Cam suggestions with 11.5-1 cr 346 ??
01-07-2012, 08:24 PM
#1
Cam suggestions with 11.5-1 cr 346 ?? Help with my setup? I was just forced to sell my trickflow heads to pay for a lawyer and now I have to use some 243 heads now because Im on a budget.
I just picked up stock 243 heads with 40k miles on them with stock springs and rockers, they have the lightweight z06 valves in them
My shortblock is a TSP 347 with stock crank, eagle rods, arp 2000 bolts, diamond -2cc pistons
my car is a 98 camaro ss A4 with 3200 stall, I plan on going to 373 gears when I do the head and cam swap, and a bigger stall around 4000
I've been searching alot and I'm hearing mixed reviews about milling the 243 heads and using a .040 cometic gasket to get my compression around 11.5-11.7/1 cr?
How much power am I leaving on the table by leaving the heads stock and not milling them with a good cam setup, ?
I have -2cc pistons so I'm assuming i can go with a bigger than normal cam.?.
Im just looking for some advice and maybe some opinions on some peoples setups to get an idea of what to expect..
Do I want to daily drive on 11.5-1 cr? other than power what would be the big benefit?
I will be calling a few vendors monday and asking the same thing to them...
all help is appreciated
I just picked up stock 243 heads with 40k miles on them with stock springs and rockers, they have the lightweight z06 valves in them
My shortblock is a TSP 347 with stock crank, eagle rods, arp 2000 bolts, diamond -2cc pistons
my car is a 98 camaro ss A4 with 3200 stall, I plan on going to 373 gears when I do the head and cam swap, and a bigger stall around 4000
I've been searching alot and I'm hearing mixed reviews about milling the 243 heads and using a .040 cometic gasket to get my compression around 11.5-11.7/1 cr?
How much power am I leaving on the table by leaving the heads stock and not milling them with a good cam setup, ?
I have -2cc pistons so I'm assuming i can go with a bigger than normal cam.?.
Im just looking for some advice and maybe some opinions on some peoples setups to get an idea of what to expect..
Do I want to daily drive on 11.5-1 cr? other than power what would be the big benefit?
I will be calling a few vendors monday and asking the same thing to them...
all help is appreciated
01-07-2012, 10:16 PM
#2
If you want a cam that will have gains everywhere in the rev range then a 224/230 .590 lift is about the biggest you wanna go...
If you want peak horsepower, without consideration for low end torque (street car) then go big or go home lol...get something more in the high 230s for duration, even into the low 240s if you are crazy...im sure 11.5 CR will eat a big cam like that up with no problems
If you want peak horsepower, without consideration for low end torque (street car) then go big or go home lol...get something more in the high 230s for duration, even into the low 240s if you are crazy...im sure 11.5 CR will eat a big cam like that up with no problems
01-08-2012, 12:22 AM
#5
custom cam is the way to go, but off the shelf will give you what your looking for...use that cam i listed as the point where you start to give up bottom end...my cam (comp 224/230) snarls all the way up to 6800 rpm, it will break tires on the down shift from 4th to 3rd thats for sure
01-08-2012, 10:23 PM
#7
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2 to 3% is a good guess for each full point of compression. In my 6.0 a 230/242 on 110 makes 375tq at 3000rpm. Makes a peak of 475/435. Not a bit soggy down low
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01-08-2012, 10:52 PM
#9
im on my phone its hard to type, give me an example of what power ill be leaving on the table.?
lets say im making 400hp on 10.5:1 cr so on 11.5:1 ill be making 412? thats it?
So it comes down to does $100 for milling worth it for the 12 extra hp? or does it mean something else..
what else is higher compression good for other than added power
lets say im making 400hp on 10.5:1 cr so on 11.5:1 ill be making 412? thats it?
So it comes down to does $100 for milling worth it for the 12 extra hp? or does it mean something else..
what else is higher compression good for other than added power
01-09-2012, 12:59 AM
#11
I understand. I guess I just wanted an example of hp lost between running 11.5 vs 10.5 cr with the same cam..
Let's say an MS3 cam that gives me 400 hp at 10.5:1 cr
And 11.5:1 cr will make that same cam 412 hp? Which is 3% increase
And the guy above says 15% which would mean 460hp
Let's say an MS3 cam that gives me 400 hp at 10.5:1 cr
And 11.5:1 cr will make that same cam 412 hp? Which is 3% increase
And the guy above says 15% which would mean 460hp
01-09-2012, 02:03 AM
#12
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Unluckily it's not that simple.
The compression ratio you choose will change the specs of the optimal cam.
A cam optimized for 10.5 installed in an 11.5 engine will cause issues in the 11.5 and vice versa...
Trying to put a percentage on it is arm-chair quarterbacking. If you do your homework correctly a compression change combined with the correct camshaft should get you far more than 3% but probably not 15% (that would be NICE however!)
Optimising quench with the thinner HG will never loose power. Better quench could be worth 1-3% by itself as it tends to reduce burn time which reduces detonation tendancies. This trick allows the the use of higher compression.
The total combo is what is important. It all works together...
Even I who understand this stuff pretty well am planning on paying PatG to spec out a cam for me. I expect the money spent will be the cheapest HP purchase of my entire build. Getting his opinion is one of the more important first tasks IMO.
PM the sponsors, see what they say, they have a vested interest in keeping their customers happy as unhappy ones invariably create nasty threads.
If I was in your shoes I'd probably have the heads milled and go with the thinner gasket. I'd probably shoot for 11.0-11.3 comp ratio. I'd hand blend the ports and the bowls.
CC the heads to verify they haven't been cut already before doing any work or ordering parts...
The compression ratio you choose will change the specs of the optimal cam.
A cam optimized for 10.5 installed in an 11.5 engine will cause issues in the 11.5 and vice versa...
Trying to put a percentage on it is arm-chair quarterbacking. If you do your homework correctly a compression change combined with the correct camshaft should get you far more than 3% but probably not 15% (that would be NICE however!)
Optimising quench with the thinner HG will never loose power. Better quench could be worth 1-3% by itself as it tends to reduce burn time which reduces detonation tendancies. This trick allows the the use of higher compression.
The total combo is what is important. It all works together...
Even I who understand this stuff pretty well am planning on paying PatG to spec out a cam for me. I expect the money spent will be the cheapest HP purchase of my entire build. Getting his opinion is one of the more important first tasks IMO.
PM the sponsors, see what they say, they have a vested interest in keeping their customers happy as unhappy ones invariably create nasty threads.
If I was in your shoes I'd probably have the heads milled and go with the thinner gasket. I'd probably shoot for 11.0-11.3 comp ratio. I'd hand blend the ports and the bowls.
CC the heads to verify they haven't been cut already before doing any work or ordering parts...
01-09-2012, 02:15 AM
#13
Unluckily it's not that simple.
The compression ratio you choose will change the specs of the optimal cam.
A cam optimized for 10.5 installed in an 11.5 engine will cause issues in the 11.5 and vice versa...
Trying to put a percentage on it is arm-chair quarterbacking. If you do your homework correctly a compression change combined with the correct camshaft should get you far more than 3% but probably not 15% (that would be NICE however!)
Optimising quench with the thinner HG will never loose power. Better quench could be worth 1-3% by itself as it tends to reduce burn time which reduces detonation tendancies. This trick allows the the use of higher compression.
The total combo is what is important. It all works together...
Even I who understand this stuff pretty well am planning on paying PatG to spec out a cam for me. I expect the money spent will be the cheapest HP purchase of my entire build. Getting his opinion is one of the more important first tasks IMO.
PM the sponsors, see what they say, they have a vested interest in keeping their customers happy as unhappy ones invariably create nasty threads.
If I was in your shoes I'd probably have the heads milled and go with the thinner gasket. I'd probably shoot for 11.0-11.3 comp ratio. I'd hand blend the ports and the bowls.
CC the heads to verify they haven't been cut already before doing any work or ordering parts...
The compression ratio you choose will change the specs of the optimal cam.
A cam optimized for 10.5 installed in an 11.5 engine will cause issues in the 11.5 and vice versa...
Trying to put a percentage on it is arm-chair quarterbacking. If you do your homework correctly a compression change combined with the correct camshaft should get you far more than 3% but probably not 15% (that would be NICE however!)
Optimising quench with the thinner HG will never loose power. Better quench could be worth 1-3% by itself as it tends to reduce burn time which reduces detonation tendancies. This trick allows the the use of higher compression.
The total combo is what is important. It all works together...
Even I who understand this stuff pretty well am planning on paying PatG to spec out a cam for me. I expect the money spent will be the cheapest HP purchase of my entire build. Getting his opinion is one of the more important first tasks IMO.
PM the sponsors, see what they say, they have a vested interest in keeping their customers happy as unhappy ones invariably create nasty threads.
If I was in your shoes I'd probably have the heads milled and go with the thinner gasket. I'd probably shoot for 11.0-11.3 comp ratio. I'd hand blend the ports and the bowls.
CC the heads to verify they haven't been cut already before doing any work or ordering parts...
And im looking to mill .030 and run a .040 gasket and Ill be around 11.5-11.7 and can run on 93 with no knocking and with a good quench.
that's most likely what ill do.
01-09-2012, 09:40 AM
#14
Since gasoline has gotten worse with the introduction of ethanol, we have found from dyno tuning hundreds of cars that they are not very happy above 11.0:1 SCR and 91-93 octane. Now we have to run the A/F ratio around 12.4:1 as opposed to 12.8:1 to make best power but most cathedral port heads like around 26-28 degrees of timing to make peak cylinder pressure at 13 degrees after TDC (the best place to make power). If you run too much compression and you have to back your ignition timing down to 22-24 degrees, you'll actually make LESS power with more compression. See it happen all the time.
Your best bet IMO, is to mill the heads to 62cc & run a .040" gasket. With your 2cc dished pistons, you will be right around 11.0:1 SCR. Ideal for a pump gas E10 engine.
Your best bet IMO, is to mill the heads to 62cc & run a .040" gasket. With your 2cc dished pistons, you will be right around 11.0:1 SCR. Ideal for a pump gas E10 engine.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
01-09-2012, 09:54 AM
#15
Since gasoline has gotten worse with the introduction of ethanol, we have found from dyno tuning hundreds of cars that they are not very happy above 11.0:1 SCR and 91-93 octane. Now we have to run the A/F ratio around 12.4:1 as opposed to 12.8:1 to make best power but most cathedral port heads like around 26-28 degrees of timing to make peak cylinder pressure at 13 degrees after TDC (the best place to make power). If you run too much compression and you have to back your ignition timing down to 22-24 degrees, you'll actually make LESS power with more compression. See it happen all the time.
01-09-2012, 01:12 PM
#16
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I am sure chrs1313 pointed you to the TEA 243 stage 2.0. bad *** head forthe money. And just like pat said. anything North of 11.0.1 91 to 93 is pushing it with out a wideband and keepinga eye on the tune.
01-09-2012, 02:37 PM
#17
Since gasoline has gotten worse with the introduction of ethanol, we have found from dyno tuning hundreds of cars that they are not very happy above 11.0:1 SCR and 91-93 octane. Now we have to run the A/F ratio around 12.4:1 as opposed to 12.8:1 to make best power but most cathedral port heads like around 26-28 degrees of timing to make peak cylinder pressure at 13 degrees after TDC (the best place to make power). If you run too much compression and you have to back your ignition timing down to 22-24 degrees, you'll actually make LESS power with more compression. See it happen all the time.
Your best bet IMO, is to mill the heads to 62cc & run a .040" gasket. With your 2cc dished pistons, you will be right around 11.0:1 SCR. Ideal for a pump gas E10 engine.
Your best bet IMO, is to mill the heads to 62cc & run a .040" gasket. With your 2cc dished pistons, you will be right around 11.0:1 SCR. Ideal for a pump gas E10 engine.
01-09-2012, 03:24 PM
#18
Your valve reliefs reduce the chamber volume by 2cc and this needs to be accounted for in the compression calculation. I'm sure they are considered flat-tops, but they still lose 2cc of compression to the dish in the valve reliefs.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2018 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 Pat G tuned.
LS1,LS2,LS3,LS7,LT1 Custom Camshaft Specialist For custom camshaft help press here.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
01-09-2012, 03:53 PM
#20
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the true way to do it is cc the head after a cut to see how much the head is coming down in cc. I made the misstake of thinking my math would be good but once done it was more then i wanted lol so now i am a 56cc lol. and cc the head once its cut then get the cam.