Carbureted LSX forum - Why do efi guys have so much trouble?

I ran a msd 6ls box on my carbed 99 camaro and 91 mustang with no issues on the tune. You always are reading problems with the tuning of efi cars. Motors running to lean not idling tranny issues and such. What the hell is the problem?

difference between someone who bolts on parts and someone who has mechanical knowledge

I ran a msd 6ls box on my carbed 99 camaro and 91 mustang with no issues on the tune. You always are reading problems with the tuning of efi cars. Motors running to lean not idling tranny issues and such. What the hell is the problem?

You're kinda stuck on the carb deal aren't you? You realize, NOTHING comes with a carb anymore, right? And if you've been working on cars long enough (I doubt you have) then I'm sure you've seen PLENTY of carb problems as well. You know, leaky bowls, blown power valves, bad hesitation from worn accelerator pump diaphrams, vacuum leaks from warped base plates.

I mean, surely you don't think a carb can maintain perfect stoich., do you? Or start up and drive away cold. Or automatically idle up when you turn the AC on.

Yeah, carbs are great. On drag cars that run for 7 seconds at a time, and then click it on the big end. We should all yank our EFI off, and throw carbs back on. What the hell were the auto makers thinking? :bang:

You just started it now! This should be good!

You're kinda stuck on the carb deal aren't you? You realize, NOTHING comes with a carb anymore, right? And if you've been working on cars long enough (I doubt you have) then I'm sure you've seen PLENTY of carb problems as well. You know, leaky bowls, blown power valves, bad hesitation from worn accelerator pump diaphrams, vacuum leaks from warped base plates.

I mean, surely you don't think a carb can maintain perfect stoich., do you? Or start up and drive away cold. Or automatically idle up when you turn the AC on.

Yeah, carbs are great. On drag cars that run for 7 seconds at a time, and then click it on the big end. We should all yank our EFI off, and throw carbs back on. What the hell were the auto makers thinking? :bang:

First of all douche I am 55 years old and know more about automotive history then you do so piss off. Go back to your pissing thread.

You just started it now! This should be good!Dude likes to blow his horn. If he is such a computer freak he should be making millions. The guys who came up with the computer programs are genius. Those that started to tune are the learners. And it takes years and years to get it right at the cost of motors and such.

Dude likes to blow his horn. If he is such a computer freak he should be making millions. The guys who came up with the computer programs are genius. Those that started to tune are the learners. And it takes years and years to get it right at the cost of motors and such.

I'm 45, an ASE master tech and ASE advanced level certified, and have been for 20 years. I have been tuning EFI systems since the mid 90s, when the tuning programs were all CDOS based. Why is it you cannot have a civil conversation without stooping to name calling? You're 55 yet talk like you're 15.

I've tuned thousands of cars, including carbed cars. Some very very fast ones I might add.

PS, as for money, I don't do too bad.

Dude likes to blow his horn. If he is such a computer freak he should be making millions. The guys who came up with the computer programs are genius. Those that started to tune are the learners. And it takes years and years to get it right at the cost of motors and such.

Since I like to blow my own horn, and of course because I can't possibly be any good at this, I thought I might share some of my not so good work with you.

Can you do this with a carb? 4400 lbs, and 10.70s at 130+?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJYB9Bs4C7E&list=UUoQtFYvEw1AolYxt5eSncjQ&index=3&feature=plcp

Or how bout this one??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7RjtYcGulM

And here's me in China tuning GTRs and Corvettes and Mustangs, OH MY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1GyU9V0zPY&list=UUoQtFYvEw1AolYxt5eSncjQ&index=6&feature=plcp

Yeah I suck so bad, I gained 100 hp at the wheels in the GTR!! LOL

What the hell were the auto makers thinking? :bang:

That if they don't use EFI they will never meet the cold start emission rules and the fed won't let them sell the vehicle.

No way would the automakers have switched to EFI if not for the smog nazi's forcing them.

By the way, the rest of this discussion is juvenile.

The money is the issue with the efi for me. Its a racket IMO.

And here's me tuning Corvettes in Austria. Yeah, it'll take me years and a bunch of blown up motors, but until then, the ignorant public flies me around the world to tune their cars. LOL

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p58/edcmat-l1/Salzberg%20Austria%202011/Z06sAustria2.jpg

An if you think I'm BSing you, here's my photobucket album of my 2011 trip to Austria. It was my 5th trip to Europe to tune. I go to Germany/Austria about once a year, and China 1 or 2 times a year. Not too bad for a guy that blows his own horn, eh?

http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p58/edcmat-l1/Salzberg%20Austria%202011/

I wasn't dogging you, you ran your mouth about me inferring I am an ignorant type person with little to no skills. You attacked me Ed. I just believe there are too many people out there trying to tune efi and have not even basic knowledge of what they are doing. I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. And you come on here blowing your horn. You are being a douche.

Man you really need to read yourself. I would say there are maybe 20 to 30 meople capable of tuning to an inth degree. I never attacked you and do not know or care who you are. I am running efi and have someone to tune it. His own truck puts out 1300 hp with air and powersteering. Ok?

I never attacked you. To think no one can tune EFI, or that a carb, in this day and age, is superior to EFI, is ignorant. Plain and simple. It is.

There are far more than 20 or 30 people that can tune very well. You really don't know what you're talking about. That's not an attack, you just don't. You don't know what's available for software. You don't know who can do what.

If you take that as an attack, I'm sorry. It isn't.

As for reading myself, I posted what I did to show you that I'm no jack leg. Not to mention, I'm proud of what I've accomplished.

I've been doing this a long, long time. I tune carbs. i'm old enough to tune carbs and points. But I'm young enough that I cut my teeth on EFI in the very early stages of it.

I have an honest question. Why in the hell can't the efi tune itself? And I'm not an idiot before you ask!

I never attacked you. To think no one can tune EFI, or that a carb, in this day and age, is superior to EFI, is ignorant. Plain and simple. It is.

There are far more than 20 or 30 people that can tune very well. You really don't know what you're talking about. That's not an attack, you just don't. You don't know what's available for software. You don't know who can do what.

If you take that as an attack, I'm sorry. It isn't.

As for reading myself, I posted what I did to show you that I'm no jack leg. Not to mention, I'm proud of what I've accomplished.

I've been doing this a long, long time. I tune carbs. i'm old enough to tune carbs and points. But I'm young enough that I cut my teeth on EFI in the very early stages of it.My point in this thread has nothing to do with you. I have never said squat about your knowledge or my opinion of it. Go abuse someone else, please. Since you are not into carbs why did you post here? There are guys running lo 9's on carbs n/a all day long and faster. It doesn't take efi to make power. The government forced the computer issue and that's fine. Ya I am the ignorant one and you are arrogant. Let your work speak for itself. Tune points? You set the dwell dude 28-32 really simple. I didn't start this fight just wanted to show good efi tuners are not in abundance you turned it personal.

I have an honest question. Why in the hell can't the efi tune itself? And I'm not an idiot before you ask!

There are some aftermarket systems that tout "self tuning" but the fact of the matter is, there's so many different tables that need to be modified, or setup properly in the case of an aftermarket standalone, that it's almost impossible to have a system completely tune itself.

Even a system as simple as the F bodies, with IAC controls, just for an example. This system still needs a mechanical adjustment of the throttle blade and TPS to get the IAC counts correct, and to make it idle properly, and return to idle properly. This is just one example.

I will agree with the OP in that there are a lot of guys out there with software that don't know what they're doing. There's even professionals that don't know what they're doing. But that's in any occupation or industry. There's good doctors, and really bad ones.

Back to EFI. A well set up system is a thing of beauty. The one thing EFI provides that is far superior to a carb is it's tuneability. There is an almost infinite amount of adjustability built in to most every EFI system regardless of make. A carb can't even come close.

And for the record, you asked a legitimate question. You didn't come on and make a senseless comment.

My point in this thread has nothing to do with you. I have never said squat about your knowledge or my opinion of it. Go abuse someone else, please. Since you are not into carbs why did you post here? There are guys running lo 9's on carbs n/a all day long and faster. It doesn't take efi to make power. The government forced the computer issue and that's fine. Ya I am the ignorant one and you are arrogant. Let your work speak for itself. Tune points? You set the dwell dude 28-32 really simple. I didn't start this fight just wanted to show good efi tuners are not in abundance you turned it personal.

Who said I'm not into carbs? Now you're putting words in my mouth? You're kind of harsh don't you think? I'm not abusing anyone here. You made some comments, this is a forum, and I'm responding.

And because this thread is about soooo many people having problems with EFI, and I tune EFI, I guess it kind of IS about me.

I never said you can't make power with a carb. Everyone knows you can. That's not even a debate. My thing is, you're in here, and in the other thread, telling people to put carbs on their late model engines/cars, when it completely doesn't make sense. Why would someone go back 30 years? No matter what you do, that carb will never run as good as even a half way decently tuned EFI system. Not to mention all the issues you'd cause with all the rest of the systems involved with the engine controls. ABS brakes, traction control, even the dashboard would freak out.

I will agree though that really good EFI tuners aren't overly abundant.

Who said I'm not into carbs? Now you're putting words in my mouth? You're kind of harsh don't you think? I'm not abusing anyone here. You made some comments, this is a forum, and I'm responding.

And because this thread is about soooo many people having problems with EFI, and I tune EFI, I guess it kind of IS about me.

I never said you can't make power with a carb. Everyone knows you can. That's not even a debate. My thing is, you're in here, and in the other thread, telling people to put carbs on their late model engines/cars, when it completely doesn't make sense. Why would someone go back 30 years? no matter what you do, that carb will never run as good as even a half way decently tuned EFI system. Not to mention all the issues you'd cause with all the rest of the systems involved with the engine controls. ABS brakes, traction control, even the dashboard would freak out.

I will agree though that really good EFI tuners aren't overly abundant.I didn't tell him to do it nor have I led a charge to do so. I just said what I did. If I didn't have a 4.11 gear in my camaro and had a 700 or 200 it could have pulled over 20 mpg's. You are wrong about the point of this. My carbed car started in 5 degree weather and was more dependable then the efi tuned car I had by a long shot. Since carbs are so outdated why did msd and others take the time to develop the 6ls and others? Maybe you should call and tell them they are wrong. In fact I was on your side on that thread. I just watched the pissing match. And yes I believe the carb will be here a long time.

I've tuned a pro mod for the last 5 years and we run mechanical fuel injection and "I" feel like its the best for an all out race car. When you're racing infinite tuneability is just for convo's, at some point its a batch dump situation. We shift at 9800 rpms and I doubt it matters how exact the fuel timing is at that point but I may be wrong?! We've been 3's with our last two "steel bodied" cars so I'm not just trying to argue on the net for fun. Please be civil as that's what I'm trying to do.

There are a lot of guys in the KC, Mo. area that tune efi cars. Out of the 200 maybe 2 or 3 are really capable of doing it. That was my point and that is why so many of the drag racers go distributor and carb to protect and tune their own. Is there anything wrong with that?

I've tuned a pro mod for the last 5 years and we run mechanical fuel injection and "I" feel like its the best for an all out race car. When you're racing infinite tuneability is just for convo's, at some point its a batch dump situation. We shift at 9800 rpms and I doubt it matters how exact the fuel timing is at that point but I may be wrong?! We've been 3's with our last two "steel bodied" cars so I'm not just trying to argue on the net for fun. Please be civil as that's what I'm trying to do.How is tuning mechanical fi different? It's been around a long long time.

I've tuned a pro mod for the last 5 years and we run mechanical fuel injection and "I" feel like its the best for an all out race car. When you're racing infinite tuneability is just for convo's, at some point its a batch dump situation. We shift at 9800 rpms and I doubt it matters how exact the fuel timing is at that point but I may be wrong?! We've been 3's with our last two "steel bodied" cars so I'm not just trying to argue on the net for fun. Please be civil as that's what I'm trying to do.

I can absolutely be civil. I hope you don't think my response to your post was uncivil.

I tuned a TS/Q16 car for a couple years. Consistent 4.50 car. This was almost 10 years ago. Carbed, with 1 kit. Also tuned an alky funny car for a spell. A match race car. Blown alky, of course mechanical FI on that one.

I'm not arguing that carbs can't run well on a race car, or that you can even run them on the street, but to say they're superior to EFI in any way is ridiculous.

Even in a all out race app, EFI would be at least more efficient at making power. The turbo Pro Mods are running EFI. They run pretty good LOL

F1, EFI. NASCAR, EFI. ALMS, SCCA, both EFI.

It just has jets pretty much like a carb but they're in each intake runner and one for the return. You use EGT's to tune each cylinder. I guess to me it seems very easy?

We ran the ADRL for a little while and if you didn't have a screw supercharger in our class you didn't even make the race. We haven't run any of those races in the last couple of years but if you didn't have a screw and MFI you didn't make the field. Our car is junk in comparison to most of the stuff we raced but we did go 3.88 @195 with a chevy motor. 2600lbs too!

I can absolutely be civil. I hope you don't think my response to your post was uncivil.

I tuned a TS/Q16 car for a couple years. Consistent 4.50 car. This was almost 10 years ago. Carbed, with 1 kit. Also tuned an alky funny car for a spell. A match race car. Blown alky, of course mechanical FI on that one.

I'm not arguing that carbs can't run well on a race car, or that you can even run them on the street, but to say they're superior to EFI in any way is ridiculous.

Even in a all out race app, EFI would be at least more efficient at making power. The turbo Pro Mods are running EFI. They run pretty good LOL

F1, EFI. NASCAR, EFI. ALMS, SCCA, both EFI.I never said carbs were better except in the case of my poor efi tune. Lower emissions, better fuel economy longer lasting motors. My whole point has been that the real professional tuners are few and far between and so many are getting ripped on a bad tune. It doesn't go any farther then that. When I changed one single thing on my efi car I had to drive 40 minutes and the guy took an hour and a half to retune it and it did not run better. I just got tired of it and since I lacked the knowledge I changed over and was very happy with the results but heard so much bad from the efi guys. Do you understand?

We ran the ADRL for a little while and if you didn't have a screw supercharger in our class you didn't even make the race. We haven't run any of those races in the last couple of years but if you didn't have a screw and MFI you didn't make the field. Our car is junk in comparison to most of the stuff we raced but we did go 3.88 @195 with a chevy motor. 2600lbs too!Nice. Pro mods are freaks.

They run 3.50's with door cars now. We can't compete with a steel car, a small blower, 2 men, and no sponsor!

They run 3.50's with door cars now. We can't compete with a steel car, a small blower, 2 men, and no sponsor!That is too much as far as I am concerned. It's who has the most money and it's not based on car crafting in the old sense. I hope you have continued in another facet of the sport.

Oh yeah, I'm a grudge racer in my day job! Lol! I've got a few cars. I'm a dollar for dollar type guy myself. I make changes one at a time and if the part doesn't help it comes off.

Oh yeah, I'm a grudge racer in my day job! Lol! I've got a few cars. I'm a dollar for dollar type guy myself. I make changes one at a time and if the part doesn't help it comes off.Same here. It's the little things that make the big difference in my opinion.

Yeah, I put a lid and a filter on my car and it didn't help a bit so it came back off. I'm gonna cycle it back on as I mod it but I doubt it will make much difference. I'm a old 454 man myself. If I can go high 6's on motor for about 2K in a street car I'm fine. I don't really get off on dyno numbers. How fast is the damn thing is what I want to know!

You're kinda stuck on the carb deal aren't you? You realize, NOTHING comes with a carb anymore, right? And if you've been working on cars long enough (I doubt you have) then I'm sure you've seen PLENTY of carb problems as well. You know, leaky bowls, blown power valves, bad hesitation from worn accelerator pump diaphrams, vacuum leaks from warped base plates.

I mean, surely you don't think a carb can maintain perfect stoich., do you? Or start up and drive away cold. Or automatically idle up when you turn the AC on.

Yeah, carbs are great. On drag cars that run for 7 seconds at a time, and then click it on the big end. We should all yank our EFI off, and throw carbs back on. What the hell were the auto makers thinking? :bang:

spoken like a true efi guy who never knew how to really tune a carb. :D carbs can maintain very clean idle and part throttle a/f numbers. wide open they'll hold a flat air/fuel curve to the point you wouldn't know if it was efi or carb. seen it with my own eyes time and time again. a "chokeless" carb may not idle right away when it's cold but it will start up and drive away with no issues if it's tuned right. :nod: when i say carbs i mean 4150/4500 style holleys.

spoken like a true efi guy who never knew how to really tune a carb. :D carbs can maintain very clean idle and part throttle a/f numbers. wide open they'll hold a flat air/fuel curve to the point you wouldn't know if it was efi or carb. seen it with my own eyes time and time again. a "chokeless" carb may not idle right away when it's cold but it will start up and drive away with no issues if it's tuned right. :nod: when i say carbs i mean 4150/4500 style holleys.Agreed. My holley 750 dp ran 12.9 a/f wot and at cruise a tad over 14:1 cruise. Tremendous throttle response. Not a hiccup. Both have their shining spots.

I do agree that efi is far more tuneable but at some point its not needed. The software and or tuning cost turns me away from it. It makes it difficult to continue to try new things because you get charged everytime you want to try something different. And god forbid if someone decides to just buy a handheld tuner! They're gonna get talked about like they are the biggest tard in the world.

spoken like a true efi guy who never knew how to really tune a carb. :D carbs can maintain very clean idle and part throttle a/f numbers. wide open they'll hold a flat air/fuel curve to the point you wouldn't know if it was efi or carb. seen it with my own eyes time and time again. a "chokeless" carb may not idle right away when it's cold but it will start up and drive away with no issues if it's tuned right. :nod: when i say carbs i mean 4150/4500 style holleys.

I've tuned more carbs on my days of than you've read about in your hotrod magazines. Maybe you should have read further than my first post before posting yourself. I built and tuned plenty of them over my 30 years as an automotive professional. 4150s, 4500s, Q-jets, Carters, etc.

I've tuned more carbs on my days of than you've read about in your hotrod magazines. Maybe you should have read further than my first post before posting yourself. I built and tuned plenty of them over my 30 years as an automotive professional. 4150s, 4500s, Q-jets, Carters, etc.Why do you feel this is an attack on you? It isn't. I am sure you are good at what you do. I can't say the best because I haven't personally seen your work but you are the only one here tooting your horn about how great you are. I just asked a simple question and you are turning this into a rant. I did not choose to make my career to be ase ceritied because I raised a family. So I didn't travel around the world and collect videos of what I accomplished. But I enjoy about as much as I can in the automotive world. I just have not seen something like this on any thread in 3+ years. I apologize for asking a simple question. You were given the oppurtunity to answer and you did agree with me about the lack of true knowledgeble tuners. I know that is true. As to the better of the two, carb or efi, it's a personal choice imo. It worked great and it put the tuning back in my hands. Now I'll let the efi guy play with it on my car and do his magic. I have heard he is pretty good. I am just not a good computer guy.

By the by I love the Q-jets. Some say they are junk but a nice carb imo.

Is it not fair and accurate to say that as car guys, we have never had it better than we have it now? 600-800 street horsepower with all the options, AND emission legal (I personally don't give a damn about emissions, but unfortunately the Feds do)?

Then the race guys can choose more ways to go fast than have ever been available in history...

I grew up at the height of the "muscle car" era and was lucky enough to be able to buy any number of them...it's better now than it's ever been!!! IMO

Is it not fair and accurate to say that as car guys, we have never had it better than we have it now? 600-800 street horsepower with all the options, AND emission legal (I personally don't give a damn about emissions, but unfortunately the Feds do)?

Then the race guys can choose more ways to go fast than have ever been available in history...

I grew up at the height of the "muscle car" era and was lucky enough to be able to buy any number of them...it's better now than it's ever been!!! IMOSo true. But everything has advanced cylinder heads, camshafts roller lifters trannies. Carbs too.

I've tuned more carbs on my days of than you've read about in your hotrod magazines. Maybe you should have read further than my first post before posting yourself. I built and tuned plenty of them over my 30 years as an automotive professional. 4150s, 4500s, Q-jets, Carters, etc.

i'm sure i tuned more carbs in the last year than you have in the last 30. i stopped reading hot rod years ago anyways thank you.:D you were loud and clear in your post about carbs. you weren't very good at them so now your nutt swinging on fuel injection. :swing: :nod: but it's all good cause i'm a carb nuttswinger as you can tell. :D you cannot beat the simplicity of a good carb setup. they can meter fuel very well in a street car "AND" at w.o.t in a race car. i guess that's why they make carbureted intakes for engines that will never see a carb from the factory. :cheers:

this thread is crap:engarde:

this thread is crap:engarde:No doubt a pissing match. No winners.

No doubt a pissing match. No winners.

aw come on man. it ain't that bad. ;)

lol edcmat.. i knew you were good.. never knew you globe trotted... thats awesome :)

I read the beginning and skipped to the end. Did we ever find out whose dick is bigger?

can't find mine.

:lurk: