View Full Version : ZL1 Tested vs BOSS


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evolve
01-17-2012, 07:35 AM
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1203_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2012_ford_mustan g_boss_302_laguna_seca/

Like one should expect, the ZL1 did better at Laguna Seca. Good stuff GM. Next matchup... Well, we all know what that will be.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-test-review

Car and Driver tested it at Indy in the 1/4 mile. 12.3 @ 119. The track was crap so we can assume a .1 or .2 second decrese in time with better conditions. We will see a stock ZL1 run 11s one day, just not that day.

NW-99SS
01-17-2012, 10:23 AM
I will be the first to say it...I am impressed that it beat the Boss Laguna Seca around the track. The fact that it was faster through all the corners except one says a lot about the suspension and tire choice on the ZL1.

I have no clue here, but I would think the Boss Laguna Seca is the quickest Mustang to date around almost any track (including Shelby cars), but the 2013 GT500 is a new animal yet to be tested.

Either way, I think that beating a Boss around a track by over 2 seconds is no easy accomplishment (just ask the BMW M3 boys).

88blackgt
01-17-2012, 10:36 AM
Interesting the comments on the Boss, they seem almost the opposite of other reviews I've seen. Good job by the ZL1. I'd be interested to see what the actual track times are and how they compare.

thunderstruck507
01-17-2012, 10:39 AM
That is very surprising. Definitely goes to show its more than "just a supercharged 5th gen".

Rawr256
01-17-2012, 10:53 AM
Crap would expect better mpg than 16/19 from the ZR1!:eek2: I wasn't expecting close to 30 or anything hwy, but even with a low cruising speed at 60 I would think it would have a low enough cruise rpm it could pull off MUCH better mileage. Hell the C6Z can still pull off mid 20's on the highway and its more track dedicated than this. :emb: Usually when I gloat about the LS engines to people it's always about the MPG it gets despite being "a gas guzzling ginormous V8."

TriShield
01-17-2012, 10:55 AM
Not surprised at all. Everything about the current Camaro from the ground-up is a generation ahead of the Mustang which has been around since 2005. We'll see if Ford tweaked the GT500 enough to surpass the ZL1. The power is certainly there but is the grip?

TriShield
01-17-2012, 10:56 AM
Hell the C6Z can still pull off mid 20's on the highway

The aerodynamics, weight, gearing and tires between the Camaro and Corvette are in two different universes.

UltraZLS1
01-17-2012, 12:07 PM
ZL1 beats the Mustang BOSS 302 Laguna Seca by 2.4 seconds per lap. Carries more speed in almost every corner. Would have been faster even without the HP advantage....read on.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1203_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2012_ford_mustan g_boss_302_laguna_seca/

TwitchZ28
01-17-2012, 12:13 PM
still not worth that sticker price....

88blackgt
01-17-2012, 12:20 PM
Got so excited you couldn't look down a couple posts in the same section?

Theblacknightls1
01-17-2012, 12:26 PM
I can see the ford guys saying it took a supercharged camaro to beat the all motor pony car. Just like we been saying about the 2003 cobra vs a ls1 fbody. I say put the supercharged camaro to the supercharged mustang

UltraZLS1
01-17-2012, 12:32 PM
Got so excited you couldn't look down a couple posts in the same section?

Well I was so excited I was jerking off at the same time...so its hard to concentrate.

Sorry I double posted Dad...it wont happen again.

88blackgt
01-17-2012, 12:35 PM
No...the 13 GT500 will beat this car. It is too expensive for me and too heavy.

And not nearly excited enough to register on a mustang website and spend my time their.

I missed the other post. Sorry your mad about the results.

Maybe we should have 5 new threads every time a 5.0 runs a good 1/4 mile time instead. Would that make you happy?

Making a lot of conclusions from a magazine driver skippy :)

I said "good job by the ZL1" in the other thread I'm not sure why you're so gung-ho.

But if we want to go around that road the regular Boss has lapped it at 1:40 IIRC. Thats the regular Boss, the LS has been into the 1:3Xs. This reviewer seems to be alone in his criticisms of the LS as motortrend itself gave it their Driver Car of the year award and praised its feel up and down.

thunderstruck507
01-17-2012, 12:36 PM
I say put the supercharged camaro to the supercharged mustang

When the new one comes out they will. IIRC the Boss is faster around the track than the current GT500 anyway.

88blackgt
01-17-2012, 12:36 PM
Caught your edit LOL. Someone is worked up.

LS1-450
01-17-2012, 12:44 PM
Not surprised at all. Everything about the current Camaro from the ground-up is a generation ahead of the Mustang which has been around since 2005. We'll see if Ford tweaked the GT500 enough to surpass the ZL1. The power is certainly there but is the grip?


No way the ZL1 is a generation ahead of the BOSS Mustang. Yes, the Mustang body style has been around since 2005, but, the BOSS, ground up, track designed Mustang uses current technology. So, the comparison is valid current tech vs current tech.

A GT500 w/ a suspension under it would be a sight to see, but, doubtful. There's already far too many Mustang models available. To design a GT500 in a way to beat the ZL1, on a road course, would also hurt BOSS sales. The BOSS already hurt sales of the Roush, which was basically a BOSS in waiting.

Am SHOCKED to see that a ZL1 has beaten a BOSS around a road course. 2.5 seconds per lap is a lifetime...WOW!

UltraZLS1
01-17-2012, 12:47 PM
Caught your edit LOL. Someone is worked up.

Still jerking...going for round 2.

Are you excited?

Nice job comparing different drivers on different days. Means nothing compared to same driver same day.

I guess Ill have to mag race this scenario....do you have a boss 302 and a zl1 we could battle it out in?

HioSSilver
01-17-2012, 12:48 PM
No surprises on the lap times. I new that was gonna be a ass whooping.

HioSSilver
01-17-2012, 12:52 PM
Still jerking...going for round 2.

Are you excited?

Nice job comparing different drivers on different days. Means nothing compared to same driver same day.

I guess Ill have to mag race this scenario....do you have a boss 302 and a zl1 we could battle it out in?

Ford guys always need some type of cruch to lean on...lol What's really gonna hurt is when they test a 12 SS Camaro with it's new suspension package and it outruns the Boss also.

88blackgt
01-17-2012, 12:55 PM
I can't even keep up with all of your edits.

UltraZLS1
01-17-2012, 01:01 PM
I can't even keep up with all of your edits.

Once again...im sorry dad

zz4camaro1980
01-17-2012, 01:14 PM
not surprised, magnetic ride control as well as the fact that it comes standard with "engine, transmission, and differential all come with standard lubricant coolers. Note that the transmission is further chilled via NACA ducts at the rear of the underbody pan..." you had to know Chevy was setting this thing up for more than 1/4 mile performance.

nanokpsi
01-17-2012, 01:15 PM
ZL1 beats the Mustang BOSS 302 Laguna Seca by 2.4 seconds per lap. Carries more speed in almost every corner. Would have been faster even without the HP advantage....read on.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1203_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2012_ford_mustan g_boss_302_laguna_seca/

I don't know why they compared the Boss to the ZL!, but it is what it is.
When insideline tested all of the mustangs on the track, on the same day, the GT500 beat the Laguna Seca as well. The 2012 would probably be a good matchup than the Boss.

I don't see much bragging on the quarter mile times, either ;)

nanokpsi
01-17-2012, 01:17 PM
Ford guys always need some type of cruch to lean on...lol What's really gonna hurt is when they test a 12 SS Camaro with it's new suspension package and it outruns the Boss also.

I don't think any of the Ford guys care how the ZL1 stacks up against the Laguna Seca ;)

I would like to see waht it does against the 2012 GT500. I think everyone knows the 2013 is going to smoke the ZL1 at every test.

Urban Legend
01-17-2012, 01:18 PM
Good news.

zz4camaro1980
01-17-2012, 01:20 PM
I don't think any of the Ford guys care how the ZL1 stacks up against the Laguna Seca ;)

I would like to see waht it does against the 2012 GT500. I think everyone knows the 2013 is going to smoke the ZL1 at every test.

Even handling? What does the 2013 (or even 2012) have in terms of suspension that the BOSS doesnt?

nanokpsi
01-17-2012, 01:21 PM
When the new one comes out they will. IIRC the Boss is faster around the track than the current GT500 anyway.

The only test I have seen on the same day has the GT500 faster, and that is with the crappy diff in the GT500.

gocartone
01-17-2012, 01:27 PM
IIRC the Boss is faster around the track than the current GT500 anyway.

Nope, current GT500 was 0.6 faster around a 1.6 mile course (Streets of Willow Springs) where it didn't even get to use it's HP advantage. I would say the two('11-'12 GT500 and ZL1) would be neck and neck, not sure why they didn't test the two. I still can't understand Fords tire choice, wider tires (front and rear) on all of the Mustangs would make a HUGE difference.

UltraZLS1
01-17-2012, 01:31 PM
I don't know why they compared the Boss to the ZL!, but it is what it is.
When insideline tested all of the mustangs on the track, on the same day, the GT500 beat the Laguna Seca as well. The 2012 would probably be a good matchup than the Boss.

I don't see much bragging on the quarter mile times, either ;)

Well...they ran a 12.1 with it. Last test with a new gt500 was at a 12.3. So its not too bad.

I personally think the new zl1 edges out the 12 GT500 but the 13 gt500 will edge out the 12 zl1. Just the way things go...each company will counter with something better.

If you looked deeper into the vehicle you would also realize how much better engineered the zl1 is for the track compared to the current gt500. It is designed to be raced all day long.

Urban Legend
01-17-2012, 04:18 PM
still not worth that sticker price....

Oh yes it is. 550 plus horsepower and a factory warranty? It's worth it. I spent a lot on my 99 SS Procharger project and there was always a problem.

ULTIMATEORANGESS
01-17-2012, 05:12 PM
this car is proving to be very capable. alot more so than some thought.



i wish i could afford one.

Urban Legend
01-17-2012, 06:06 PM
this car is proving to be very capable. alot more so than some thought.



i wish i could afford one.
I was a doubter myself. But it looks like it can out handle the M3. My 09 M3 was a superb canyon carver. So good for GM.

djsanchez2
01-17-2012, 06:52 PM
:thumb: Im am glad it is living up to all the hype. It would have been VERY bad for GM, had it failed to deliver.

TriShield
01-17-2012, 07:25 PM
No way the ZL1 is a generation ahead of the BOSS Mustang.

Uh, just by virtue that it rides on a modern, clean-sheet structure from Holden, features an independent rear suspension that was a new design, the first car to use the next magnetic suspension system, etc Yes, it is a generation newer (therefore ahead) in engineering at the very least. And in this article it shows. When Ford finally comes out with a new Mustang from the ground-up then the tables will turn.

jmurray87
01-17-2012, 07:43 PM
Very impressive, but I will be the first to say this.........would have been even better if it was less then 4,000lbs.

TransAmWS.6
01-17-2012, 08:00 PM
Pretty cool, but not surprised from the results. The Boss is down in power by over 100hp, but I'm surprised that it did as well as it actually did. Also, looks like the ZL1 is actually in the 4,050 pound range, that's a bit lighter than what was originally reported.

Zlow28
01-17-2012, 08:02 PM
i think the next gen camaro will weigh less in its new platform. I think they already made a new caddy sporting the next platform and it was around 3400lbs iirc

This is actually a good sign for chevy, since the boss was made for turns and handling, and chevy beat em at it. I guess the zl1 still has hope to compete lol

ULTIMATEORANGESS
01-17-2012, 08:07 PM
one thing i think will happen is this will make 5th gens more popular and i expect some enthusiasts to be more accepting of this platform.

texas94z
01-17-2012, 08:36 PM
Not surprised by the results. Bring on the GT500.

Urban Legend
01-17-2012, 08:38 PM
Not surprised by the results. Bring on the GT500.

What year? 2013? Careful what you wish for.

raymond mckinney
01-17-2012, 08:49 PM
Car and Driver put the weight at 4150? And motortrend at 4050, wonder what it really is?
I did expect aleast 120mph traps...

Urban Legend
01-17-2012, 08:59 PM
Car and Driver put the weight at 4150? And motortrend at 4050, wonder what it really is?
I did expect aleast 120mph traps...

Fuel levels maybe are different, testing equipment, options on car, scale not calibrated? Just throwing something out there. No clue though.

LS1-450
01-17-2012, 09:13 PM
Uh, just by virtue that it rides on a modern, clean-sheet structure from Holden, features an independent rear suspension that was a new design, the first car to use the next magnetic suspension system, etc Yes, it is a generation newer (therefore ahead) in engineering at the very least. And in this article it shows. When Ford finally comes out with a new Mustang from the ground-up then the tables will turn.


Point was that Ford could have used any suspension it wanted to. BOSS is a new model (Parneli Jones tested & all that) . Ford made the choice recently, as in modern times. Ford could have used any suspension design & chose for themselves. By your logic, I could claim that GM didn't remove the front & rear anti-sway bars in leu of individually computer controlled control arms like what is found on the McClaren MP4-12C. So, the ZL1 must not have a modern design suspension. Further, if Ford used a live rear axle (I doubt it & did not go look & see), then they are just dumb a$$es.

Am a fan of the BOSS & not the ZL1. Also, am not a Ford or GM guy; just a car guy. A modern built ZL1 beat a modern built BOSS on a road course. I'm as shocked as most.

TriShield
01-17-2012, 09:47 PM
Point was that Ford could have used any suspension it wanted to. BOSS is a new model (Parneli Jones tested & all that) . Ford made the choice recently, as in modern times. Ford could have used any suspension design & chose for themselves.

I am simply said that the base engineering of the Camaro is newer than that of the Mustang. That's why the Camaro recieved comments about it's superior composure, refinement and rigidity - which is all to be expected in a vehicle whose bones were designed more recently than the other. I'm not sure you are getting that by reading your comments.

GTOSE
01-17-2012, 10:06 PM
I'm just surprised it beat a purpose built mustang around the track. Well played.

I am impressed :)

Wimimc
01-17-2012, 10:32 PM
Pretty awesome. Release the Alpha Camaro with direct injection.

djsanchez2
01-18-2012, 12:17 AM
Pretty awesome. Release the Alpha Camaro with direct injection.

:stupid:

Urban Legend
01-18-2012, 12:39 AM
Winning is winning.

LS1LT1
01-18-2012, 05:33 AM
I'm just surprised it beat a purpose built mustang around the track. Well played.And it was the Laguna Seca package at that, :nod: not just the already spectacular base Boss 302, not that there is any huge performance difference between the two Bosses.
I love both cars (ZL1s and Boss 302s or Camaros and Mustangs in general for that matter) but I too am impressed. :)

MI-Z/28
01-18-2012, 07:52 AM
Point was that Ford could have used any suspension it wanted to. BOSS is a new model (Parneli Jones tested & all that) . Ford made the choice recently, as in modern times. Ford could have used any suspension design & chose for themselves. By your logic, I could claim that GM didn't remove the front & rear anti-sway bars in leu of individually computer controlled control arms like what is found on the McClaren MP4-12C. So, the ZL1 must not have a modern design suspension. Further, if Ford used a live rear axle (I doubt it & did not go look & see), then they are just dumb a$$es.

Am a fan of the BOSS & not the ZL1. Also, am not a Ford or GM guy; just a car guy. A modern built ZL1 beat a modern built BOSS on a road course. I'm as shocked as most.

You're right, Ford could have used any suspension they wanted to, but they didn't. I can almost guarantee that the next generation Mustang will have IRS and a setup similar to GM's magnetic ride control, thus proving what TriShield is saying about the Mustang being a generation behind. This is not to say that the new Mustang's suspension is trash, because we all know it has already proven itself to be very capable on the track.

I'm just surprised it beat a purpose built mustang around the track.

One can argue that the ZL1 is also a purpose built track car... GM sure does.

I don't understand why everyone is so surprised. IMO had the ZL1 not done this well, GM would have been embarrassed.

LS1-450
01-18-2012, 08:42 AM
Yah, well it's a pretty good slap in the face when your purpose built & boasted road course car gets spanked by a fat pig. It's also why I'm a fan of building mutts. Taking what works & building ones' own brand of performance.

A lot of R&D, as well as cost went into developing the new BOSS. There are no excuses. Ford should have just slapped a BOSS badge on a Roush & saved 100 million.

whytryz28
01-18-2012, 09:15 AM
Not surprised at all. Everything about the current Camaro from the ground-up is a generation ahead of the Mustang which has been around since 2005. We'll see if Ford tweaked the GT500 enough to surpass the ZL1. The power is certainly there but is the grip?

This has always been fords downfall with the GT500.

1QWIKZ
01-18-2012, 12:15 PM
funny how the tables have turned...camaro needs a blower to beat a mustang.

MI-Z/28
01-18-2012, 12:26 PM
funny how the tables have turned...camaro needs a blower to beat a mustang.

I disagree. Apply the ZL1 suspension technology to a SS with a hotcam LS3 under the hood and see what happens. IMO that should be the Z28.

HioSSilver
01-18-2012, 12:31 PM
I think they're comming out with a 1le Camaro with all the suspension bits but no charger.

MI-Z/28
01-18-2012, 12:36 PM
I think they're comming out with a 1le Camaro with all the suspension bits but no charger.

That's what it was. I couldn't remember the name. I really don't care what they call it, so long as they make it. A 30-40hp increase would be nice too! :)

thunderstruck507
01-18-2012, 12:44 PM
funny how the tables have turned...camaro needs a blower to beat a mustang.

Did you read the article? The driver has praise for the car's handling and ability to make the driver confident more for the victory than the power.

2.4 seconds per lap is a decent margin

It would be interesting to see a car setup similar to the ZL1 but NA and how it stacks up. Might find the supercharger isn't necessary for the car to hold it's own (depending on the track). Kinda like comparing the Z06/Z07 Corvettes to the ZR1.

HioSSilver
01-18-2012, 12:59 PM
This is what 2.1 sec look like. Keep in mind they compared a 12 Boss to a 10 Camaro(I would assume with 2yr old tires and all). I would like to see this comparison again but with a more comparable 12 SS with the new fe4 suspension.

http://youtu.be/Jr3SwDviPQ0

LS1LT1
01-18-2012, 01:33 PM
It would be interesting to see a car setup similar to the ZL1 but NA and how it stacks up. Might find the supercharger isn't necessary for the car to hold it's own (depending on the track). Kinda like comparing the Z06/Z07 Corvettes to the ZR1.I'd like to see that as well...and a car like that would also be a little lighter (and more importantly, that weight would be off the nose/front of the car) without that blower/intercooler/plumbing under the hood. :nod:

1QWIKZ
01-18-2012, 01:54 PM
Did you read the article? The driver has praise for the car's handling and ability to make the driver confident more for the victory than the power.

2.4 seconds per lap is a decent margin

It would be interesting to see a car setup similar to the ZL1 but NA and how it stacks up. Might find the supercharger isn't necessary for the car to hold it's own (depending on the track). Kinda like comparing the Z06/Z07 Corvettes to the ZR1.

first of all, i was being sarcastic..secondly, i seriously doubt that a SS would keep up with the L.S. BOSS even if it had the ZL1s suspension. so if you look at it from the realist's stand point and not a GM fan, you can see that the ZL1s hp helped outed immensly on the straight aways.

HioSSilver
01-18-2012, 02:05 PM
first of all, i was being sarcastic..secondly, i seriously doubt that a SS would keep up with the L.S. BOSS even if it had the ZL1s suspension. so if you look at it from the realist's stand point and not a GM fan, you can see that the ZL1s hp helped outed immensly on the straight aways.

Actually having more corner speed will help more than the HP on that track. I bet a 12 fe4 SS would do better than the boss.

thunderstruck507
01-18-2012, 02:34 PM
first of all, i was being sarcastic..secondly, i seriously doubt that a SS would keep up with the L.S. BOSS even if it had the ZL1s suspension. so if you look at it from the realist's stand point and not a GM fan, you can see that the ZL1s hp helped outed immensly on the straight aways.

Well if you want sarcasm to be clear, use an emoticon or some other indication. Sorry for misinterpreting to comment.


My response was based on the driver's comments from the article and has nothing to do with being a "GM fan", just a curious thought towards a statement implying it was only HP that caused the results. There's no doubt power helps in the straights, but 140hp in a turn is usually more hurtful than helpful.

Just trying to keep the thread on track with some intelligent discussion before it devolves into the typical Ford v. Chevy bullshit about sales numbers, weight, use of power adders, and displacement handicaps...

Johnnystock
01-18-2012, 04:22 PM
Well if you want sarcasm to be clear, use an emoticon or some other indication. Sorry for misinterpreting to comment.


My response was based on the driver's comments from the article and has nothing to do with being a "GM fan", just a curious thought towards a statement implying it was only HP that caused the results. There's no doubt power helps in the straights, but 140hp in a turn is usually more hurtful than helpful.

Just trying to keep the thread on track with some intelligent discussion before it devolves into the typical Ford v. Chevy bullshit about sales numbers, weight, use of power adders, and displacement handicaps...

It will happen, dont worry :(

Anyway, I am impressed about this ZL1 beating the Boss. I'm pretty sure the 140hp made the difference. IMO, a MR equipped LS3 N/A Camaro would be enough to keep up/beat the Boss, BUT with 300-400lbs less LOL

thunderstruck507
01-18-2012, 05:55 PM
I'm pretty sure the 140hp made the difference. IMO, a MR equipped LS3 N/A Camaro would be enough to keep up/beat the Boss, BUT with 300-400lbs less LOL

Based on these results, that is what I was getting at. If they drop some weight from the lack of supercharger and maybe give it a slight HP bump to the ls3...the car they end up with could still be competitive.

Would it be much closer? Of course. But the thought is more along the lines of dispelling the idea that many people (myself included) had that they couldn't build a street legal car that could even come close to the Boss because the Boss was so impressive to start with.

The idea such a car could keep up might still be bullshit. Maybe it would get its ass stomped by the Boss. But it makes for interesting conversation.

GTOSE
01-18-2012, 06:19 PM
One can argue that the ZL1 is also a purpose built track car... GM sure does.

I don't understand why everyone is so surprised. IMO had the ZL1 not done this well, GM would have been embarrassed.

What I meant by this was the giant front splitter on the BOSS LS, as well as the roll bar in the backseat, along with other forms of weight reduction.

The ZL1 is more comparable to the GT500, which is built with the public roads in mind a little more.

I think when most people saw the title given the previous performances of the Camaro, they expected the worst for the ZL1. Especially around the race track.

HioSSilver
01-18-2012, 06:26 PM
I bet if they did a series of 10 laps by the end of the series the ZL1 would be 3-4 sec. a lap faster. They did flying laps and commented on how much easier the ZL1 was to drive.

If they build a 1le car it would be faster than the Boss.

MI-Z/28
01-18-2012, 07:16 PM
What I meant by this was the giant front splitter on the BOSS LS, as well as the roll bar in the backseat, along with other forms of weight reduction.

The ZL1 is more comparable to the GT500, which is built with the public roads in mind a little more.

I think when most people saw the title given the previous performances of the Camaro, they expected the worst for the ZL1. Especially around the race track.

I know what you were saying. The Boss LS is 100% track oriented and the ZL1 still has the street in mind, no dispute there. However, GM has come out and said that the ZL1 is 100% road course ready from the factory. They've made multiple videos spouting off about its lap times and features that have been developed and tuned at the Nurburgring. Based on those statements I expect it to be able to go out and compete with cars like the Boss LS.

GTOSE
01-18-2012, 07:25 PM
I know what you were saying. The Boss LS is 100% track oriented and the ZL1 still has the street in mind, no dispute there. However, GM has come out and said that the ZL1 is 100% road course ready from the factory. They've made multiple videos spouting off about its lap times and features that have been developed and tuned at the Nurburgring. Based on those statements I expect it to be able to go out and compete with cars like the Boss LS.

Fair enough, they have been advertising the shit out of that thing.

lol.

firebird99
01-18-2012, 08:59 PM
Well I think we have proved the point that if the camaro wasn't so heavy and had better Hp to weight ratio it would be as fast as the ls boss like the new zl1 has done. Now as far as beating a current gt500 I think that's been established and is a win for Chevy since that's the car is was built for not the new gt500 which was fords response to the zl1 so when the ford beats it I won't be surprised or let down because it's what's supposed to happen if not then it will be more shamefull for the ford guys then it will for us. I'm also glad I'm able to enjoy some of the best cars ever built before the v8 days are gone forever because my kids won't have this around when there old enough to enjoy and afford it.

ThisBlood147
01-18-2012, 09:31 PM
Very impressive...but I'd still take the Boss over it. I haven't really cared about the ZL1 since I found out it weighs as much as a Taurus. I still have trouble abiding the 3800 lbs that the current GT500 weighs.

fspeedster
01-18-2012, 10:18 PM
Very impressive...but I'd still take the Boss over it. I haven't really cared about the ZL1 since I found out it weighs as much as a Taurus. I still have trouble abiding the 3800 lbs that the current GT500 weighs.

I think we all know you and Irunelevens would :gruffy:. Btw, where is Irunelevens? I've had my :corn: ready and waiting to hear what he'd come up with.

1QWIKZ
01-18-2012, 10:33 PM
i wonder if the BOSS's track key was activated on that lap? i m disappointed the ZL1 only beat the BOSS by .2 sec in the 1/4 mile. i am NOT surprised the ZL1 did win on the course considering it has more hp/tq....its kinda like comparing a EVO to a GTR, both track-minded cars but one has more power than the other.

88blackgt
01-18-2012, 10:42 PM
I think we all know you and Irunelevens would :gruffy:.

If you're calling him a nustwinger you must be confusing him with someone else.

HioSSilver
01-18-2012, 10:51 PM
He's definetly not a:swing:

:eyes:

gocartone
01-18-2012, 11:45 PM
He's definetly not a:swing:

:eyes:

Really?? You are one of the biggest nut swingers on the forum, he likes cars because they are good.

HioSSilver
01-18-2012, 11:57 PM
Actually I'm not. I have alot of friends with fords. I do know the differences and I cut the bs. I do prefer chevy's, but I would buy another make.

Remember I'm not the ford guy on the chevy forum talking up all the Ford shit, that's a heavey duty:swing: . I don't belong to any Ford furums.

zz4camaro1980
01-19-2012, 07:55 AM
first of all, i was being sarcastic..secondly, i seriously doubt that a SS would keep up with the L.S. BOSS even if it had the ZL1s suspension. so if you look at it from the realist's stand point and not a GM fan, you can see that the ZL1s hp helped outed immensly on the straight aways.

It will happen, dont worry :(

Anyway, I am impressed about this ZL1 beating the Boss. I'm pretty sure the 140hp made the difference. IMO, a MR equipped LS3 N/A Camaro would be enough to keep up/beat the Boss, BUT with 300-400lbs less LOL

i wonder if the BOSS's track key was activated on that lap? i m disappointed the ZL1 only beat the BOSS by .2 sec in the 1/4 mile. i am NOT surprised the ZL1 did win on the course considering it has more hp/tq....its kinda like comparing a EVO to a GTR, both track-minded cars but one has more power than the other.

Why is this being brought up so many times? Directly from the article: "the data indicates the ZL1 carries more speed everywhere but the slowest corner."

JHL88
01-19-2012, 11:27 AM
im happy to hear the news

Irunelevens
01-19-2012, 11:30 AM
Actually I'm not. I have alot of friends with fords. I do know the differences and I cut the bs. I do prefer chevy's, but I would buy another make.

Remember I'm not the ford guy on the chevy forum talking up all the Ford shit, that's a heavey duty:swing: . I don't belong to any Ford furums.

The fact that you think I'm a "Ford guy," means that either you don't really pay attention to the stuff I say, or you just don't get it. Whatever, doesn't matter. As for the OP, that is very impressive. Glad to see this car can back up the BS.

JHL88
01-19-2012, 11:37 AM
here are two more reviews

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196058

HioSSilver
01-19-2012, 12:23 PM
The fact that you think I'm a "Ford guy," means that either you don't really pay attention to the stuff I say, or you just don't get it. Whatever, doesn't matter. As for the OP, that is very impressive. Glad to see this car can back up the BS.

Sorry...Ford/Honda guy :poke:

MasterTomos
01-19-2012, 12:55 PM
Lmao...when this car hadn't been tested/produced yet most everyone just talked shit and said the car was going to be junk. Now everyone is so surprised that it's a capable performer.

I think it definitely says something when even the track guys and testers are saying that horsepower "isn't everything" and that speed through corners is very important.

In order for the '13 GT500 to beat the ZL1 in the same way the ZL1 beat the LS Boss, The shelby will have to be 4-5 seconds faster than the LS boss. The boss LS is Fords new, purpose tuned track car that's made specifically for this kind of racing. A 2.5 second lead a lap is pretty much a bitch-slap. Do you guys think that they can/will make the GT500 3-5 seconds a lap faster than the current LS boss?

Keep in mind, the GT500 is on 285mm tires w/ 650hp and hundreds of pounds lighter than the ZL1, no cage like the LS, more nose weight than the Boss LS. IMO, I really dont think the GT500 will live up to the hype.

I stand by my original opinion that the 2013 GT500 and the ZL1 will be very close despite the HP and weight difference.

Irunelevens
01-19-2012, 01:07 PM
They'll definitely be close around road courses, especially ones with the type of surface where IRS has a big advantage. Where they won't be close, is at the drag strip with both cars wearing dancing shoes.

gocartone
01-19-2012, 01:18 PM
Keep in mind, the GT500 is on 285mm tires w/ 650hp and hundreds of pounds lighter than the ZL1, no cage like the LS, more nose weight than the Boss LS. IMO, I really dont think the GT500 will live up to the hype.

I stand by my original opinion that the 2013 GT500 and the ZL1 will be very close despite the HP and weight difference.

The only test I've seen done between the current GT500 and the Boss LS had the current GT500 running .6 faster around a course half as long as the one the ZL1 and Boss were on. So I think the current would run right with the ZL1 on most tracks(road and 1/4 mile), while the '13 is going to outrun it everywhere.

zz4camaro1980
01-19-2012, 01:21 PM
Lmao...when this car hadn't been tested/produced yet most everyone just talked shit and said the car was going to be junk. Now everyone is so surprised that it's a capable performer.

I think it definitely says something when even the track guys and testers are saying that horsepower "isn't everything" and that speed through corners is very important.

In order for the '13 GT500 to beat the ZL1 in the same way the ZL1 beat the LS Boss, The shelby will have to be 4-5 seconds faster than the LS boss. The boss LS is Fords new, purpose tuned track car that's made specifically for this kind of racing. A 2.5 second lead a lap is pretty much a bitch-slap. Do you guys think that they can/will make the GT500 3-5 seconds a lap faster than the current LS boss?

Keep in mind, the GT500 is on 285mm tires w/ 650hp and hundreds of pounds lighter than the ZL1, no cage like the LS, more nose weight than the Boss LS. IMO, I really dont think the GT500 will live up to the hype.

I stand by my original opinion that the 2013 GT500 and the ZL1 will be very close despite the HP and weight difference.

:judge: The HP difference will be negligable when people start modding as well. I just read that the Zl1 blower puts out 9psi and the GT500 is up to 15psi. Im guessing with a simple pulley swap the ZL1 is going to be right there in terms of straight line performance. In terms of handling... the writing is on the wall.

Another thing I was wondering- the ZL1 comes standard with the oil, transmission and rear-end cooler; how much do all those weigh (including the extra fluid)? If you buy the track pack for the 2013 GT500 (adding all the additional coolers) how much does that add to its curb weight?

SSCamaro99_3
01-19-2012, 02:00 PM
:judge: The HP difference will be negligable when people start modding as well. I just read that the Zl1 blower puts out 9psi and the GT500 is up to 15psi. Im guessing with a simple pulley swap the ZL1 is going to be right there in terms of straight line performance. In terms of handling... the writing is on the wall.

Another thing I was wondering- the ZL1 comes standard with the oil, transmission and rear-end cooler; how much do all those weigh (including the extra fluid)? If you buy the track pack for the 2013 GT500 (adding all the additional coolers) how much does that add to its curb weight?

Let's just hope the pistons in the ZL1 hold up to all that boost. If you find the delta between the fluid increases between and SS/ZL1 to maitain capacity, you could make a reasonable assumption.

zz4camaro1980
01-19-2012, 02:58 PM
Let's just hope the pistons in the ZL1 hold up to all that boost. If you find the delta between the fluid increases between and SS/ZL1 to maitain capacity, you could make a reasonable assumption.

I completely forgot- the ZL1s pistons arent forged... im sure there are plenty of crazies out there that are going to love finding the limits, but that is disapointing. 2013 ZL1=forged motor? Ill keep my fingers crossed.

EDIT: Does the ZR1 and ZL1 have the same shortblock? If so, we know its good to atleast 638.

HioSSilver
01-19-2012, 03:46 PM
Zr1 has forged pistons and titanium rods.

1QWIKZ
01-19-2012, 04:18 PM
Why is this being brought up so many times? Directly from the article: "the data indicates the ZL1 carries more speed everywhere but the slowest corner."so you're saying it has more hp/tq to get up to speed and carry it around corners????:D

gocartone
01-19-2012, 05:26 PM
so you're saying it has more hp/tq to get up to speed and carry it around corners????:D

Actually, look at the data they posted. Speed is about the same in all the corners, not nearly a big enough difference to say that with the same power to weight ratio the Camaro would still win. Either way, this vs 2012 GT500 is what I want to see before the 2013 comes out.

vetteboy99
01-19-2012, 05:49 PM
I love it.

JUSTINSWS6
01-19-2012, 05:59 PM
This is very cool. I think the new gt500 was way over-played.

vetteboy99
01-19-2012, 06:51 PM
The only mustang I'd own is a terminator.

ThisBlood147
01-19-2012, 07:20 PM
I think we all know you and Irunelevens would :gruffy:. Btw, where is Irunelevens? I've had my :corn: ready and waiting to hear what he'd come up with.

Are you addressing I???:secret2:

Don't speak like you know me. What you DON'T know about me I could just about squeeze into the Grand-fuckin'-Canyon. Thank you. Now continue on your fanboy train.

vetteboy99
01-19-2012, 07:24 PM
Are you addressing I???:secret2:

Don't speak like you know me. What you DON'T know about me I could just about squeeze into the Grand-fuckin'-Canyon. Thank you. Now continue on your fanboy train.

Lmao!!!! What the hell is that supposed to mean?! Welli can squeeze the Himalayas!

Irunelevens
01-19-2012, 07:29 PM
He put the "I" in there on accident. He's saying, "the amount information you don't know about me is so large, it could fill the Grand Canyon."

vetteboy99
01-19-2012, 07:31 PM
Aaaahh I see. My bad.

Irunelevens
01-19-2012, 07:33 PM
Either that, or he's REALLY big, and forgot a comma. :lol:

JUSTINSWS6
01-19-2012, 07:46 PM
^i think he is fat. I dont know what else it could mean....

Irunelevens
01-19-2012, 07:55 PM
Not sure if you're serious... :poke:

JUSTINSWS6
01-19-2012, 07:58 PM
I dont kid.

ULTIMATEORANGESS
01-19-2012, 08:24 PM
does this seem like a descent estimate for a 2013 GT500?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4yv63Csi4I&list=UUA7-FZcYDo-mcIWM9JYuwow&index=4&feature=plcp

ThisBlood147
01-19-2012, 08:25 PM
I guess there aren't a lot of Kevin Smith fans reading this thread.:chug:

JUSTINSWS6
01-19-2012, 08:29 PM
The thing about the gt500 all of the numbers have been est. all of the zl1 has been proven.

Irunelevens
01-19-2012, 08:33 PM
They are estimates based off of what the current GT500 has already done. Not exactly a stretch.

JUSTINSWS6
01-19-2012, 08:45 PM
Thats true but its like bench racing, no one knows what its going to run. It could run better or it could run worse.

Irunelevens
01-19-2012, 08:47 PM
I really doubt it's gonna be slower... If anything, those estimate numbers might be a bit conservative for both cars.

TriShield
01-19-2012, 08:48 PM
The key with the 2013 GT500 is going to be if it can put 650hp down stock and if the suspension has been changed enough to make the controllable.

As everyone can probably tell the ZL1 was gone by GMPD to handle. We'll see what SVT did for 2013.

LS1LT1
01-19-2012, 08:58 PM
EDIT: Does the ZR1 and ZL1 have the same shortblock? If so, we know its good to atleast 638.Not exactly. The ZL1 and Cadillac CTS-V do share the same shortblock (same longblock and almost everything else under the hood as well for that matter) but the ZR1 steps it all up a notch. :nod:





does this seem like a descent estimate for a 2013 GT500?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4yv63Csi4I&list=UUA7-FZcYDo-mcIWM9JYuwow&index=4&feature=plcpYes, I could see it pretty much going that way for sure. :nod:
But the one big factor I still keep coming back to is the race between the bone stock automatic ZL1 and the bone stock 2013 (or especially the 2012 current) GT500.
We've all seen the results of poorly (or even average well) driven manual cars on the drag strip.
I myself have even beaten more than my fair share of '11.5 second capable' manual car with my low 12 second automatic.
But yes, in the 'manual 2012 ZL1 versus manual 2013 GT500' race with equal drivers in equal conditions, I certainly would not bet against the Mustang. :drive:

LS1LT1
01-19-2012, 09:06 PM
If anything, those estimate numbers might be a bit conservative for both cars.I agree 100%.
I'm going to predict that at least one (likely more than one) bone stock ZL1 will run in the 11s before 2012 comes to a close. I'm even guestimating that we will see one go an 11.7x in stock trim (tires and all).
But that also applies to the 2013 GT500 estimates as well. If that video extrapolated out an 11.7 for the car then I'm thinking that the potential for an 11.5 or even 11.4 might be there. :burn:

gocartone
01-19-2012, 09:48 PM
I myself have even beaten more than my fair share of '11.5 second capable' manual car with my low 12 second automatic.
But yes, in the 'manual 2012 ZL1 versus manual 2013 GT500' race with equal drivers in equal conditions, I certainly would not bet against the Mustang. :drive:

It's hard to compare numbers when talking a shitty driver vs a good one though, I watched a 2007 Z06 make a couple 14sec passes and never go faster than a low-mid 13 even after 10 or so passes at the track. That's a car that has run what a 10.8 bone stock to the tires with a great driver and track? So yes, I would put my money on an auto beating a bad manual driver, hell I'd put money on a V6 Mustang beating a GT500 if the driver was bad enough haha.

I agree 100%.
I'm going to predict that at least one (likely more than one) bone stock ZL1 will run in the 11s before 2012 comes to a close. I'm even guestimating that we will see one go an 11.7x in stock trim (tires and all).
But that also applies to the 2013 GT500 estimates as well. If that video extrapolated out an 11.7 for the car then I'm thinking that the potential for an 11.5 or even 11.4 might be there. :burn:

Fastest stock 2011-12 GT500s have gone 11.7XX, so I would hope the Camaro can get there. But add 100hp and better gearing to an 11.7XX car and I could see it pulling low-mid 11s with a great driver, mid-high 10s on slicks.

vetteboy99
01-19-2012, 09:52 PM
Our bolt on z06 beat a 2010+ gt500.

JUSTINSWS6
01-19-2012, 09:58 PM
They had some undercover pics of the c7 but it had like leather ovet it. It looks like a lambo and a zr1 mixed looks bad ass.

Irunelevens
01-19-2012, 10:21 PM
Our bolt on z06 beat a 2010+ gt500.

They had some undercover pics of the c7 but it had like leather ovet it. It looks like a lambo and a zr1 mixed looks bad ass.

I have no idea how either of these posts have anything to do with what we are talking about :lol:

kewlv8
01-19-2012, 11:36 PM
funny how the tables have turned...camaro needs a blower to beat a mustang.

And beat it by a whopping 3/10's. (12.1 sec @ 117.4 mph ~ 12.4 sec @ 113.9 mph). No worries for the ZL1, the Shelby will only have 206 more HP than the Boss :devil:.

JUSTINSWS6
01-19-2012, 11:39 PM
O this isnt ordablas infintive bs thread my bad.

Zlow28
01-19-2012, 11:56 PM
Our bolt on z06 beat a 2010+ gt500.

yay your corvette beat a mustang!

cool story brah :eyes:

firebird99
01-20-2012, 12:50 AM
You guys do remember that the zl1 WAS NOT built to go against the 2013 gt500 right? With that said it did beat the gt500 it was built to compete with so it's a win for Chevy even though it weighs alot more so if it even comes close to the new gt500 which has even more power and still weighs less then I think thats saying something for a over weight under powered car to run that close to the new gt500.

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 02:19 AM
You guys do remember that the zl1 WAS NOT built to go against the 2013 gt500 right? With that said it did beat the gt500 it was built to compete with so it's a win for Chevy even though it weighs alot more so if it even comes close to the new gt500 which has even more power and still weighs less then I think thats saying something for a over weight under powered car to run that close to the new gt500.

The current GT500 has yet to be tested vs. a ZL1. And the rumor mill has been churning hard about this new GT500 for quite some time now. Chevy didn't go for the knockout blow with the ZL1 because they don't want to upstage the Corvette. Which will always be the Camaro's Achilles heel.

DiscerningZ32
01-20-2012, 07:03 AM
As I would expect, the ZL1 outperformed the Boss. And it performed very well.:nod:

Not to discredit the ZL1 or the article, but the Boss has run quicker times than in the article on two occasions (base Boss and Boss LS), times which are also quicker than the ZL1's time. Just throwing it on the fire...:P:jest:

ULTIMATEORANGESS
01-20-2012, 07:10 AM
The current GT500 has yet to be tested vs. a ZL1. And the rumor mill has been churning hard about this new GT500 for quite some time now. Chevy didn't go for the knockout blow with the ZL1 because they don't want to upstage the Corvette. Which will always be the Camaro's Achilles heel.

what might help this zl1 is having a few vettes to choose from that make awesome power. as long power and performance are increased with vettes it should be for this car.

1QWIKZ
01-20-2012, 09:19 AM
And beat it by a whopping 3/10's. (12.1 sec @ 117.4 mph ~ 12.4 sec @ 113.9 mph). No worries for the ZL1, the Shelby will only have 206 more HP than the Boss :devil:.in the drag race video that has the GT500 vs CTS-V facing off, the Shelby hit 118.9 mph in the 1/4 mile. Car & Driver has the ZL1 hitting it in 119...no doubt the 2013 will kill the ZL1 in a drag race.

Theblacknightls1
01-20-2012, 10:18 AM
in the drag race video that has the GT500 vs CTS-V facing off, the Shelby hit 118.9 mph in the 1/4 mile. Car & Driver has the ZL1 hitting it in 119...no doubt the 2013 will kill the ZL1 in a drag race.

If the Gt500 can hook yes I agree. Hell, If any Gt500 can hook it will give the zl1 a run

MasterTomos
01-20-2012, 11:01 AM
^I would disagree with the 07-09 GT500's. They couldn't come close to a ZL1

NW-99SS
01-20-2012, 12:13 PM
As I would expect, the ZL1 outperformed the Boss. And it performed very well.:nod:

Not to discredit the ZL1 or the article, but the Boss has run quicker times than in the article on two occasions (base Boss and Boss LS), times which are also quicker than the ZL1's time. Just throwing it on the fire...:P:jest:

Not much of a point really, different day, different temps, track conditions, etc.....

JHL88
01-20-2012, 12:18 PM
If the Gt500 can hook yes I agree. Hell, If any Gt500 can hook it will give the zl1 a run

nnnegative

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 12:34 PM
For those of you who think the ZL1 won't wax the ass of the current Gt500. What I find curious is how the GT500 got magically faster when they ran it against the CTS-V. The times I have seen them run at the track is similar to this for stock or close to stock GT500's.

http://youtu.be/_C9zanLcpXY

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 12:44 PM
For those of you who think the ZL1 won't wax the ass of the current Gt500. What I find curious is how the GT500 got magically faster when they ran it against the CTS-V. The times I have seen them run at the track is similar to this for stock or close to stock GT500's.



Because it doesn't matter what YOU see. We've established already that nobody at your track can drive, apparently.

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 12:45 PM
and another

http://youtu.be/5rJhgxyWVDo

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 12:48 PM
Because it doesn't matter what YOU see. We've established already that nobody at your track can drive, apparently.

Yea your right. Actual being and seeing does not compare to your fantisies.

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 01:13 PM
Yea your right. Actual being and seeing does not compare to your fantisies.

Yeah, those other pesky 49 states and thousands of drivers. And since you want to say simple shit like that...it's "you're," and "fantasies."

;)

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 01:22 PM
Yeah, those other pesky 49 states and thousands of drivers. And since you want to say simple shit like that...it's "you're," and "fantasies."

;)

What??? Can't take it when someone proves you wrong bitch.

gocartone
01-20-2012, 01:24 PM
As I would expect, the ZL1 outperformed the Boss. And it performed very well.:nod:

Not to discredit the ZL1 or the article, but the Boss has run quicker times than in the article on two occasions (base Boss and Boss LS), times which are also quicker than the ZL1's time. Just throwing it on the fire...:P:jest:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the same guy (the test driver) that loved the numb feeling of the GTR and hated the raw feeling of the Z06? Maybe they should hire someone else to do the test driving :lol:

Because it doesn't matter what YOU see. We've established already that nobody at your track can drive a Ford, apparently.

Fixed :D

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 01:49 PM
What??? Can't take it when someone proves you wrong bitch.

:lol: You simple little man. You can't "prove me wrong," by posting other journalist times that are slower than the car's potential. All that shows is a different day, a different track, and a different driver. "Well they run slower at my track" isn't a reasonable argument.

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 01:57 PM
Because it doesn't matter what YOU see. We've established already that nobody at your track can drive, apparently.
Just to show you what a whiney bitch you are.....again
:lol: You simple little man. You can't "prove me wrong," by posting other journalist times that are slower than the car's potential. All that shows is a different day, a different track, and a different driver. "Well they run slower at my track" isn't a reasonable argument.

I said comparible times from what I've seen. Just so ya know MIR is one of my tracks.

The "journalist" times seem to be right on par on the CAMARO.....ain't that a bitch.

1QWIKZ
01-20-2012, 02:02 PM
For those of you who think the ZL1 won't wax the ass of the current Gt500. What I find curious is how the GT500 got magically faster when they ran it against the CTS-V. The times I have seen them run at the track is similar to this for stock or close to stock GT500's.

http://youtu.be/_C9zanLcpXY

you, sir, apparently don't know the competition well. the video you posted was a 2010 GT500 with the iron block, the one racing the CTS-V is a 2011+ GT500 with the aluminum block +track pack. its amazing to see all the hypocrisy going on(well, not really amazing) when it comes to magazine testing of the camaro. when the 2011 mustang gt came out and was stomping the camaro's ass, everyone called BS on the magazines' testing procedures/drivers/etc. now that the ZL1 comes out and edges out the LS Boss on a magainze test, everyone on this site is holding it as gospel.:sack:

BLUE OVAL TURBO
01-20-2012, 02:08 PM
The article was entertaining ..BUT....... I would have preferred them test the Shelby GT500 PP as well as the Laguna Seca Boss 302 against the ZL1 .

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Just posting what I found that would be comparible. It is the 540hp gt500. Hell the rag mag times has tested the Boss to be faster than the GT500....in the 1/4. I take it all with a grain of salt till I see it with my own eyes. But the 2 I posted seem to be right on.

1QWIKZ
01-20-2012, 02:14 PM
Just posting what I found that would be comparible. It is the 540hp gt500. Hell the rag mag times has tested the Boss to be faster than the GT500....in the 1/4. I take it all with a grain of salt till I see it with my own eyes. But the 2 I posted seem to be right on.

Right on with what??? Are u saying that a SS can give a GT500 a run for its money? Wow, gimme one of those SS factory freaks if thats the case...cuz as far as I have seen, an SS can't beat a GT..muchless a GT500

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 02:24 PM
Arguing with him is pointless. He's in a different world.

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 02:43 PM
Right on with what??? Are u saying that a SS can give a GT500 a run for its money? Wow, gimme one of those SS factory freaks if thats the case...cuz as far as I have seen, an SS can't beat a GT..muchless a GT500
Please feel free to quote where I said that.
My buddy's 2012 SS Camaro ran a 12.9 @ 110.9 completely stock with 1300 miles, I'm sure it will get faster with break-in. All the gt500's I have seen has had atleast drag radials and have been between 12.7-11.8. Seems very similar results to me with the GT500 being faster.
Arguing with him is pointless. He's in a different world.

Yep....it's called reality. You should get off the net and try it sometime.:owned:

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 02:48 PM
Please feel free to quote where I said that.
My buddy's 2012 SS Camaro ran a 12.9 @ 110.9 completely stock with 1300 miles, I'm sure it will get faster with break-in. All the gt500's I have seen has had atleast drag radials and have been between 12.7-11.8. Seems very similar results to me with the GT500 being faster.


Yep....it's called reality. You should get off the net and try it sometime.:owned:

So in your mind, GT500s are high 12s cars, because that's what you have personally seen? I'm not the only person telling you that thought process is flawed. But you just don't seem to understand.

Edit: Wait a sec, re-read what you said... 12.7-11.8? You don't think maybe that 12.8 was just a shitty driver? You're really gonna say that a time spread as large as that, is "similar" to a car that ran a 12.9, and only has potential to get a couple/few tenths faster?

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 02:54 PM
I do tend to go by what my eyes have seen, so yes if that is flawed then I guess I'm flawed.....am I the only one?

What don't I understand???? Is what I read on the et boards at the track wrong?.....Are these testers in the vid's I posted wrong? They seem to be right-on with the Camaro.

Please help me see threw my blindness and lack of understanding.:eyes:

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 03:00 PM
You simply ignore times that people run everywhere else in the country. To get a realistic idea of what a car is *capable* of, you need to take into account what all sorts of people are running. Cuz guess what? All this stuff you are saying is nothing but "internet times" too. Just because it didn't happen at your track, doesn't make it any less "real-world."

88blackgt
01-20-2012, 03:23 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the same guy (the test driver) that loved the numb feeling of the GTR and hated the raw feeling of the Z06? Maybe they should hire someone else to do the test driving :lol:


I commented on that as well. His comments on the Boss seem to be the opposite of what every other tester has said, including other MT testers. MT had it in contention for "driver car of the year" lol.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1108_ford_mustang_boss_302_laguna_seca_2011_best_d rivers_car_contender/

1QWIKZ
01-20-2012, 04:21 PM
I commented on that as well. His comments on the Boss seem to be the opposite of what every other tester has said, including other MT testers. MT had it in contention for "driver car of the year" lol.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/1108_ford_mustang_boss_302_laguna_seca_2011_best_d rivers_car_contender/

OK... I guess I will be the first to say. ZL1 vs LS Boss test was BS. let the flamming begin.

1QWIKZ
01-20-2012, 04:59 PM
Arguing with him is pointless. He's in a different world.

Starting to see that too...and i thought i was delusional

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 05:41 PM
So in your mind, GT500s are high 12s cars, because that's what you have personally seen? I'm not the only person telling you that thought process is flawed. But you just don't seem to understand.

Edit: Wait a sec, re-read what you said... 12.7-11.8? You don't think maybe that 12.8 was just a shitty driver? You're really gonna say that a time spread as large as that, is "similar" to a car that ran a 12.9, and only has potential to get a couple/few tenths faster?
Maybe you should reread it again and notice where I said all were on a drag radial....that means not stock. 2 of the 3 definitly had atleast exhaust and only 1 made it to the high 11's. I guess you've never heard of modifications.

You simply ignore times that people run everywhere else in the country. To get a realistic idea of what a car is *capable* of, you need to take into account what all sorts of people are running. Cuz guess what? All this stuff you are saying is nothing but "internet times" too. Just because it didn't happen at your track, doesn't make it any less "real-world."
I know there are other times on the cars but I was comparing same day, same track which is the only way to keep it somewhat accurate. We are talking stock cars not what they are "capable" of. The record for a stock 5th gen is 12.6.....by your standards that is what it is "capable" of??????

So your saying the times I have seen at the track with my own eyes are "internet times"?
Starting to see that too...and i thought i was delusional

You must be as twisted as he is.

gocartone
01-20-2012, 06:10 PM
You must be as twisted as he is.

:lol:

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 07:17 PM
Maybe you should reread it again and notice where I said all were on a drag radial....that means not stock. 2 of the 3 definitly had atleast exhaust and only 1 made it to the high 11's. I guess you've never heard of modifications.


I know there are other times on the cars but I was comparing same day, same track which is the only way to keep it somewhat accurate. We are talking stock cars not what they are "capable" of. The record for a stock 5th gen is 12.6.....by your standards that is what it is "capable" of??????

So your saying the times I have seen at the track with my own eyes are "internet times"?


You must be as twisted as he is.
Yes, at a good track with good DA, a well-driven 6spd 5th gen is a mid-high 12s car. Did you not know that? And yes, since YOU are telling ME about times you witnessed, and we are on the internet, technically this is no different than me going on Google and searching. And since you weren't even the one running the times in question, it's second-hand internet information. And I would disregard most of what you say, just like I do now. I would much rather know what a car is capable of from looking at the times that people all across the country run, instead of only what I see. Because you, me, and Jesus all know that 12.8 from a GT500 with drag radials is pitiful. So while you might keep it in the back of your mind that they apparently aren't that easy to launch, you also need to be able to understand what they CAN do in the right hands. And you also need to understand the differences between the years...

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 07:24 PM
I understand all that. No one ever said what the best times were in the country for a "stock" GT500 which can also be skewed by great da and great track prep. I was comparing same day same track just as the magizines did. Which seems on par.

Irunelevens
01-20-2012, 07:27 PM
And the entire point was, they might seem on par for what YOU see. But that only means something to YOU.

gocartone
01-20-2012, 07:55 PM
I was comparing same day same track just as the magizines did. Which seems on par.

But different drivers, which makes a WAY bigger difference than the track and conditions do. I was (full bolt-ons) outrunning a C6 Z06 at the track all day long, same track same day, does that mean my car is quicker than his? :bang:

HioSSilver
01-20-2012, 08:03 PM
I under the different drivers. The mags should use the same drivers, I'm sure they switch off when they're testing these things. Actual track results will very.....drivers will very,. Not evrything is gonna be perfect for everybody......jesus christ you guys nit pick shit to death. Sometimes shit is what it is.

ThisBlood147
01-20-2012, 09:25 PM
This entire debate is pointless. The Boss is a throwback, track-focused trim level that falls in between the GT and the GT500. The ZL1 is going to be the top dog Camaro. The GT500 has had the King of Hill status to itself for nearly 5 years now...and with very little fan fair as far as I can tell. The ZL1 coming onto the scene will just make things more interesting. The fanboys can soil themselves over these cars and get their panties in a bunch arguing with each other till their blue in the face over which car will reign supreme on race track X or Y. The rest of us will just sit back and think..."shit, these damn cars are getting fast".

The day that the losing car on a given track day has to have its production line shut down permanently as a consequence is the day that these fanboy debates will hold water. Until that day, it's just verbal masturbation. I'll repeat something I always say....buy what you like, and stop trying to force everyone else to be impressed with you for your choice.

LS1-450
01-21-2012, 12:39 PM
Can't we all just get along?

Let's keep in mind that we are living in an era of supreme street car performance. There was a time in the 80's when it seemed this time would never exist. We are truly fortunate.

HioSSilver
01-21-2012, 12:47 PM
Can't we all just get along?

Let's keep in mind that we are living in an era of supreme street car performance. There was a time in the 80's when it seemed this time would never exist. We are truly fortunate.

I can live with that!:cheers:

I just can't understand why these guys think this Ford shit is so unbeatable.

Irunelevens
01-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Nobody thinks that.

UltraZLS1
01-21-2012, 02:27 PM
I can live with that!:cheers:

I just can't understand why these guys think this Ford shit is so unbeatable.

Like how when road and track tested the GT and SS on a road course and the SS lost by .1? And now all we hear is that the SS handles like garbage and the GT is supreme? Now we have a ZL1 beating the BOSS laguna seca by 2.4 seconds per lap and it is too close? All you can do is shake your head and move on.
Now that the SS has the FE4 suspension I would suspect it will pick up a lot more than .1 per lap and now out-handle the GT...something else that is never mentioned. Are they ever going to re-test them on a road course against each other? The 5th gen platform is an awesome handler...they just went a bit too conservative at first and needed some time to dial it in.
After I changed the springs and sways on my car the handling is amazing. It felt decent enough stock...but now it is great.

HioSSilver
01-21-2012, 02:47 PM
Like how when road and track tested the GT and SS on a road course and the SS lost by .1? And now all we hear is that the SS handles like garbage and the GT is supreme? Now we have a ZL1 beating the BOSS laguna seca by 2.4 seconds per lap and it is too close? All you can do is shake your head and move on.
Now that the SS has the FE4 suspension I would suspect it will pick up a lot more than .1 per lap and now out-handle the GT...something else that is never mentioned. Are they ever going to re-test them on a road course against each other? The 5th gen platform is an awesome handler...they just went a bit too conservative at first and needed some time to dial it in.
After I changed the springs and sways on my car the handling is amazing. It felt decent enough stock...but now it is great.

I've mentioned it...but that goes right over their heads. I drove my buddies new 12 fe4 car on some backroads the other week. It's the best handleing car I have driven short of race cars.

FYI ....I used to do some independant acceleration testing for BMW, M3's, M5's, Z3's...their whole line really. So yes I know how good those cars are.

2 FASST SS
01-22-2012, 03:44 AM
Interesting the comments on the Boss, they seem almost the opposite of other reviews I've seen. Good job by the ZL1. I'd be interested to see what the actual track times are and how they compare.

+1 :sack:

HardBlu
01-22-2012, 09:43 PM
Did we forget that the ZL1 should be compared to the GT500 and the SS should be compared to the BOSS. If that was the game, the BOSS wins because it's already lighter and quicker and Ford has an over weight GT500 competing with the Corvette upper line, which IMO should be all alone in that field and should be competing with the exotic rods of the world.

I also think GM could use the "new" CTS-V as a GT500 competitor too.

My 2 cents

UltraZLS1
01-22-2012, 11:11 PM
Did we forget that the ZL1 should be compared to the GT500 and the SS should be compared to the BOSS. If that was the game, the BOSS wins because it's already lighter and quicker and Ford has an over weight GT500 competing with the Corvette upper line, which IMO should be all alone in that field and should be competing with the exotic rods of the world.

I also think GM could use the "new" CTS-V as a GT500 competitor too.

My 2 cents

The BOSS Laguna Seca has an MSRP of 48k. You think it should be compared to an SS that starts at 31k?

The MSRP of the ZL1 is 55k. The BOSS is much closer in price (more than double the difference actually)to the ZL1 than the SS.

The mags even compared the SS to the GT500 in 2010 LMAO. I took it as more of a compliment personally.

Irunelevens
01-22-2012, 11:19 PM
A regular Boss against the LE4 Camaro sounds just fine.

MasterTomos
01-22-2012, 11:20 PM
Everyone needs to remember that GM already setpped on their own toes by making a Camaro that will outperform a corvette. Thats a huge GM no-no and one reason why they stopped producing the GNX and Typhoon/Syclone.

I'd say between the companies it goes:

SS<GT<BOSS<Laguna Seca<ZL1<Gran Sport<2013 GT500<Z06 carbon<ZR1



Also, has anyone noticed the GT500 doesn't exist yet? Meaning until it does actually debut and start production, the ZL1 is the fastest and best bang for the buck car $55k and under. ;)

GM fans have a few months to glote :lol:

A regular Boss against the LE4 Camaro sounds just fine.

You mean the 2012 FE4 suspension?

Irunelevens
01-22-2012, 11:26 PM
There we go. I knew it was something that ended in "E4" :lol:

MasterTomos
01-22-2012, 11:33 PM
1LE=stripper model fbodys
LE1/LE2/LE3=cylinder heads ported by Lloyd Elliot
F1A=Procharger
FE4=Corvette and (now) 5th gen Camaro suspension

:lol: :lol: :lol:

gocartone
01-22-2012, 11:35 PM
Also, has anyone noticed the GT500 doesn't exist yet? Meaning until it does actually debut and start production, the ZL1 is the fastest and best bang for the buck car $55k and under. ;)

GM fans have a few months to glote :lol:



The current GT500 hasn't been put against a ZL1 yet, I think it's going to be about even with the ZL1 everywhere when they finally do test the two. Trap speeds on the ZL1 are the same as the current GT500, and the GT500 still beats the Boss LS around the track, so GM fans can't even say that yet.

Urban Legend
01-23-2012, 12:22 AM
Blah, blah, blah. I'll smoke the zl1, and the gt 500 with my bike all day. Straight, turns, etc.

Nick V.
01-23-2012, 12:32 AM
my ss runs on broken dreams. and as many as i have it should be able to dust anything...

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/003/619/Untitled-1.jpg

JUSTINSWS6
01-23-2012, 08:59 AM
Lol is that why you want a c6z so bad?

LS1LT1
01-23-2012, 04:59 PM
and the SS should be compared to the BOSS.But then what should the base Mustang GT be compared to/with, the Camaro V6?:huh: :lol: ;)

The Camaro SS gets grouped in with the Mustang GT, not with the Boss 302 or certainly not with the Boss 302 Laguna Seca version, :nod: that will hopefully be some future Camaro's (Z28?) job. :drive:

HardBlu
01-24-2012, 12:40 AM
Thats the problem, saying the BOSS is out of the SS class because it's higher priced and track ready with 22 more HP is a easy way out for saying I can't compete -- and it's ok ...to settle for the GT with 10 less hp when we know the results at the track. Maybe so, so maybe GM has a hole in their line up and should create an RPO package that should line up with the BOSS. But they don't, so your stuck with the SS and the 422 hp. When you line up against the BOSS at the light are you going to give him the wave NOT TO RACE so you can wait for the GT....give me a break! Who ever mentioned the v6 is smoking and to wait for the Z28, it ain't happening.

To give the Camaro the respect it deserves the ZL1 should be compared to the S/C line up of Mustangs regardless of names. GM let Ford build a Mustang to compete with the Vette and now they are reacting.

In the old days, GM would put some RPO package together to stay competitive or a dealer, keeping it simple. You brought your Camaro SS, ZL1, RS, COPO, Z28, whatever and raced against the Ford Mustang line, GT, BOSS, whatever.

To much analyzing down to the knats ass, another words excuses. GM needs to get create in this particular tight market. I would love to walk in and have the option to order a base with a LS3 RPO engine option that I can pick 427ci with 450 or 475 hp special COPO with 1LE supsension, etc. They can keep the bing options.

As for the Vette, the big boys are going to buy the ones with more HP and others will settled for less - basic hp options. These are people that just want to say they have a Vette.

Sorry for the long vent...:)

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 12:46 AM
The GT is faster than the SS...

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 02:27 AM
The GT is faster than the SS...

On the strip yes it has a few tenth advantage.

Being that the non fe4 SS from 2010 and 2011 only lost to the GT in the last road test I seen by .1 per lap I wouldnt be surprised if the 2012 SS is faster on a road course. They revised the suspension quite a bit and the fe4 suspension is standard on the 2012 SS.

I would like to see them test the 2012 SS and 2012 GT on a road course again and see what happens. I wouldnt be surprised if the camaro won handily.

If you were to actually do an entire race on a road course, according to Pedders (gm licensed manufacturer of suspension parts, they also make parts for the mustang) the GT wouldnt make it more than a couple laps anyway before the brakes failed...supposedly they are far inferior to the set up on the camaro. Pedders did a comprehensive test and posted the results on camaro 5.
After a couple laps the GTs brakes were beginning to fail (yes the brembo package) and the camaro was doing well.

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 02:34 AM
On the strip yes it has a few tenth advantage.

Being that the non fe4 SS from 2010 and 2011 only lost to the GT in the last road test I seen by .1 per lap I wouldnt be surprised if the 2012 SS is faster on a road course. They revised the suspension quite a bit and the fe4 suspension is standard on the 2012 SS.

I would like to see them test the 2012 SS and 2012 GT on a road course again and see what happens. I wouldnt be surprised if the camaro won handily.

If you were to actually do an entire race on a road course, according to Pedders (gm licensed manufacturer of suspension parts, they also make parts for the mustang) the GT wouldnt make it more than a couple laps anyway before the brakes failed...supposedly they are far inferior to the set up on the camaro. Pedders did a comprehensive test and posted the results on camaro 5.
After a couple laps the GTs brakes were beginning to fail (yes the brembo package) and the camaro was doing well.

We'll see. But he was talking about straight line.

LS1LT1
01-24-2012, 03:59 AM
so your stuck with the SS and the 422 hp.426hp actually (400 in the automatic). :)
And there are worse things in the world than "being stuck with" 426hp. :D




When you line up against the BOSS at the light are you going to give him the wave NOT TO RACE so you can wait for the GT....give me a break!Not sure if I'm understanding your logic here...if a ZL1 pulls up to a Mustang GT at a light, is the GT driver going to wave him on as well so he can wait for an SS?:huh:
Not sure I'm following you here, the cars are either well matched (be it in price or power output/aspiration) in the markeplace or they're not.
I do agree that there is currently a gap in the Camaro line up though, they have no true Boss 302 (fast, road racing oriented, naturally aspirated, under $41k etc.) competitor.




and to wait for the Z28, it ain't happening.You have factual confirmation of this?

MasterTomos
01-24-2012, 11:22 AM
Thats the problem, saying the BOSS is out of the SS class because it's higher priced and track ready with 22 more HP is a easy way out for saying I can't compete -- and it's ok ...to settle for the GT with 10 less hp when we know the results at the track. Maybe so, so maybe GM has a hole in their line up and should create an RPO package that should line up with the BOSS. But they don't, so your stuck with the SS and the 422 hp. When you line up against the BOSS at the light are you going to give him the wave NOT TO RACE so you can wait for the GT....give me a break! Who ever mentioned the v6 is smoking and to wait for the Z28, it ain't happening.To give the Camaro the respect it deserves the ZL1 should be compared to the S/C line up of Mustangs regardless of names. GM let Ford build a Mustang to compete with the Vette and now they are reacting.

In the old days, GM would put some RPO package together to stay competitive or a dealer, keeping it simple. You brought your Camaro SS, ZL1, RS, COPO, Z28, whatever and raced against the Ford Mustang line, GT, BOSS, whatever.

To much analyzing down to the knats ass, another words excuses. GM needs to get create in this particular tight market. I would love to walk in and have the option to order a base with a LS3 RPO engine option that I can pick 427ci with 450 or 475 hp special COPO with 1LE supsension, etc. They can keep the bing options.
As for the Vette, the big boys are going to buy the ones with more HP and others will settled for less - basic hp options. These are people that just want to say they have a Vette.

Sorry for the long vent...:)

"back in the day" a car could go from concept to production in >6 months. Not even close to being true anymore so that's why GM isn't being "creative" as you put it.

That being said, I highly doubt the Camaro is done being expanded on. I would not be suprised if a Z28 model came out to compete with the boss.

I for one am glad there isn't 50 billion variants of the Camaro like there is the Mustang. They're keeping it simple yet creative, with a few special packages here and there and a pretty simple lineup.

SSCamaro99_3
01-24-2012, 12:32 PM
To much analyzing down to the knats ass, another words excuses. GM needs to get create in this particular tight market. I would love to walk in and have the option to order a base with a LS3 RPO engine option that I can pick 427ci with 450 or 475 hp special COPO with 1LE supsension, etc. They can keep the bing options.


They would have to develop a tune, EPA certify, and crash test each of those options seperately. That's a lot of cost for the 6 guys that are going to come in and order a steel wheel, cloth, 450 hp 427 ci package; and the other 8 that will order the same package with 475 hp.

disclaimer: having a little fun with the take rate for illustrative purposes.

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 01:00 PM
"back in the day" a car could go from concept to production in >6 months. Not even close to being true anymore so that's why GM isn't being "creative" as you put it.

That being said, I highly doubt the Camaro is done being expanded on. I would not be suprised if a Z28 model came out to compete with the boss.

I for one am glad there isn't 50 billion variants of the Camaro like there is the Mustang. They're keeping it simple yet creative, with a few special packages here and there and a pretty simple lineup.

I agree.

Also...GM produces 5 variants of the corvette as well. Ford only has the mustang to produce so it would only be logical they would offer more variations.
GM has a camaro v6, camaro ss, camaro zl1, regular corvette, corvette grand sport, corvette zo6, zo6 carbon, and corvette zr1. I think they may produce something like a z28 eventually though.

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 01:14 PM
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1203_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2012_ford_mustan g_boss_302_laguna_seca/

Like one should expect, the ZL1 did better at Laguna Seca. Good stuff GM. Next matchup... Well, we all know what that will be.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-test-review

Car and Driver tested it at Indy in the 1/4 mile. 12.3 @ 119. The track was crap so we can assume a .1 or .2 second decrese in time with better conditions. We will see a stock ZL1 run 11s one day, just not that day.


looks to me like they ran it at inde motorsports park, not laguna.

of course a $54k 580hp car is going to hammer a $47k 444hp car. but wait...did it really hammer it, or just beat it a little?

while it's impressive on the surface.......it's not that impressive at all, although i'll say good job on them finally waking up and building a good car.

gocartone
01-24-2012, 01:20 PM
I would like to see them test the 2012 SS and 2012 GT on a road course again and see what happens. I wouldnt be surprised if the camaro won handily.



I think the new suspension package on the Camaro should be tested against the Boss (non LS) rather than the GT, unless it comes standard. I highly doubt you will be able to get one for under $40k, which is what the standard Boss costs.

MeentSS02
01-24-2012, 01:55 PM
looks to me like they ran it at inde motorsports park, not laguna.

of course a $54k 580hp car is going to hammer a $47k 444hp car. but wait...did it really hammer it, or just beat it a little?

while it's impressive on the surface.......it's not that impressive at all, although i'll say good job on them finally waking up and building a good car.

On a course like that, 2.45 seconds is an eternity, especially considering just how good the Boss already is. IMO, it got hammered.

MasterTomos
01-24-2012, 01:59 PM
I agree.

Also...GM produces 5 variants of the corvette as well. Ford only has the mustang to produce so it would only be logical they would offer more variations.
GM has a camaro v6, camaro ss, camaro zl1, regular corvette, corvette grand sport, corvette zo6, zo6 carbon, and corvette zr1. I think they may produce something like a z28 eventually though.

And for 2013, the 427 Convertible ;)

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 02:10 PM
On a course like that, 2.45 seconds is an eternity, especially considering just how good the Boss already is. IMO, it got hammered.

ok......then it hammered a car that isn't even in the same class.......kinda like the vette hammering the shelby. 2 different classes. how does the zl1 stack up to the gt500 that's on the roads right now? after all, that's the one that's in its class.

i don't think there's a version of the camaro to go against either boss really.........i think both of the v8's are about in the class of the gt........perhaps chevy's got something else up their sleeve?

MeentSS02
01-24-2012, 02:18 PM
ok......then it hammered a car that isn't even in the same class.......kinda like the vette hammering the shelby. 2 different classes. how does the zl1 stack up to the gt500 that's on the roads right now? after all, that's the one that's in its class.

i don't think there's a version of the camaro to go against either boss really.........i think both of the v8's are about in the class of the gt........perhaps chevy's got something else up their sleeve?

The BOSS was definitely the correct model to compare to, at least based off this article:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1102_2012_ford_mustang_boss_302_test/viewall.html

It has proven itself to be much more capable than the GT500 around a road course, which is what is being discussed here.

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 02:59 PM
I think the new suspension package on the Camaro should be tested against the Boss (non LS) rather than the GT, unless it comes standard. I highly doubt you will be able to get one for under $40k, which is what the standard Boss costs.

No man... it isnt extra.

The fe4 is standard equipment on all SS models. You can get it on a 31k 1SS. That is why I was saying they should give the camaro another shot at the road course against a 12 GT...it only lost by .1 last time with the original suspension which was far too tame and unbalanced. You wouldnt believe the difference in my car after springs and PFADT sways.

If it is good enough...I think it would be nice to see it up against a Non LS BOSS. But I am guessing it was designed by GM to just edge out the GT. Not sure they would care about going after a Boss with an SS.

We will see.

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 03:13 PM
ok......then it hammered a car that isn't even in the same class.......kinda like the vette hammering the shelby. 2 different classes. how does the zl1 stack up to the gt500 that's on the roads right now? after all, that's the one that's in its class.

i don't think there's a version of the camaro to go against either boss really.........i think both of the v8's are about in the class of the gt........perhaps chevy's got something else up their sleeve?

A purpose built track car with adjustable suspension, track key, a cage, race compound tires and no back seat with an msrp of 48k isnt in the same class as a ZL1 at 55k that comes with full options, a back seat and all creature comforts?
Ford boys would usually cry foul on the no back seat alone.

Parnelli jones would be disappointed to hear you say that lmao. Ford gave it everything they had with the boss from the shows I watched about it...they did everything but nut on the hood when they talked about it.

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 03:40 PM
A purpose built track car with adjustable suspension, track key, a cage, race compound tires and no back seat with an msrp of 48k isnt in the same class as a ZL1 at 55k that comes with full options, a back seat and all creature comforts?
Ford boys would usually cry foul on the no back seat alone.

Parnelli jones would be disappointed to hear you say that lmao. Ford gave it everything they had with the boss from the shows I watched about it...they did everything but nut on the hood when they talked about it.

no need to cry foul. chevy had to pull out all the stops to do this. :D

and you know as well as i do that the back seat in either of these cars is useless.

MasterTomos
01-24-2012, 04:12 PM
no need to cry foul. chevy had to pull out all the stops to do this. :D

and you know as well as i do that the back seat in either of these cars is useless.

I disagree with this. They could have just as easily put the LS9 in there, put racing seats in there and ditched the back seat. But with the ZL1 you still get all the gadgets, creature comforts, and bling, which is nice for most buyers.

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 04:22 PM
A purpose built track car with adjustable suspension, track key, a cage, race compound tires and no back seat with an msrp of 48k isnt in the same class as a ZL1 at 55k that comes with full options, a back seat and all creature comforts?
Ford boys would usually cry foul on the no back seat alone.

Parnelli jones would be disappointed to hear you say that lmao. Ford gave it everything they had with the boss from the shows I watched about it...they did everything but nut on the hood when they talked about it.

No, it's not. The ZL1 and the GT500 are the only cars in their class. Comparing either one to a different model is retarded.

It'llrun
01-24-2012, 04:31 PM
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1203_2012_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_vs_2012_ford_mustan g_boss_302_laguna_seca/

Like one should expect, the ZL1 did better at Laguna Seca. Good stuff GM. Next matchup... Well, we all know what that will be.At Laguna Seca? The track I see from the link is in Arizona... LS is in California... The Mustang tested against the ZL1 in this case is the Laguna Seca, but that's not the track... it looks much like it though.

That said, I think that gap is enough to say the ZL1 will all but certainly also beat the current GT500. The next... Idonno. It's gonna be much more powerful(100 or so) and have what I expect are far stickier tires than it's been using.

I will be the first to say it...I am impressed that it beat the Boss Laguna Seca around the track. The fact that it was faster through all the corners except one says a lot about the suspension and tire choice on the ZL1.That's impressive, no doubt.

Also, has anyone noticed the GT500 doesn't exist yet? Meaning until it does actually debut and start production, the ZL1 is the fastest and best bang for the buck car $55k and under. ;)Huh? When did Ford pull the GT500 from showrooms? I've not seen the 1st ZL1 on a showroom floor and GM says it will be available in the spring(it's winter). So which isn't available yet?

I know, you meant the 2013 GT500, but hey... At least there is a GT500 available. That is, I could go to any number of dealerships and purchase 1 today if I wanted... AND then drive it off the lot the same day, if I wanted. I don't think I can say the same for the Camaro ZL1. Perhaps you can tell me where I can go drive one today??

Btw, does anyone know the pricing for the 2013 GT500? I'm guessing GM gave Ford a reason to bump pricing another 5-7k... Great for Ford and GM... Not great for the customer. Of course, the ZL1 is priced extremely low impo, because it surely has a production cost somewhere near the asking price. The next GT500 will be more of the same, but in a lesser fashion as far as I can tell... I believe it will cost more for GM than Ford to produce their respective model.

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 05:13 PM
I disagree with this. They could have just as easily put the LS9 in there, put racing seats in there and ditched the back seat. But with the ZL1 you still get all the gadgets, creature comforts, and bling, which is nice for most buyers.

nope. they're using electronic suspension from the ctsv? and the supercharger from the top of the line vette i believe?
so they're using higher end stuff with a big engine with a supercharger in order to manage to beat a car with a "whacking great girder" for rear suspension with a little engine that's naturally aspirated.

now, if we go to the gt500, it's still got that same "whacking great girder" for rear suspension, and it's still got a little engine....but at least it's got a supercharger.

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 05:35 PM
no need to cry foul. chevy had to pull out all the stops to do this. :D

and you know as well as i do that the back seat in either of these cars is useless.

They pulled out all the stops but didnt even use an LS9? They only bumped the power less than 30hp from the cts-v and this is only because of a more efficient intercooler. They threw in a motor that has been on the shelf for 4 years.

If they pulled out all the stops wouldnt they pull the seats? how about a roll cage as well? oh and how about some racing compound tires? How about lightening the car? Their is so much more they could have done it is not even funny.

I am not the one crying foul. You are the one who can not accept the fact that a 4100 lb camaro for 7k more with all the options beat a purpose built BOSS mustang weighing 500lbs less. You are crying foul saying they should not be compared. Fair enough...I disagree.

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 05:44 PM
Just for future reference.

If the 2013 GT500 with its performance options (like they always have) costs 5k or more over the ZL1 I will cry foul and the test will mean nothing. And I will point directly to this thread.

And not to mention...it is a 2013 model gt500 vs a 2012 model zl1. The Zl1 could still counter with a 2013 update. Ford is scrambling to catch up. If the 2012 zl1 beats the 2012 GT500 that is all that matters. The only way the gt500 gets any bragging rights is if it is priced within 5k of the zl1 with its options and is the same model year.

We are not allowed any type of leeway in comparison...so I will be just as stupid. I cant wait for the hypocritical comments in the future.

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 05:47 PM
Just for future reference.

If the 2013 GT500 with its performance options (like they always have) costs 5k or more over the ZL1 I will cry foul and the test will mean nothing. And I will point directly to this thread.

And not to mention...it is a 2013 model gt500 vs a 2012 model zl1. The Zl1 could still counter with a 2013 update. Ford is scrambling to catch up. If the 2012 zl1 beats the 2012 GT500 that is all that matters. The only way the gt500 gets any bragging rights is if it is priced within 5k of the zl1 with its options and is the same model year.

We are not allowed any type of leeway in comparison...so I will be just as stupid. I cant wait for the hypocritical comments in the future.

bolded...you've got that slightly backwards. it wasn't ford that had to add a supercharger and electronic suspension to beat the camaro, but rather chevy that had to do that to beat a mustang. :D

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 05:51 PM
They pulled out all the stops but didnt even use an LS9? They only bumped the power less than 30hp from the cts-v and this is only because of a more efficient intercooler. They threw in a motor that has been on the shelf for 4 years.

If they pulled out all the stops wouldnt they pull the seats? how about a roll cage as well? oh and how about some racing compound tires? How about lightening the car? Their is so much more they could have done it is not even funny.

I am not the one crying foul. You are the one who can not accept the fact that a 4100 lb camaro for 7k more with all the options beat a purpose built BOSS mustang weighing 500lbs less. You are crying foul saying they should not be compared. Fair enough...I disagree.

They simply aren't competitors. Period.

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 05:57 PM
bolded...you've got that slightly backwards. it wasn't ford that had to add a supercharger and electronic suspension to beat the camaro, but rather chevy that had to do that to beat a mustang. :D

The mustang the zl1 beats has a supercharger as well. If you dont think it will beat a 2012 GT500 you are crazy. It was benchmarked to do just that. And it has NEVER run away from a boss like the zl1 did in any test.

And from a few tests I have seen...ford beat themselves without adding a supercharger...how freaking stupid is that?

And since when does a supercharger help in the turns?

Keep trying.

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 06:01 PM
They simply aren't competitors. Period.
Why...because you said so? A magazine who compares cars for a living seems to think it was valid enough to compare them. I think they have more of a say than you do whether you like it or not.

I disagree. I think any two cars priced within 7k of each other can be compared.

The SS gets compared to the 392 and the price difference is greater. The SS was compared to the gt500 and the price difference was nearly 20k.

7k would keep you from buying another car with far superior performance? It would not for me personally. Therefor I see them as competitors.

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 06:13 PM
Why...because you said so? A magazine who compares cars for a living seems to think it was valid enough to compare them. I think they have more of a say than you do whether you like it or not.

I disagree. I think any two cars priced within 7k of each other can be compared.

The SS gets compared to the 392 and the price difference is greater. The SS was compared to the gt500 and the price difference was nearly 20k.

It's common sense. The GT and SS are competitors, the GT500 and ZL1 are competitors. DIRECT competitors. Now if Chevrolet finally decides to release a track-oriented version of the Camaro in the spirit of the Boss Mustangs, they will be direct competitors. The GT500 is the reason the ZL1 exists. For the time being, the Boss Mustangs have no direct competitors. The GT500 vs. SS comparison was dumb, and the SRT-8 is compared to the Mustang GT and Camaro SS because comparing it to the GT500 would be embarrassing. Car magazines and television shows compare cars all the time that shouldn't really be compared.

UltraZLS1
01-24-2012, 06:28 PM
It's common sense. The GT and SS are competitors, the GT500 and ZL1 are competitors. DIRECT competitors. Now if Chevrolet finally decides to release a track-oriented version of the Camaro in the spirit of the Boss Mustangs, they will be direct competitors. The GT500 is the reason the ZL1 exists. For the time being, the Boss Mustangs have no direct competitors. The GT500 vs. SS comparison was dumb, and the SRT-8 is compared to the Mustang GT and Camaro SS because comparing it to the GT500 would be embarrassing. Car magazines and television shows compare cars all the time that shouldn't really be compared.

All good points. I just happen to think the price was close enough that the test was reasonably fair. And while not direct competitors (I agree) I think they are competitors in a sense that the price isnt far off. The fact that the BOSS has been proven to be just as capable on a road course as a gt500 in some instances...it is all the more validating/rewarding for the zl1 crowd.

For the most part I am arguing about this tonight for the sake of arguing and because I am bored. I have no stake in either ZL1, BOSS or GT500...I could really care less what happens for the most part.

thanks for the entertainment though :engarde:

MasterTomos
01-24-2012, 06:28 PM
nope. they're using electronic suspension from the ctsv? and the supercharger from the top of the line vette i believe?
so they're using higher end stuff with a big engine with a supercharger in order to manage to beat a car with a "whacking great girder" for rear suspension with a little engine that's naturally aspirated.

now, if we go to the gt500, it's still got that same "whacking great girder" for rear suspension, and it's still got a little engine....but at least it's got a supercharger.

The camaro is receiving the same suspension that the CTS-V and ZR1 will use, it will become standard on their high end performance cars yes. But the ZL1 uses a 1.9L "TVS1900" supercharger, whereas the LS9/ZR1 uses a 2.3 "TVS2300" iirc

And the ZL1 wasn't just made to carve corners. It's got a full, dare I say "luxury", interior too. I doubt all the suede, leather, buttons, heads up display, premium sound/subs, ect were done with performance and track times in mind.


At Laguna Seca? The track I see from the link is in Arizona... LS is in California... The Mustang tested against the ZL1 in this case is the Laguna Seca, but that's not the track... it looks much like it though.

That said, I think that gap is enough to say the ZL1 will all but certainly also beat the current GT500. The next... Idonno. It's gonna be much more powerful(100 or so) and have what I expect are far stickier tires than it's been using.

That's impressive, no doubt.

Huh? When did Ford pull the GT500 from showrooms? I've not seen the 1st ZL1 on a showroom floor and GM says it will be available in the spring(it's winter). So which isn't available yet?

I know, you meant the 2013 GT500, but hey... At least there is a GT500 available. That is, I could go to any number of dealerships and purchase 1 today if I wanted... AND then drive it off the lot the same day, if I wanted. I don't think I can say the same for the Camaro ZL1. Perhaps you can tell me where I can go drive one today??

Btw, does anyone know the pricing for the 2013 GT500? I'm guessing GM gave Ford a reason to bump pricing another 5-7k... Great for Ford and GM... Not great for the customer. Of course, the ZL1 is priced extremely low impo, because it surely has a production cost somewhere near the asking price. The next GT500 will be more of the same, but in a lesser fashion as far as I can tell... I believe it will cost more for GM than Ford to produce their respective model.

Uh, the boss 302LS has out performed the 2012 GT500 on many tracks if Im not mistaken? So... simple logic leads me to believe the 2012 GT500 won't hang with the ZL1 if the BossLS couldn't...

Also, the last I saw the 2013 GT500 was still planning on running the same shitty 285 tires they have since 2007 that didn't hook up with 500hp, let alone 650.

They haven't "pulled" the GT500's out of showrooms, nor did I imply this because I was referencing the 2013 GT500 which isn't produced or even tested yet. I believe the ZL1 would have to be produced in order to test it if I'm not mistaken? Why don't you go down to the dealership and see which you can order? ZL1 orders/allocations went in weeks ago in mid december, they'll start rolling in to show rooms in the first part of February. I wouldn't call February "spring", but hey, dealerships know everything right? ;)

The pricing for the 2013 GT500 is hiding along with all of the Nurburgring times :secret2:

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 06:31 PM
All good points. I just happen to think the price was close enough that the test was reasonably fair. And while not direct competitors (I agree) I think they are competitors in a sense that the price isnt far off. The fact that the BOSS has been proven to be just as capable on a road course as a gt500 in some instances...it is all the more validating/rewarding for the zl1 crowd.

For the most part I am arguing about this tonight for the sake of arguing and because I am bored. I have no stake in either ZL1, BOSS or GT500...I could really care less what happens for the most part.

thanks for the entertainment though :engarde:

No problem :cheers:

D3VIL
01-24-2012, 06:40 PM
Gotta question. Didn't the BOSS in couple of tests beat the GT500? Or was it just super close?

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 06:41 PM
Depends on the track.

JD_AMG
01-24-2012, 06:43 PM
nope.
If you think this car isn't being held back (performance trade off for comfort/livability) some then you are either completely naive or a ford fanboy.

they're using electronic suspension from the ctsv?

Electronic dampers they've used all the way back on the C5 Corvette (revised versions on the new GM cars obviously).
These aid in both ride and handling, not a strait up performance piece.


and the supercharger from the top of the line vette i believe?
But not the top of the line engine? - they are holding back...


so they're using higher end stuff with a big engine with a supercharger in order to manage to beat a car with a "whacking great girder" for rear suspension with a little engine that's naturally aspirated.
They are using a smaller engine with a supercharger, modern day suspension with advanced shocks, vs a smaller/lighter car with a bigger engine (dont confuse displacement with size), weight reduction, chassis bracing, and track tuned suspension (although yes, a solid axle).

Gm could have stripped the car and added more chassis bracing, stickier tires, more power, more aggressive brakes, suspension etc etc etc. The ZL1, like almost all street cars, is being held back in performance for comfort street ability.

MeentSS02
01-24-2012, 06:49 PM
I guess I'm not following how it wasn't a fair comparison. They took the best roundy-round Mustang Ford had to offer and put it up against the ZL1. A 2.2 mile track isn't really big enough for the extra power to make a huge difference.

If they had put it up against the GT500 on that same course, everyone would complain that they didn't test it against the Boss, which has fared better in testing on similar size tracks vs. the GT500.

D3VIL
01-24-2012, 06:51 PM
Depends on the track.

Really? Depending on which track has more straight aways so the gt500 can utalize it's hp advantage... but in more twisties BOSS has won? I think with this said, ford will need to make some major upgrades to the 2013 model to beat the ZL1 at a track then.

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 07:03 PM
I guess I'm not following how it wasn't a fair comparison. They took the best roundy-round Mustang Ford had to offer and put it up against the ZL1. A 2.2 mile track isn't really big enough for the extra power to make a huge difference.

If they had put it up against the GT500 on that same course, everyone would complain that they didn't test it against the Boss, which has fared better in testing on similar size tracks vs. the GT500.

Really? Depending on which track has more straight aways so the gt500 can utalize it's hp advantage... but in more twisties BOSS has won? I think with this said, ford will need to make some major upgrades to the 2013 model to beat the ZL1 at a track then.

The GT500 bested the Laguna Seca at Fontana, which is 1.6 miles, by half a second. The 2013 has extensive improvements in all areas. It's going to be a competitor, for sure.

MI-Z/28
01-24-2012, 07:04 PM
Really? Depending on which track has more straight aways so the gt500 can utalize it's hp advantage... but in more twisties BOSS has won? I think with this said, ford will need to make some major upgrades to the 2013 model to beat the ZL1 at a track then.

Boss LS has also taken down a BMW M3. Just wanted to throw that out there. Carry on. :)

MI-Z/28
01-24-2012, 07:06 PM
The GT500 bested the Laguna Seca at Fontana, which is 1.6 miles, by half a second. The 2013 has extensive improvements in all areas. It's going to be a competitor, for sure.

'13 GT500 will definitely be a beast, and I would prefer it over a ZL1 simply because I would utilize the straight line speed more than the cornering abilities that the ZL1 provides. I really hope I get to see both cars on the road next summer. :cool:

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 07:07 PM
Boss LS has also taken down a BMW M3. Just wanted to throw that out there. Carry on. :)

And the Corvette Grand Sport. Which, conveniently, is about $7,000 more expensive. :secret2:

MI-Z/28
01-24-2012, 07:12 PM
And the Corvette Grand Sport. Which, conveniently, is about $7,000 more expensive. :secret2:

Boss is a sick car. If I was in the market for a new vehicle right now it would definitely be my choice (non LS model). Price, performance, and arguably the last raw muscle car made. I like NA motors and SRA rears. Makes for good fun on the roads.

Theblacknightls1
01-24-2012, 07:13 PM
I bet this Gt500 will break 11s for sure on stock tires but not sure how it will do on a road course.

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 07:29 PM
The mustang the zl1 beats has a supercharger as well. If you dont think it will beat a 2012 GT500 you are crazy. It was benchmarked to do just that. And it has NEVER run away from a boss like the zl1 did in any test.

And from a few tests I have seen...ford beat themselves without adding a supercharger...how freaking stupid is that?

And since when does a supercharger help in the turns?

Keep trying.

i don't have to try. i think that the race between a 2012 gt500 AND THE 2012 ZL1 will be a drivers race.
the supercharger gives added boost(who'da thunk boost from a supercharger?) when accelerating out of the turns.
the goodyear supercar f2 tires aren't "R" compound?

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 07:32 PM
Why...because you said so? A magazine who compares cars for a living seems to think it was valid enough to compare them. I think they have more of a say than you do whether you like it or not.

I disagree. I think any two cars priced within 7k of each other can be compared.

The SS gets compared to the 392 and the price difference is greater. The SS was compared to the gt500 and the price difference was nearly 20k.

7k would keep you from buying another car with far superior performance? It would not for me personally. Therefor I see them as competitors.

first off.....the 392? i presume you mean the challenger? that overweight underpowered sled(it is a beautiful sled though) shouldn't even be in this discussion.

who the hell compared the ss to the gt500? if anything, the ss should be compared to the gt....and streeeettttcccchhing it maybe.......juuusssttt maybe the regular boss302(personally i don't think so).

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 07:35 PM
All good points. I just happen to think the price was close enough that the test was reasonably fair. And while not direct competitors (I agree) I think they are competitors in a sense that the price isnt far off. The fact that the BOSS has been proven to be just as capable on a road course as a gt500 in some instances...it is all the more validating/rewarding for the zl1 crowd.

For the most part I am arguing about this tonight for the sake of arguing and because I am bored. I have no stake in either ZL1, BOSS or GT500...I could really care less what happens for the most part.

thanks for the entertainment though :engarde:

bolded...same here. i can't afford any of them...although a lady kept pushing me to name a price on my gt...so i finally did. if she'd have come through with cash, i'd have paid off the gt, and tossed an instand downpayment on a boss.
if i could afford, i'd have one each of the fords and chevys, and a challenger for the rainy days when i can't drive hard anyway.

D3VIL
01-24-2012, 07:37 PM
Boss LS has also taken down a BMW M3. Just wanted to throw that out there. Carry on. :)

Yes everyone and their mom knows that, it's not like every magizine featured it's test or anything ;)

It's like when the new M5 came out. I was at Barnes & Noble and it was on the cover of 4 different magazines. Can't wait to see it's head to head match vs. CTS-V :D

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 07:40 PM
If you think this car isn't being held back (performance trade off for comfort/livability) some then you are either completely naive or a ford fanboy.neither.

Electronic dampers they've used all the way back on the C5 Corvette (revised versions on the new GM cars obviously).
These aid in both ride and handling, not a strait up performance piece.aahh yes, but they needed to add them to the camaro in order for it to beat the boss.


But not the top of the line engine? - they are holding back...i would venture that ford's got a LOT more up their sleeve with the 5 liter than any of us think.


They are using a smaller engine with a supercharger, modern day suspension with advanced shocks, vs a smaller/lighter car with a bigger engine (dont confuse displacement with size), weight reduction, chassis bracing, and track tuned suspension (although yes, a solid axle).smaller engine? 6.2 liter vs a 5 liter? they could reduce weight even more by using a smaller engine.

Gm could have stripped the car and added more chassis bracing, stickier tires, more power, more aggressive brakes, suspension etc etc etc. The ZL1, like almost all street cars, is being held back in performance for comfort street ability.
how much more sticky are you gonna get than f2 super car tires? and friggin ginormous too.

Urban Legend
01-24-2012, 08:05 PM
A lot of fans in here.

gocartone
01-24-2012, 08:15 PM
The mustang the zl1 beats has a supercharger as well. If you dont think it will beat a 2012 GT500 you are crazy. It was benchmarked to do just that. And it has NEVER run away from a boss like the zl1 did in any test.

And from a few tests I have seen...ford beat themselves without adding a supercharger...how freaking stupid is that?

And since when does a supercharger help in the turns?

Keep trying.

Maybe around the track it's going to have a minor advantage, but it's been tested by a few places now and 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are only on par with the current GT500. Weight is killing it, and the fact that GM isn't going to make a Camaro with ZR1 power, which is why it's only on par with the current GT500. The 550HP GT500 still has a better power to weight ratio, the 2013 has more than a whole pound less per horsepower (slightly better power to weight than the Z06 has!).

The only test with the Boss LS and the GT500 had the GT500 beating it around the track, so what have you been reading? I'd bet on the ZL1 beating the 2011/12 GT500, but I think it's going to be too close to call. The 2.45 second lead around an almost 2min road course is the same as 3/10s in the 1/4 mile, that's not what I would call an ass kicking.

ULTIMATEORANGESS
01-24-2012, 08:23 PM
I bet this Gt500 will break 11s for sure on stock tires but not sure how it will do on a road course.

already been done.


though i cant find the article. heres evan getting close.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_NGDBF24Zw

gocartone
01-24-2012, 08:34 PM
already been done.


though i cant find the article. heres evan getting close.



There are more than a few in the 11s on stock tires, I think 11.7 is the fastest all stock right now.

Stock+wheels and tires-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNhulxLTim8

LS1LT1
01-24-2012, 08:37 PM
Boss LS has also taken down a BMW M3. Just wanted to throw that out there. Carry on. :)Boss is a sick car. If I was in the market for a new vehicle right now it would definitely be my choice (non LS model). Price, performance, and arguably the last raw muscle car made. I like NA motors and SRA rears. Makes for good fun on the roads.:werd: :nod:






I bet this Gt500 will break 11s for sure on stock tires but not sure how it will do on a road course.I agree. I'm almost positive that the 2013 GT500 will break into the 11s in almost any air conditions with a decent driver. Heck, even the current version has done it in good air.
I also believe the ZL1 will be easily capable of 11s as well, with either of it's transmission choices. :nod:

LS1LT1
01-24-2012, 08:47 PM
Stock+wheels and tires-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNhulxLTim8That is impressive. Yes, it was done on slicks and skinnies which really helps a lot but that's still very fast for an otherwise stock Mustang. :nod:

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 08:50 PM
On the same wheels/tires, I bet a new GT500 hits 10.6 @ 127mph.

LS1LT1
01-24-2012, 08:57 PM
On the same wheels/tires, I bet a new GT500 hits 10.6 @ 127mph.That is very possible (as long as they keep the weight the same/similar as well of course), 100hp more can make A BIG difference. :drive:
Plus it's supposed to have some really good/advanced launch control feature, but using it still might not even be the quickest method down the track with a good driver on sticky drag tires. :burn:

Nick V.
01-24-2012, 09:00 PM
so who here thinks that when these cars come out, the dick driving will blow by you like

your standing still?

ULTIMATEORANGESS
01-24-2012, 09:09 PM
so who here thinks that when these cars come out, the dick driving will blow by you like

your standing still?

im up for this challenge.

It'llrun
01-24-2012, 09:32 PM
Uh, the boss 302LS has out performed the 2012 GT500 on many tracks if Im not mistaken? So... simple logic leads me to believe the 2012 GT500 won't hang with the ZL1 if the BossLS couldn't...It seems to me, there have been many tests here and there, but the only time I saw a BOSS directly compared on the same track, same day, etc.... the GT500 won the war. I don't, however, think it was a LS version in that test. Could've been, but I can't remember.

Also, the last I saw the 2013 GT500 was still planning on running the same shitty 285 tires they have since 2007 that didn't hook up with 500hp, let alone 650.Your skepticism has given me reason to take a look... F1 tires go on the 2013. 19's up front and 20's out back. Mostly, I saw "R compound" and the like, but I saw 1 article that actually mentioned the F1's.

They haven't "pulled" the GT500's out of showrooms, nor did I imply this because I was referencing the 2013 GT500 which isn't produced or even tested yet. The reason I responded as I did is because whether or not you meant to, you certainly DID imply the GT500 wasn't on showroom floors. You said the ZL1 is available today, which it isn't. You said the GT500 is not, which it is. Neither is available in 2013 form just yet. Unlike many, I don't see the 2013 500 going on sale this year. Maybe it will, but Idonno... Don't really care either, except for being (finally) able to see what all the hype is about.

I believe the ZL1 would have to be produced in order to test it if I'm not mistaken? Why don't you go down to the dealership and see which you can order? ZL1 orders/allocations went in weeks ago in mid december, they'll start rolling in to show rooms in the first part of February. I wouldn't call February "spring", but hey, dealerships know everything right? ;) Dealerships are, sadly, often mis- or competely uninformed. Well, their representatives anyway... GM says "spring" and that's what I'm going with till I see them on the floor.

The pricing for the 2013 GT500 is hiding along with all of the Nurburgring times :secret2::lol: I'm not convinced either is hiding... I think Ford isn't showing its hand and that's that. I'd like to know though, because it just might be 60k... I don't see them selling well at that price, but whatdoino...

If they offer electronic suspension, etc. ... Who knows what the car may do??? It's already known they intend to offer coolers for this and that, at an extra price... All of what they'll have is unknown. The ZL1 seems really good and I think I'd like to drive one. Then again, I'd like to drive the 2013 Mustang as well. More importantly, I think I'd like to drive the 2015 version of each!

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 09:38 PM
I posted up about the track test of the GT500 and Boss Laguna Seca earlier.

firebird99
01-24-2012, 09:56 PM
I love how all the ford nut swingers fail to realize that even though the camaro is a heavy pig it still beats a purpose built track car (BOSS LS) that ford has made such a big deal about. Now before you chime in on that just think what would happen if the zl1 did weigh the same it would have been even worse so that fact that it is that heavy and runs that hard stock is amazing for the price and good for the ford guys or they would really cry.Now the best part about the new gt500 is that for many years the ford guys have said they dont need ''BIG'' motors to make power yet they have gone bigger with both the base model(4.6-5.0) and the gt500 (5.4-5.8) so they can no longer cry about cubic inches.

Irunelevens
01-24-2012, 10:02 PM
"If it weighed the same" is a ricer excuse. What if the Boss had 136hp more and independent rear suspension? See how dumb that sounds?

JD_AMG
01-24-2012, 10:03 PM
learn how to quote...

neither.
Seems to be both by this post...

.aahh yes, but they needed to add them to the camaro in order for it to beat the boss.

Did they? How do you know?

i would venture that ford's got a LOT more up their sleeve with the 5 liter than any of us think.

I never said Ford wasn't holding back. If you read my post you'll see I say all street cars.

.smaller engine? 6.2 liter vs a 5 liter? they could reduce weight even more by using a smaller engine.

READ: displacement is NOT size. The LSx engines are SMALLER than Fords Mod motors and Coyotee engine, although have more DISPLACEMENT.
FYI GMs LSx engines are some of the lightest V8s on the market.


how much more sticky are you gonna get than f2 super car tires? and friggin ginormous too.
R-compound tires like the ones the Boss LS is wearing?
285/305 is ginormous now? My lowly Fbody has 275/315 and I wouldn't consider that ginormous...

MI-Z/28
01-24-2012, 10:08 PM
I love how all the ford nut swingers fail to realize that even though the camaro is a heavy pig it still beats a purpose built track car (BOSS LS) that ford has made such a big deal about. Now before you chime in on that just think what would happen if the zl1 did weigh the same it would have been even worse so that fact that it is that heavy and runs that hard stock is amazing for the price and good for the ford guys or they would really cry.Now the best part about the new gt500 is that for many years the ford guys have said they dont need ''BIG'' motors to make power yet they have gone bigger with both the base model(4.6-5.0) and the gt500 (5.4-5.8) so they can no longer cry about cubic inches.

What if they weighed the same...
What if Ford ran a 6.2L...
What if GM ran DOHC...
What if Ford ran wider tires...
What if...
What if...
What if...

:eyes:

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 10:38 PM
Maybe around the track it's going to have a minor advantage, but it's been tested by a few places now and 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are only on par with the current GT500. Weight is killing it, and the fact that GM isn't going to make a Camaro with ZR1 power, which is why it's only on par with the current GT500. The 550HP GT500 still has a better power to weight ratio, the 2013 has more than a whole pound less per horsepower (slightly better power to weight than the Z06 has!).

The only test with the Boss LS and the GT500 had the GT500 beating it around the track, so what have you been reading? I'd bet on the ZL1 beating the 2011/12 GT500, but I think it's going to be too close to call. The 2.45 second lead around an almost 2min road course is the same as 3/10s in the 1/4 mile, that's not what I would call an ass kicking.

it's been awhile since i was on the dragstrip....but if i recall, .3 is less than a half of a car length.

on the described track, i was figuring 2.4 seconds to be in the ballpark of 3 to 5 car lengths, give or take a few.

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 10:43 PM
learn how to quote...

Seems to be both by this post...


Did they? How do you know?because gt's beat regular v8 camaros...it would stand to reason that the boss's would beat them too.


I never said Ford wasn't holding back. If you read my post you'll see I say all street cars.


READ: displacement is NOT size. The LSx engines are SMALLER than Fords Mod motors and Coyotee engine, although have more DISPLACEMENT.
FYI GMs LSx engines are some of the lightest V8s on the market.i know what displacement is. the chevy is larger, although not physically, since you want to split hairs. why not drop down to the same displacement(happy?) engine in the camaro as the mustang has? oh yea....probably has something to do with the fact that a camaro has never been faster with the same displacement engine. :D


R-compound tires like the ones the Boss LS is wearing?
285/305 is ginormous now? My lowly Fbody has 275/315 and I wouldn't consider that ginormous...

305/35ZR20 sure as hell is.

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 10:44 PM
I love how all the ford nut swingers fail to realize that even though the camaro is a heavy pig it still beats a purpose built track car (BOSS LS) that ford has made such a big deal about. Now before you chime in on that just think what would happen if the zl1 did weigh the same it would have been even worse so that fact that it is that heavy and runs that hard stock is amazing for the price and good for the ford guys or they would really cry.Now the best part about the new gt500 is that for many years the ford guys have said they dont need ''BIG'' motors to make power yet they have gone bigger with both the base model(4.6-5.0) and the gt500 (5.4-5.8) so they can no longer cry about cubic inches.

you really gonna tell me that the zl1 isn't purpose built?

oh yea.....and you're welcome. :devil:

going from 4.6 to 5.0 was just fixing a stupid mistake ford made back when the ended the fox chassis. well...a couple years after.
going from 5.4 to 5.8? i dunno why they did that to be honest....and they obviously don't, seeing as the 5 liter outpowers the 6.2, as does the 5.8 supercharged vs the 6.2 supercharged. :D

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 10:50 PM
What if they weighed the same...
What if Ford ran a 6.2L...
What if GM ran DOHC...
What if Ford ran wider tires...
What if...
What if...
What if...

:eyes:

the one thing i'm gonna hate if i happen to have a camaro pull up next to me is that i won't ever back down from a race......that includes on my 012 even though the engine's not broken in yet. hopefully i won't eff it up in showing him my ass. :devil:

JD_AMG
01-24-2012, 10:56 PM
For the love of god learn how to quote...


because gt's beat regular v8 camaros...it would stand to reason that the boss's would beat them too.

What does this have to do with magnetic adjustable shocks?

i know what displacement is. the chevy is larger, although not physically, since you want to split hairs.

Im not splitting hairs, size is not displacement.


why not drop down to the same displacement(happy?) engine in the camaro as the mustang has?

Why? What would that do?

oh yea....probably has something to do with the fact that a camaro has never been faster with the same displacement engine.

Another ricer/mustang fanboy excuse? "Ford can never make the same amount of power with the same number of cams or valves" :eyes:


305/35ZR20 sure as hell is.
Height? Yes. Width? No.
That tall of a wheel hurts performance in all aspects, so I hope your not trying to use the height as another crybaby excuse.
Does it really bother you that badly that the ZL1 beat the Boss LS?

JD_AMG
01-24-2012, 10:59 PM
The 2.45 second lead around an almost 2min road course is the same as 3/10s in the 1/4 mile, that's not what I would call an ass kicking.
A 2.45 second lead around an almost 2min road course is the difference between a base C6 and a C6 Z06. Thats pretty huge, and definitely an ass kicking.

gocartone
01-24-2012, 11:08 PM
it's been awhile since i was on the dragstrip....but if i recall, .3 is less than a half of a car length.

on the described track, i was figuring 2.4 seconds to be in the ballpark of 3 to 5 car lengths, give or take a few.

I wasn't saying actual distance, just a comparison for the lap times vs 1/4 mile times. The Camaro had a ~3% edge on the Mustang, which is about the same gap from first to tenth in F1 qualifying. A gap, yes, but it's hard to say that the car is faster around the track because one driver was ~3% faster with the easier to drive car (and the one he sounded more comfortable with) than a no-nanny (well, less-nanny) Boss LS.

1ltcap
01-24-2012, 11:10 PM
I wasn't saying actual distance, just a comparison for the lap times vs 1/4 mile times. The Camaro had a ~3% edge on the Mustang, which is about the same gap from first to tenth in F1 qualifying. A gap, yes, but it's hard to say that the car is faster around the track because one driver was ~3% faster with the easier to drive car (and the one he sounded more comfortable with) than a no-nanny (well, less-nanny) Boss LS.

good points. normally i'd say it'll be a drivers race, but that's a little too big of a gap for that...........

UltraZLS1
01-25-2012, 12:04 AM
A .3 loss at the strip looks ugly. And the faster the cars the uglier it looks.

If you want to see proof of some sort in the motor trend test of the 2010 gt500 vs the 2010 SS the SS ran a 12.9 to the gt500's 12.8. The ss was behind by something like 16 feet from only a .1 tenth difference (the guy talking on the vid gives the number of feet). Or you could use math. 110mph x 1.47 will give you 161.7. Divide that by 10 and you get the distance a car will cover in one tenth of a second at 110mph. 16.17 feet in .1 tenth of a second is covered at 110mph.

If you lose by .3 in a 1/4 racing two 12 second cars you are getting beat by quite a bit.

2.4 seconds...you would be wondering if the boss was still on the track lol. Bus lengths upon bus lengths behind. And that is just one lap lol. And are we forgetting the zl1 actually has all the proper cooling systems, braking systems etc to run an entire race? But I guess that is stupid and it is never mentioned by the ford fan boys...to think someone would actally go and do the stuff the car was designed for.....when you could pretend it could do it and buy a boss.

Irunelevens
01-25-2012, 12:07 AM
So the slower car is now a "pretender?" I guess you must think the Corvette Grand Sport is a complete piece of shit... Hundreds of pounds lighter then the Mustang, yet slower around the track.

UltraZLS1
01-25-2012, 12:15 AM
So the slower car is now a "pretender?" I guess you must think the Corvette Grand Sport is a complete piece of shit... Hundreds of pounds lighter then the Mustang, yet slower around the track.

When was it tested on a road course against a grand sport on the same track on the same day with the same driver?

And yes...if it could not run an entire race it is a pretender. I was not talking about the speed at which the cars are running laps that makes them a pretender. But if they can actually do it or not. A car that is designed for the track such as the boss ls but does not actually have all the necessary pieces to do so would be a pretender...I would say the same for the corvette if in fact it could not do the same (havent looked into it)

It'llrun
01-25-2012, 12:18 AM
I love how all the ford nut swingers fail to realize that even though the camaro is a heavy pig it still beats a purpose built track car (BOSS LS) that ford has made such a big deal about.Point us out a single individual who failed to realize this? Just one will do fine, thanks...

Oh, and it wasn't that Ford made such a big deal about the BOSS... The press did that for Ford. I don't recall seeing even 1 add on TV, for example, regarding the BOSS Mustang. I did, however, read about it in several magazine articles.

Then there's the laughable idea that you're somehow thinking the ZL1 isn't a purpose built track car. GM is all but screaming from the rooftops... "BARELY STREET LEGAL" is prominantly posted directly beneath the ZL1's photo. Then click to see more and you'll see the same phrase over the car... You'll eventually get to... "Built to be track-capable right from the showroom." and more. THIS CAR IS TRACK READY!!!! Yes, they are actually saying that right on their website...

Now before you chime in on that just think what would happen if the zl1 did weigh the same it would have been even worse so that fact that it is that heavy and runs that hard stock is amazing for the price and good for the ford guys or they would really cry.Now the best part about the new gt500 is that for many years the ford guys have said they dont need ''BIG'' motors to make power yet they have gone bigger with both the base model(4.6-5.0) and the gt500 (5.4-5.8) so they can no longer cry about cubic inches.Just think "what it" a frog had wings... Then get back to reality. :D

it's been awhile since i was on the dragstrip....but if i recall, .3 is less than a half of a car length.Maybe... For cars needing about 20 seconds to run the 1/4 mile... If 1 runs a 12.8 and another runs 12.9... That could be about 30 feet or nearly 2 car lengths. How friggin' slow is your car? :lol:

on the described track, i was figuring 2.4 seconds to be in the ballpark of 3 to 5 car lengths, give or take a few.Even if it was only 3-5(and it's more like 25-30), there's a difference on a road course track in that, unlike a drag strip, laps aren't done in a "1 then wait till next time" fashion. Typically, this type of racing in multiple laps and in that case, you can only surmise the ZL1 would've only opened a wider gap with each consecutive lap.

you really gonna tell me that the zl1 isn't purpose built?

oh yea.....and you're welcome. :devil:So purpose built, in fact, GM has openly said it's sole purpose is to beat the Shelby GT500 in every aspect. :D

going from 4.6 to 5.0 was just fixing a stupid mistake ford made back when the ended the fox chassis. well...a couple years after.Actually... The "fox chassis" went on until the 2005 model replaced it... They called it the S/N 95 from 1994 on, but the chassis was essentially the same till the 2005 model. The 4.6 wasn't used in Mustangs, of course, till 1996 models. The idea was simple, really... Save money, period.
going from 5.4 to 5.8? i dunno why they did that to be honest....and they obviously don't, seeing as the 5 liter outpowers the 6.2, as does the 5.8 supercharged vs the 6.2 supercharged. :DGoing to 5.8L allowed much more power to be made with ease. That's the only reason I'd need. :D

UltraZLS1
01-25-2012, 12:23 AM
Point us out a single individual who failed to realize this? Just one will do fine, thanks...

Oh, and it wasn't that Ford made such a big deal about the BOSS... The press did that for Ford. I don't recall seeing even 1 add on TV, for example, regarding the BOSS Mustang. I did, however, read about it in several magazine articles.

Then there's the laughable idea that you're somehow thinking the ZL1 isn't a purpose built track car. GM is all but screaming from the rooftops... "BARELY STREET LEGAL" is prominantly posted directly beneath the ZL1's photo. Then click to see more and you'll see the same phrase over the car... You'll eventually get to... "Built to be track-capable right from the showroom." and more. THIS CAR IS TRACK READY!!!! Yes, they are actually saying that right on their website...

Just think "what it" a frog had wings... Then get back to reality. :D

Maybe... For cars needing about 20 seconds to run the 1/4 mile... If 1 runs a 12.8 and another runs 12.9... That could be about 30 feet or nearly 2 car lengths. How friggin' slow is your car? :lol:

Even if it was only 3-5(and it's more like 25-30), there's a difference on a road course track in that, unlike a drag strip, laps aren't done in a "1 then wait till next time" fashion. Typically, this type of racing in multiple laps and in that case, you can only surmise the ZL1 would've only opened a wider gap with each consecutive lap.

So purpose built, in fact, GM has openly said it's sole purpose is to beat the Shelby GT500 in every aspect. :D

Actually... The "fox chassis" went on until the 2005 model replaced it... They called it the S/N 95 from 1994 on, but the chassis was essentially the same till the 2005 model. The 4.6 wasn't used in Mustangs, of course, till 1996 models. The idea was simple, really... Save money, period.
Going to 5.8L allowed much more power to be made with ease. That's the only reason I'd need. :D

Their was an entire show dedicted to the pruduction of the boss 302 on the speed channel. How they brought in the legendary parnelli jones to help design it etc etc. How it is the best handling mustang ever made...you name it they said it...right from the people designing the cars mouth.

And yes...the zl1 is actually track ready...look into it. Not much on the road today is ready for the track in such a way...but yet still delivers all the creature comforts and at a price of 55k. It is pretty amazing.

ThisBlood147
01-25-2012, 12:32 AM
You know, it was so quiet around here when it was just the SS vs the GT/GT500/hell...even the Boss. Now the ZL1 shows up and suddenly it's all loud and unruly. :D

It'llrun
01-25-2012, 12:51 AM
Their was an entire show dedicted to the pruduction of the boss 302 on the speed channel. How they brought in the legendary parnelli jones to help design it etc etc. How it is the best handling mustang ever made...you name it they said it...right from the people designing the cars mouth.Uh huh... And? Most people don't have Speed channel...

Idonno why they'd bother bringing in Rufus... He's about as old as the sands of time and knows NOTHING about todays race car building, I'm sure. It ain't like 1960... It ain't like 1990 or 2000, let alone "his time" as a racer. He won his last race before about 80% of the people on this site were even conceived for goodness sake. I know he was "attached" to the 2007 "Parnelli Jones" Saleen model, but never heard about the same for the LS version. I read that he got one, but never heard he had a hand in development of any part/s. He's gotta be near 80 by now... He's not a racer these days by any stretch of the imagination.

And yes...the zl1 is actually track ready...look into it. Not much on the road today is ready for the track in such a way...but yet still delivers all the creature comforts and at a price of 55k. It is pretty amazing.After all I said about what GM is saying, you can't figure out that obviously, I have looked into it? :eyes:

Oh, btw... It doesn't even come close to delivering "all" the creature comforts. It does offer plenty, but if you wonder what more it could offer, look into cars like Aston Martin, Jaguar, Porsche, MB, BMW and of course, Cadillac... All of which typically include items not found in any "Chevrolet" labeled vehicle. Yes, this car is highly advanced in terms of handling, but it's not like it has the greatest interior ever seen or like it's the most comfortable car ever...

I think the ZL1 might be highly underpriced. I've said as much before, and more. I believe it to be far and away the best performance non-Corvette GM has ever offered to the public. It flatly smokes every other factory production Camaro or F-body and doesn't even begin to look backward at all the models INSTANTLY deemed slow and archaic by its mere presence, including any other 2012 or older model. It makes the '69 ZL1 look like a joke on wheels, save the 1/4 mile itself. Even then, the old version would need slicks to keep up. Not 1969 slicks either... FRESH NEW SLICKS!