMCA class then, interesting concept for sure!

Yep, a possible NMCA class.

I'd think there are some "interested" individuals that could get behind this class based on what the Coyote Stock class in the NMRA, scheduled to start competition in 2012, should generate on competition and interest.

Derek

Junkyard 5.3 class, now that would be pretty cheap lol!!!

Hey Derek I've been too busy to chime in, but I think it's potentially a pretty cool idea.

Take for example the crate LS3, it's available for $6500-7000:
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=gm+performance+parts+crate+ls3&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=327881585688747555&sa=X&ei=IUTyTujNHcryggeD7p2eAg&ved=0CGAQ8wIwAw

That's a fraction of what a competitive NMCA Mean Street engine would cost.

I think an LS3 class, on a 28x10.5 slick, @ 3200 raceweight, using C10 for fuel (pulled from the Coyote 5.0 rules), would be a mid 10 second class by the end of the season.

To continue, I think this addresses the desire for a slow class. I think some of the other convos like the one by Studderin on another site are cool, but ultimately the only way you can configure a class that allows NA, turbos, superchargers, nitrous etc., is by having a very detailed and intricate set of rules, or to just create an index class.

I'll be honest, I think this idea is very good, and clever. As long as the crate engines are reasonably priced I think it could work. Derek if you want to jaw about this at all email me at john@motorsports-media.com and I can give you my cell number.

I think that the crate motor LS3 with the ASA cam would be a wicked choice. It would make those Coyote Mustangs look tame!

Somehow every time my buddies and I get together to drink beers a class like this comes up an we would love to do it.
Plus it would be a great class to watch as ever race would be door to door.

Giz' idea is even cooler, cammed LS3 crate engine.

Giz' idea is even cooler, cammed LS3 crate engine.

GM already offers this crate motor. All they have to do is change a few bolts!

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/EngineShowcase/index.jsp?engId=LS376525&engine=LS%20376/525&sku=19259233&engCat=ls

GM already offers this crate motor. All they have to do is change a few bolts!

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/EngineShowcase/index.jsp?engId=LS376525&engine=LS%20376/525&sku=19259233&engCat=ls

It will make even more than 525 hp with headers and a race tune.
10's for sure, but you better stay out of the 9's for as long as you can.

Keep the weight around 3400 to 3500 lbs, so more people can play.

Considering the Coyote class is likely looking at mid to upper 10s, I'd think the class would aim for that area to keep the crossover angle as well as keeping as level a playing field as possible. Otherwise adding weight would become a necessity.

Derek

This going anywhere Derek? Thanks for putting it out there.

Any updates on this idea.

I think the Coyote class cars probably hit high 10's this past weekend, anyone got a results link?

10.90 for the winner...cannot find the qualifying

Would think that is a baddass "affordable class" Am I wrong? Or the some crazy modern stockers?

Junkyard 5.3 class, now that would be pretty cheap lol!!!

I was thinking of the same thing, even before finding this thread. I would bring my truck out for that for sure

Yeah sounds like like they had two cars for the first race, one was going 10.9 other was going 11.1.

I think this could be a pretty neat concept for the LSx guys.

i think this is a great idea as long as it stays closer to the cheaper side. This would give some of the people with less money a chance to race heads up. I know heads up racing is not cheap and can get expensive real quick so it would need some carefully picked rules.

i think this is a great idea as long as it stays closer to the cheaper side. This would give some of the people with less money a chance to race heads up. I know heads up racing is not cheap and can get expensive real quick so it would need some carefully picked rules.

"Stock shortblock Shoot out" ??? LOL

Would be a neat idea. Their does seem to be alot of hype around the "stock shortblock" records etc.

junkyard sealed motor shootout, I love it. haha

hell make it a power adder class, no internal engine mods, and must have SFI engine diaper LOL

The E-Rod LS 376/525 engine is perfect for this type of class. GMPP adds sealer caps to the bolts and packages the engine with a controls kit then you copy rules similar to Coyote Stock. Weight is 3200 lbs, keep it either Tremec manual transmissions with 10.5" disc and diaphragm clutch or TH350 w/transbrake only. No larger than a 28x10.5 slick. Any GM car you want from '55 to current. All stock glass, stock dash, fiberglass hood only. Pretty simple.

Looks like dealer pricing starts around $7,000. If we could get the "Racer Price" to $6,000-ish with the controls package how many would be interested in a class like this?

Now.....who do we have to contact at GMPP to make this happen?

The E-Rod LS 376/525 engine is perfect for this type of class. GMPP adds sealer caps to the bolts and packages the engine with a controls kit then you copy rules similar to Coyote Stock. Weight is 3200 lbs, keep it either Tremec manual transmissions with 10.5" disc and diaphragm clutch or TH350 w/transbrake only. No larger than a 28x10.5 slick. Any GM car you want from '55 to current. All stock glass, stock dash, fiberglass hood only. Pretty simple.

Looks like dealer pricing starts around $7,000. If we could get the "Racer Price" to $6,000-ish with the controls package how many would be interested in a class like this?

Now.....who do we have to contact at GMPP to make this happen?

Pretty good set of rules and simple. Stock glass and dash idk on that. As long as its 3200 raceweight Id be cool with it. Keep it N/A and you have a decent heads up class thats have ass affordable.

I started a thread concerning this potential class on lsxracers.com and received this reply from Jeff Conley:

I will talk to all the parties that this would have to go through to make this happen this weekend in Bradenton including GM Performance and NMCA.
Nice! Now.....being new to the LS performance market I need some help with this one.....what companies do you guys feel would be a good fit as a class sponsor? Scoggin-Dickey? Mast Motorsports? Texas Speed? GMPP themselves?

Good to see the interest in this thread. At this point, I'd say interest could get a nice shove just like the COPO Camaro; LET YOUR VOICES BE HEARD BY THE NMCA, GM AND THE SPONSORS! I know the Coyote Stock class only had a few people, but that's likely because some are (one or more of the following):
-waiting to see what the class is at performance wise before making the commitment
-still putting cars together
-didn't want to make the tow to Florida (a long drive from up North or even the middle part of the country compared to Georgia, Bowling Green, etc).

Still, I think this class idea could have some legs. Let's see what the discussion yields at Bradenton...

Derek

pretty interesting, what a coyote crate motor selling for with the "racers" price? Anyone know? Not that im considering switching, hell i couldnt run this class anyway with a mustang. Just curious.

10.90 for the winner...cannot find the qualifying

are these guys all motor? or power adder?

are these guys all motor? or power adder?

Pretty sure they are N/A Allowing power adders IMO just makes the class rules more in depth and budget starts to fly out the window.

Pretty sure they are N/A Allowing power adders IMO just makes the class rules more in depth and budget starts to fly out the window.

Now please dont take this wrong, or that im starting and argument,

But.. How? They all have the same limiting factors dont they? Stock motor is only gonna take so much. Weather its nitrous, blower or turbo...

Am i completely off base here? i suppose if you only had 20 cars i could see the need for only one simple class like this, but if the turn out was high enough... i dont know.. lol.

I guess see the budget remarks.

pretty interesting, what a coyote crate motor selling for with the "racers" price? Anyone know?
Typical price from an FRPP dealer is $7500 delivered to your door (shipping included). Another reason I wanted to shoot for $6000-ish on the GM deal.

are these guys all motor? or power adder?
All motor. No power adders. That was the main idea behind keeping the rules very simple with no weight breaks (and no bitching) for different power adders.

Now please dont take this wrong, or that im starting and argument,

But.. How? They all have the same limiting factors dont they? Stock motor is only gonna take so much. Weather its nitrous, blower or turbo...

Am i completely off base here? i suppose if you only had 20 cars i could see the need for only one simple class like this, but if the turn out was high enough... i dont know.. lol.

I guess see the budget remarks.
By keeping them N/A and with a spec tune the engines should last damn near forever. Breakage was another thing they wanted to avoid with this type of class. The costs in Real Street and Pure Street were horrendous and breakage has been a problem for a while. Bruce Hemminger has been on the NMRA's ass for two seasons to allow a Jerico or G-Force transmission because they were breaking two to three Tremecs at each race. In winter testing (before NMRA killed Real Street) Bruce broke four transmissions in a single day. So, by keeping the power at stock levels with no power adders the drivetrain parts should live as long as the engine. This will also make for much closer racing too. These types of rules take the emphasis off of the biggest bank account and put it onto the driver and chassis adjustments.

The initial cost of the engine is, of course, the main obstacle for most people. However, consider the costs involved with any other heads up engine program and it is a bargain. Consider it a "one-time expense" along with a good transmission. After that....you're into maintenance costs. Should be pretty easy on tires and clutch discs too.

right on. lol. works for me, was just wondering :)

Anybody have news about this from Bradenton?

Dr. Jamie Meyer has been made aware of the interest in a class :D

Back from the dead..........any news on getting this class on the books?

I sent an email through LinkedIn to Dr. Jamie Meyer yesterday concerning this class. He replied last night and it sounded as if he knew absolutely nothing about this idea. I pitched it to him and included a link to this thread along with the other from lsxracers.com. Will wait to hear back from him and update this thread.

That's a little weird considering I know a few current NMCA racers that discussed the idea with him a while back. Might have a lot on his plate with the LSX Shootout, SEMA and such coming up quick.

Unfortunately........it is now October. I just don't want a repeat of Coyote Stock's opening race.