Generation IV External Engine - Mamo ported 102 vs Veng. Racing ported 102?




1nastyss
01-17-2012, 04:52 PM
Alright fellas, my motor is getting closer to being finished by LME , my question is should i go with a Tony Mamo ported Fast 102, or save a little money and get a Vengence racing , i know the Vengence porting is good to go , just trying to justifiy the extra money for a Mamofied Fast, throw up your opionions.


BrntWS6
01-17-2012, 05:14 PM
Does Mamo do anything different for the extra $$? What does he charge like $500 to port it...that's a lot of cash. I have a FAST 92 ported by Vengence and all they did was grind down the bumps on each port. I went through and shaved off all the extra casting marks and sanded them down nice and smooth. I was surprised to see how many there were, probably spend 4 hrs or so doing it.

JPH
01-17-2012, 05:14 PM
Alright fellas, my motor is getting closer to being finished by LME , my question is should i go with a Tony Mamo ported Fast 102, or save a little money and get a Vengence racing , i know the Vengence porting is good to go , just trying to justifiy the extra money for a Mamofied Fast, throw up your opionions.

Hmm, that is a good question? I think I would put my money on Tonys stuff. Tony has probably spent more time on a Flowbench and a Dyno(100s of hrs I would guess)trying to tweak and change that intake runner port design around more to were it suits him and is right/correct for the given application.


slippi84
01-17-2012, 05:44 PM
I know people swear by Tony's work but I have a hard time paying to port a manifold to gain 5-10whp and paying anything more than like 250 plus shipping. Hell that's already 1/4 of the manifold. If you didn't have one at all I would buy a already ported one off him if he did that.

Jrp1978
01-17-2012, 11:54 PM
I in no way mean to come off as a ass ! 5 -10 ? Umm there was alot more power under the curve made than that ! The correct setup with a ported mamo fast can see well over 30 rwhp ! There are several test thread with dyno charts to prove this on here ! Patrick G did a awsome job on the g8 fast vrs ported ls3 proving most wrong on there " no horsepower to be had post"
But if you are chasing peak # i see your point ! But how often or long does your car set at that peak # or rpm for that matter!
Please i dont mean to come off as ass so dont take it that way! Tony mamo and his efforts and knowledge on this fast 102 intake alone .... It for a better word awsome ! Most people take for granted what they read and assume things ! So please by all means give tony a call tell him your setup explain your goal !

slippi84
01-18-2012, 02:29 AM
I in no way mean to come off as a ass ! 5 -10 ? Umm there was alot more power under the curve made than that ! The correct setup with a ported mamo fast can see well over 30 rwhp ! There are several test thread with dyno charts to prove this on here ! Patrick G did a awsome job on the g8 fast vrs ported ls3 proving most wrong on there " no horsepower to be had post"
But if you are chasing peak # i see your point ! But how often or long does your car set at that peak # or rpm for that matter!
Please i dont mean to come off as ass so dont take it that way! Tony mamo and his efforts and knowledge on this fast 102 intake alone .... It for a better word awsome ! Most people take for granted what they read and assume things ! So please by all means give tony a call tell him your setup explain your goal !

30whp over a stock ported or ls3 but I already have a FAST 102 manifold and Tony is not getting 30 additional whp out of a FAST manifold thus the 5-10whp. I know my goals and how to reach them and a ported LSXR intake is not needed it will never hurt and for the guy that's trying to milk every last hp out its a good deal but for the average guy that already owns a FAST manifold its a stretch.

1nastyss
01-18-2012, 05:16 PM
Thanks fellers, im probably gonna go with Tony, i know his work is top-notch

KILLERARMY
01-19-2012, 08:35 AM
I remember some guy mention that Tony Momo Ported job is all about squeezing all the HP you can get,while Vengeance Racing have nice ported job for the money.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1397965-vengance-vs-mamo-fast-intake-2.html

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1262960-what-does-take-optimize-your-102-fast.html

Sy99T/A
01-19-2012, 09:31 AM
I know this is a Mamo vs Vengance thread but have you inquired with Brian Tooley he also does amazing work, along with the fact that he did or does work for one of them big boy cylinder head companies.

2000_SS
01-19-2012, 09:44 AM
i've had two Mamofied FASTs...they're worth the premium. Tony has it down to a science and i honestly think he could port a FAST blindfolded better than some people out there. i can't speak for Vengeance, other than i've had good experiences buying parts from them, but i know you wouldn't be disappointed with one of Tony's intakes.

BrntWS6
01-19-2012, 02:27 PM
Reading the link above I'd save the money and go with Vengance since they claim only a 1-2rwhp difference between the two.

litle88
01-20-2012, 08:32 AM
Look fellas all ANYBODY can do is port the base of the runners in an attempt to match your heads. That's ALL you can really port. There's really not much you can do to the 102's. With the help of Chris1313 we took mines apart and set the lower on the head and mocked it up as it would be installed then we mark the areas so it can be matched to the heads with his dremmel then put the runners on the lower and match them to the lower. You'll see what I mean when you take it apart. It took about 1.5 hours, really easy. If someone says the ported the inside and opened the runners thru out the are blowing smoke up your azz. Sorry but I work too hard to spend 500 extra dollars for basic work. I'll bet you if you buy both and look inside that they will be the same. Sorry bud but save your money and do it yourself with a friend have some fun and save it for beer money if your installing it your self. Good luck and keep us posted.

Blk98Vert
01-25-2012, 07:35 PM
They don't even compare. I've personally seen both and the vengeance looks like someone took a sanding roll for 5 minutes to the runners. Sommer86 measured the ported difference and Vengeance took .001 of an inch out of the runners. Mamo takes a giant pile of plastic out, he posted a pic of it. Is go with him all day

bug man nrg
01-25-2012, 08:46 PM
Are the units in hand DBW??? OR NOT

Ron@Vengeance
01-26-2012, 10:13 AM
I typically dont like to get involved in direct comparisons between vendors, but I would like to make a comment...

Please consider two things when deciding where to purchase your intake manifold..

*Pricing- Our pricing is appropriate for the amount of work/time spent on our manifolds. After extensive testing we saw NO ADDITIONAL GAINS from any further porting thus no reason to charge a "premium"

*Performance- "looks" aside has anyone actually installed a stock 102mm intake/installed a VR Ported 102/Installed a Mamo ported 102 for a TRUE direct A/B comparison???

If anyone would like to pay an additional $500.00 we would be more than happy to "port" your intake manifold top to bottom and inside to out and make it look like a work of art... At the end of the day you would still make the same power our current work does.

FWIW, this is not a dig on Tony AT ALL.. We all know Tony knows his stuff and has a very solid reputation in the industry. As I said it was OUR experience that the additional port work yielded no additional power gains....

VIPRETR2
01-26-2012, 12:38 PM
*Performance- "looks" aside has anyone actually installed a stock 102mm intake/installed a VR Ported 102/Installed a Mamo ported 102 for a TRUE direct A/B comparison???



I'm curious if you have done an A to B dyno comparison on an unported FAST and your ported offering? I may have missed it if it was posted but I would be interested in the results if you have any. Thanks.

gotjuice?
01-26-2012, 12:50 PM
Thanks fellers, im probably gonna go with Tony, i know his work is top-notch

I would:thumb::thumb:

5w20
01-26-2012, 02:41 PM
Someone needs to send their vengeance ported and someone else their Mamo ported intake to a 3rd party that is willing to dyno them.

1nastyss
01-26-2012, 02:49 PM
It would be nice, i just placed the order with Tony

5w20
01-26-2012, 02:53 PM
It would be nice, i just placed the order with Tony

Find someone who is willing to ship their vengeance ported intake to a third party or maybe vengeance will prove their point and send one of theirs.

Ron@Vengeance
01-26-2012, 04:46 PM
Find someone who is willing to ship their vengeance ported intake to a third party or maybe vengeance will prove their point and send one of theirs.

We have nothing to prove. We posted our ported Vs non ported #s over a year ago with back to back comparisons. Our pricing is inline with the additional power and the work performed.

5w20
01-26-2012, 05:02 PM
We have nothing to prove. We posted our ported Vs non ported #s over a year ago with back to back comparisons. Our pricing is inline with the additional power and the work performed.

You said that the extra porting doesn't gain anything, I'm sure others would like to see that proven and put an end to the debate.

ramairws6
01-26-2012, 05:23 PM
Not a Mamo vrs. Vengence comparison but it might help ya out a little...http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1296721-mamo-ported-102-fast-lsxr-ls7-vs-ported-ls7-intake-results.html

VIPRETR2
01-26-2012, 06:29 PM
We have nothing to prove. We posted our ported Vs non ported #s over a year ago with back to back comparisons. Our pricing is inline with the additional power and the work performed.

Can you post a link? I can't seem to find it in the dyno section. Thanks.

SmokedOutZ28
01-26-2012, 06:54 PM
Mamo ported my Fast 102 to match my A.I heads and after taking it apart the runners were ported and matched up very well with the heads. I've never seen vengeance's work but I can tell you if you went with Mamo it would be money very well spent.

litle88
01-26-2012, 07:33 PM
They don't even compare. I've personally seen both and the vengeance looks like someone took a sanding roll for 5 minutes to the runners. Sommer86 measured the ported difference and Vengeance took .001 of an inch out of the runners. Mamo takes a giant pile of plastic out, he posted a pic of it. Is go with him all day

Those pics iirc were from a 90 or 92mm intake NOT a 102. All you can really do is match the intake to the heads. Sorry not bashing anyone at all both vendors have my utmost respect.

Tony Mamo @ AFR
01-26-2012, 08:27 PM
Those pics iirc were from a 90 or 92mm intake NOT a 102. All you can really do is match the intake to the heads. Sorry not bashing anyone at all both vendors have my utmost respect.
I can understand how some might feel that way....but there is much more invested than meets the casual observer's eye I assure you.

No one has the level of R&D I have invested in these manifolds....no one. I pioneered this exercise back in 2004, have spent countless hours since then improving my craft....searching and finding "more", and recently spent an additional 60-80 hours of heavy development work on the flowbench that unlocked some new gains I now include on all my customer ported intakes.

Truth be told, this latest round of testing was primarily driven for personal reasons wanting to push my own 454 LS combo even further with the next round of dyno testing I have planned in February (the engine pictured in my avatar), but in the end, everyone benefits from the additional work I invested and trust me when I tell you this type of work can be frustrating, exhausting, and it takes an enormous amount of dedication and patience. Learning what I did recently it takes me even longer to port a manifold but I didn't raise my pricing....just added more value to the customers that opt to deal with me.

This thread is old but it shows how much plastic used to come out of a 102 intake.....if you've purchased a manifold from me since last September or so you have my latest port designs which have considerably more material removed in key areas.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1262960-what-does-take-optimize-your-102-fast.html

Bottom line, having a choice of vendors is always a good thing (no matter what your shopping for) but if you want the most from your FAST and your willing to pay for the extra R&D time invested, proven results, and an incredibly neat and detailed execution of the work I'm your man.....

I would also like to add that at any point in time I could decide to do half the work, charge half the price, and quite honestly 99% of the customers would still be thrilled when they removed that manifold from the box but it's just not what I'm about....it's not what I represent or what am trying to build....for me its utmost quality over quantity in spite of the sales I may lose from that business model.

Whether I'm porting a set of heads.....porting a manifold, or building a detailed optimized engine combination....I take the same approach to everything I do as it relates to this hobby (and most other things in life I'm passionate about). At the risk of stating the obvious, I design cylinder heads and intake manifolds for a living....my background offers me a bit of an "edge" shall we say, and when I'm not doing that I'm usually building an engine or doing something related directly to this industry.

Anyway, sorry for the novel. The last thing I would like to add is I really appreciate all the folks that truly understand what I'm about and have done business with me in the past....hopefully we can continue to work together in the future as well.

:chug:

Cheers,
Tony

82cetuner
01-27-2012, 12:13 AM
Hey tony I may be in the market for a fast here in the upcomming months what would you charge to buy a 102 fast from you and have your port work done on it? I am also military if that helps you can shoot me a PM with the price.

My ported ls3 seems to flatten the HP out at 6200rpms which is pretty low for my 418 with a g6x3 cam, do you think I would see good gains from one of your fast 102s with ls3 cnc ported heads?

82cetuner
01-27-2012, 12:16 AM
and BTW I think both these guys make great products, Vengance does not claim they make the most power, but they are right in there pricing is adiquet with the power gains they make. tony spends alot more time and R and D on just fast intakes therefore thats where the price difference comes in and they probably are a little bit more optimized for power

NemeSS
01-27-2012, 02:23 AM
:offtopic:
Tony,
Any plans of releasing a multi piece composite intake manifold for ls engines?
I see one carb multi piece composite intake is available for sbc from AFR.
Cut out the middle man, design youre own ;)

Cold Zero
01-27-2012, 03:22 AM
You cannot go wrong with either one ..

For me; I'm going with Brian Tooley. He ported match my 102mm FAST with TFS 235 heads

frank baba
01-27-2012, 03:23 AM
spare us the sales pitch tony

god sake-you do good work and they do good work

move on-next topic please

take a joke tony....lol.....

Unertl42
01-27-2012, 11:54 AM
spare us the sales pitch tony

god sake-you do good work and they do good work

move on-next topic please

take a joke tony....lol.....

nice 1st post

1999transamls1
01-27-2012, 01:45 PM
spare us the sales pitch tony

god sake-you do good work and they do good work

move on-next topic please

take a joke tony....lol.....


troll much?

Sommer86
01-27-2012, 03:52 PM
I have a FAST 92 ported by Vengence and all they did was grind down the bumps on each port. I went through and shaved off all the extra casting marks and sanded them down nice and smooth. I was surprised to see how many there were, probably spend 4 hrs or so doing it.

They don't even compare. I've personally seen both and the vengeance looks like someone took a sanding roll for 5 minutes to the runners. Sommer86 measured the ported difference and Vengeance took .001 of an inch out of the runners. Mamo takes a giant pile of plastic out, he posted a pic of it. I'd go with him all day


I agree... my Vengeance "ported" intake was more like rubbed with sand paper, lol. Neadless to say, it was sold FAST! And yes, I have pics of the Vengeance intake vs. a stock 102.... it's VERY minimal material removal to say the least.


Hmm, that is a good question? I think I would put my money on Tonys stuff. Tony has probably spent more time on a Flowbench and a Dyno(100s of hrs I would guess)trying to tweak and change that intake runner port design around more to were it suits him and is right/correct for the given application.

Exactly, he has put these on flow benches and has spent a ton of time optimizing them. He takes his time and the quality of the work is obvious. He's even got a new way of porting these. ;) Not only that, but he even took the time to look at MY personal AFR heads and make sure that the porting would match up fine. He even took them with him!!

He even gave me some more valuable info on how I can get even more performance out of the rest of my build as well. He's an overall good guy and really cares about the final product. He's a real guys, guys.

i've had two Mamofied FASTs...they're worth the premium. Tony has it down to a science and i honestly think he could port a FAST blindfolded better than some people out there. i can't speak for Vengeance, other than i've had good experiences buying parts from them, but i know you wouldn't be disappointed with one of Tony's intakes.

Yep....I agree. All I've ever heard of Vengeance are good things and the tuning is supposed to be good also but their porting of intakes I'm not too fond of. I've had one and was not impressed. Sorry, not bashing but posting my opinion. After seeing a buddy of mine's Mamo ported FAST shortly after getting mine from Vengeance I put mine up for sale immediatly. In fact Tony's working on my new intake right now. I will let you guys know how everything turns out.

Mike

Sommer86
01-27-2012, 03:54 PM
and BTW I think both these guys make great products, Vengance does not claim they make the most power, but they are right in there pricing is adiquet with the power gains they make. tony spends alot more time and R and D on just fast intakes therefore thats where the price difference comes in and they probably are a little bit more optimized for power

+1 :headbang:

Fbodyjunkie06
02-05-2012, 04:51 AM
troll much?

Don't tell him that he will troll every single one of your posts, search everyone of your posts, find one person you had a disagreement with, then ride their nuts to glory all the while trying to start more shit, and while also calling you a nut hugger like he does everyone else.

That sum it up good enough for you frank?

98BLOWNZ28
02-14-2012, 12:20 AM
I agree... my Vengeance "ported" intake was more like rubbed with sand paper, lol. Neadless to say, it was sold FAST! And yes, I have pics of the Vengeance intake vs. a stock 102.... it's VERY minimal material removal to say the least.




Exactly, he has put these on flow benches and has spent a ton of time optimizing them. He takes his time and the quality of the work is obvious. He's even got a new way of porting these. ;) Not only that, but he even took the time to look at MY personal AFR heads and make sure that the porting would match up fine. He even took them with him!!

He even gave me some more valuable info on how I can get even more performance out of the rest of my build as well. He's an overall good guy and really cares about the final product. He's a real guys, guys.



Yep....I agree. All I've ever heard of Vengeance are good things and the tuning is supposed to be good also but their porting of intakes I'm not too fond of. I've had one and was not impressed. Sorry, not bashing but posting my opinion. After seeing a buddy of mine's Mamo ported FAST shortly after getting mine from Vengeance I put mine up for sale immediatly. In fact Tony's working on my new intake right now. I will let you guys know how everything turns out.

Mike

Do you have any pics of the different porting jobs?

jlcustomz
02-14-2012, 04:40 PM
Haven't ported on intakes yet, but have done cylinder head porting in the past. I will say this is the kind of thing that the more you know, the more you find out you still need to learn & the hours really do rack up doing this kind of work. Airflow is definitely a science in itself that doesn't necessarily follow the rules you think it does.
just removing casting bumps &flashing can take up enough time on itself, although it is something many a skilled craftsman can do.Going beyond that is so much more complex than most realize.

RsSean
02-14-2012, 04:51 PM
Do you have any pics of the different porting jobs?


I woudl like to see pictures as well

ChucksZ06
02-16-2012, 06:09 PM
You guys would all do yourself a big favor if you would take a 102 apart and measure the inside of the ports. The ports get progessively larger after the first 2 inches. ie much larger cross section than the heads. I call bs to anyone claiming gains from porting more than the first 2 to 3 inches of these intakes. After all is it not all about "small runners and high velocity" It is marketing hype to intimate that only (fill in a name) understands the mysteries of porting these intakes. I wonder if (fill in a name) believes all of their own marketing hype. Hopefully I have not made the numerous hero worshipers that populate this forum too angry.

1nastyss
02-16-2012, 07:47 PM
Check out this Mamofied fuckin hottness !!!!

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d123/1sickss/FASTw-WhiteLogo.jpg

1nastyss
02-16-2012, 07:49 PM
Tony did an awesome job , paint and everything looks sick, it sucks that you cant see the port work cause im sure its just as badass,,,,,,,

ChucksZ06
02-18-2012, 02:39 PM
Vengeance does way better paint job...really.

DietCoke
02-18-2012, 05:41 PM
Expecting mine from tony this week or next week. Cant wait

litle88
02-18-2012, 06:17 PM
You guys would all do yourself a big favor if you would take a 102 apart and measure the inside of the ports. The ports get progessively larger after the first 2 inches. ie much larger cross section than the heads. I call bs to anyone claiming gains from porting more than the first 2 to 3 inches of these intakes. After all is it not all about "small runners and high velocity" It is marketing hype to intimate that only (fill in a name) understands the mysteries of porting these intakes. I wonder if (fill in a name) believes all of their own marketing hype. Hopefully I have not made the numerous hero worshipers that populate this forum too angry.

Couldnt have said it better my self! NICE

LPE 403
02-18-2012, 07:06 PM
You guys would all do yourself a big favor if you would take a 102 apart and measure the inside of the ports. The ports get progessively larger after the first 2 inches. ie much larger cross section than the heads. I call bs to anyone claiming gains from porting more than the first 2 to 3 inches of these intakes. After all is it not all about "small runners and high velocity" It is marketing hype to intimate that only (fill in a name) understands the mysteries of porting these intakes. I wonder if (fill in a name) believes all of their own marketing hype. Hopefully I have not made the numerous hero worshipers that populate this forum too angry.

x3....:judge:

1nastyss
02-19-2012, 02:39 AM
Vengeance does way better paint job...really.

What a bunch of fuckin haters, i wasnt going for the whole bling factor , i wanted something more settle with the look of a stock style intake.....His port work has proven to pick up time and time again, He has a little more experience and time invested into getting the most out of the Fast intakes and does a little more than fucking cleaning up edges with a file.:flipbird:

Whistler
02-19-2012, 03:53 PM
If this turns into vendor bashing it's gotta get locked.....

revtech101
02-19-2012, 08:48 PM
I can understand how some might feel that way....but there is much more invested than meets the casual observer's eye I assure you.

No one has the level of R&D I have invested in these manifolds....no one. I pioneered this exercise back in 2004, have spent countless hours since then improving my craft....searching and finding "more", and recently spent an additional 60-80 hours of heavy development work on the flowbench that unlocked some new gains I now include on all my customer ported intakes.

Truth be told, this latest round of testing was primarily driven for personal reasons wanting to push my own 454 LS combo even further with the next round of dyno testing I have planned in February (the engine pictured in my avatar), but in the end, everyone benefits from the additional work I invested and trust me when I tell you this type of work can be frustrating, exhausting, and it takes an enormous amount of dedication and patience. Learning what I did recently it takes me even longer to port a manifold but I didn't raise my pricing....just added more value to the customers that opt to deal with me.

This thread is old but it shows how much plastic used to come out of a 102 intake.....if you've purchased a manifold from me since last September or so you have my latest port designs which have considerably more material removed in key areas.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1262960-what-does-take-optimize-your-102-fast.html

Bottom line, having a choice of vendors is always a good thing (no matter what your shopping for) but if you want the most from your FAST and your willing to pay for the extra R&D time invested, proven results, and an incredibly neat and detailed execution of the work I'm your man.....

I would also like to add that at any point in time I could decide to do half the work, charge half the price, and quite honestly 99% of the customers would still be thrilled when they removed that manifold from the box but it's just not what I'm about....it's not what I represent or what am trying to build....for me its utmost quality over quantity in spite of the sales I may lose from that business model.

Whether I'm porting a set of heads.....porting a manifold, or building a detailed optimized engine combination....I take the same approach to everything I do as it relates to this hobby (and most other things in life I'm passionate about). At the risk of stating the obvious, I design cylinder heads and intake manifolds for a living....my background offers me a bit of an "edge" shall we say, and when I'm not doing that I'm usually building an engine or doing something related directly to this industry.

Anyway, sorry for the novel. The last thing I would like to add is I really appreciate all the folks that truly understand what I'm about and have done business with me in the past....hopefully we can continue to work together in the future as well.

:chug:

Cheers,
Tony

Does your price include port matching to the heads and the throttle body?

Porting the intake manifold itself, that is without port matching, may not help much, if at all.

example: A fast 102 ported for a AFR 215 head will not match the intake ports on a PRC or a TFS 215 head. This must mean you would need all the parts at your hand to make the most out of a combo since that is what you represent.

Brian Tooley
02-19-2012, 10:00 PM
example: A fast 102 ported for a AFR 215 head will not match the intake ports on a PRC or a TFS 215 head. This must mean you would need all the parts at your hand to make the most out of a combo since that is what you represent.

If you look at the port openings on the TFS 215, 225, 235 and 245 they're all different, and none of them are like an AFR head or a OEM CNC head. If you go with the TFS As Cast heads, they can be different from port to port due to shrink.

The tooling that makes heads and the Fast intakes are made with "shrink" included, meaning that the part in the tooling is made longer than the desired final part, and depending on how hot the material is injected or poured will depend on the total amount of shrink factored into the tooling.

If you port a Fast intake to where every intake port looks symmetrical compared to the o-ring gasket, then it's not going to perfectly match every port in any CNC heads made.

If the intake is taken apart and bolted to the heads, and then the intake is ground to perfectly match the existing ports in the heads, every port will look different in relation to the o-ring gaskets.

I was going to make a video of a Fast port matched to some TFS heads, but to avoid the TFS bashing that might ensue I instead used some new AFR 230 V2 heads. The point is the Fast intake doesn't have the perfect shrink factor, so every port is oriented different in relation to the o-rings. I hope this make sense! http://youtu.be/x0LVddVYfNI

Tony Mamo @ AFR
02-19-2012, 11:04 PM
Does your price include port matching to the heads and the throttle body?

Porting the intake manifold itself, that is without port matching, may not help much, if at all.

example: A fast 102 ported for a AFR 215 head will not match the intake ports on a PRC or a TFS 215 head. This must mean you would need all the parts at your hand to make the most out of a combo since that is what you represent.
Not necessarily true....as long as the port widths are close (and most are) the effectiveness of the porting is still realized.

Turns out most of the ported aftermarket and factory castings are 1.060 - 1.100 wide (I have seen a tremendous amount of heads over the years).....bone stock the port is closer to 1" or even less. No you might see some of the larger cathedrals coming in at 1.120 or so and I usually check with my customer to see if that is the case. Typically I port my intakes to 1.080.....right in the middle of the "average" cross section of heads (our 210, 215, 230, and our 245 all fall in around 1.080 and so do alot of the other aftermarket CNC castings). If I'm porting a stock or close to stock head and the customer will never swap to an aftermarket head I may leave the port opening a little conservative but it will still be larger than the stock entrance.

Bottom line....a .020 and even an .030 mismatch per side (that means the outlet is off almost .060 total) wouldn't effect performance at all. There is very little air flowing near the outside wall of the ports....only very slow moving air called the "boundary layer" which for the most part provides a cushion for the higher speed charge located further off the wall and closer to the center of the port. When reworking intake manifolds in general (not just related to FAST LS intakes), the port match in and of itself does very little (it really just needs to be close).....its all the work further into the port that changes the flow characteristics of the runner and there are some other tricks to the outlet that my more recent ported FAST manifolds feature (in last 6 months or so), different even than the pics in the thread you linked above but that thread gives you a good idea of the extent of the work involved and how much material is actually removed (there is a good bit more removed in the newer intakes I am working on).

Guys, I've been doing this a looooong time (reworking these FAST intakes, tweaking and honing the process along the way) and I have shipped hundreds of these with very positive results....bad news travels fast on the Internet and if you want to take the time to dig you will be hard pressed to find anyone not satisfied with what they got for the money spent, not to mention what they got for actual results. To try and debate the effectiveness of the work now, for this and that reason, this late in the game is almost silly....there are far too many positive results to do so.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn283/Flowizard/PortedFASTTruckIntakeresults-1.jpg


The dyno graph above is proof positive a port match isn't as critical as you might think (not to mention how effective the proper port work can be). It reprsents the back to back results of a cam only 6.0 liter truck. These are the gains seen with STOCK 317 heads (unported....virgin) which always limits the amount of gains from a manifold swap because the large gains are always seen when you have high flow heads and the stock intake cant keep up. I ported this intake to a 1.070 width suspecting this customer was going to install heads at a later date (turns out Im working on a set of Mamofied 230's for him right now). Anyway.....the stock port is about an inch wide....the larger intake leaving a forward step was still extremely effective and if anything exceeded anything we discussed or hoped for prior to the swap. This is a ported LSXRT versus a stock truck intake which actually works pretty well with stock heads....with a notable mismatch at the port opening which I hope I shed some light on here regarding how a "perfect match" isn't really necessary.


Same dyno....no other changes except the intake swap and a larger 102 TB of course.

-Tony

family-man
02-20-2012, 01:50 AM
Hey Tony, at what level of head flow rate would you recommend a Fast 102? I plan to get some trickflow 220 heads for my LS2 and have my 90mm TB ported, most likely by you along with the Intake, but Im undecided on whether or not to track down a 92 or just outright purchase a 102. Im leaning towards the 102, reason being is because the 102 is the most refined design, works with my LS2 fuel rails, etc

Tony Mamo @ AFR
02-20-2012, 12:43 PM
Hey Tony, at what level of head flow rate would you recommend a Fast 102? I plan to get some trickflow 220 heads for my LS2 and have my 90mm TB ported, most likely by you along with the Intake, but Im undecided on whether or not to track down a 92 or just outright purchase a 102. Im leaning towards the 102, reason being is because the 102 is the most refined design, works with my LS2 fuel rails, etc
A stock head can benefit from a properly reworked FAST.....the 317 heads in the comparison I linked above might flow 255 CFM's or so (they were bone stock....unported heads). Your heads flow alot more than that.

The better the heads the larger the gain from the swap as I have mentioned previously but your combination will certainly benefit from the better manifold.

Go 102....its a much better designed intake out of the box and due to its different build/construction design allows me to port it differently (allows me freedoms with the grinder I would have put a hole in the former 78/90/92 series) which compounds the gains even further from the swap. On a really good combination my ported 102 could be worth 10+ more HP over one of my former ported 90/92 intakes (which were no slouches and typically worth a 20-25 RWHP improvement....even more than that if the baseline intake was a LS1/LS2 manifold).

Shoot me a PM if you have an interest in getting something going or have any more questions related to your particular build.

-Tony

revtech101
02-20-2012, 02:57 PM
Not necessarily true....as long as the port widths are close (and most are) the effectiveness of the porting is still realized.

Turns out most of the ported aftermarket and factory castings are 1.060 - 1.100 wide (I have seen a tremendous amount of heads over the years).....bone stock the port is closer to 1" or even less. No you might see some of the larger cathedrals coming in at 1.120 or so and I usually check with my customer to see if that is the case. Typically I port my intakes to 1.080.....right in the middle of the "average" cross section of heads (our 210, 215, 230, and our 245 all fall in around 1.080 and so do alot of the other aftermarket CNC castings). If I'm porting a stock or close to stock head and the customer will never swap to an aftermarket head I may leave the port opening a little conservative but it will still be larger than the stock entrance.

Bottom line....a .020 and even an .030 mismatch per side (that means the outlet is off almost .060 total) wouldn't effect performance at all. There is very little air flowing near the outside wall of the ports....only very slow moving air called the "boundary layer" which for the most part provides a cushion for the higher speed charge located further off the wall and closer to the center of the port. When reworking intake manifolds in general (not just related to FAST LS intakes), the port match in and of itself does very little (it really just needs to be close).....its all the work further into the port that changes the flow characteristics of the runner and there are some other tricks to the outlet that my more recent ported FAST manifolds feature (in last 6 months or so), different even than the pics in the thread you linked above but that thread gives you a good idea of the extent of the work involved and how much material is actually removed (there is a good bit more removed in the newer intakes I am working on).

Guys, I've been doing this a looooong time (reworking these FAST intakes, tweaking and honing the process along the way) and I have shipped hundreds of these with very positive results....bad news travels fast on the Internet and if you want to take the time to dig you will be hard pressed to find anyone not satisfied with what they got for the money spent, not to mention what they got for actual results. To try and debate the effectiveness of the work now, for this and that reason, this late in the game is almost silly....there are far too many positive results to do so.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn283/Flowizard/PortedFASTTruckIntakeresults-1.jpg


The dyno graph above is proof positive a port match isn't as critical as you might think (not to mention how effective the proper port work can be). It reprsents the back to back results of a cam only 6.0 liter truck. These are the gains seen with STOCK 317 heads (unported....virgin) which always limits the amount of gains from a manifold swap because the large gains are always seen when you have high flow heads and the stock intake cant keep up. I ported this intake to a 1.070 width suspecting this customer was going to install heads at a later date (turns out Im working on a set of Mamofied 230's for him right now). Anyway.....the stock port is about an inch wide....the larger intake leaving a forward step was still extremely effective and if anything exceeded anything we discussed or hoped for prior to the swap. This is a ported LSXRT versus a stock truck intake which actually works pretty well with stock heads....with a notable mismatch at the port opening which I hope I shed some light on here regarding how a "perfect match" isn't really necessary.


Same dyno....no other changes except the intake swap and a larger 102 TB of course.

-Tony

I do agree that porting the inside guts of the FAST, modifies the characteristics of the airflow and will help. But there is still power left out by not port matching.

The dyno chart you have provided compared a "ported LSXRT versus a stock truck intake". This is not a fair comparison Tony.

We want a scientific experiment. Over the long years of porting these, you must have a honest apple to apple comparison. Something that a more experienced tuner can be convinced with and not just an average Joe.




An oversized port on the FAST running into an undersized intake port on your favorite head should hurt performance. Be it .01% or 5%.
If I was paying big bucks, everything needs to be ported and port matched. You will make more power guaranteed. This statement can be proven on your flow bench.
Otherwise, this does not represent the best. Do you agree or disagree?

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k6/newageoutlaw911/nonported-fast-01s.jpg



Is the fast intake on your own car port matched to your heads Tony?

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k6/newageoutlaw911/matched-3.jpg

Tony Mamo @ AFR
02-20-2012, 04:44 PM
The dyno chart you have provided compared a "ported LSXRT versus a stock truck intake". This is not a fair comparison Tony.


The comparison above was never meant to be a port match versus non port match comparison....it was shown clearly to illustrate my point that a perfect port match is not required to get the bulk of the gains available when swapping to a better intake. Also, I clearly stated that I felt a small mismatch is acceptable.....not a really bad mismatch like the over ported FAST in your picture. But you would be surprised how small a difference even that scenario would actually be on the dyno where you to test a perfect match against that mismatched intake you featured (if every other part of the manifold itself was kept the same).

I have quite a bit of dyno time and hands on real world experience backing what I'm saying about port matching and how not so critical it really is. Some of the information I have access to is from other highly qualified people that work and test parts on a dyno for a living (flywheel and chassis) and share this kind of information with me. I have personally been privied to multiple back to back testing of manifolds....one of which was port matched and the other out of the box, yielding minimal gains (a couple of HP) and some absolutely nothing. And some of these manifold swaps Im referencing had sizable mismatches....cost me lunch a few times betting what it might be worth with the dyno operator (not even kidding). I've even seen a few where the port matched intake made slightly less power but I suspect there may have been a slight difference in other aspects of that manifold not easily seen by eye.

Truthfully I wish it had a larger impact on things because it would be an easy way to extract more power from a combination but the testing I have done has shown me otherwise. Also note that when I reference personal experience I am speaking of intake manifold testing in general including testing BBC and Gen I 23' SBC which I have alot of dyno time and experience with as well. Ask Richard Holdener, a sharp guy and a very respected author (a guy that spends a ton of time on the dyno testing a host of different things) what he feels about intake port matching....I assure you his sentiment would parallel the point I'm trying to make here and few guys have as much real world experience as he does related to what we are discussing.

In a perfect world if your looking for the last 1-2 HP (such as my personal engine) you optimize and match everything including the port match, but alot of this work does more to give you a better nights sleep than actually add measurably to your combinations power output assuming the port match was reasonably close to begin with which is what I have said all along. A customer getting a manifold from myself ported would have a much better looking situation that the one in your pic without me having the heads in hand. In fact there are areas of the port outlet (and inside the runner for that matter) I barely breathe on with the grinder because I know the material needs to stay there. Its a common mistake I see when I have gotten the opportunity to inspect some other manifold porting....some just make the outlet opening (and area's further up the port) bigger everywhere and that is clearly not a wise move as your picture certainly illustrates. Purposely leaving material in key areas helps flow and is just as important as removing material in others.....its the total package that nets you the big results.

-Tony

revtech101
02-20-2012, 05:23 PM
The comparison above was never meant to be a port match versus non port match comparison....it was shown clearly to illustrate my point that a perfect port match is not required to get the bulk of the gains available when swapping to a better intake. Also, I clearly stated that I felt a small mismatch is acceptable.....not a really bad mismatch like the over ported FAST in your picture. But you would be surprised how small a difference even that scenario would actually be on the dyno where you to test a perfect match against that mismatched intake you featured (if every other part of the manifold itself was kept the same).

I have quite a bit of dyno time and hands on real world experience backing what I'm saying about port matching and how not so critical it really is. Some of the information I have access to is from other highly qualified people that work and test parts on a dyno for a living (flywheel and chassis) and share this kind of information with me. I have personally been privied to multiple back to back testing of manifolds....one of which was port matched and the other out of the box, yielding minimal gains (a couple of HP) and some absolutely nothing. And some of these manifold swaps Im referencing had sizable mismatches....cost me lunch a few times betting what it might be worth with the dyno operator (not even kidding). I've even seen a few where the port matched intake made slightly less power but I suspect there may have been a slight difference in other aspects of that manifold not easily seen by eye.

Truthfully I wish it had a larger impact on things because it would be an easy way to extract more power from a combination but the testing I have done has shown me otherwise. Also note that when I reference personal experience I am speaking of intake manifold testing in general including testing BBC and Gen I 23' SBC which I have alot of dyno time and experience with as well. Ask Richard Holdener, a sharp guy and a very respected author (a guy that spends a ton of time on the dyno testing a host of different things) what he feels about intake port matching....I assure you his sentiment would parallel the point I'm trying to make here and few guys have as much real world experience as he does related to what we are discussing.

In a perfect world if your looking for the last 1-2 HP (such as my personal engine) you optimize and match everything including the port match, but alot of this work does more to give you a better nights sleep than actually add measurably to your combinations power output assuming the port match was reasonably close to begin with which is what I have said all along. A customer getting a manifold from myself ported would have a much better looking situation that the one in your pic without me having the heads in hand. In fact there are areas of the port outlet (and inside the runner for that matter) I barely breathe on with the grinder because I know the material needs to stay there. Its a common mistake I see when I have gotten the opportunity to inspect some other manifold porting....some just make the outlet opening (and area's further up the port) bigger everywhere and that is clearly not a wise move as your picture certainly illustrates. Purposely leaving material in key areas helps flow and is just as important as removing material in others.....its the total package that nets you the big results.

-Tony

How do you know how much of a port miss-match happens by the time an end user installs your ported fast on their heads? Heads that they did not send in for port matching. There is only a .01% chance that they will be close enough, even for your satisfactory standards.
Do you ask your clients to take apart the fast and check the ports in its installed position to avoid situations such as the picture I have posted?

I would not be surprised at what a good ported+port matched combo would do against an individually ported parts slapped together. You know which one represents the best and that is why you have what you have. I would preach exactly just that. :nod:

On a FI car, this tiny loss in torque and hp due to mis-matched ports will amplify.

DietCoke
03-02-2012, 06:30 PM
My ls7 102 came back today. 110% satisfied with Tony's work :)

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn163/GhostRL/DSC04727.jpg

chrs1313
03-03-2012, 09:56 PM
Agreed this is the problem I saw with both my 92 & 102 intake. The ports on the fast are not exactly the same as the heads and there is a slight shift. My fast 102 looked the same after I ported it...front runners were thin on one side and the back ones were thin on other side...


If you look at the port openings on the TFS 215, 225, 235 and 245 they're all different, and none of them are like an AFR head or a OEM CNC head. If you go with the TFS As Cast heads, they can be different from port to port due to shrink.

The tooling that makes heads and the Fast intakes are made with "shrink" included, meaning that the part in the tooling is made longer than the desired final part, and depending on how hot the material is injected or poured will depend on the total amount of shrink factored into the tooling.

If you port a Fast intake to where every intake port looks symmetrical compared to the o-ring gasket, then it's not going to perfectly match every port in any CNC heads made.

If the intake is taken apart and bolted to the heads, and then the intake is ground to perfectly match the existing ports in the heads, every port will look different in relation to the o-ring gaskets.

I was going to make a video of a Fast port matched to some TFS heads, but to avoid the TFS bashing that might ensue I instead used some new AFR 230 V2 heads. The point is the Fast intake doesn't have the perfect shrink factor, so every port is oriented different in relation to the o-rings. I hope this make sense! http://youtu.be/x0LVddVYfNI