LS1TECH Sponsor Feedback - VA Speed tune - Never again.

Sorry for the novel, but I think it's a good read, and may save someone a motor, or at least some money on a retune or expensive repairs.

So originally I had my car (2007 CTS-V) tuned at VA Speed by Shawn. I took the car up there one morning, and they said they were going to put it
up on the dyno when I got there. I told them I just put on the Kooks 1 7/8" headers, high flow cats, and Corsa cat back, and the PO
had installed a K&N CAI. I also mentioned taking it to a few HPDE or TT events per year.Unfortunately there was a C5 on there at the time.
I waited around the shop for an hour or so waiting to take a video of it on the dyno. They were having some issues with the C5 and told me that it would probably be better for me to go and come
back when they were done with it. They did take a video of one run with their iPhone and mailed it to me, which I'm grateful for.

I was tickled pink. They gave it 25 more hp than it came in with.

Then along came a post about VA Speed quality control issues, which in that post was another link, and eventually it was like a daisy chain of problems with one thing in common,
VA Speed. I replied to one of the posts about being concerned about my tune, and was contated by Ed Hutchins, most of you have probably heard of him. Ed inquired what car I had, and when I had
it tuned. I quickly shot him back an answer, and alas, he had already left VA Speed by then, so it wasn't his tune. Then he offered to check out the tune, for FREE. That's right, zero dollars to check it out,
of course there would be a charge for dyno time if need be, and I was well and prepard to pay for dyno time since there were several threads I have read on this forum and another popular one about bad tunes costing
expensive motors, and VA Speed not wanting to warranty work. Not unless you put out a post that caught the attention of a hundred people or more. Then, of course, they had no choice but
to try to fix the problem. To little to late, IMHO.

Ed plugged in the laptop and turned the key on the V. After about 5 minutes, he just muttered "Hmmph". I asked "Hmmph good or Hmmph bad." I knew the answer already, but still wanted to hear it. He just replied,
"Hmmph, what in the hell were they thinking."

As it's explained to me, the knock retard recovery rate is set from the factory at 0.05 (3k RPM and up). Typically it will be often triple to 0.15. That's the time the computer will take to put back in timing after a knock event.
If you go higher, the computer will put timing back in so fast, it will just knock again. I'm not a big fan of knock mainly because I don't have the money to buy another LS2. Shawn set my knock retard recovery rate
to 9.0. Yep, he increased it by 9,000%. So basically, if the motor would knock, it would add the timing back in so fast, it would just keep knocking. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure knock is bad on pretty much anything moving up
and dowin in the motor.

So I pulled up the original dyno chart I was handed when I left VA Speed, and Ed just shook his head, along with some other employees at a shop, which will remain unnamed unless they want to be mentioned.

The big concern was the AFR. It was way rich (>12.0:1 at times), and waved around a lot. Also the HP and TQ curves indicated knock events in the upper RPM range (annotated by the wavy lines from 4.5K+).

Here's the graph I scanned in:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q181/kreiskolbenmotor/VAspeeddyno.jpg


So I just told Ed to put it on the dyno and I'd just pay for a retune.

He did, and untouched, this is what it churned out:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q181/kreiskolbenmotor/2012-01-06_10-44-51_534.jpg


Look how lean it is from the hit to 4.5k rpm.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q181/kreiskolbenmotor/2012-01-06_10-56-15_520.jpg


Ed took a little while and this is the 2nd run's results:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q181/kreiskolbenmotor/2012-01-06_10-54-17_808.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q181/kreiskolbenmotor/2012-01-06_10-54-28_4.jpg

AFR's look much better:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q181/kreiskolbenmotor/2012-01-06_11-02-02_993.jpg


So Ed went ahead and tweaked it a little more. He said typically you want the AFR at 13:1, but since I am racing it once and a while, it's a little more rich
to be safe.

Look how smooth the HP and TQ curves are will hardly any wavyness. Also the AFR line is damn near unwavering:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q181/kreiskolbenmotor/EdDyno.jpg


I just felt that I needed to post this up for people thinking about going to VA Speed for a tune. I couldn't keep that tune in my car
with all the recent problems with QA that have popped up. The money I spent with Ed is more than worth the peace of mind.

A few afterthoughts as well. I had to take the car back up there to get the CEL shut off because they didn't shut off the cat monitoring
O2 sensors like they said they did. They also said my O2 sensors were acting slow. Well a little research shows that when you put headers
on a car, the O2 sensors don't get as hot, and therefore they respond slower. The ECM expects a fast response, and will set off a CEL if it isn't
fast enough. Shawn told me I needed to change my O2 sensors, but low and behold that didn't solve the problem. Changing the parameter to expect a slower response
will keep the CEL from coming on.

Ed also went out of his way to change the 1 to 4 skip shift, and he also adjusted when my fans come on so that the car runs cooler.

Honestly, I think VA Speed did an initial dyno, changed the fuel curve and knock recovery rate, ran the dyno again and then called me up. I'd like to believe that
they spent some time on it, but in actuality, it's more likely they just called it good enough, and sent it out the door.

Ed also requested I bring the car back to him after I ran some seafoam through the car to see if he can add some more timing. He's also going to keep it overnight
to check the cold start and cold driving. Something VA Speed never even inquired about.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I don't think I'll set foot in VA Speed ever again.

This thread will get deleted....watch..

What was the correction factor on the VA speed dyno? I see the new dyno is SAE Smoothing 5 which will get rid of a lot of the waves on the dyno graph. If the VA speed one isnt corrected the same you cant compare the two equally.

What was the correction factor on the VA speed dyno? I see the new dyno is SAE Smoothing 5 which will get rid of a lot of the waves on the dyno graph. If the VA speed one isnt corrected the same you cant compare the two equally.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q181/kreiskolbenmotor/VAspeeddyno2.jpg

wow, this won't last long

The very first dyno graph what does the very top left corner say?

The very first dyno graph what does the very top left corner say?

That's just a black bar that was put there by my scanner for some reason. You can see the edge of the sheet to the left.

Im not expert, but I always thought the smoothing was just to "smooth" out the dyno graph for a nicer visual look. It has nothing to do with how "smooth" the engine is revving through the power band. Smoothing 5 will show the smoothest HP/TQ lines.

Im not expert, but I always thought the smoothing was just to "smooth" out the dyno graph for a nicer visual look. It has nothing to do with how "smooth" the engine is revving through the power band. Smoothing 5 will show the smoothest HP/TQ lines.

Correct...if you leave smoothing on something like 1, the graph will be extremely jittery, and will usually end up over-reporting the numbers because it will pull the highest numbers from one of the random peaks instead of from a nice, smooth line that will show the true average of what's going on, not just the highest number from a random spike.

Sounds like a botched job cause the shop is too busy..classic story. I've heard lot of positive comments on VA speed though, but maybe they are 'victims' of their own success.

I'm glad someone took care of your car and solve the problem!

Also curious about the smoothing from the first tune. I don't know either shop, but I rarely smoothing over about 3 on the dynos I have worked on. I don't have my own dyno yet, so I usually just let the shop leave it on whatever setting they have and ask for uncorrected numbers. But smoothing can have a huge impact on how the graph looks.

Also curious about the smoothing from the first tune. I don't know either shop, but I rarely smoothing over about 3 on the dynos I have worked on. I don't have my own dyno yet, so I usually just let the shop leave it on whatever setting they have and ask for uncorrected numbers. But smoothing can have a huge impact on how the graph looks.



Why would you ask for uncorrected numbers? SAE Smoothing on 5 is the industry standard. People who do not use that are just trying to fudge the numbers.

Because honestly numbers don't matter much to me. Usually SAE just makes it higher here in the south with 100 percent humidity and 90 degree weather. My main concern is the before and after when I rent dyno time. I don't need a program that artificially raises or lowers the numbers for that.

Most of my customers are more concerned with how it will do at the track anyway. The dyno for me is just a tool. I usually spend more time on the street or track where the car will spend most of its time.

Glad to hear you saved the engine before it was too late.

I have seen tunes from "pros" that look like they opened the main VE map, scattered a bunch of birdseed all over the keyboard and let pigeons peck away at the laptop for an hour or so, then loaded it up to some helpless/clueless customers car. So, you got off easy with just a PE hack, too much timing and turned off knock control. :nod:

Glad to hear you saved the engine before it was too late.

I have seen tunes from "pros" that look like they opened the main VE map, scattered a bunch of birdseed all over the keyboard and let pigeons peck away at the laptop for an hour or so, then loaded it up to some helpless/clueless customers car. So, you got off easy with just a PE hack, too much timing and turned off knock control. :nod:

lmao !!! serious sig material right there!!

Another classic quote I have heard:

"Looks like the tuner opened the tables and banged his head against the keyboard"

Interested to hear their side.

^^^ Me too!
This is what scares me about my new build!
I can very easily go out and spend THOUSANDS on a NEW Build, and in 1 day a So Called Tuner can fu(k up a "Wet Dream" by giving me a bad tune!

Very Curious to see the outcome of this. Possibly even a refund of this guys money and an Appology on this forum. That's the least they could do.
I mean honestly tho, A car enthusiats works very hard to enjoy the sport of cars' and for a reputable shop to just give him/her a shady tune is just plain BS. I don't care how busy you are, Take the time and do it right or don't do the tune at all! Period!

** OP, Thank You for sharing this with us!

^^^ Me too!
This is what scares me about my new build!
I can very easily go out and spend THOUSANDS on a NEW Build, and in 1 day a So Called Tuner can fu(k up a "Wet Dream" by giving me a bad tune!

Very Curious to see the outcome of this. Possibly even a refund of this guys money and an Appology on this forum. That's the least they could do.
I mean honestly tho, A car enthusiats works very hard to enjoy the sport of cars' and for a reputable shop to just give him/her a shady tune is just plain BS. I don't care how busy you are, Take the time and do it right or don't do the tune at all! Period!

** OP, Thank You for sharing this with us!

Anytime. Figure this could help some people out.

And honestly, I just don't think there really is a qualified tuner at VA Speed since Ed left. I don't see a lot of people coming from VA Speed that are superbly happy with their tune. And honestly, reading through several fairly recent threads on here and other websites, it seems like turning nuts and bolts has become a challenge. Motors are going up in smoke, cars are being returned not fully assembled, etc.


On another note, Ed had told me to run some Seafoam through the intake. The motor was knocking (audible) a little bit in the upper RPM ranges, which was limiting Ed to about 19 degrees of timing. So I ran some through the motor and brought it back to Ed. He ended up getting it to about 25 degrees of timing, and he was able to get about 10 more HP the second time around. Now there's no audible knock and an extremely low KR.

If you are reading any of this Ed, Bravo sir. I've got 3 more cars lined up for you now, possibly a 4th.

Yeah thats crazy man!
I'm glad you got in touch with a good tuner tho. If only i wasn't so far, I would have Ed tune mine. It sounds like he is very willing to help make things right, and obviously enjoys his job or he would not be doing so much to make sure it is spot on. Big Props to Ed, bc not many tuners out there give a damn about the tune, or customer. All they see is $$$.

-James

wow. Interesting.....

Are you the same guy in the vendor forum with the "rebuild something extra" thread?

Are you the same guy in the vendor forum with the "rebuild something extra" thread?

No, but that thread is one of the reasons I went to Ed to make my car right. There are several threads similar to that, and after some research and reading, I just can't trust VA Speed to touch my car.

thanks for posting this info , its good for others in the community to read about stuff like this , that's not fair if it gets deleted .

No, but that thread is one of the reasons I went to Ed to make my car right. There are several threads similar to that, and after some research and reading, I just can't trust VA Speed to touch my car.

Yes I was wondering because there have been a few to pop up recently.

Glad you got it worked out though :cheers:

OP, have you tried to contact VA Speed and see what they have said about your tune?

If they have done you wrong and you have 100% proof then you should be entitled to a refund of your money.

I am also a person who likes to hear both sides of a story. Somebody needs to send them a link to this because I would like to hear what they have to say.

Yeah thats crazy man!
I'm glad you got in touch with a good tuner tho. If only i wasn't so far, I would have Ed tune mine. It sounds like he is very willing to help make things right, and obviously enjoys his job or he would not be doing so much to make sure it is spot on. Big Props to Ed, bc not many tuners out there give a damn about the tune, or customer. All they see is $$$.

-James

James,
Don't want to hijack the OP's thread, and am very surprised that VA Speed would let something like that get out their door. Hate to hear stuff like that.
Since you are in Indy, Mike Norris moved his business there some time ago and he is a VERY competent tuner, so you should contact him if you need to get your tune optimized,,,,,hope this helps.

Jimbo

Hey Jimbo,
I understand where your going with that. It doesn't make any sense why such a high reputable shop would let that happen, but then again when things get hectic or busy... You never know!

And Yeah, I know mike norris well. He is a great tuner. I was planning on using him for mine already. I've had good luck with him in the past, but I was just refering to Ed b/c I like how he took that extra step to insure things were right. Thats an A+++ In my book. And I take it he can tune anything! ???
I was thinking of going with E85, and to my knowledge Mike does not tune for E85. But if I stay with 93 octane, I am def using Norris. He's a great guy! No complaints here. ;)
But thanks for the Heads up Jimbo!
:cheers:

-James

I think you should contact them about this.

OP, have you tried to contact VA Speed and see what they have said about your tune?

If they have done you wrong and you have 100% proof then you should be entitled to a refund of your money.

I am also a person who likes to hear both sides of a story. Somebody needs to send them a link to this because I would like to hear what they have to say.

I my self was wondering why no one VA Speed has chimed in, usually when someone of here start slinging mud the sponsor usually pops up pretty quickly to air their side of the story if they feel the poster is not telling the story truthfully or leaving out an important detail.

OP, have you tried to contact VA Speed and see what they have said about your tune?

If they have done you wrong and you have 100% proof then you should be entitled to a refund of your money.

I am also a person who likes to hear both sides of a story. Somebody needs to send them a link to this because I would like to hear what they have to say.

I haven't contacted them. Yet. I'm still contemplating on calling them, but I'm not sure it will do any good. I would venture to say that they know about it, but have no idea how to respond, or just don't care. I would like to hear from them though as to why I received such a crap "tune".

I my self was wondering why no one VA Speed has chimed in, usually when someone of here start slinging mud the sponsor usually pops up pretty quickly to air their side of the story if they feel the poster is not telling the story truthfully or leaving out an important detail.

I'm pretty surprised myself. Usually they chime in pretty fast, but this one they just remain eerily silent.

What really gets me though is that this thread has nearly 1000 views and not one single person has tried to help VA Speed.

I replied to one of the posts about being concerned about my tune, and was contated by Ed Hutchins, most of you have probably heard of him. Ed inquired what car I had, and when I had
it tuned.



Is he a sponsor on here?

Seems a little fishy to me that he used to work there and now he is contacting Va. Speed customers and "fixing" there work.

Just sayin.

Is he a sponsor on here?

Seems a little fishy to me that he used to work there and now he is contacting Va. Speed customers and "fixing" there work.

Just sayin.

I'm pretty sure Ed is a sponsor, he is also extremely well known and regarded as one of the best in the business by some.

Who knows maybe this was just a flux and something fell threw the cracks who knows, but its sure not making much of their case when then wont even come in here and acknowledge what happened or what the op's saying.

Is he a sponsor on here?

Seems a little fishy to me that he used to work there and now he is contacting Va. Speed customers and "fixing" there work.

Just sayin.

He didn't contact me on these forums. It was another set of forums. And the main reason he contacted me was to ask when I had it tuned, and if it had been tuned by him, that I would be fine.

Unfortunately that wasn't the case, and I got said garbage "tune".

Also, if you had met Ed in real life, he's a damn nice guy. He genuinely cares about his customers more than the almighty dollar, which is a rarity nowadays. His philosophy is customer satisfaction first.

Went did Shawn tune your car and why haven't you call him about this.

FYI Ed is a sponsor

http://ls1tech.com/forums/member.php?u=68998

You probalby should let them know..

It was in August. I haven't called yet because I was waiting for my car to be done. I've been working 12 hours a day/7 days a week. I just had time to pick the car up from Ed yesterday.

Went did Shawn tune your car and why haven't you call him about this.

It was in August. I haven't called yet because I was waiting for my car to be done. I've been working 12 hours a day/7 days a week. I just had time to pick the car up from Ed yesterday.

But yet you found time to start a "bash thread" and post replies :confused:

But yet you found time to start a "bash thread" and post replies :confused:

Lucky for me the forums aren't blocked at work. And can you blame me for starting one? I'll give him a call next week. We'll see how that goes.

Lucky for me the forums aren't blocked at work. And can you blame me for starting one? I'll give him a call next week. We'll see how that goes.

Yep...lucky for us all :eyes:

Look, call me old fashion. But if you pay for a service and feel you didnt get what you paid for, you approach that person/shop one on one to resolve the issue before the all too common chicken shit approach in shooting them in the back on the internet.

Good luck with call....

Yep...lucky for us all :eyes:

Look, call me old fashion. But if you pay for a service and feel you didnt get what you paid for, you approach that person/shop one on one to resolve the issue before the all too common chicken shit approach in shooting them in the back on the internet.

Good luck with call....

I'm sorry I somehow offended you with my post and by no means am I chicken shit. Just because I laid out what happened with pictures etc. for other people to see, doesn't make me chicken shit. This is merely a fact-only story on my experience with VA Speed. I didn't put in any opinions, just stated everything that happened.

I've read your build thread, and that was one of the reasons I went to VA Speed in the first place. I just don't have that kind of coin to throw at a car right now.

Honestly, the reason I went to Ed was because there are several posts etc., some pages and pages long, that go into quality issues with VA Speed work. And on top of quality issues, they weren't standing behind there work, trying to play it off on mechanical failure or the owner's fault when it was clearly a mistake on their part. I took it to VA Speed to make my car better, expecting a diamond, if you will. Instead I got a polished turd in the shape of a diamond. My being no diamond, or turd, expert I thought they had done me right.

Unfortunately for me, I had the diamon expert check it out, and he revealed all aspects of a turd.

Had I been messing around on the street or on a track or HPDE and blown my motor up due to knock because the tables were so out of whack, do you think VA Speed would have picked up the bill for another motor?

I'll leave that question open-ended. Bare minimum is that my tune was absolute trash and not even close to what it should have been. No tuner should ever let a car go with that kind of error. That kind of mistake is fatal.

Yep...lucky for us all :eyes:

Look, call me old fashion. But if you pay for a service and feel you didnt get what you paid for, you approach that person/shop one on one to resolve the issue before the all too common chicken shit approach in shooting them in the back on the internet.

Good luck with call....

:eyes: we all know your going to stand up for them.

I've seen your build threads and its amazing, props. But I think this happens more often than people would care to know where a "cash cow" of a customer comes in. Shop knows they got money to burn and they turn out top notch stuff so it can get posted all over the internet.

Then you get average guys that get worked on in between big money builds and such. I'm not knocking VA Speed. I have seen some peoples threads and they have done some really impressive stuff.

However, just because you turn out 100 awesome builds doesn't mean you get a free pass to just totally dick up 1 out of 100. If its the tuners fault, VA Speed still should stand behind that.

The owner said when he showed up for his appointment that they were tuning something else that was having issues. I think its highly possible that it could have just been thrown on there and not given the proper amount of time so that they would not have to push back another person as well.

Either way nothing going to get resolved with out getting in touch with them. My guess from the other threads I've seen, it will just get blamed on the owner (and VA Speed is not the only shop I've seen do this ;))

What I personally have a problem with is YOU coming in here calling him a chicken shit for starting a thread about what happened to him. Wouldn't you want to know if a shop is heading down hill or something of that nature? Whats chickenshit about him letting us know about the inferior work he feels he received and leaving it in public form so that VA Speed (if they choose) can come on here and voice their own opinions as well.

:eyes: we all know your going to stand up for them.

I've seen your build threads and its amazing, props. But I think this happens more often than people would care to know where a "cash cow" of a customer comes in. Shop knows they got money to burn and they turn out top notch stuff so it can get posted all over the internet.

Then you get average guys that get worked on in between big money builds and such. I'm not knocking VA Speed. I have seen some peoples threads and they have done some really impressive stuff.

However, just because you turn out 100 awesome builds doesn't mean you get a free pass to just totally dick up 1 out of 100. If its the tuners fault, VA Speed still should stand behind that.

The owner said when he showed up for his appointment that they were tuning something else that was having issues. I think its highly possible that it could have just been thrown on there and not given the proper amount of time so that they would not have to push back another person as well.

Either way nothing going to get resolved with out getting in touch with them. My guess from the other threads I've seen, it will just get blamed on the owner (and VA Speed is not the only shop I've seen do this ;))


First off, thank-you for the props :cheers: . Second, I'm not here to offend anyone.

Do I have a vested and biased interest that favor them, yes. Sticking up for? No. Re-read my post. I dont care what or who the vendor is....this doesnt help anyone except for a few band-wagon haters looking for a reason to climp on and bump post count.

My point (and only point) is that OP should have addressed the issue DIRECTLY with them FIRST not after a thread like this. Information is only one-sided. Shawn doesnt have the time nor should he have to get into pissin' contest over the internet on what did or didnt happen. If they are truly responsible, I'm sure it'll be handled and issue is closed. If not and OP is not satisfied...go nuts...post up til your fingers bleed. At least there is the opportunity to see both sides of the issue.

What I personally have a problem with is YOU coming in here calling him a chicken shit for starting a thread about what happened to him. Wouldn't you want to know if a shop is heading down hill or something of that nature? Whats chickenshit about him letting us know about the inferior work he feels he received and leaving it in public form so that VA Speed (if they choose) can come on here and voice their own opinions as well.

Not sure why you're taking it personally....cant help that I guess. It wasnt meant to offend. For conversation purposes....how can you confirm any of it is true? How can you make an assumption of the demise of an organization from one thread from someone that's been on this site for 2 months? I prefer to do my homework before reading into one-sided bullshit (is that better?) on the internet. Put the kool-aid down and believe me when I say, there is a whole hell of a lot going on here than you will ever know....

First off, thank-you for the props :cheers: . Second, I'm not here to offend anyone.

Do I have a vested and biased interest that favor them, yes. Sticking up for? No. Re-read my post. I dont care what or who the vendor is....this doesnt help anyone except for a few band-wagon haters looking for a reason to climp on and bump post count.


My point (and only point) is that OP should have addressed the issue DIRECTLY with them FIRST not after a thread like this. Information is only one-sided. Shawn doesnt have the time nor should he have to get into pissin' contest over the internet on what did or didnt happen. If they are truly responsible, I'm sure it'll be handled and issue is closed. If not and OP is not satisfied...go nuts...post up til your fingers bleed. At least there is the opportunity to see both sides of the issue.


Not sure why you're taking it personally....cant help that I guess. It wasnt meant to offend. For conversation purposes....how can you confirm any of it is true? How can you make an assumption of the demise of an organization from one thread from someone that's been on this site for 2 months? I prefer to do my homework before reading into one-sided bullshit (is that better?) on the internet. Put the kool-aid down and believe me when I say, there is a whole hell of a lot going on here than you will ever know....

Ok,

First.

I KNOW that threads like these always start out one sided likes these. Remeber the CAM thread along time ago about the wrecked corvette? Yes the employee took the car and totaled it. But, that thing made it to like page 50 before the truth came out and Creech told us what was offered to the lady to fix it. Up to that point we thought she was basically told to "piss off" and she had to go through her insurance to get anything done.

Second.

I guess I see the need for threads like this from a point of view that, that no matter what happened in this particular instant, that people do get bad tunes, people do have parts they paid for left off their cars, ect, ect. Threads like these remind us to be aware of the fact that the aftermarket speed and tuner world are full of people that are looking to make a quick buck off this passion that we share.

Do I feel VA Speed is in the business of ripping people off? No I really don't. Their track record points to countless accomplishments and numerous projects on this site alone that will probably leave most people drooling (yours in particular for me ;)) and they also have a top notch machining facility.

Like I said, maybe this was just something that slipped through their fingers, okay, lesson learned and now they will be more mindful of what they let leave their shop considered finished. And they know that people will be checking after them and to make sure their work is as top notch as it always has been. Thanks to public forums like these it pushes and drives not just constant competition but good business practices as well.

After all, VA Speed has a reputation, and this industry is a buyers market. How many premium engine builders are their? Off the top of my head there are about 5 or 6 IMO. You can pick and choose, and companies like these have to build a strong image from the jobs they pump out as well as strong performance from the dyno number/E.T.'s their shop cars turn out because marketing alone will not cut it. How many shops, even big shops, have we seen disappear locally as well as on this site due to lack of customers due to a harsh economy if nothing else? Something had to have made these people decide on another shop right?

Three.

Perhaps I should have not attacked you personally, I apolgize for that. I also, did recognize that this was a newer memember and approached this thread with a grain of salt. I also was impressed by the pictures he provided and it seemed he had some evidence backing his claim. We have yet to hear from VA Speed or even Ed. If after the OP talks with VA Speed and they get something worked out, he can always delete this thread. Also I didn't specifically mean that VA Speeds was going down hill. I meant that repeated threads showing bad work can sometimes indicate that perhaps a shops lead tech has left and they relied on him to much, or they are understaffed as a whole, or even that maybe they just have burned out and have had some mistakes happen because their heart is not in it anymore.

Threads like these help us consumers when a shop IS TRULY not delivering for what has been paid for. Again, I did not mean VA Speed specifically when I wrote that. Hope that helps anyone reading this :chug:.

I also could not agree with you more about most of these threads being some punk crying about something and then the shop comes in and post their side and it ends up being someone trying to get something for nothing. I work at a body shop, I know all about people trying to screw over shops. Its often unfair and you see shops doing more than they ever should just to help maintain their good image because someone bashed them all over the internet unfairly. If this is the case, shame on you OP. I also agreed with you that nothing is going to get solved without him contacting VA Speed about the problem. We will just have to wait and see. :cheers:

Scott

Put a msd6ls box on it and tune it yourself with a carb. It isn't that hard.

Put a msd6ls box on it and tune it yourself with a carb. It isn't that hard.

Sure, why the hell not. I'll put in manual window cranks, change the ignition to points, go to manual steering, develop an LS2 underhead valve block, and anything else archaic that I can think of.

I didn't start this post for it to be a VA Speed vs. Ed thing nor did I do it to bash a shop. I know VA Speed has put out several cars that have been top notch. It's only an account of my PERSONAL experience with two entirely different tuners.

I am going to call VA Speed on Monday and talk to Shawn and ask for a refund. Where it goes it entirely up to them though.

I understand post count and membership length here is held to be the epitome of status-ship. Sorry I didn't join earlier and haven't been a post whore. I've been browsing these forums for around a year and a half or so just for information basically.

And lastly. Can't we all just hug and talk cars? After all, there isn't one of us here that doesn't have oil in our veins and drink gasoline for fun.

Sure, why the hell not. I'll put in manual window cranks, change the ignition to points, go to manual steering, develop an LS2 underhead valve block, and anything else archaic that I can think of.

I didn't start this post for it to be a VA Speed vs. Ed thing nor did I do it to bash a shop. I know VA Speed has put out several cars that have been top notch. It's only an account of my PERSONAL experience with two entirely different tuners.

I am going to call VA Speed on Monday and talk to Shawn and ask for a refund. Where it goes it entirely up to them though.

I understand post count and membership length here is held to be the epitome of status-ship. Sorry I didn't join earlier and haven't been a post whore. I've been browsing these forums for around a year and a half or so just for information basically.

And lastly. Can't we all just hug and talk cars? After all, there isn't one of us here that doesn't have oil in our veins and drink gasoline for fun.

Look do not take offense. I went the same route you are going through. Each time I added something I had to get it tuned. I got completely tired of it. The car started to come around when I went with the msd6ls box. I understand how you feel that's all.

Look do not take offense. I went the same route you are going through. Each time I added something I had to get it tuned. I got completely tired of it. The car started to come around when I went with the msd6ls box. I understand how you feel that's all.

I understand where you're going but I'm not going to rip the fuel injection off the car because I don't want to retune it. I don't mind at all having it tuned. It's part of the game. You add something or change something, you have to adapt to it.

The car runs great. Ed did an awesome job on the retune. I'm sure Ed will do an awesome job when I have him retune it when I put a cam in it.3

Even if you put a carb on it, it's still got to be retuned if you make changes to the motor.

Perhaps I should have not attacked you personally, I apolgize for that. I also, did recognize that this was a newer memember and approached this thread with a grain of salt. I also was impressed by the pictures he provided and it seemed he had some evidence backing his claim. We have yet to hear from VA Speed or even Ed. If after the OP talks with VA Speed and they get something worked out, he can always delete this thread. Also I didn't specifically mean that VA Speeds was going down hill. I meant that repeated threads showing bad work can sometimes indicate that perhaps a shops lead tech has left and they relied on him to much, or they are understaffed as a whole, or even that maybe they just have burned out and have had some mistakes happen because their heart is not in it anymore.

Threads like these help us consumers when a shop IS TRULY not delivering for what has been paid for. Again, I did not mean VA Speed specifically when I wrote that. Hope that helps anyone reading this :chug:.

I also could not agree with you more about most of these threads being some punk crying about something and then the shop comes in and post their side and it ends up being someone trying to get something for nothing. I work at a body shop, I know all about people trying to screw over shops. Its often unfair and you see shops doing more than they ever should just to help maintain their good image because someone bashed them all over the internet unfairly. If this is the case, shame on you OP. I also agreed with you that nothing is going to get solved without him contacting VA Speed about the problem. We will just have to wait and see. :cheers:

Scott

I think we both agree that a little due process would go a long way. Good talk Scott.....:chug:

I didn't start this post for it to be a VA Speed vs. Ed thing nor did I do it to bash a shop. I know VA Speed has put out several cars that have been top notch. It's only an account of my PERSONAL experience with two entirely different tuners.

I am going to call VA Speed on Monday and talk to Shawn and ask for a refund. Where it goes it entirely up to them though.

I understand post count and membership length here is held to be the epitome of status-ship. Sorry I didn't join earlier and haven't been a post whore. I've been browsing these forums for around a year and a half or so just for information basically.

The situation is unfortunate on a handful of levels but as I mentioned before, good luck. :)

And lastly. Can't we all just hug and talk cars? After all, there isn't one of us here that doesn't have oil in our veins and drink gasoline for fun.

By all means...fire away. Any further plans for the V?

I also could not agree with you more about most of these threads being some punk crying about something and then the shop comes in and post their side and it ends up being someone trying to get something for nothing. I work at a body shop, I know all about people trying to screw over shops. Its often unfair and you see shops doing more than they ever should just to help maintain their good image because someone bashed them all over the internet unfairly. If this is the case, shame on you OP. I also agreed with you that nothing is going to get solved without him contacting VA Speed about the problem. We will just have to wait and see. :cheers:

Scott

We have seen people try to blackmail us, threatening to bash us publicly, because a part that they bought themselves and insisted that we use let go and they wanted their money back or another part installed for free. Also had people complain about a tune only to find out they added a couple new parts and the tune got thrown off. Ya just never know the whole story. Not saying that is the instance with this particular scenario, but the question I have to the OP is if you took it back to VA Speed to allow them to fix it?

We have seen people try to blackmail us, threatening to bash us publicly, because a part that they bought themselves and insisted that we use let go and they wanted their money back or another part installed for free. Also had people complain about a tune only to find out they added a couple new parts and the tune got thrown off. Ya just never know the whole story. Not saying that is the instance with this particular scenario, but the question I have to the OP is if you took it back to VA Speed to allow them to fix it?

No, I didn't take it to them to fix it. I had it set up with Ed to look at it and retune it if necessary. Besides, that's like having a contractor work on your house, do an absolute horrible job, and then let him back in your house to work more. Nobody in their right mind would do that.

I hope all this was just an honest mistake, and I hope they do right. I'll find out more tomorrow when I talk to Shawn.

I hear ya, but if you did not take it back to allow them to correct the problem...could have been whatever tuner they had at the time sucked and they fired that guy and have someone now that is able to correct the problem...just playing devil's advocate here.

To use the contractor example, they had some workers that sucked on a couple jobs, they fired them and then got a crew in that did amazing work that could fix it up perfect for you. You never know till you ask!

^^ I'd have to agree with that. I would have given them an opportunity to fix the problem or at the very least see what they had to say over the phone. If they didn't at least sound interested in fixing the problem over the phone I wouldn't bother bringing it back. But you might have a hard time getting your money back by not giving them a crack as fixing it.

I had the same problem with another tuner who also is a sponsor here....they didn't spend much time with my car and I had a shit tune. Called them the next day, talked to the owner and explained the situation. They kept my car for two days until it was running as it should.

We had something similar with a 2003 Cobra we tuned. Girl called and said it was running odd a week after tuning. Turned out she had developed an intake leak. We fixed it and tweaked the tune and sent her on her way. Had she just gone to another tuner and asked for her money back, we would have told her that she should have brought it to us to look at it rather than just giving her money back. I know this case was different, but at the same time, talking to them first probably would have been the best solution.

I understand where you're going but I'm not going to rip the fuel injection off the car because I don't want to retune it. I don't mind at all having it tuned. It's part of the game. You add something or change something, you have to adapt to it.

The car runs great. Ed did an awesome job on the retune. I'm sure Ed will do an awesome job when I have him retune it when I put a cam in it.3

Even if you put a carb on it, it's still got to be retuned if you make changes to the motor.Not true with a carb unless it's a major change. But I am not trying to argue that at all. If it's an fbody you have to cut the cowl and remove the windshield wipers. I have a 99 ss and won't get rid of the efi. Just not going to modify the engine much. Efi is extremely complicated and only a few have the good skills to alter it.

By all means...fire away. Any further plans for the V?

I plan on doing a cam in the near future motor-wise. I'd also like to get a Katech shifter and some Hotchkiss sway bars and some stickier tires. Eventually I'd like to ditch the DMF and go with an aluminum LS7 FW and clutch.

To all those who think I should have brought it back to VA Speed first:
I did to have the CEL turned off because they didn't disable the cat monitoring O2 sensors, which by the way I was assured that this was done, and the very first thing that they do on a tune with a car with headers. This is all in the original post, along with the slow responding O2 sensors. That's not a big deal.

However, this is:

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/152/06acc13ebfea40019830e4520b4bcc1e/l.jpg

Supposedly they tuned this, and it broke first time at the track. Again, supposedly, the full story about this will come out soon.

That's why I don't want them to touch my car. There are several threads just like that one with broken engines.

If they half-assed my tune in the first place, there is no way in hell I would feel comfortable with them doing it again. What's to say they don't screw it up more? I'm not going to trot Ed over there to watch them. Talk about awkward, if not worse.

I really got a bad feeling right off when they said I needed to change my O2 sensors because they are reacting slow. (Again, this is all in the original post.) Turns out that they just don't get as hot with headers and therefore don't react as fast. How would an experienced tuner not know this? I'm not the first car to ever come in that shop with a set of Kooks. All that needed to be done was change the parameters to allow more time for a change in reading.

It was in August. I haven't called yet because I was waiting for my car to be done. I've been working 12 hours a day/7 days a week. I just had time to pick the car up from Ed yesterday.

Like I said before, you should have call Shawn, you're had 4 months or stop by there in person.

^^ Ya got to go with your gut sometimes, and if you don't feel comfortable with them touching your car then I'd say you did the right thing. But I wouldn't expect any money out of them.

Like I said before, you should have call Shawn, you're had 4 months or stop by there in person.

No, I've had 2 weeks. That's when I found out about the bad tune.



^^ Ya got to go with your gut sometimes, and if you don't feel comfortable with them touching your car then I'd say you did the right thing. But I wouldn't expect any money out of them.

Thank you. I won't say I expect a full refund, but I would hope for at least 2/3 of it.

Not to mention that this car is put on a track. It will be seeing sustained high rpm use several times a year. I don't want to kill the car because of a bad tune. Also, I don't feel like I should have them fix it, then have to have someone else check it because I don't trust them. That's just a big pain in the ass. I shouldn't have to have someone babysit the guy doing a tune.

OK two weeks, still you did not call and talk to Shawn man to man, before you got on here and started bashing him.
I'm not saying take your car back to him to correct the tune, just talk to him before you start bashing him.
I've always know Shawn as one of the best LSX builders not one of the best LSX tuners.
There's a difference in the two. Maybe you should have done your homework first before deciding to take it there.

However, this is:

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/152/06acc13ebfea40019830e4520b4bcc1e/l.jpg

Supposedly they tuned this, and it broke first time at the track. Again, supposedly, the full story about this will come out soon.



So much for car talk....now you want to set up another to be posted soon "teaser" :nono:

Is it me or does something stink around here?

From what I see, you calling Shawn at this point will be futile. Just to recap...

1. You get work done, it isnt right and you take it to another tuner (previous employee) to "correct" the problem.

2. You wait months to make any attempt to resolve it with them and come on here (convenient) to post your one-sided "experience".

3. Additionally, in all your to date correctness, you post up another "soon to be posted" thread of another mishap with them currently on another site.

4. And finally (and my favorite)......you expect them to refund your money?!?! WTF?

That about sum it up? If I were them at this point, I'd tell you to blow it our your ass. Go away troll.....:gtfo:

Yeah, he's still bashing.

So much for car talk....now you want to set up another to be posted soon "teaser" :nono:

Is it me or does something stink around here?

From what I see, you calling Shawn at this point will be futile. Just to recap...

1. You get work done, it isnt right and you take it to another tuner (previous employee) to "correct" the problem.

2. You wait months to make any attempt to resolve it with them and come on here (convenient) to post your one-sided "experience".

3. Additionally, in all your to date correctness, you post up another "soon to be posted" thread of another mishap with them currently on another site.

4. And finally (and my favorite)......you expect them to refund your money?!?! WTF?

That about sum it up? If I were them at this point, I'd tell you to blow it our your ass. Go away troll.....:gtfo:

1. I got work done.

2. I take it to another tuner (2 weeks ago, and then find out it wasn't right). Shawn did the tune months ago, I found out that it was a bad tune a couple weeks ago.

3. That was just one of the few recent posts (which btw, is on this site as well) that made me have my tune checked in the first place.

4. Absolutely. If I don't receive what I pay for, I expect that I get my money back. Taking it back to them isn't going to be an option. I simply do not trust them at all.


Lastly, who's going to be tuning your car once you finally get the motor done and put in your car?

4. Absolutely. If I don't receive what I pay for, I expect that I get my money back. Taking it back to them isn't going to be an option. I simply do not trust them at all.

Yeah, ok....lol, good luck with that :lol:


Lastly, who's going to be tuning your car once you finally get the motor done and put in your car?

Nice try....

Yeah, ok....lol, good luck with that :lol:




Nice try....

You never know until you try.

And that's what I thought.

And that's what I thought.

Seriously? Ok...I'll bite. I'll type slow you can understand.

My build started at VSpeed for two reasons. Shawn and Ed. Shawn's engine building expertise and Ed's tuning expertise. Ed left, so a slight change in program direction. Do I install everything and still have Ed tune it or do I save myself a trip back to Virginia and go local? I'm paying for an engine to be built by Virginia Speed....nothing more, nothing less.

Maybe this is off topic..but then again, maybe not.

A couple years ago my neighbors with whom we were good friends went through a rather nasty and acrimonious divorce after what seemed to be the perfect marraige. Both of them approached me with complaints and accusations about the other. I told them both from the start that I liked and respected both of them but that sometimes things just don't work out and I wasn't going to choose a side. I encouraged both of them to accept things for what they are and just move on.

They continued their personal assaults on each other until it just wasn't fun to be around either of them. It's really a shame. They are both good people who just couldn't let go.

No, I didn't take it to them to fix it. I had it set up with Ed to look at it and retune it if necessary. Besides, that's like having a contractor work on your house, do an absolute horrible job, and then let him back in your house to work more. Nobody in their right mind would do that.

I hope all this was just an honest mistake, and I hope they do right. I'll find out more tomorrow when I talk to Shawn.

Why are you posting more pictures about stuff before you call them?

Any engine company I can think of will not cover anything if it is torn down and inspected by a third party, they almost always require that you send it back to them or else the warranty is void. If the shop is reputable and there is a problem that was their fault, I've seen people get new short-blocks. I know it goes against logic and your first reaction is to never let that person touch the car again, but sometimes its your only option.

This is different as it is a tune. That might refund your money they might not, they might credit you the money to be used against something else they might not. Never the less I wish you the best. Let us know how it turns out.

But honestly I wouldn't even bother posting back here until after you call them.

This thread is why I do 98% of my own work on my cars. If I make the mistake I can only blame myself and I have kicked my ass several times.

Maybe this is off topic..but then again, maybe not.

A couple years ago my neighbors with whom we were good friends went through a rather nasty and acrimonious divorce after what seemed to be the perfect marraige. Both of them approached me with complaints and accusations about the other. I told them both from the start that I liked and respected both of them but that sometimes things just don't work out and I wasn't going to choose a side. I encouraged both of them to accept things for what they are and just move on.

They continued their personal assaults on each other until it just wasn't fun to be around either of them. It's really a shame. They are both good people who just couldn't let go.

HAHA you've never been through a divorce. :laser:

Seriously? Ok...I'll bite. I'll type slow you can understand.

My build started at VSpeed for two reasons. Shawn and Ed. Shawn's engine building expertise and Ed's tuning expertise. Ed left, so a slight change in program direction. Do I install everything and still have Ed tune it or do I save myself a trip back to Virginia and go local? I'm paying for an engine to be built by Virginia Speed....nothing more, nothing less.

I commend you on your build. It's going to be an awesome car for sure. I can't go back and change things, as much as some would like me to do. If someone's got a DeLorean with a working flux capacitor, please let me know. Otherwise, what's done is done.

I think it's come to the point where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to continue with this epeen contest. It shouldn't have gone this far in the first place. For that I'm sorry.

Everyone has their own opinion about what should have been done first etc. etc. This was started as just an information thread. Regardless, it is what it is.

HAHA you've never been through a divorce. :laser:

Lol...dont poke the beast!

I commend you on your build. It's going to be an awesome car for sure. I can't go back and change things, as much as some would like me to do. If someone's got a DeLorean with a working flux capacitor, please let me know. Otherwise, what's done is done.

I think it's come to the point where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to continue with this epeen contest. It shouldn't have gone this far in the first place. For that I'm sorry.

Everyone has their own opinion about what should have been done first etc. etc. This was started as just an information thread. Regardless, it is what it is.

Cool here....good luck. And thanks ;)

:corn: :smokin2: :chug:

I still wouldn't mind hearing VA Speed's side of the story, but someone at their shop has had to have seen or heard about this thread, so I think by them not replying, it speaks volumes for the legitimacy of the OP's claim...although, being a big and busy shop, maybe they haven't seen it yet, in which case I take it back.

This thread is why I do 98% of my own work on my cars. If I make the mistake I can only blame myself and I have kicked my ass several times.

^^Amen. I just pray when I leave my car to any shop for any work that I cant do..

Just a little update. I talked to Shawn today and he said he was going to look into it and call me back. I haven't received the return phone yet.

Just a little update. I talked to Shawn today and he said he was going to look into it and call me back. I haven't received the return phone yet.I am sure the story the tuner is telling is interesting.

wow Im out of the loop. how long ago did Ed Hutchins leave VA speed?

Is he a sponsor on here?

Seems a little fishy to me that he used to work there and now he is contacting Va. Speed customers and "fixing" there work.

Just sayin.

He didn't contact me on these forums. It was another set of forums. And the main reason he contacted me was to ask when I had it tuned, and if it had been tuned by him, that I would be fine.

Unfortunately that wasn't the case, and I got said garbage "tune".

Also, if you had met Ed in real life, he's a damn nice guy. He genuinely cares about his customers more than the almighty dollar, which is a rarity nowadays. His philosophy is customer satisfaction first.




I'd just say that while Ed's intentions may have been in the right place, going back in his black book of VAspeed customers and "checking in" to see who tuned who's car and then selling it as "if ed tuned it, you dont have the garbage tune" is just poor business practices.


I'm sure Ed is not about the almighty dollar, that's why he didn't charge you to fix your "garbage" tune,.....right?


I don't have a dog in the hunt(well, I do have a VA speed cam if that counts?) but i will say there seem to be a lot of hate directed towards VAspeed lately, legitimate or not. I'm sure Shawn will get it cleaned up.

Still haven't heard back from Shawn yet. Just updating is all. I'm sure I'm not the only thing he's got going on.

I'd just say that while Ed's intentions may have been in the right place, going back in his black book of VAspeed customers and "checking in" to see who tuned who's car and then selling it as "if ed tuned it, you dont have the garbage tune" is just poor business practices..

Ed contacted me to just look at it and see if it was an OK tune. I didn't have a very good feeling about the one I got after reading several threads regarding VA Speed's tunes and builds.


I'm sure Ed is not about the almighty dollar, that's why he didn't charge you to fix your "garbage" tune,.....right? .

Yeah. Right. Because dynos and software are super cheap. It was agreed before I even scheduled an appointment that if I wanted it retuned, I would pay. I paid for a retune. However, the 2nd time I went back after running some Seafoam through the motor I wasn't charged. Ed wasn't happy with the amount of timing he was able to put into it without knock. After I ran Seafoam through the intake and beat on it a little bit, he was able to get another 5 degrees of timing out of the car without any knock.

How many other tuners would have been like "Well that's all I can get out of it, have a nice day." Instead Ed setup another set of runs on the dyno and tweaked his tune further and he didn't charge me a dime.


I don't have a dog in the hunt(well, I do have a VA speed cam if that counts?) but i will say there seem to be a lot of hate directed towards VAspeed lately, legitimate or not. I'm sure Shawn will get it cleaned up.

He's going to have to. There are too many threads floating around that tarnish the reputation of that shop. But you can't discredit the post without hearing both sides of the story.

He's going to have to. There are too many threads floating around that tarnish the reputation of that shop. But you can't discredit the post without hearing both sides of the story.

He's added +5* of timing to an already adjusted tune? I'm just wondering, what is your max timing at?

He's added +5* of timing to an already adjusted tune? I'm just wondering, what is your max timing at?

The first tune (by Ed) he was only able to put it at around 19 degrees. It's now at around 24 degrees.

This thread is epic fail. Number one rule in business is to always confront the person that did the work first before going anywhere else. If VA Speed hasn't seen or responded to this thread nothing has been accomplished. There are so many variables that could have taken place. If Shawn is the man everyone in this thread says he is then he would have resolved this immediately when you called him. However after this type of thread if i were Shawn i would chalk it up as a customer I didn't want to start with.... Just my .02

Why does VA speed deserve another shot to get it right? He paid good money and should have got agood tune from the start. Either they dont know how to tune at all or they rushed and took his money anyway. Eitherway they dont deserve a god damm thing except to lose the money he paid for his original "tune". What ever happened to doing the right thing or doing shit right the 1st time.

Why does VA speed deserve another shot to get it right? He paid good money and should have got agood tune from the start. Either they dont know how to tune at all or they rushed and took his money anyway. Eitherway they dont deserve a god damm thing except to lose the money he paid for his original "tune". What ever happened to doing the right thing or doing shit right the 1st time.

Thank you for your support.

If you had an issue with the tune why didn't you contact virginia speed initally?

On a side note....

Can Ed tune my car for free in exchange for a bash thread against virginia speed?

If you had an issue with the tune why didn't you contact virginia speed initally?

I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself.

Ed found the problems after looking at it. At that point, I did not trust VA Speed to touch my car again, so I told Ed to go ahead and fix it.


On a side note....

Can Ed tune my car for free in exchange for a bash thread against virginia speed?

Again, repeating myself several times. I didn't get a free tune. Ed looked at the tune for free. I paid Ed for him to put it on the dyno and tune it.

Not to mention Ed had no idea I was going to put any of this up.

Damn guys read the thread.

I love it when email lists get hack and false information gets spread along with 3rd party soliciation of "checking tunes" in exchange for bash threads. You dont hear about that kinda stuff every day. Its a small world and shit gets around quickly of what is happening behind the scenes. Carry on.

I love it when email lists get hack and false information gets spread along with 3rd party soliciation of "checking tunes" in exchange for bash threads. You dont hear about that kinda stuff every day. Its a small world and shit gets around quickly of what is happening behind the scenes. Carry on.

Who's email list got hacked Phil? You really wanna go down this road?

No one has checked any tunes in exchange for "bash" threads. Every thread started has been the doing of the car owner.

Mike Menke, I didn't even look at his car. But it was junk.

Sonny Parks, I did attempt to tune his car, but it was junk.

Next...........

I love it when email lists get hack and false information gets spread along with 3rd party soliciation of "checking tunes" in exchange for bash threads. You dont hear about that kinda stuff every day. Its a small world and shit gets around quickly of what is happening behind the scenes. Carry on.

Unless you have factual evidence to support these ludicris claims, I would suggest you shut your suck.

I however, do have evidence to support the fact that I paid for the tune Ed did. I don't think I should have to submit my PayPal statement though.

This thread was started by Mike because they didn't want to do anything for him. I never even looked at this car, or his tune......

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-forced-induction-nitrous/2898726-problems-with-the-quality-of-work-done-by-virginia-speed.html

This thread was started by Sonny, again, because they didn't want to do anything for him. I did try to tune it, but it had so many problems, I couldn't. So, instead of paying me to fix everything, he tried to take it back to them. The rest of the story is in the thread.........

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/southeast/2972319-extra-special-motor-from-virginia-speed.html

So, the only thread in question is this one, right? Or am I being accused of "trolling" all the Va Speed customers, and looking for who will post their negative experiences? Let me know Phil, so I can respond properly.

And while you're at it, please clarify on the email hacking comment, so I can respond properly to that as well.

This should get interesting folks............Get out your popcorn.

Looks suspect from the outside looking in.
If you cant see that then you are probably to close to the situation to notice.

Just sayin.

Looks suspect from the outside looking in.
If you cant see that then you are probably to close to the situation to notice.

Just sayin.

Yeah, it couldn't be that these people just received junk, and weren't happy about it.

OK, let's review. I leave Va Speed. Va Speed in the next few months turn out some work/cars the customers are unhappy with. Va Speed doesn't want to help at least 2 of these people until they post it on the net, but somehow this is my doing? You give me too much credit.

I love it when email lists get hack and false information gets spread along with 3rd party soliciation of "checking tunes" in exchange for bash threads. You dont hear about that kinda stuff every day. Its a small world and shit gets around quickly of what is happening behind the scenes. Carry on.

If this is true why just pop in here with a short little rip like that and not explain it and take the time to make it seem legitimate so people in here reading this thread wouldn't think VA Speed is just off their game?

Just saying, if you want to contribute with this so called "behind the scene" info then actually contribute, don't mention it and then act like we all aren't privy to the information.

I'm not leaning either way, just seems like this thread is going to get locked and we will never learn how this end's. If someone has a secret... spill it, for the sake of someone on the fence of a $15,000 build... cmon guys.

^^ AMEN!

Oh, And...

:corn: :cheers:

Why does VA speed deserve another shot to get it right? He paid good money and should have got a good tune from the start.

+1 Virginia Speed said, "They do NOT warranty their work." So, why would you allow them to make a bad situation worse? An engine builder playing 'tuner' and technicians that lack attention to detail.... :shiner:

It's an unfortunate pattern of poor quality dyno and street tuning (since Ed left), substandard work and questionable customer service from this shop over the past several months... Some members were fortunate enough to find these critical problems before they lost an engine or worse, while others were not as fortunate.

Do you think Virginia Speed will attempt blame their customer(s) for any major problems originating from their shop in an effort to avoid any potential liability for a service warranty that does not exist? When the blame game doesn't work, do you think we'll hear things like, "this is a rare occurrence"?

I read through the 12 pages (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-forced-induction-nitrous/2898726-problems-with-the-quality-of-work-done-by-virginia-speed.html) of Mike04's post about his problems with Virginia Speed, and found these excuses:

* We didn't finish the car - thought you knew that.
* We thought you would debug it yourself.
* We had other customer cars to work on.
* We had installation problems because we were rushed.
* We didn't have time to go over the car thoroughly.
* We had 'housekeeping' issues.

Take a look at this post from Shawn (last sentence (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1578506016-post95.html)) dated 24 August 2011, and I quote, "Our lesson learned in all of this is not to release a vehicle that is not finished."

According to Shawn, the original quote for SonnyinVA's project (http://ls1tech.com/forums/ls1tech-sponsor-feedback/1498989-extra-special-motor-virginia-speed.html) said, "dyno tuning", but their tuner left in the middle of the project, so he was not charged for tuning - just a couple of dyno runs. Shawn said, "We do not have lt1 tuning software and don't plan on getting any." You would "think" Virginia Speed would bring in another LT tuner to finish the vehicle right.

Why would Virginia Speed "do a couple of dyno runs" if they could NOT do any tuning??? Do you think they made an honest effort to ship his PCM to an experienced LT1 tuner (http://www.lt1pcmtuning.com/service/order.php) or use this option (http://www.pcmforless.com/index.php?option=/com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=96) with a build sheet and supporting information so the car could leave their shop 'right' vs. PIG RICH?

This is another "sad story (http://ls1tech.com/forums/15772143-post14.html)".... lack of attention to detail and care. Perhaps you need to be a "Top Tier" customer that spends $20K or more to get proper attention and customer service from Virginia Speed. I had my own share of problems with Virginia Speed during my last project, which is why I will no longer give them my hard earned money.

I've been working with Ed Hutchings long before he joined Virginia Speed - a supporting vendor on both LS1tech, the Corvette Forum and others - and he was the ONLY reason why I brought my vette to their shop because of his exceptional work ethic, technical knowledge, tuning skills and great customer service after the work is done.

Ed's been tuning and fixing other problematic tunes long before he joined Virginia Speed, and will no doubt continue to help forum members and customers by re-tuning - especially from this shop - for some time to come. He's a great resource for us forum members. Thanks Ed!

I'm adding to this thread to state for the record that Ed did not solicit me to bash Va Speed in the thread that I started on the Corvette Forum that is linked above. My issues were not with the tune.

Douglas the owner of Va Speed, in my opinion, was honest with me about the issues surrounding my build and worked to resolve them. With that being said, there were far too many things that were not right to ever make things 100% good though. It did take awhile for him to respond to my concerns. If you take the time to read my post you would hopefully understand what I'm saying.

Shawn has helped me a few times since working out other bugs that have come up.

I tune my cars myself so I have no reason to jump on Ed's band wagon or to try to get free tunes. He has given me a few pointers about things but that is about it.

I had all my work done at VA speed and tuned by ED...He is very good at tuning, But thier techs are garbage..I had a motor mount almost fall off,the wrong length pushrods installed,A false overheating alarm due to improper wire harness routing,valve covers from a LS1,missing strut brace and beauty covers..Those fuckers charged me a 1000.00 dollars to install LT's and on top of that they were suppose to be kooks 1 7/8 LT's,but what they installed were 1 3/4 Lt's..

Not many good ls1 tuners around unless they developed the programs for GM. I couldn't do it.

The first two sentences in post #96 speak volumes.

I can certainly understand the OP's frustration cause I've been down the worst case scenario road.

I originally had mine tuned at MTI in Houston back in the day. I think the guys name was Jason. According to everyone I talked to, it was the place to go for ls tuning. Two days later, my new 06 truck with only 14k miles on it had a motor with a hole burned in one of the pistons. I towed the truck back to MTI to diagnose the problem and all they could say was "so what motor do you want us to build". I walked out...

If you have a tune done, have a contract signed with the company or individual. Make it binding with responsibility attached to it. I am a roofer. If the roof leaks there is a 5 year guarantee on Labor and materials to fix it and repair to any damage done which resulted from the leak. Why is this any different?

If you have a tune done, have a contract signed with the company or individual. Make it binding with responsibility attached to it. I am a roofer. If the roof leaks there is a 5 year guarantee on Labor and materials to fix it and repair to any damage done which resulted from the leak. Why is this any different?

Perhaps Doug, the owner of Virginia Speed, along with Shawn his business manager, are the type that think ALL customers are just looking for an excuse to 'sue' if something is not right with 'their' work vs. just wanting to get the job done right and working with the customer to resolve any shop related issues. I think their "NO Warranty" stance speaks volumes about their quality of work and customer service......

If you have a tune done, have a contract signed with the company or individual. Make it binding with responsibility attached to it. I am a roofer. If the roof leaks there is a 5 year guarantee on Labor and materials to fix it and repair to any damage done which resulted from the leak. Why is this any different?

Just about any contract you sign with a tuner is going to say that they are not responsible for anything that happens to your vehicle, and that you assume all responsibilities. Just look at the legal disclamer to HPtuners or EFILive. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

I love it when email lists get hack and false information gets spread along with 3rd party soliciation of "checking tunes" in exchange for bash threads. You dont hear about that kinda stuff every day. Its a small world and shit gets around quickly of what is happening behind the scenes. Carry on.

If this is true why just pop in here with a short little rip like that and not explain it and take the time to make it seem legitimate so people in here reading this thread wouldn't think VA Speed is just off their game?


Yeah, Phil, why not explain? I mean, if an email list got hacked, surely there would be some evidence, right? So how bout you come back in here, and explain your false information? After all, I have nothing to hide. I'd LOVE to respond to any allegations here publicly with FACTUAL information, such as emails, PMs, lawyer letters, etc.

Oh, looky what I found last night trying to find Mike's other thread....

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-forced-induction-nitrous/2966761-cracked-my-innovator-west-balancer.html

I think your on to something here.

From what I understand the snout was modified, not sure what would need to be done to an LS7 crank. I trusted the engine builder that what was being done was not an issue and it was done by Lunati. Availability for a crank was an issue on a Dragon Slayer and I gave the OK to up it to the Lunati Pro Series because I didn't want to wait 6 or so weeks. After that I found out it was modified.

Below are a few pics from my phone. I believe the key was too long. It is stuck in the keyway right now, haven't tried to pry it out with a tool yet. The end does look like it is smashed by the balancer being tightened down on it. There is your crack cause.... :ack:

Why my oil pan crack is beyond me short of the obvious cause of not having the front cover in place correctly putting strain on the pan.

Time to throw some more money at the car :crazy:

How many more issues am I going to find. I haven't even posted everything that I've found.





See, it can't possibly be that the work Va Speed is turning out is responsible for all these posts, right? It has to be ME.

Phil, I'm telling you, you're not doing them any favors by poking the hornet's nest.

:corn:

I love it when email lists get hack and false information gets spread along with 3rd party soliciation of "checking tunes" in exchange for bash threads. You dont hear about that kinda stuff every day. Its a small world and shit gets around quickly of what is happening behind the scenes. Carry on.
:hump: :sack: :swing:

What we have here is a customer wanting free labor in trade for his internet defense support, hence the unsupported claim (definition of a lie :eyes:). Doesn't need the freebies because his bank account is flush I'm sure, but every bit helps right? At least now we all know how easily your integrity gets put on the shelf. :thumbsdow

Yeah, Phil, why not explain? I mean, if an email list got hacked, surely there would be some evidence, right? So how bout you come back in here, and explain your false information? After all, I have nothing to hide. I'd LOVE to respond to any allegations here publicly with FACTUAL information, such as emails, PMs, lawyer letters, etc.

Oh, looky what I found last night trying to find Mike's other thread....

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-forced-induction-nitrous/2966761-cracked-my-innovator-west-balancer.html





See, it can't possibly be that the work Va Speed is turning out is responsible for all these posts, right? It has to be ME.

Phil, I'm telling you, you're not doing them any favors by poking the hornet's nest.

Here is the deal Ed. I dont think anyone is disputing that you are a very accomplished tuner and you know the tunes in and out on HPtuners or EFIlive better than Virginia Speed. Alot of it is in how you do it and come across.

Can you get a Good tune from Virginia Speed, absolutely. Can you get someone who "specializes" in GM tuning make a few tweaks to make it better? Probably. With the complexity of the late model ECU its impossible for one person or entity unless they have a dedicated tuner to be able to maximize the entire tune.

As far as you looking at tunes, you are well respected but when the conversation has a "contingent" clause of a thread that states you "Fixed their work", thats bullshit in my book. Adding 3-4% of fuel here and taking 3-4% there and touching it up doesn't constitue fixing a tune. After all, weather has an effect on these tunes but you'll never say that.

Most of the people rely on the tuner to tell them whats good or bad within a tune and I'd be willing to bet when you look at any tune from Virginia speed or any other tuner the conversation starts out with "its junk or its fucked up" when it just needs to be tweaked.

Ed just remember Karma is a bitch, its clear you've got an axe to grind with Virginia Speed.

I've been doing this for 13 years now and for the life of me, I just dont understand why someone spends good money with any vendor they dont give them a chance to replace, fix, or correct whatever issue remains. Its a dick move and says alot about your character to have a shop work on your car and not give them the benefit of the doubt to try to fix an issue let alone call them before you post a bash thread on any forum. Weather it be an issue with a noise, fluid or driving issue. Man up, put your big boy pants on and call the shop and have them fix it. If the shop tells you to pound sand then game on, flame away.

As far as the customer you offered a free/discount tune in exchange for a "Ed fixes Virginia speeds tune" thread, he was turned off by the offer and he is bringing his car to my shop so I can "touch up" the tune for free.

Ed just remember Karma is a bitch, its clear you've got an axe to grind with Virginia Speed.


Phil, please tell me how this was anything to do with all of the stuff posted about Va Speed lately?

And as far as my "axe to grind", why? Why do I have an axe to grind Phil? They didn't fire me, I left on what I thought was good terms. Why would I have an axe to grind?

As for Karma, yes, it is a bitch. I think Va Speed is experiencing that right now. As for me, well, I haven't done anything wrong to piss off Ms. Karma.

Please explain Phil..........:corn:

As far as the customer you offered a free/discount tune in exchange for a "Ed fixes Virginia speeds tune" thread, he was turned off by the offer and he is bringing his car to my shop so I can "touch up" the tune for free.

I didn't offer a free or discounted tune to anyone. I told this "customer" I would retune his car AFTER HE EMAILED/PMed ME AND ASKED ME TO as long as he came on here and posted that I fixed it. Why? Because he had come on here and posted that Va Speed tuned it and it "ran great in traffic" when in reality he was PMing me telling me it wasn't. So my point was, I wasn't going to fix a car they tuned, and have them get false credit for "it runs great in traffic".

I have PMs and emails to back this up.........

This is one of several that have contacted me about retuning their stuff.

Next.............

I've got emails, PMs, letters, logs. You really wanna go down this road? This thread wasn't started by me. You are not helping Va Speed's cause by irritating me. I did nothing wrong. I've have been contacted by several of their customers, not the other way around.


From:******@mitre.org
To: edcmat-l1@msn.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:17:24 -0400
Subject: RE: 402 build

Ed,

How’s Deutchland? Any idea when you might be in Northern Virginia? The tune needs to have your magic touch to clean up some low rpm surge issues. It also has a hard time finding idle.

Thanks, ******

From: edcmat-l1@msn.com
To: ******@mitre.org
Subject: RE: I'm back
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 07:01:02 -0400

*****,

I will be totally honest though, if you want me to clean it up, I want intraweb credit for it. Primarily because of the thank you post to Va Speed, including the comment about stop and go traffic. If I'm having to clean up their toons, I want people to know about it.

Ed

From: *****@mitre.org
To: edcmat-l1@msn.com
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 11:50:06 -0400
Subject: RE: I'm back

Ed,

I’m not going to get in the middle of this between you and them. I’ll have to figure something else out.

*****

From: edcmat-l1@msn.com
To: ******@mitre.org
Subject: RE: I'm back
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 11:55:01 -0400

*****,

That's what I figured. Please understand I don't want to clean up their mess when you've given them the credit for "driving in traffic" or however you put it.

If you had posted that they finished the car, but it idle hunts, and surges, and it's way too rich in the midrange, that would be different.

Sorry,
Ed

People here in the area around VA Speed, Wont touch that shop as they burned every local that tried to do business with them. Literally people will go out of there way to have other places build motors and have work done as to not have VA Speed touch it.

My personal experiance was I had a bung welded to my pan. First time cost me around $140. Ok no big deal. getting the car back together realized that i didnt really tell them where to put it and it was in the way. No problem my fault so i take it back... 2nd time they charged me $260... Why because they said they had to clean the pan... which they did last time also. I have more stories of local guys getting fucked by this place since they opened.

Alot of it is in how you do it and come across.

And how is it that I "come across" Phil? I have been gone from Va Speed for about 8-9 months now, and this is the first and only "tune" thread. So, how is it I "come across"? I've retuned several cars that have come from there, and no one has even heard about them. Why? Because the car owners didn't come on praising them for their tuning skills, only to be emailing me wanting them fixed. If they did, I would have responded the same way. I'm not going to fix someone elses junk, when that someone else is being praised. Especially "THEM".

You only hear one side. THEIR side. You have no idea the FACTS. If you'd like to talk FACTS we can email, or PM, or post it here. I don't care. I don't have anything to hide.

Why did you leave Va speed?

Why did you leave Va speed?

For a list of reasons. Some of which are playing out right now. Not just this thread but the others all over the internet.

There are 3 types of workers/employees/managers:
1. They see what's wrong and chose to do nothing but complain and be miserable.
2. They see what's wrong and chose to try and make things better.
3. They see what's wrong, and after trying to make things better without success, chose to get the f' out.

This thread was started by Mike because they didn't want to do anything for him. I never even looked at this car, or his tune......

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-forced-induction-nitrous/2898726-problems-with-the-quality-of-work-done-by-virginia-speed.html

This thread was started by Sonny, again, because they didn't want to do anything for him. I did try to tune it, but it had so many problems, I couldn't. So, instead of paying me to fix everything, he tried to take it back to them. The rest of the story is in the thread.........

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/southeast/2972319-extra-special-motor-from-virginia-speed.html

So, the only thread in question is this one, right? Or am I because accused of "trolling" all the Va Speed customers, and looking for who will post their negative experiences? Let me know Phil, so I can respond properly.

And while you're at it, please clarify on the email hacking comment, so I can respond properly to that as well.

This should get interesting folks............Get out your popcorn.



Wow, just wow.

Still haven't heard from Shawn. I will call him again tomorrow afternoon if he hasnt contacted me by then to get an update.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BfmuVxzYgGQ/TUCQLLukzNI/AAAAAAAAAsI/7aaQ_2bVmfc/s1600/bad-customer-service%2B2.gif

After VA Speed finished my rebuild, Ed did my tune and I paid him good money for it. He certainly did not offer a discount or to do it for free or in any way try to entice me to post negative comments about VA Speed.

The car is at VA Speed right now and they are working on it, and I hope that it will all be worked out. I will definitely let you guys know how it turns out.

Good to hear things are getting worked out Sonny. It's unfortunate that things had to go this far, but it is what it is.

Your post is one of the major ones that made me question va speed in the first place.

So a readers digest version....

- You had va speed do some work/tune june/july maybe
- couple months go by
- you return to have only a check engine light addressed over those few months you noticed no driveability or reliability issues
- few more months go by and no concerns
- january almost 6-7 months later you talk to Ed and somehow the tune gets questioned
- you never once called Virginia speed and expressed any concern for the tune after ed suggested it might need to be tweaked
- during those 5-7 months no concerns were expressed to Virginia Speed
- you have Ed tune your car 1st week in January
- 3 days later you post a thread expressing your dissatisfaction with their tune
- a week after the shit storm thread is posted you call virginia speed to express your dissatisfaction

Sorry but its a dick move to bash a vendor(I dont care who it is) before you give them a shot to fix the issue.

So a readers digest version....

- You had va speed do some work/tune june/july maybe
- couple months go by
- you return to have only a check engine light addressed over those few months you noticed no driveability or reliability issues
- few more months go by and no concerns
- january almost 6-7 months later you talk to Ed and somehow the tune gets questioned
- you never once called Virginia speed and expressed any concern for the tune after ed suggested it might need to be tweaked
- during those 5-7 months no concerns were expressed to Virginia Speed
- you have Ed tune your car 1st week in January
- 3 days later you post a thread expressing your dissatisfaction with their tune
- a week after the shit storm thread is posted you call virginia speed to express your dissatisfaction

Sorry but its a dick move to bash a vendor(I dont care who it is) before you give them a shot to fix the issue.

So,,,,,,,,, You're off my butt now? Is this still all my fault? No admitting you were wrong? Is this how it's going to be next time? Just asking, so I can be prepared. You know, with facts and all.

So a readers digest version....

- You had va speed do some work/tune june/july maybe
- couple months go by
- you return to have only a check engine light addressed over those few months you noticed no driveability or reliability issues
- few more months go by and no concerns
- january almost 6-7 months later you talk to Ed and somehow the tune gets questioned
- you never once called Virginia speed and expressed any concern for the tune after ed suggested it might need to be tweaked
- during those 5-7 months no concerns were expressed to Virginia Speed
- you have Ed tune your car 1st week in January
- 3 days later you post a thread expressing your dissatisfaction with their tune
- a week after the shit storm thread is posted you call virginia speed to express your dissatisfaction

Sorry but its a dick move to bash a vendor(I dont care who it is) before you give them a shot to fix the issue.

It was August.
Yes the check engine light came on the next day. Why, because they didn't do something they said was the first thing they do.
Check engine still coming on, they say I need to change O2 sensors. I find out that's not the case. It's just another change in the tune that has to be done.
A bunch of quality control issues come up and I question the quality of the tune. If I called VA Speed expressing my concern, what the F do you think they are going to say? "Naw man, we didn't have a whole lot of time to work on your shit, so we just pecked at the keyboard and said 'Good Nuff' ".

You're living in a dream world Hoss.

And by the way, I'd like to point out that NOT ONCE have you defended the tune they gave me. You've just expressed OVER AND OVER AND OVER how displeased you are that I didn't call VA Speed after I found out I had a garbage tune.

You're a broken record, sir.

This is my understanding based on my review of this thread:

o Customer takes car to VA Speed for a dyno and street tune

o VA Speed states they achieved +25 horsepower - tuned by Shawn (VA Speed Engine Builder)

o Customer CEL comes on after taking delivery of his car and told he needs new 02 sensors

o Customer performs research on VA Speed and learns of quality control issues and problems

o Customer becomes concerned about the quality of his tune since he plans to do HPDE or TT

o Ed contacts customer to see if he was the one that tuned his car, or if it was someone else

o Ed offers to check the problematic tune since the customer requested help for peace of mind

o VA Speed tune increased the knock retard recovery rate by 9,000% and made the AFR too rich

o Ed recommended using Seafoam to cleanup the intake from the excessively rich AFR condition

o Ed offered to retune afterward, which allowed more timing and netted 10 more HP with less KR

o Customer contacts Shawn on 16 January to discuss issue - no response in 4 days and counting

Going back to the shop to fix a mechanical problem is different than going back to fix a tuning issue.

You can have the shop replace a wire, tighten a bolt and repair a leak based on faulty workmanship.

Going back to a tuner that did a poor job tuning with the hope of an improved tune :disgust: No Thanks.

^^ EXACTLY WHAT I GOT FROM ALL THIS TOO! :)
It's pretty sad that nobody from VA Speed has even chimed in here. Apparently they are too busy to make an attempt at fixing a problem, or obtaining a good reputation. I guess it's 1 of those... who cares, we have our loyal customers to take care of. So screw everybody else!
This is really disturbing considering I was planning on doing a Build with them just last year. It pretty much came down to VA Speed, Vengeance Racing, AES, And ERL. I know who I won't be having touch my engine. ;)
To think I was quoted $16,900 for an engine from a shop who obviously doesn't give 2 shits about their customers. And Thats obvious by the lack of response in this thread, and the lack of communication with an upset customer. Sooo Glad I chose another company for my build!
I work in the automotive field (and Yes I will say it...You Can't please Everyone) But an Attempt is better than nothing at all.
Hell, I would really just like to hear their side of the story!

It was August.
Yes the check engine light came on the next day. Why, because they didn't do something they said was the first thing they do.
Check engine still coming on, they say I need to change O2 sensors. I find out that's not the case. It's just another change in the tune that has to be done.
A bunch of quality control issues come up and I question the quality of the tune. If I called VA Speed expressing my concern, what the F do you think they are going to say? "Naw man, we didn't have a whole lot of time to work on your shit, so we just pecked at the keyboard and said 'Good Nuff' ".

You're living in a dream world Hoss.

And by the way, I'd like to point out that NOT ONCE have you defended the tune they gave me. You've just expressed OVER AND OVER AND OVER how displeased you are that I didn't call VA Speed after I found out I had a garbage tune.

You're a broken record, sir.

1) I agree with you that the A/F was not perfectly flat, could it have used a couple more pulls to tweak it so it was perfect. Virginia Speed never claimed to be a master HP Tuner.

2) Yes, Ed did a fantastic job of smoothing out the A/F and seafoaming to be able to add more timing. I'm alittle disappointed that with the A/F and timing, it didn't pickup more. You picked up a solid 10hp/10tq according to the correction factor. If the tuneup was garbage you would have picked up a solid 30+, I've seen that a few times. Knowing that you seafoamed the motor and added 5 degrees of timing and gained 10rwhp/rwtq....:bang:

3) As far as the knock retard table, I am very familiar with what that does on the C5. If the tuner knows what these motors like there is no need for a knock sensor. It should not have had a large change but mistakes happen when editing.

4) You mention that the last dyno pull from virginia speed was wavy showing knock BUT....
The first pull at Ed's shop tune untouched was smooth, did it magically fix itself?

5) What caused it to lean out a full point from 3000 to 3750 from the last pull at VA Speed? Did it have anything to do with weather conditions at the dyno? August was in the 100s and January was in the 30s. Did the drastic change in atmospheric conditions change the A/F?

I'll respond below...
This is my understanding based on my review of this thread:

o Customer takes car to VA Speed for a dyno and street tune

o VA Speed states they achieved +25 horsepower - tuned by Shawn (VA Speed Engine Builder)

o Customer CEL comes on after taking delivery of his car and told he needs new 02 sensors
Most guys buy front O2 sensors and put them in the rear holes, higher watt heater keeps them hotter and switching at a faster rate.

o Customer performs research on VA Speed and learns of quality control issues and problems

o Customer becomes concerned about the quality of his tune since he plans to do HPDE or TT

o Ed contacts customer to see if he was the one that tuned his car, or if it was someone else

o Ed offers to check the problematic tune since the customer requested help for peace of mind

o VA Speed tune increased the knock retard recovery rate by 9,000% and made the AFR too rich
How exactly does a knock retard recovery rate change AFR. Does it modify the PE, does it add to the predicted airflow model or do you really have no clue what your talking about?

o Ed recommended using Seafoam to cleanup the intake from the excessively rich AFR condition
100% bullshit. Most of these motors have issues with the PCV system and suck oil through the intake manifold coating the cylinder head runners, combustion chambers, valves with caked on oil. Considering that I've tuned bone stock cars and the A/F has been in the 11.2-11.6 range, an A/F @ 12.0:1 is not excessively rich. My tunes are usually 12.3-12.5 at peak torque and just a touch leaner at peak HP.

o Ed offered to retune afterward, which allowed more timing and netted 10 more HP with less KR
How much knock retard did it have on the base tune? Did the fact the car was orginally tuned in 100 degree weather play a role in how much timing it liked at that specific atmospheric condition?

o Customer contacts Shawn on 16 January to discuss issue - no response in 2 weeks and counting
2 weeks, your math is alittle skewed. Today is the 20th, thats 4 days. So he starts a shit storm, waits a week to call Virginia Speed and is wondering why they haven't called him back? I would have told him to pound sand that day. If you dont give me the respect of a 2nd look than your not a customer I wanted in the first place.

Going back to the shop to fix a mechanical problem is different than going back to fix a tuning issue. You can have the shop replace a wire, tighten a bolt and repair a leak based on faulty workmanship.

Going back to a tuner that did a poor job tuning with the hope of an improved tune :disgust: No Thanks.
Yeah, 10rwhp/10rwtq from more timing because the motor was seafoamed and tuned in 30 degree temps. Get real. Dyno correction factors only give you a general idea, they dont factor in the density/temp of the air intake charge and its likelyness to knock based on IAT. Its a fact jack the hotter temp coming in the more likely it is to knock, did you ever think that the A/F was rich on purpose due to the dyno conditions(100 degree weather)?

Phil, you already came in here and questioned my integrity, and I shot that down. You really want to question me technically? Seriously? You aren't doing them any favors. Every time you post, you do 2 things. You bump this thread, and you make them and yourself look worse.

Look, had you never posted and drug me into it, I would have stayed out of this completely.

I'd rather not continue this, but I will if you continue to push the issue. It won't do anything but get worse for them.

^^ EXACTLY WHAT I GOT FROM ALL THIS TOO! :)
It's pretty sad that nobody from VA Speed has even chimed in here. Apparently they are too busy to make an attempt at fixing a problem, or obtaining a good reputation. I guess it's 1 of those... who cares, we have our loyal customers to take care of. So screw everybody else!
This is really disturbing considering I was planning on doing a Build with them just last year. It pretty much came down to VA Speed, Vengeance Racing, AES, And ERL. I know who I won't be having touch my engine. ;)
To think I was quoted $16,900 for an engine from a shop who obviously doesn't give 2 shits about their customers. And Thats obvious by the lack of response in this thread, and the lack of communication with an upset customer. Sooo Glad I chose another company for my build!
I work in the automotive field (and Yes I will say it...You Can't please Everyone) But an Attempt is better than nothing at all.
Hell, I would really just like to hear their side of the story!

Its tough to communicate with customers who dont call. Fact is, Virginia speed has heard from the OP 3 times, once when the car was tuned, second time when the rear O2s needed to be deleted which was done with no bitching(2-3 months later) and third time(2-3 months after the 2nd contact), a week after this bash thread came out. I am sure if you work in the automotive field you can understand this.

The timeline (readers digest version) is based on posts provided by the OP, so you can direct your questions to him. This thread began on 9 January - 11 days ago, and he contacted Shawn 4 days ago. What's next? Are you going to blame Global Warming for the poor tune from Virginia Speed? Fact is there is an increasing number of dissatisfied customers coming from Virginia Speed for approx. 7 months now, and they should be asking themselves, Why? I had my own issues with this shop, which can be traced back to a lack of attention to detail, customer service, and workmanship.

I know the guy that lost his engine at VIR - I was there - and it was the first HPDE after taking delivery of his Corvette from Virginia Speed (the photo of the damaged piston)... Based on my personal experience, I found that if you're a "Big Spender" - $25K+, you get adequate attention, but if you're the average guy $8K to $20K; you're treated as a 2nd class citizen that gets rushed through the system, or placed on hold for the "Big Spenders". YMMV.

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/152/06acc13ebfea40019830e4520b4bcc1e/l.jpg

It doesn't take a tuning 'genius' to know you shouldn't DISABLE the safeguards that protect the engine against damaging knock..... perhaps you're suggesting the OP should have waited until his engine looked like this one.....

Its tough to communicate with customers who dont call. Fact is, Virginia speed has heard from the OP 3 times, once when the car was tuned, second time when the rear O2s needed to be deleted which was done with no bitching(2-3 months later) and third time(2-3 months after the 2nd contact), a week after this bash thread came out. I am sure if you work in the automotive field you can understand this.

-I agree, When customers do not call and give you a 2nd chance at fixing it then it is hard to correct an issue!

-However, I personally would not have taken it back after knowing the tune was screwed up in the first place. If it was off a little here and there thats ok. I'd give them a 2nd chance. Everyone makes mistakes. We are all human! But if it was WAY off then Hell No I wouldn't want them to even touch my car again! Just my honest oppinion there.

-And I do work in the automotive field and I sometimes catch that "well every since you did this ..... , my car does this....." Bullsh!t. Being an employee, I do what I can to make it right b/c I want them to return. That's how I make my living. By their repeat business. :)
But If I offer nothing, or avoid a customer completely by blowing them off... then I deserve whatever bashing I get from that person.

This is a very touchy subject for both VA Speed (I'm sure) and the OP.
You have a companies reputation at stake - Which I feel they don't even care about, by them not setting it straight. At least not telling us their side of the story.
And the OP, b/c he had to pay for a tune 2 times in order to get a good tune. And he was lucky that there was no serious damage to his engine as a result of VA Speed's negligence to offer a quality tune!

At my shop, Customer is Priority 1.
Have we ate thousands of $$$ to keep an honest name? Even when we were in the right? Yes!
Does that mean we do shady work, No!
It just means we want to make people happy by providing them with honest, quality, affordable auto repairs at whatever the cost may be.
It takes 1 person to give a shop a bad name and cost them Thousands of $$$. Ever notice how when someone gets good service, you rarely hear about it. BUT, When shitty work is done... EVERYONE hears about it?

Prime example right here.

I remember when a guy came in for brakes, We called with an estimate and he approved. Then he came back after picking it up complaining of noise. We looked at it and drove it several times. No Noise was heard. He picked the car up again. A few days later, same thing. He left the car again. So we replaced EVERYTHING (Pads and Rotors) and lubed all contact points. Didn't charge him anything. He picked it up. He came back again a week later stating he hears noise. Again we drive it and never heard a noise. We offered him a refund b/c we couldn't fix his problem, We never heard the noise, and we told him to keep the brakes. It was Our Loss!
What does the guy do, bashes us on a local site saying we overcharged him and he just wanted his $ back. But yet he agreed to the price. Which by the way, was quoted Right out of the Labor guide. And we didn't even mark the brakes up like we normally did b/c he was a new customer. We wanted him to be happy with our work and prices.
Long story short, I feel like he just wanted something for nothing and Bitched about it til we gave him his $ back!
Well he got his $ back... And 3 months later he returned to have more work done. I personally wanted NOTHING to do with him, but I repaired his car anyways and now he is a loyal customer. Ironically enough!

Just show's how a little give - goes a long way! That $300 brake job has made us Lots of money off of this guy!

Either way, I'm not directly involved, But I would love to see VA Speed step up to the plate and offer something to this guy!

Just my .02

If you tune a car in thirty degree weather does that mean when the humidity goes up along with the temperature you have to get it retuned? If that were the case you might as well have the tuner move in and when you go somewhere he can grab his laptop. Hahahaha.

The timeline (readers digest version) is based on posts provided by the OP, so you can direct your questions to him. This thread began on 9 January - 11 days ago, and he contacted Shawn 4 days ago. What's next? Are you going to blame Global Warming for the poor tune from Virginia Speed? Fact is there is an increasing number of dissatisfied customers coming from Virginia Speed for approx. 7 months now, and they should be asking themselves, Why? I had my own issues with this shop, which can be traced back to a lack of attention to detail, customer service, and workmanship. I know the guy that lost his engine at VIR - I was there - and it was the first HPDE after taking delivery of his Corvette from Virginia Speed (the photo of the damaged piston)... Based on my personal experience, I found that if you're a "Big Spender" - $25K+, you get adequate attention, but if you're the average guy $8K to $20K; you're treated as a 2nd class citizen that gets rushed through the system, or placed on hold for the "Big Spenders". YMMV.

I know Ed is your buddy and you dont tune so I really dont expect you to know how weather effects a tune.

Are you going to blame Global Warming for the poor tune from Virginia Speed?
The reason the factory ECU has oxygen sensors is it needs them to correct the Air/Fuel to changing atmospheric conditions. As weather changes along with barometric pressure, temp, humidity the tuneup is going to change and is why GM uses oxygen sensors. They can correct the A/F up to 25% either way.

I guess it would have been an interesting test if the OP had gone through the normal chain of command of an "unsatisfied" customer eventhough he had said the car drove great on the revisit to virginia speed for the rear O2 fix tuneup. You know the whole customer calls the shop and says he is worried about the tune than Virginia speed is either going to A) Tell him to come in and lets get it fixed or B) Tell him to pound sand.

If you tune a car in thirty degree weather does that mean when the humidity goes up along with the temperature you have to get it retuned? If that were the case you might as well have the tuner move in and when you go somewhere he can grab his laptop. Hahahaha.

The A/F is going to move, there is no 2 ways around that. A 5% swing in accuracy will show a .7 change in A/F. So 13.0:1 could become 13.7:1, and 13.0 could become 12.75%. GM is limited by cost on their powertrain program. They have to be able to sell a product in a specific price point to attract a customer, that price point is going to dictate a ECU that has flaws and hence the reason for O2 sensors(a wideband 5 volt) would be a step up. A Motec would be a step up but the price point does not work in the gm pricing model for their vehicles.

I know Ed is your buddy and you dont tune so I really dont expect you to know how weather effects a tune.


And we know you're Shawn's buddy, so you wanna just let it die or we going to keep this up all day?

Even by your admittance, it was tuned by them in the summer, and me in the winter. Even though it was no where near 30 deg. If you'd like I can get the exact conditions for you.

Now, on to the knock issue. You said it would be more likely to knock in the heat, yet I had horrible knock in the cool whether, with only 18-19 degrees of timing max. How much timing should you be able to run in a header only LS2? You tune, surely you must know the answer to this. So, if we're in significantly cooler temps, and by your admittance it should be more prone to knock in the heat, when they tuned it, and we're only seeing 19 degrees, would you not think, AS A TUNER, something isn't right? I mean, if you've tuned a few of these things, you know what they take, what they average. If one comes in that for some reason won't take the norm (as far as timing) wouldn't you want to know why? Wouldn't you look further, or just bang some keys on the keyboard and kick it out the door?

Not only was it knocking AUDIBLY, but the recovery rate was so freekin high IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY RECOVER FROM THE KNOCK. That's the real kicker here. A key part of the protection was nearly completely disabled!!!

Now, combine that with a customer that says "yeah I track it on a road course" what would your approach be, AS A TUNER, PHIL?

I mean, if it's knocking so bad I can hear it, IN THE COOLER TEMPS, then how bad could it possibly be in the heat? How bad could it have been WHEN THEY TUNED IT? I mean, not only could I not get the PROPER amount of timing in it WITHOUT it knocking, IT WAS TO TUNED TO NEVER RECOVER ONCE IT DID KNOCK!!!

As for how much power it made before and after, there is no magical amount per degree of timing, or per point of A/F ratio. I could care less what the difference is. It's not about the difference. It's about getting the proper amount of timing in it for the combo. Getting the A/F where it's SAFE for what HE'S USING THE CAR FOR, and most importantly RESTORING THE CAR'S "BUILT IN" DAMAGE CONTROL TO SOMETHING THAT WOULD ACTUALLY CONTROL DAMAGE IF THE NEED ARISES.

Maybe he should have waited until his pistons looked like the one in the picture before seeking a second opinion.

If a shop says there going to "tune" a car then why does it get brought up "well hes a master engine builder, not a tuner"? Then why the F*** is he tuning. Don't get me wrong as a person Shawn is a pretty good guy, he lives two houses down from me. But Va Speed as a shop has quality issues and the owner, well, I wont tell you what the owner is.

Oh and here is our Virginia forum and the thread about Sonny's car. These our local guys who won't TOUCH that shop.
http://www.vadriven.com/forums/vendor-reviews-57/virginia-speed-%3D-extra-special-motor-424681/

Enjoy.

If a shop says there going to "tune" a car then why does it get brought up "well hes a master engine builder, not a tuner"? Then why the F*** is he tuning. Don't get me wrong as a person Shawn is a pretty good guy, he lives two houses down from me. But Va Speed as a shop has quality issues and the owner, well, I wont tell you what the owner is.

Oh and here is our Virginia forum and the thread about Sonny's car. These our local guys who won't TOUCH that shop.
http://www.vadriven.com/forums/vendor-reviews-57/virginia-speed-%3D-extra-special-motor-424681/

Enjoy.

Is that the car that had no oil pressure because the oil sender broke and broken pieces of the oil pressure sender were found in the oil pan? Just askin.

I guess it would have been an interesting test if the OP had gone through the normal chain of command of an "unsatisfied" customer eventhough he had said the car drove great on the revisit to virginia speed for the rear O2 fix tuneup. You know the whole customer calls the shop and says he is worried about the tune than Virginia speed is either going to A) Tell him to come in and lets get it fixed or B) Tell him to pound sand.

Here we go with the broken record again. Thanks for all the bumps though to keep this one at the top.

And I'd like to correct you on something. You mentioned putting front O2 sensors in the rear location to help them respond faster.

The rear O2 sensors are the cat-monitoring sensors and they're turned off. The front O2 sensors monitor engine AFR for adjustment. You should know that, being a super tuner and all. Having headers on the car instead of thick manifolds reduces the temperature of the exhaust gases significantly (the headers just can't keep the heat in by the time they get to the O2 sensor). Therefore, instead of replacing the O2 sensors which VA Speed suggested, all that was needed was a change in the tune to expect slower responses from the O2 sensors.

Again, broken record.

Repeating myself again, just for you Phil.

I figure that if you repeat yourself enough times to the ignorant, they'll eventually get it.

Is that the car that had no oil pressure because the oil sender broke and broken pieces of the oil pressure sender were found in the oil pan? Just askin.

I was unaware that broken but not leaking oil pressure sensors cause no oil pressure.

Do you think he would drive it if it read 0 psi? Get real.

And the reason the pressure was low, from what I read, was because VA Speed didn't tune it, it was running pig rich and dumping excess fuel. VA Speed's response was "The tuner left in the middle of the tune. We don't have LT tuning equipment, nor plan on getting any."

Do you think that would have been pertinent information to give to the owner?

Fail thread of 2012. Its got it all, whining, slander, bitterness, "entitled" internet shoppers, boringly long irrelevant stories, blah, blah, blah....I suggest a conference call with all parties involved or everyone meet at the bike rack after school for a good 'ol fashion throw down :punch:

Still dont see the point in all this. Some of us probably knew it was going to happen eventually and now that is has.....whats the end goal here? We've all been short sided once or twice by a service, but at the level we're at now? Seriously? Live and learn.....move the fuck on.

NET RESULT: Lines are drawn, vendor camps are divided. Virginia Speed loses a few internet customers....Ed, maybe a few as well.

Last post of the day, got a busy day ahead of me
And we know you're Shawn's buddy, so you wanna just let it die or we going to keep this up all day?

Even by your admittance, it was tuned by them in the summer, and me in the winter. Even though it was no where near 30 deg. If you'd like I can get the exact conditions for you.
My point was the conditions had changed and so would the tuneup, we both know tunes can change from atmospheric conditions. I retuned a C6 Corvette that was orginally tuned in 90-100 degree temps in 35-38 degree temps and the fuel moved almost a full point.

Now, on to the knock issue. You said it would be more likely to knock in the heat, yet I had horrible knock in the cool whether, with only 18-19 degrees of timing max. How much timing should you be able to run in a header only LS2? You tune, surely you must know the answer to this. So, if we're in significantly cooler temps, and by your admittance it should be more prone to knock in the heat, when they tuned it, and we're only seeing 19 degrees, would you not think, AS A TUNER, something isn't right? I mean, if you've tuned a few of these things, you know what they take, what they average. If one comes in that for some reason won't take the norm (as far as timing) wouldn't you want to know why? Wouldn't you look further, or just bang some keys on the keyboard and kick it out the door?
Out of curiosity, what fixed the knocking? The seafoam treatment? I've had great luck with that.


Not only was it knocking AUDIBLY, but the recovery rate was so freekin high IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY RECOVER FROM THE KNOCK. That's the real kicker here. A key part of the protection was nearly completely disabled!!!
As I said before the knock sensor value change just doesn't make sense.

Now, combine that with a customer that says "yeah I track it on a road course" what would your approach be, AS A TUNER, PHIL?
I would make it an extremely safe tuneup. Probably put the A/F in the "excessively rich" 12.2 - 12.5 range and pull the timing a few degrees. My take would have been correct the knock values and add a few % of fuel down low.

I mean, if it's knocking so bad I can hear it, IN THE COOLER TEMPS, then how bad could it possibly be in the heat? How bad could it have been WHEN THEY TUNED IT? I mean, not only could I not get the PROPER amount of timing in it WITHOUT it knocking, IT WAS TO TUNED TO NEVER RECOVER ONCE IT DID KNOCK!!!
I follow your thinking and I dont know as I wasn't privy to either dyno session. Curious to find out what change was made to make it stop knocking and take 4-5 more degrees of timing.

As for how much power it made before and after, there is no magical amount per degree of timing, or per point of A/F ratio. I could care less what the difference is. It's not about the difference. It's about getting the proper amount of timing in it for the combo. Getting the A/F where it's SAFE for what HE'S USING THE CAR FOR, and most importantly RESTORING THE CAR'S "BUILT IN" DAMAGE CONTROL TO SOMETHING THAT WOULD ACTUALLY CONTROL DAMAGE IF THE NEED ARISES.
We both know the LS2s are not super sensitive on timing and I'm not debating about the built in damage control.

Maybe he should have waited until his pistons looked like the one in the picture before seeking a second opinion.

I was unaware that broken but not leaking oil pressure sensors cause no oil pressure.

Do you think he would drive it if it read 0 psi? Get real.

And the reason the pressure was low, from what I read, was because VA Speed didn't tune it, it was running pig rich and dumping excess fuel. VA Speed's response was "The tuner left in the middle of the tune. We don't have LT tuning equipment, nor plan on getting any."

Do you think that would have been pertinent information to give to the owner?

- I think the car is back in the shop
- the oil sender was broken and parts were found in the oil pan
- oil sender was replaced
- engine now has 60# of oil pressure

"The tuner left in the middle of the tune."
ahh F*** it.


Ok really I have work to do. I'll see you guys after work hours.

This looks bad for all parties involved, especially VA Speed. This needs to be resolved.

I never let anyone touch my car unless I have no other choice. Tuning is one of those things that I don't have any other choice until I learn to do it myself. I can’t even stand that my wife has a warranty because I would rather not listen to the bullshit dealerships make up because there mechanics are dumb.

If someone does not impress me the first time they will never touch my car again. Way too much money in my mind to risk, not to mention I have to drive it back and forth to work.

I spent $650.00 on a tune (I think they spent may be 1 or 2 hours on it), after I built the motor myself. I have no idea if it really makes that hp or tq, but it's been running 50k miles since so I can't complain too much. Runs great in the winter since it was tuned in the winter, but it surges, bucks, and dies with the A/C on. Does this mostly when it is warmer. I’m sure they would have fixed it but I don’t think I would have let them. The more I learn about tuning the more pissed I get about it.

He copied a tune from his personal car tweaked a little and called it good, then I payed $650.00 for it.

Point - First impressions are a bitch.

My story has nothing to do with Ed (kind of wish he had tuned my car back then), or VA speed, Although my tuner was in the Hampton/Newport News VA area when I lived there 4 years ago.)

I never let anyone touch my car unless I have no other choice. Tuning is one of those things that I don't have any other choice until I learn to do it myself. I can’t even stand that my wife has a warranty because I would rather not listen to the bullshit dealerships make up because there mechanics are dumb.

If someone does not impress me the first time they will never touch my car again. Way too much money in my mind to risk, not to mention I have to drive it back and forth to work.

I spent $650.00 on a tune (I think they spent may be 1 or 2 hours on it), after I built the motor myself. I have no idea if it really makes that hp or tq, but it's been running 50k miles since so I can't complain too much. Runs great in the winter since it was tuned in the winter, but it surges, bucks, and dies with the A/C on. Does this mostly when it is warmer. I’m sure they would have fixed it but I don’t think I would have let them. The more I learn about tuning the more pissed I get about it.

He copied a tune from his personal car tweaked a little and called it good, then I payed $650.00 for it.

Point - First impressions are a bitch.

My story has nothing to do with Ed (kind of wish he had tuned my car back then), or VA speed, Although my tuner was in the Hampton/Newport News VA area when I lived there 4 years ago.)

For some reason, people just can't get it through their head that I'm not going to let VA Speed mess with my car again. They had their first shot, and they basically removed damage control. Had I been on a track with a long straight such as VIR or Road Atlanta, my engine very well could have had a piston with a melted hole.

And like I've said before, I'm not going to have them retune it, then drag it back over to Ed to babysit them.

What's even more amusing is that the same people who constantly bitch about me not taking back there, are the guys that have literally spent tens of thousands of dollars in the shop. Talk about personal interest...

Very interesting thread from my perspective as an ex-professional tuner (I used to tune mainly imports for a living). I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in, not having any affiliation with any of the involved parties or any business to gain or lose. Here it is:

1. Knock control is a wonderful thing. Many times I would refuse to tune a car that didn't have a functional knock control system. I couldn't imagine essentially turning knock control off on a car that would be running on pump gas and do road course duty. That is insanely reckless.

2. Once I figured out what I was doing, none of my tunes changed with weather. Here is one extreme example: I tuned a car in 90 degree 90% humidity in south Florida. 2 years later, without touching anything, the car ran absolutely perfect in 30 degree low humidity weather in the high Sierra Nevadas. That was an open loop speed density tune on a tiny engine with huge fuel injectors.

3. I never solicited intraweb posts from my customers. I teamed up with a few different shops over the years and some of them ended poorly. I simply announced that I was no longer with that shop and made my new contact information available to customers. No need for telling people that they would get a bad tune if they went to that shop after I left or insisting that they gave me full public credit for doing my job and tuning their car the right way.

4. From my viewpoint, 99% of customers have no idea if they got a good tune or a shit tune. So, customer reviews of tunes are worthless. The only thing you can base your decision of who to use to tune your car on, if you don't know how to do it yourself, is factual results. How many cars that got tuned by this guy have holes in pistons soon after? How many cars that were tuned by this guy win races? How many are still running trouble free years later without being "touched up" every time the weather changes? How many stall out every time they pull up at a stop sign? Etc.

5. Based on #4, tune bash threads are pretty pointless. Customer has no idea what they got. They are just listening to a person they trust. There is every chance that if they go somewhere else and that tuner talks shit about the former saviors tune, there will not soon be another bash thread about the former savior. So, if your tuner is talking trash about what was in there when he got it, take that with a grain of salt. A real professional should be very hesitant to talk shit or even provide any opinion about another persons work.

Once again, this is all just my opinion based on what I feel is a unique viewpoint here. Take it for what it is worth to you.

As a driver, not a tuner, I can agree that many of us customers probably don't know the quality of our tune until its too late. Fortunately, with todays technology we have CEL, error codes, and DIC messages (Corvettes) that we can read and look up. We can also look for signs of excessive richness (smell and exhaust tips) and can hear knock and feel how the car performs under normal driving and performance conditions that may bring the tune into question.

Couple that with being associated with a number of other drivers, in person and via the forums, that work with a variety of shops and tuners, you learn - as you said - which cars are running reliably over time vs. those that have lost engines or have serious drivability issues, which were later attributed to the tune. Reputation is everything and is built upon quality work, customer service, technical knowledge, experience and reasonable prices.

Shawn is a fine engine builder, but I would not want him tuning my engine. So, if you don't have a qualified tuner on staff with the requisite technical tuning knowledge and experience and use of the tuning software - tell your customers! Either outsource the dyno and street tuning to someone that specializes in that field, or partner with a reputable tuner that can visit your shop and do it right. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's gotta know his limitations."

As for the people saying " you should have pm'd VA, I say no. I'm glad he made this thread so others in the community know. Shipping errors and mixed up parts are different than shitty workmanship.

Oh, Ive had my knock sensors turned off for years pussies! Lol

If a shop says there going to "tune" a car then why does it get brought up "well hes a master engine builder, not a tuner"? Then why the F*** is he tuning. Don't get me wrong as a person Shawn is a pretty good guy, he lives two houses down from me. But Va Speed as a shop has quality issues and the owner, well, I wont tell you what the owner is.

Oh and here is our Virginia forum and the thread about Sonny's car. These our local guys who won't TOUCH that shop.
http://www.vadriven.com/forums/vendor-reviews-57/virginia-speed-%3D-extra-special-motor-424681/

Enjoy.

Exactly what I was going to say.

I have met Shawn before, been to the shop many times, and had some work done there before. Luckily, I haven't had issues like were brought up in these threads (my problems were very minor in comparison to these), but I was there a few years ago, so I don't know what has changed.

Very interesting thread from my perspective as an ex-professional tuner (I used to tune mainly imports for a living). I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in, not having any affiliation with any of the involved parties or any business to gain or lose. Here it is:

1. Knock control is a wonderful thing. Many times I would refuse to tune a car that didn't have a functional knock control system. I couldn't imagine essentially turning knock control off on a car that would be running on pump gas and do road course duty. That is insanely reckless.

2. Once I figured out what I was doing, none of my tunes changed with weather. Here is one extreme example: I tuned a car in 90 degree 90% humidity in south Florida. 2 years later, without touching anything, the car ran absolutely perfect in 30 degree low humidity weather in the high Sierra Nevadas. That was an open loop speed density tune on a tiny engine with huge fuel injectors.

3. I never solicited intraweb posts from my customers. I teamed up with a few different shops over the years and some of them ended poorly. I simply announced that I was no longer with that shop and made my new contact information available to customers. No need for telling people that they would get a bad tune if they went to that shop after I left or insisting that they gave me full public credit for doing my job and tuning their car the right way.

4. From my viewpoint, 99% of customers have no idea if they got a good tune or a shit tune. So, customer reviews of tunes are worthless. The only thing you can base your decision of who to use to tune your car on, if you don't know how to do it yourself, is factual results. How many cars that got tuned by this guy have holes in pistons soon after? How many cars that were tuned by this guy win races? How many are still running trouble free years later without being "touched up" every time the weather changes? How many stall out every time they pull up at a stop sign? Etc.

5. Based on #4, tune bash threads are pretty pointless. Customer has no idea what they got. They are just listening to a person they trust. There is every chance that if they go somewhere else and that tuner talks shit about the former saviors tune, there will not soon be another bash thread about the former savior. So, if your tuner is talking trash about what was in there when he got it, take that with a grain of salt. A real professional should be very hesitant to talk shit or even provide any opinion about another persons work.

Once again, this is all just my opinion based on what I feel is a unique viewpoint here. Take it for what it is worth to you.

Very nicely said.

well one things for sure if the shop in question can't post up and atleast admit they screwed up then they need to close the door's now because nobody will be able to trust them.

We've all been short sided once or twice by a service, but at the level we're at now? Seriously? Live and learn.....move the fuck on.

x2

I don't think VA Speed is going to reply in here so I'm not watching this thread anymore either.

Frankly, I don't care if Virginia Speed choses not to respond.... I only care to know what resolution, if any, was made between this shop and the OP (and others) to help resolve the problems caused by the shop, which I'm sure the OP will share with us. I predict zero positive response...just another 'lesson learned' shared on this and other forums, which will help future potential customers look elsewhere for quality work and customer service. Good luck OP.

Frankly, I don't care if Virginia Speed choses not to respond.... I only care to know what resolution, if any, was made between this shop and the OP (and others) to help resolve the problems caused by the shop, which I'm sure the OP will share with us. I predict zero positive response...just another 'lesson learned' shared on this and other forums, which will help future potential customers look elsewhere for quality work and customer service. Good luck OP.

Shawn never called today. I didn't have time to call him unfortunately. That whole work thing got in the way in the afternoon.

Oh so many years without knock sensors. How did cars run without them? I know the op woukd not go carb but I did with no problems for 2 years. Now another camaro and efi. And so many doctors that haven't gone to med school for tuning cars.

- I think the car is back in the shop
- the oil sender was broken and parts were found in the oil pan
- oil sender was replaced
- engine now has 60# of oil pressure

"The tuner left in the middle of the tune."
ahh F*** it.


Ok really I have work to do. I'll see you guys after work hours.

Phil, you respond as if you're there. You defend them like you're part of the business. You only know what they tell you. You don't know half of what you think you do, on many levels.

Sonny's car, far worse than just a broken sensor. It didn't just go back for an oil pressure problem. You want me to elaborate? Cut ground wires just hanging there. Vacuum ports wide open. A vacuum line that went through 2 check valves, facing opposite directions, then going to the fuel pressure reg. An Opti vacuum line that was cut and duct taped back together. Seriously. You want FACTS? I've got pictures. You want to know why I couldn't tune it? It was a mess. Not just kind of. It was a total mess.

You only know what they tell you. You're blind. You don't know half of what you think you know, on many, many levels.

As I said before, you need to just stop. You aren't making it any better for them. You will do nothing but make it worse.

You come in here and make false allegations towards me. About a couple different things. Both of which you are clueless on. You're drinking the Va Speed Koolaid. If you'd like me to elaborate I will.

Dear thread, you turned into a piece of hairy man balls. Love, dubz

I don't understand how anyone can defend the shit that va speed pulls..You get quoted a price before the work is done and then when you pick up your car it's like 1000.00 more and the work is not even completed..the only reason i went to va speed was because of ed..I swear they are some of the most incompetent techs and im not joking..When i went to pick up my car they had a tech replacing a clutch on another GTO and he kept asking ED questions on how do a clutch install...The same idiot that left my motor mount loose,routed the wire harnesss wrong and caused a false overheating alarm,put the wrong valve covers on and left the strut brace off.Never again will i take my car to them.I can work on my own car i just can't tune it,so i will leave the tuning part of it to ED..

Lets make sure that anyone posting in this thread is talking about their car only!! Otherwise it's bashing and it is NOT allowed.

Thanks

Maybe this is off topic..but then again, maybe not.

A couple years ago my neighbors with whom we were good friends went through a rather nasty and acrimonious divorce after what seemed to be the perfect marraige. Both of them approached me with complaints and accusations about the other. I told them both from the start that I liked and respected both of them but that sometimes things just don't work out and I wasn't going to choose a side. I encouraged both of them to accept things for what they are and just move on.

They continued their personal assaults on each other until it just wasn't fun to be around either of them. It's really a shame. They are both good people who just couldn't let go.

Yeah I saw that movie too! War of the Roses right? Great movie. You were the lawyer in the movie? :D
Great ending.

Fail thread of 2012. Its got it all, whining, slander, bitterness, "entitled" internet shoppers, boringly long irrelevant stories, blah, blah, blah....I suggest a conference call with all parties involved or everyone meet at the bike rack after school for a good 'ol fashion throw down :punch:

Still dont see the point in all this. Some of us probably knew it was going to happen eventually and now that is has.....whats the end goal here? We've all been short sided once or twice by a service, but at the level we're at now? Seriously? Live and learn.....move the fuck on.



Sounds like a great idea except the customers that that lost their motors or got shoddy work could end up getting an ass beating at the bike rack too.
In all fairness, I consider getting short-sided by a service giving me cold french fries or forgetting to put tomato on my chicken sandwich.
If a business short-sides me to the extent that my motor breaks or I have to spend even a half day with another business correcting their mistakes at MY expense then I would be right where the folks in here complaining are.

I think this thread was very helpful and I appreciate the OP posting this.....now I know if I ever need anything to avoid VA speed.....probably would have went with vengeance anyways but now I am certain that I wont ever be buying from them as I'm sure a few others wont either....whether it affects their business or not I could care less BC ill be getting whatever I need from somewhere that has quality parts and services wherever it may be

Fail thread of 2012. Its got it all, whining, slander, bitterness, "entitled" internet shoppers, boringly long irrelevant stories, blah, blah, blah....I suggest a conference call with all parties involved or everyone meet at the bike rack after school for a good 'ol fashion throw down :punch:

Still dont see the point in all this. Some of us probably knew it was going to happen eventually and now that is has.....whats the end goal here? We've all been short sided once or twice by a service, but at the level we're at now? Seriously? Live and learn.....move the fuck on.

NET RESULT: Lines are drawn, vendor camps are divided. Virginia Speed loses a few internet customers....Ed, maybe a few as well.

yo big boy :secret2:

800hp by 6500rpm

thats what your engine did right ?

you keep thinking that

like someone asked you on the bullet-why did you guys stop @ 6500rpm when your making 800hp..........................................

what i never understood was why shawn never came in and chime in that thread on the bullet

he knows that he would have got shot down with-in a few minutes

here is the thread........................

post 33 starts it off and its all down hill.....

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=426853&page=3&highlight=bmep

:corn: + :chug:

i am sure i got some more saved threads on va speed......hmm...maybe later

Quote:
Originally Posted by OVRKILL
Lol...why the hate? You mentioned yourself you werent familar with ITB's (especially this one).....but did concede the heads and this intake were better than compared to Brian's build. Dyno numbers should have indicated that. A FAST intake on these cubes is a huge restriction and wont fill the cylinders like 8 individual loooong runners will as long as the heads will support. FWIW, these heads are about 100cfm over the compared to cathedrals....

My point in there somewhere is that without knowing/understanding the variables you're not making a fair comparison. You might want (or have) to accept this is a really efficient combo and by your own sig....change your theory.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I made a fair comparison. And as it stands... Your dyno numbers are bogus to me.

A 100cfm better head? so they flow 450 @ your maximum cam lift?

You are claiming 100 more horsepower at just 100 rpm higher peak number..... Dude... No matter how bad you wanna believe it... Some things in life are not mathmatically possible.

Again... You are claiming your engine makes more torque at Peak horsepower than Brians engine did at Peak Torque. You really cant wrap your head around extrodinary of a claim it is can you?

Your engine would kick BES/SAM/ and Jon Kaase's ass at EMC. Next year..... When the competition happens.... Pull that engine and enter it. Your a shoe in for first place.

When you looked at the numbers i posted for the 417ci Hemi... Did you notice that not even it has more torque/higher BMEP at peak horsepower than Brians did at peak torque?

The Koolaid Shawn got you to drink must be some really strong stuff.

Hell im trying to figure out why ya stopped pulling it at 6500.... Considering its such a wonder engibe and all ya should spun it to 8000..... Given how it made 100 hp more at just 100 rpm more... I bet the thing woulda made 1000 hp there.

For everyone trying to throw Ed under the bus, back in the spring of 2010, I called up VA Speed and talked to Ed extensively about doing a new heads/cam setup. I ended up going with the PI(Mast) heads, and a cam that Ed thought would work well.

Ed helped me out after the sale quite a bit both on the phone and through PM's here and private emails. He even helped me out on my tune and did it all for free. Never once did he ask me for a thread, or ask for money, and I did offer to paypal him for his time and help.

Granted, I data logged, and sent him my tune file and data, but we spoke in private emails quite a bit and together my car ran beautifully.

If that's not being a true professional, I don't know what is.

When I heard he left Va Speed, I was a little confused, and figured I'd never hear the truth about why he left, so I never asked.

Fact is, even an engine built by the hand of God won't last with a crappy install and a hack job of a tune.

For everyone trying to throw Ed under the bus, back in the spring of 2010, I called up VA Speed and talked to Ed extensively about doing a new heads/cam setup. I ended up going with the PI(Mast) heads, and a cam that Ed thought would work well.

Ed helped me out after the sale quite a bit both on the phone and through PM's here and private emails. He even helped me out on my tune and did it all for free. Never once did he ask me for a thread, or ask for money, and I did offer to paypal him for his time and help.

Granted, I data logged, and sent him my tune file and data, but we spoke in private emails quite a bit and together my car ran beautifully.

If that's not being a true professional, I don't know what is.

When I heard he left Va Speed, I was a little confused, and figured I'd never hear the truth about why he left, so I never asked.

Fact is, even an engine built by the hand of God won't last with a crappy install and a hack job of a tune.

you can tell ed went on his own way has he was sick of the junk coming out of that shop.................

i really love to see the can of worms open up................and i think heaps more will come out and speak out........................................

credit to the op for coming out and sharing his story with facts....

vaspeed not coming in and replying just says-YUP WE GOT CAUGHT AGAIN AND HAVE RAN OUT OF LIES

yo big boy :secret2:

i am sure i got some more saved threads on va speed......hmm...maybe later

Well, well, well....:eyes:

I hope everyone reading this garbage takes a few minutes here by adding up the number of trolls that are conveniently showing up to pile on to VaSpeed. Coincidence? Don't think so. Make no mistake folks, this is a full court press to discredit them on every level.

Now what I wonder who is behind it all.....:secret:

so people with facts or honest questions are trolls now

you keep thinking that you make 803 hp by 6500rpm

i am crazy or am i the only one asking the question

is it even possible to make that power na at those rpms ?

like people asked you on the bullet why stop at 6500rpm when you can make more hp.........

keep drinking the koolaid son..................

the next cam should net you 50hp more and the cam after that should yeild you 50hp more.....................................

soon everyone will have a 800-900hp pumpgas daily driver that makes all this power by 6500rpm

Well, well, well....:eyes:

I hope everyone reading this garbage takes a few minutes here by adding up the number of trolls that are conveniently showing up to pile on to VaSpeed. Coincidence? Don't think so. Make no mistake folks, this is a full court press to discredit them on every level.

Now what I wonder who is behind it all.....:secret:

Do you have proof or is this just more pure speculation?

facts

http://ls1tech.com/forums/14011718-post1.html

70 more hp then you with a soild cam and 1300 more rpm...................

Like I said, the best built motor, installed incorrectly, ie bolts not tightened properly, missing grounds, incorrect vacuum lines, or tuned poorly will grenade just as quickly as a motor built by a group of highschool kids as a project motor.

The difference is the highschool kids spent a grand or two, and the super duper no dollar spared motor cost $20,000+.

Which would you rather have?

Well, well, well....:eyes:

I hope everyone reading this garbage takes a few minutes here by adding up the number of trolls that are conveniently showing up to pile on to VaSpeed. Coincidence? Don't think so. Make no mistake folks, this is a full court press to discredit them on every level.

Now what I wonder who is behind it all.....:secret:

Brent: I have no bone to pick w/you. However, this negative thread and others have every right to exist just as your thread showing off the good work they have done for you. Frankly the way paying sponsors negative feedback threads get removed around here and CF I'm surprised this thread has lasted this long.

If there are inaccuracies from the OP or the other people chiming in, Shawn and Va Speed will post up their side and readers can judge for themselves.

I do agree that anyone having issues with work done by any shop or person should first try and work it out privately. Unless of course it happens to be a complete con job (I'm not commenting on anything or anyone specifically).

I had my own issue w/Shawn and Va Speed in my limited dealings with them. I wrote them an email detailing my issues. After some back and forth we came to a place that allowed us both to move on as amicably as possible. Thus, no thread necessary. :)

I had my own issue w/Shawn and Va Speed in my limited dealings with them. I wrote them an email detailing my issues. After some back and forth we came to a place that allowed us both to move on as amicably as possible. Thus, no thread necessary. :)

This is the only real issue that I have. WHY should you of had to email them in the first place? This happens alot with this shop... :punch:

you keep thinking that you make 803 hp by 6500rpm

i am crazy or am i the only one asking the question

is it even possible to make that power na at those rpms ?

Your question is easy to answer.
Most people that have the understanding on what you're referring to don't give a hoot what's posted on the Interwebz. Therefore they don't respond.

Your question is easy to answer.

Most people that have the understanding on what you're referring to don't give a hoot what's posted on the Interwebz. Therefore they don't respond.

Or they give a hoot and are bound by other reasons not to say anything or get involved....especially knowing most people reading these forums don't understand that engines DO have their limitations (especially in regards to torque output which is really what we are always measuring anyway) and any negativity in the form of questioning results might not be viewed kindly upon.

It just makes more sense (most of the time) to slowly shake your head, bite your typing finger, and look at the next thread of interest although the spread of questionable information is bothersome as it detracts from other results guys reading this stuff wanting to learn might run into.

Frank Baba., to answer/address your question....

On a properly calibrated engine dyno is a 460 cubic inch "wedge style" engine (say 12 to 1 CR) able to generate 800 HP @ 6500 RPMS and 699 ft/lbs of peak torque?? IMO thats a big NO because the torque output per cubic inch (and the subsequent BMEP numbers derived from that data) simply wont happen in a normally aspirated situation.....it would require alot more cubes and/or compression to make that happen or a completely different engine design (four valves per cylinder etc.). BES's winning EMC entry (which walked away from every competitor in a fiercely competitive environment) wasn't even making that type of torque output per cube and BMEP figures and he had a huge advantage with a modern hemi-style cylinder head (much more airflow potential with a straight shot into and out of the combustion chamber), not to mention probably invested a few thousand man hours in the combination from start to finish.

Thing is just like some flow benches read high and some read low its no different with dyno's....any flowbench and any dyno can spit out a number. The real question is will the car run the number at the track that the dyno and weight of the vehicle in question make mathematically possible?? That's why I always tell folks to back up dyno numbers with trap speeds (when possible) before shooting their mouth off! :lol: (the sharper guys questioning the results will immediately ask about them anyway!). Trap speeds, in lieu of other independent dyno testing, will either validate (or un-validate) dyno numbers and tell you what's really going on.....the beauty of that situation is that ET and spinning tires don't matter. The bulk of your potential trap speed will always be there even if your spinning to the 660 marker (your ET will suffer greatly however).

Anyway....while this thread started as an obvious customer service related issue (that has gone completely out of control I would add), I do hope that both parties come to some resolution and move on with their lives. I decided to post and stick my head in the hornets nest because there was some technical discussion of late that brought out an issue I have been reserved about for some time.

I'm passionate about this industry and the physics/mathematics that drive it....while we always continue to push the envelope (its the nature of the hobby), there are walls and limitations....the more you learn about how all this works, the more its easier to understand that.

-Tony

tony thanks for taking time to answer.................

also bes won last year with a ford sc1 engine /head

the hemi was 2010............................

Or they give a hoot and are bound by other reasons not to say anything or get involved....especially knowing most people reading these forums don't understand that engines DO have their limitations (especially in regards to torque output which is really what we are always measuring anyway) and any negativity in the form of questioning results might not be viewed kindly upon.

It just makes more sense (most of the time) to slowly shake your head, bite your typing finger, and look at the next thread of interest although the spread of questionable information is bothersome as it detracts from other results guys reading this stuff wanting to learn might run into.

You're quoting me without realizing I'm not someone interested in anything you have to say.

Or they give a hoot and are bound by other reasons not to say anything or get involved....especially knowing most people reading these forums don't understand that engines DO have their limitations (especially in regards to torque output which is really what we are always measuring anyway) and any negativity in the form of questioning results might not be viewed kindly upon.

It just makes more sense (most of the time) to slowly shake your head, bite your typing finger, and look at the next thread of interest although the spread of questionable information is bothersome as it detracts from other results guys reading this stuff wanting to learn might run into.

Frank Baba., to answer/address your question....

On a properly calibrated engine dyno is a 460 cubic inch "wedge style" engine (say 12 to 1 CR) able to generate 800 HP @ 6500 RPMS and 699 ft/lbs of peak torque?? IMO thats a big NO because the torque output per cubic inch (and the subsequent BMEP numbers derived from that data) simply wont happen in a normally aspirated situation.....it would require alot more cubes and/or compression to make that happen or a completely different engine design (four valves per cylinder etc.). BES's winning EMC entry (which walked away from every competitor in a fiercely competitive environment) wasn't even making that type of torque output per cube and BMEP figures and he had a huge advantage with a modern hemi-style cylinder head (much more airflow potential with a straight shot into and out of the combustion chamber), not to mention probably invested a few thousand man hours in the combination from start to finish.

Thing is just like some flow benches read high and some read low its no different with dyno's....any flowbench and any dyno can spit out a number. The real question is will the car run the number at the track that the dyno and weight of the vehicle in question make mathematically possible?? That's why I always tell folks to back up dyno numbers with trap speeds (when possible) before shooting their mouth off! :lol: (the sharper guys questioning the results will immediately ask about them anyway!). Trap speeds, in lieu of other independent dyno testing, will either validate (or un-validate) dyno numbers and tell you what's really going on.....the beauty of that situation is that ET and spinning tires don't matter. The bulk of your potential trap speed will always be there even if your spinning to the 660 marker (your ET will suffer greatly however).

Anyway....while this thread started as an obvious customer service related issue (that has gone completely out of control I would add), I do hope that both parties come to some resolution and move on with their lives. I decided to post and stick my head in the hornets nest because there was some technical discussion of late that brought out an issue I have been reserved about for some time.

I'm passionate about this industry and the physics/mathematics that drive it....while we always continue to push the envelope (its the nature of the hobby), there are walls and limitations....the more you learn about how all this works, the more its easier to understand that.

-Tony

Wow!! That's about the nicest, most technically supported way to tell someone they're full of shit that I've ever seen!! :nutkick:

Hey Phil, you ever going to apologize to me, or do I need to just keep bumping this thread out of spite? I mean Shawn must really be thankful to you for coming in here and blaming me for this, and throwing around the unfounded allegations they're too skeered to.

How bout I just keep posting more factual ugliness until you apologize? Standing by. Ready with pictures, and docs, and emails, and on, and on.

:punch:

Fact of the matter is perception is reality. You spoke with a VA Speed customer and offered to look at this tune and fix it(for free is what I am hearing) in exchange for a thread that states you fixed Virginia speed's bad tuning. This is not 2nd hand information. I didn't tape the conversation but I remember hearing that you would not tune it unless you had a "fixed the tune" thread. There is no reason why you didn't retune it besides the owner would not put up a thread you wanted. I've retuned more than a handful of local cars and I've never once asked for a thread stating I tweaked or fixed anyones tune.

Secondly the OP posted a comment over on Corvetteforum basically taking a shot at the reliability of a Virginia Speed engine. "Being on my 3rd engine" The comment was exactly what I was told to be in the infamous email months ago warning current virginia speed customers reguarding Virginia Speeds inability to build a engine that lasted. Kinda concindental that the same comment I was heard about many months ago surfaces from a customer that you tune for.

It just makes more sense (most of the time) to slowly shake your head, bite your typing finger, and look at the next thread of interest although the spread of questionable information is bothersome as it detracts from other results guys reading this stuff wanting to learn might run into.

-Tony

Agreed.

Would love to see this 700 ft/lb pump gas 460 on a proper dyno. :D

Fact of the matter is perception is reality. You spoke with a VA Speed customer and offered to look at this tune and fix it(for free is what I am hearing) in exchange for a thread that states you fixed Virginia speed's bad tuning. This is not 2nd hand information. I didn't tape the conversation but I remember hearing that you would not tune it unless you had a "fixed the tune" thread. There is no reason why you didn't retune it besides the owner would not put up a thread you wanted. I've retuned more than a handful of local cars and I've never once asked for a thread stating I tweaked or fixed anyones tune.


Perhaps you didn't read the chain of emails?

Let's review the facts:

1: Customer posted, less than truthful that car in question "drove great in traffic"

2: Customer contacts ME and asks me to fix tune.

3: I explain I don't want to fix their tune without it being known publicly, based solely on the fact that what was first posted was less than truthful.

4: I posted the entire email chain as evidence.

And besides, I'm more referring to this thread, and Sonny's thread, and Mike's thread, and your insinuation of email list hacking.

It's OK, we'll play it your way. You keep going on perception, and I'll keep posting facts, supported by concrete evidence.


Secondly the OP posted a comment over on Corvetteforum basically taking a shot at the reliability of a Virginia Speed engine. "Being on my 3rd engine" The comment was exactly what I was told to be in the infamous email months ago warning current virginia speed customers reguarding Virginia Speeds inability to build a engine that lasted. Kinda concindental that the same comment I was heard about many months ago surfaces from a customer that you tune for.

I don't think I need to tell anyone about their quality of work or engine reliability issues. There's enough information available publicly for one to make their own opinion.

you can tell ed went on his own way has he was sick of the junk coming out of that shop.................

i really love to see the can of worms open up................and i think heaps more will come out and speak out........................................

credit to the op for coming out and sharing his story with facts....

vaspeed not coming in and replying just says-YUP WE GOT CAUGHT AGAIN AND HAVE RAN OUT OF LIES

No one really knows the story behind Ed leaving Virginia Speed except Virginia Speed & Ed, that story I am sure has 3 sides. The only facts I know

- Ed ran a shop before virginia speed, when times got tight he became an employee of Virginia speed
- AFAIK and saw there was no anomisity while the team worked together
- Ed was their "go-to" tuner
- I vaguely remember bits and pieces of a story where Ed left on personal business for about a month to go to China during that time they had no dedicated tuner(this fits into a timeline of another V/S customers build where the "Tuner left" and no tuning software was available)
- I heard/saw things online that Ed wanted to expand his tuning business but I dont think it was under the virginia speed banner which caused a conflict of interest between the 2 parties.
- Shortly there after the parties split

There is no doubt that Ed has a ton of experience and a great tuner on the HPT and EFI platforms, Shawn also has at ton of experience tuning engines with the engine dyno and aftermarket ECUs. The sole difference is the tuning software. IMO Ed and Shawn are great tuners when it comes to making power, the late model EFI systems is a complex animal that takes time to master and when faced with an employee leaving, you can't just turn away customers so I assume Shawn stepped up and tuned the car.

As far as Virginia Speed replys, the OP did not give the Vendor(I dont care who it is) the courtesy of a phone call before they posted this, why do they deserve the same courtesy in return?

I've talked to shawn on a weekly basis for the last 5 years or so and we talked about this situtation for a brief second a couple days ago and I asked the ONLY question I cared about which was the "knock sensors". His reply was "Phil, you've known me for 5 years now, do you really think I would do some dumb shit like that, it either had to be in the base tune or a keystoke error, I've never changed that portion of a tuneup". I've seen his tuning first hand when we go to the track, he is slow and methodical.

Like I said you almost have to be a genius to get the tune correct on these computers. The fuel, timing tables are unbelievable along with all the sub categories. Tranny shift points vs rpm tire diameter. Hat's off to those who can do it.

No one really knows the story behind Ed leaving Virginia Speed except Virginia Speed & Ed, that story I am sure has 3 sides. The only facts I know

- Ed ran a shop before virginia speed, when times got tight he became an employee of Virginia speed
- AFAIK and saw there was no anomisity while the team worked together
- Ed was their "go-to" tuner
- I vaguely remember bits and pieces of a story where Ed left on personal business for about a month to go to China during that time they had no dedicated tuner(this fits into a timeline of another V/S customers build where the "Tuner left" and no tuning software was available)
- I heard/saw things online that Ed wanted to expand his tuning business but I dont think it was under the virginia speed banner which caused a conflict of interest between the 2 parties.
- Shortly there after the parties split


See, you don't even know the real story, even their side of the real story, yet you stick your nose in it like you do.

I didn't leave on personal business to China, I put in a fell two weeks notice, worked it and left. China was a completely different matter.

See, you don't even know the real story, even their side of the real story, yet you stick your nose in it like you do.

I didn't leave on personal business to China, I put in a fell two weeks notice, worked it and left. China was a completely different matter.I am not sure why he is concerned about what you do. You made a change. We all do.

I am not sure why he is concerned about what you do. You made a change. We all do.

It's a soap opera. Bottom line is, he thinks I'm orchestrating this, or at least behind the scenes perpetuating it. I'm not, and I'm pissed about being blamed for something I'm not doing. Va Speed accused me of doing things that I didn't do, and now Phil is.

It's a soap opera. Bottom line is, he thinks I'm orchestrating this, or at least behind the scenes perpetuating it. I'm not, and I'm pissed about being blamed for something I'm not doing. Va Speed accused me of doing things that I didn't do, and now Phil is.

I went in and quit my job for something I thought was better. My employer yelled at me and said I paid you through the winter when all I got paid was what I worked for. They lost a good employee. You have moved on and so should they. Seemingly they were not prepared. It happens.

You have moved on and so should they. Seemingly they were not prepared. It happens.

It's way deeper than that. Like, if I posted it all, it would be like..... :eek2:

I'm guessing you fall into the 3 category of employees. Those who recognize what's wrong, try to fix it, but then had enough and got out. I'm sure there are a lot of details, but at this point, it's water under the bridge.

As far as Virginia Speed replys, the OP did not give the Vendor(I dont care who it is) the courtesy of a phone call before they posted this, why do they deserve the same courtesy in return?

Here we go again with this broken record...

I've talked to shawn on a weekly basis for the last 5 years or so and we talked about this situtation for a brief second a couple days ago and I asked the ONLY question I cared about which was the "knock sensors". His reply was "Phil, you've known me for 5 years now, do you really think I would do some dumb shit like that, it either had to be in the base tune or a keystoke error, I've never changed that portion of a tuneup". I've seen his tuning first hand when we go to the track, he is slow and methodical.


When I talked to Shawn, he told me he wasn't the one who tuned it. Prior to the conversation, it was under the assumption that Shawn had tuned it.

But your posts makes it look like he did. So which one is it?

Regardless, I want to know why it was sent out the door the way it was. This is also confirmation that Shawn has indeed read this thread, and won't reply here, nor call me back. Shawn, I will be calling you tomorrow to discuss this.

I talked to VA Speed today. I'm going to wait for a reply from them. Stay tuned.

I've talked with VA Speed 3 times now. Apparently Shawn is too busy to talk, so I've been talking with Shannon. First off, she's obviously VERY pissed off about this thread. Secondly she has a hard time letting me talk, often talking over me and interrupting me. She doesn't understand cars, by her own admittance so when I talk about the tune she doesn't understand. When I explained what kind of damage spark knock causes, she had no clue what I was talking about.

Anyways, to the meat and potatoes. I talked with Shannon on Monday. She asked for the tune file that Ed pulled off my car before he made any changes. I sent that to her almost immediately. I also asked for their tune file. I've been waiting now for 2 days for this tune file. I called her today and asked for it. She says the guys are busy and can't send it to me until they get to her request to look at it and send it. So I asked "I'm under the assumption now that I have to wait for your file when I sent what you asked for upon request?" Her reply was "That is a correct assumption." I then pleaded with here for just 10 minutes of their time to send it to me. All of us know good and well that a file can be send in less than 2 minutes.

I'd also like to point out another quote from Shannon: "We have a good idea where this is all coming from." Really Shannon? Don't even begin to hint about Ed insinuating any of this. This has nothing to do with him or you.

And a second quote: "How do we know Ed didn't just change it so he could get money he needed via another tune and make us look bad?" Please. My car isn't anything special. He even said if it wasn't for the knock recovery table, I would have been fine, although not ideal by any means.

All I can assume right now is that VA Speed is trying to come up with a good story to tell me, along with making the files different in order to cover their tracks.

I don't think this is a company ANYBODY should be dealing with, EVER.

Shannon,

Over the last few weeks I have learned an abundance of information regarding tuning via HPTuners forum and also talking with Ed. This has been quite an experience, to say the least. I've learned quite a bit about cars. First, here is Shawn's reply in full. Below that, you will find my replies to his statement.



Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage. The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine. To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false. Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this. There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.

The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out. A tune that is tuned to the very edge and then the knock sensors are relied upon to pull timing out during heat soak or extreme hot day is just not correct,in my opinion. What happens if you have a knock sensor failure? The check engine light doesn’t always pop on what there is a failure with systems in the ecu, sensor,wiring. So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net. The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out. It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.

Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know. This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.

Shawn Miller
Virginia Speed Inc.
757-468-5101


(To clarify the Red text is Shawn, the Blue text is me)


Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage.


That's the root of the problem right there. There are problems with the tune that could INDEED cause engine damage.


To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false.


No, this comment is just false. I'm not sure why he thinks having the ECU put in timing unbelievably fast after a knock event occurs is a good thing.



Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this.


I agree. If the tuners at VA Speed understood the function of the table in question, you would not make such an idiotic statement. But please, Shawn, school me.


The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out.


Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Now we're seeing just how much experience you have with the later model PCMs. Had you had more experience with them, you'd know that from the factory, the knock sensors are so sensitive, that virtually ALL of them have some amount of knock retard even running 93 octane pump gas. So, does that mean they are "tuned improperly" from GM? We'll revisit this comment a bit later.


The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out.


This is where you are dead wrong, and potentially engine damaging dead wrong. The timing is not put back "fast in the absence of further knock". It is put back AFTER KNOCK HAS BEEN DETECTED AND TIMING IS PULLED. The PCM does not wait until it is no longer knocking. It begins to add the timing back at the rate specified in the knock retard recovery rate table. Don't go by the table definition. Go by EXPERIENCE, WHICH I KNOW YOU LACK. If you look at a data log of knock retard, you can see the timing is added back immediately after the knock occurs. How quickly it is restored is dependent on the recovery rate table. Again, the operation of this parameter is obvious in a data log. You need to completely disregard the table explanation, and look at a log. The table explanations aren't always right.

This is the root cause of the issues with my car. It was knocking audibly. Had the KR recovery rate table not been jacked up so high, the knock would not have been audible. Even if it were suffering from KR, it most likely would not have been audible. The reason it was audible is because the PCM was restoring the timing, faster than it could pull it back out. It resulted in uncontrollable knock. Surely we all know by being in the automotive field that knock isn't good for anything in the motor.



So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net.


I know you don't understand this, but VA Speed effectively disabled the knock retard.


The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine.


Apparently not if it was audibly knocking, and had no signs of ceasing. Again, the ECU was putting the timing back in so fast the engine couldn't recover from knock.



It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.


This almost not even worth responding to, but I will. To compare a street driven production car to a race car is idiotic. I guess since NASCAR cars don't have tread on their tires, we don't need that either, by your assessment? These production cars have hypereutectic pistons, and tight ring end gaps. A NASCAR engine has forged pistons, and low drag rings, with who knows what for a ring end gap. Production cars have to run on a variety of fuels. NASCAR engines run on tightly controlled quality fuel.

The piston issue is the real biggie here. No comparison in how a forged piston will tolerate detonation compared to a production hypereutectic. Again, I would have thought a professional engine builder would have understood this. So much for that.


Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know.


The "dyno number" was never in question. It was also not the purpose of retuning. At first the purpose of retuning was to get rid of the hacked PE table, and dial in the MAF table correctly.


As for conditions, yeah, it should have been worse conditions, which leads to my next question. If it was knocking as bad as it was in the cool weather, how bad could it have been in the heat when you tuned it? I wasn't there to witness the run.

This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.

I agree with this completely. This is also why they don't setup knock retard recovery rate table 180 times what the originally are. Because "you are just guessing at what will happen".

Look, fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in a OE calibration that should be jacked by 180 times. NOTHING! especially a "safety net" such as knock retard recovery. This isn't an arguable "method" of tuning. It is common sense.


There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.


While there is SOME debate on different techniques, there is little debate on how to interpret hard data. There is also little to debate over the disabling of certain systems in a PCM. In this case, we're not talking about the "technique" of hacking a PE table, as opposed to using proper math to achieve an A/F ratio. That is a debated subject, although it is widely accepted that the "correct" way to do it is the MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT way of commanding the desired A/F through PE, and not hacking it. No, in this case, we're talking about something as critical to engine health as timing, or too much timing, or no knock sensors, or too low of an octane rating.


Now, as far as technique, and quality of tuning, etc. there is plenty to pick apart in this tune. I have refrained from doing so, because none of it was critical. It was and is a shoddy tune, but NONE of it was critical to the life of the engine except for the KR table. The PE was hacked, the MAF was left to stock, the fan temps hadn't been changed, the skip shift wasn't removed,the O2 sensors weren't turned off initially, there's a big block of timing right at the top, just to give a "dyno number". Also, bad advice was given to me to change the upstream O2 sensors. Had the tuner known how O2 sensors worked with headers, he would have known that the parameters for expected latency in the O2 sensors would have to have been changed. Not changing the O2 sensors. That could have cost me money that I didn't need to spend. None of these things are unhealthy, they're just evidence of a quick crappy tune. It looks like no time was taken to do anything right, to give the customer a quality product or anything. And then, judging by this response by Shawn, it again appears as if they did nothing wrong, and the only reason anyone is questioning them is to discredit them. I think the tune speaks for itself, and so does their response.


In closing, I am respectfully asking for a refund of my money. Regardless of what VA Speed has done prior to, this is an extenuating case. I asked for a service from VA Speed and it wasn't done properly by any means. The tune was absolute garbage, and then the knock recovery issue could have cause serious engine damage. I asked for a quality "product" (that product being your tune) and I ended up with a quick "hack" job, done the easy way and not the right way. I don't believe this is what VA Speed intends to churn out, but unfortunately that is exactly what is being done.

Thank you for your time with this matter.

Sincerely,

Bryan

This was the reply I received:

Bryan,

Good morning.

Upon picking up your vehicle in July of 2011 and revisiting us shortly after, you did not address any concerns with your vehicle. Recently, information regarding Virginia Speed's tune was provided to you by another tuner. We would have welcomed the opportunity to review your tune with you and address any concerns you may have had. However, we were not given this opportunity. This would have been the proper procedure requested by Virginia Speed, Inc.. Unfortunately, we are unable to meet your request for a refund.

Best Regards,

Shannon
Virginia Speed, Inc.
1397 Taylor Farm Road,
Virginia Beach, VA 23453
757-468-5101


No explaination on my previous email where I replied to Shawn's statement. The reason I didn't revisit VA Speed was a trust issue. I'm not going to take it back to them to adjust their hack tune, since obviously they have no clue how to correctly tune a car. Not to mention, according to Shawn's evaluation said that the tune was fine and dandy, and there was NOTHING wrong with it. FFS....

So I shot this back:

Shannon,

VA Speed's lack of effort to work with a former customer is monumental. It really shows the true intentions of your shop, and lack of integrity and professionalism, not to mention lack of a tuner who knows how to tune. It is for these reasons that I will not recommend your services to anyone that so inquires. VA Speed's inability to solve problems that arise show everyone what kind of shop is run there. These findings, accompanied by facts will be posted on several forums as a review of VA Speed.

Good day.

And this:

Shannon,

I'd also like to add that according to Shawn's evaluation, he is
saying that the tune was acceptable. VA Speed's tune on my car was
downright DANGEROUS. If the engine had blown up at speed, there is no
telling what the car have done. Thrown me into a wall? Hit the grass
and flipped?

Food for thought.

Bryan

Just an update. I have discovered that instead of facing the recent rash of unhappy customers, and their internet threads, Va Speed has decided to stop sponsoring ls1tech.com and corvetteforum.com. While most companies would face the allegations head on, and let everyone know what they're trying to do to improve their product, and renew customer relations, Va Speed has went the opposite way and have decided that sponsoring the internet boards is either too problematic or not worth their time. To me, stopping their sponsorship of these boards is just an indication of not wanting to address the real issues. Regardless what you think of it, the fact is that at no point in any of the threads concerning their work, have they even one time given any indication of wanting to improve their quality and have only deflected blame on others.

I just thought this was significant information anyone seeking any type of work would want to know before choosing to have this company do anything for them.

I just have one thing to say. We've been ussing Shawns shortblocks for years and never/ever a failure. Cars from 500hp 418 strokers to 850rwhp FI daily drivers. Wish I could say that about some shortblocks we got from other places.

As for the inhouse installs,customer service and tuning ect - I have no idea since we just do shortblock builds through them.

It's way deeper than that. Like, if I posted it all, it would be like..... :eek2:

Coming into this thread and adding onto it is, like, immature. I'm not a customer of va speed, I was just looking for a tuner to tune my camaro in speed denisty.