Automotive News, Media & Press - jan. sales for camaro, mustang and challenger

http://forums.themustangsource.com/f726/january-2012-mustang-sales-figures-504731/

stupid mustang nut swinging by that one guy. LOL.

Glad to see that all three pony cars are selling in relatively decent numbers. :nod:
That Camaro gamble that GM took really paid off too. When we'd first heard that they were building/reinventing a new one I figured it might do 'ok' in the marketplace but never dreamed that it would sell this well for such a continuous period of time like it has.
Kudos to GM/Chevrolet for making it happen. :cheers:

stupid mustang nut swinging by that one guy. LOL.

yes, thats really ignorant. just give 5th gens credit.

Glad to see that all three pony cars are selling in relatively decent numbers. :nod:
That Camaro gamble that GM took really paid off too. When we'd first heard that they were building/reinventing a new one I figured it might do 'ok' in the marketplace but never dreamed that it would sell this well for such a continuous period of time like it has.
Kudos to GM/Chevrolet for making it happen. :cheers:


GM really got 5th gens right regardless of alot of criticism it gets on this site. shows who really is buying these cars and im hoping to add to it this month. i said hope.

GM really got 5th gens right regardless of alot of criticism it gets on this site

But it's so slow!!! http://ls1tech.com/forums/15906592-post21.html

Haters gonna hate. The ls3 is a superior motor when compared to the 5.0. Nuff said.

and im hoping to add to it this month. i said hope.:cool:
Please don't sell that HOSS to get it though. :D

Haters gonna hate.

Fantastic motor and car, but the majority of posts on this site about the 5th gen would lead you to believe that a stock ls1 fbody can out run one. I bet there are more stock 5th gens in the 12's than stock ls1 fbody's.

But it's so slow!!! http://ls1tech.com/forums/15906592-post21.html

You really think that is slow for a car that weighs over 4200 pounds has 20 inch tires and driven by a average guy? Now i know we all want faster times but hell thats not to shabby imo i dont see why 11's couldnt happen with slicks,tune and a bolt on or two once again with a HEAVY AZZ car.:D

I bet there are more stock 5th gens in the 12's than stock ls1 fbody's.Oh I think that's almost a given, I'd guess that the ratio is probably like 4 to 1.
I personally know of three separate bone stock 2010/2011 SSs in the 12s. :nod:

You really think that is slow for a car that weighs over 4200 pounds has 20 inch tires and driven by a average guy? Now i know we all want faster times but hell thats not to shabby imo i dont see why 11's couldnt happen with slicks,tune and a bolt on or two once again with a HEAVY AZZ car.:D

I was not serious.

Man....and i thought all the cry baby nutswingers were on this site. Those replies are unbelievable, I didn't think people like that even existed off of the Honda boards.

You really think that is slow for a car that weighs over 4200 pounds has 20 inch tires and driven by a average guy? Now i know we all want faster times but hell thats not to shabby imo i dont see why 11's couldnt happen with slicks,tune and a bolt on or two once again with a HEAVY AZZ car.:D

A loaded 5th gen camaro SS with manual transmission is 3860 with a full tank of gas.

11.6 @ 119 has been done with bolt ons and slicks.

:cool:
Please don't sell that HOSS to get it though. :D

never. heres a more positive site.



http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199133&highlight=camaro+mustang+sales

Wow.

So much maturity...

Shows how simple minded america is. People are dumb enough to buy An overpriced, hideous, obese muscle car that gets its a$$ handed to it by a far superior, less expensive and better looking mustang. All for what? The camaro name? The chevy name? GM is a s**t company always has been. Ford didn't take the bailout people. You know why? Because they make a better product. Its kinda good for me though. Everyone and there mother has a camaro here in the capital region. Cant wait to roll out my "one of a kind" 2013 GT premium and show these mullets whats up.

http://www.memestick.com/images/MULTIPIC/u%20mad%20bro.jpg

Seriously, that guy sounds more upset and wrong then anything. It's funny how even his own kind are basically calling him out for being an idiot. The 5.0 is a dam fine car and basically shows GM what they did wrong by letting the Camaro be so heavy but I wouldn't go as far as to say stock for stock the 5.0 hands a LS3 it's ass.

As others have stated, it's dam good to see all 3 of these awesome cars doing so well in sales and bringing us newer and even better models such as a the 2013 GT500 and ZL1 not to mention the 392 Challenger is also something. If it weren't for all the good sales and competition to each other we would be stuck with boring models probably.

A loaded 5th gen camaro SS with manual transmission is 3860 with a full tank of gas.

11.6 @ 119 has been done with bolt ons and slicks.True. :nod:

The NA/heads & cam record for 5th gens is now 10.83 and 129mph as well. :drive:

the only reason the new camaro is outselling the mustang is the transformers movies :eyes:

A loaded 5th gen camaro SS with manual transmission is 3860 with a full tank of gas.

11.6 @ 119 has been done with bolt ons and slicks.

OPPS....you are right i made a boo boo on that one huh well i guess if you add in a 200lb driver with a fat girl friend i would be right?:engarde::D

the only reason the new camaro is outselling the mustang is the transformers movies :eyes:

This is what we call advertising.

Some do it better than others.

The camaro is really growing on me.
I wish it was lighter, but it seems like it would make for a really bad ass daily driver.
I'll be monitoring used car prices for them in the coming years.

Haters gonna hate. The ls3 is a superior motor when compared to the 5.0. Nuff said.maybe superior to the old 5.0...but not the coyote 5.0. but i understand your a GM homer so debating this is useless:sack:

Apples to Oranges.

They seem roughly equivalent to me.

the 5.0 is a tough motor but some people act like the ls3 is a boat anchor I just dont get it. I like the platform of the lsx because how easy it is to work on ie. cam swaps and massive stroker kits. However for just a bolt on car maybe 5.0s have it. I think if it werent for the weight and irs it wouldnt be the case.

i agree i think the ls3 is way better of a motor than the 5.0, its just the rest of the car that kills it, give it time though once 5th gen prices come down and some more skilled people can get there hands on them i think we will think better things about the 5th gen, but untill then its a heavy car with so so performance

Apples to Oranges.

They seem roughly equivalent to me.the 5.0 is a tough motor but some people act like the ls3 is a boat anchor I just dont get it. I like the platform of the lsx because how easy it is to work on ie. cam swaps and massive stroker kits. However for just a bolt on car maybe 5.0s have it. I think if it werent for the weight and irs it wouldnt be the case.I agree. They're BOTH great motors but in the 'stock' or 'bolt ons only' race between the SS and the GT, it's very likely the damn extra 200+ pounds (and 20" wheels/tires) of the SS that are keeping them from being otherwise pretty damn evenly matched. It is what it is, we can't do the 'what ifs' and 'but ifs' here, but both motors are making GREAT power and push these two cars along nicely. :burn:
And of course the new 392/6.4L Hemi motor has now brought the (heavier and much more costly) Challenger SRT8 into contention here as well. :nod:

See, that's the thing with opinions.


Everybody has one and they think that their opinion is the only one that matters.

See, that's the thing with opinions.


Everybody has one and they think that their opinion is the only one that matters.

^This. I enjoy the feel of driving an OHV engine more than an OHC, so that's what I choose. That said, I love Mustangs too, just not as much.

The original thread in the mustang forum gave me a headache. We have our nutswinging here, but over there it just seems blind.

Someone posed a question of what times a 2002 Camaro and Mustang would run with basic bolt-ons. To which he was answered "LT4's had 330hp and the LT5 had 405hp...make my engine OHC please!"

Someone posed a question of what times a 2002 Camaro and Mustang would run with basic bolt-ons. To which he was answered "LT4's had 330hp and the LT5 had 405hp...make my engine OHC please!"Wow. :nono:

Board is like this one, couple idiots and trolls and few who know what the fuck is going on.

The original thread in the mustang forum gave me a headache. We have our nutswinging here, but over there it just seems blind.



There are blind posters over here too. You just don't see them in the same light because they have similar interests to you (F-Body/OHV).

I like my car better than a new Camaro, Mustang or Challenger...flame me (puts flame suit on).

In recent years I have steered away from biases and tried to be accepting of all car people. Only when people are down right wrong (yet very "sure" about what they are talking about) do I feel like they need to be put in their place.

On the other hand, I love to debate and I do have some preferences, which many people confuse with nutswinging and biases.

In recent years I have steered away from biases and tried to be accepting of all car people. Only when people are down right wrong (yet very "sure" about what they are talking about) do I feel like they need to be put in their place.

On the other hand, I love to debate and I do have some preferences, which many people confuse with nutswinging and biases.



LoL, I think the majority of people have biases and are to a certain extent "nutswingers".

People that are truly unbiased are in the vast minority IMO.

lol....that site is hilarious! I'm surprised they even posted that information if they're going to bitch about it.

maybe superior to the old 5.0...but not the coyote 5.0. but i understand your a GM homer so debating this is usless:sack:

You're kidding right?
The LS3 is lighter, smaller, more powerful and cheaper. The Coyote 5.0 is a great engine, but to say its a better performance engine out of the box then the LS3 is just wrong.

You're kidding right?
The LS3 is lighter, smaller, more powerful and cheaper. The Coyote 5.0 is a great engine, but to say its a better performance engine out of the box then the LS3 is just wrong.no i am not kidding. you are right the LS3 is hella more powerful 426hp>412hp all day long:eyes: wake up dude. LS3 is 1.2L bigger and can only outpower the coyote by 14hp=weak sauce. just in case you dont remember, the coyote was hitting 10s a month after its release, and 9s a couple of months later, and 8s before the end of the first model year. i like GM just like any other person here, but i am not blind to the facts.

Glad to see that all three pony cars are selling in relatively decent numbers. :nod:
That Camaro gamble that GM took really paid off too. When we'd first heard that they were building/reinventing a new one I figured it might do 'ok' in the marketplace but never dreamed that it would sell this well for such a continuous period of time like it has.
Kudos to GM/Chevrolet for making it happen. :cheers:

when i heard gm was bringing back the camaro, i knew it would sell like hotcakes. i never really understood why they stopped building it to begin with.

this is a good time to be a hot rodder......we have the muscle car wars all over again, except that todays easily outshine yesterdays.

In recent years I have steered away from biases and tried to be accepting of all car people. Only when people are down right wrong (yet very "sure" about what they are talking about) do I feel like they need to be put in their place.

On the other hand, I love to debate and I do have some preferences, which many people confuse with nutswinging and biases.

there's only 2 kinds of "car people" i don't like.

1)ricers. can't friggin stand the sound of those angry bumblebees.
2)blind brand loyalists. it doesn't matter ford, chevy, dodge......get real. a fucking engine has no clue what name is stamped on its valve covers. it only knows what you put in it.

other than that, i like most all car people.

no i am not kidding. you are right the LS3 is hella more powerful 426hp>412hp all day long:eyes: wake up dude. LS3 is 1.2L bigger and can only outpower the coyote by 14hp=weak sauce. just in case you dont remember, the coyote was hitting 10s a month after its release, and 9s a couple of months later, and 8s before the end of the first model year. i like GM just like any other person here, but i am not blind to the facts.

Displacement is the only thing that matters in making horsepower?
The 5.0 is running 4 cams, 32 valves and more compression. I guess that doesnt mean a damn thing?

The two companies have chosen to go about making power in different ways. Both have pluses and minuses.

For max effort strip NA one would probably opt for the ls3. The 5.0 can only be taken to about 318 cubes. Heads and cam with stock bottom end the ls3 is showing about a 30hp advantage. This would only grow further if one were to stroke out the ls3 and the 5.0 is stuck at 318 cubes.

And yes it hit 10s in months after its release. Evolutions shop car with 500lbs removed. Congrats. LS1 cars have went 9's na years ago with extensive weight reduction. Hell...bolt on ls2's (vette vs stripped stang) that weigh more than that car have went 10's.

no i am not kidding. you are right the LS3 is hella more powerful 426hp>412hp all day long:eyes: wake up dude. LS3 is 1.2L bigger and can only outpower the coyote by 14hp=weak sauce. just in case you dont remember, the coyote was hitting 10s a month after its release, and 9s a couple of months later, and 8s before the end of the first model year. i like GM just like any other person here, but i am not blind to the facts.

I look at it this way. Ford is using 4 times as many cams and can't even make the same power. Whats up with that!?

Aren't ricer arguments great?

Wait...no...they're not.

You're comparing two completely different kinds of motors. It isn't 1970 anymore, and displacement isn't the only thing that makes power. The fact of the matter is, if you're talking strictly between the two engines (NOT the camaro vs. mustang) The LS3 makes more power (even if you think it doesn't matter) AND it's lighter.

Also (not that I think it really matters, but I think it should be taken note of while we're on the subject) take a look at the air intake and exhaust manifolds on the new 5.0, it's pretty much got a CAI and shorty headers on it from the factory. The LS3's exhaust manifolds and air intake are garbage if I understand correctly.

Displacement is the only thing that matters in making horsepower?
The 5.0 is running 4 cams, 32 valves and more compression. I guess that doesnt mean a damn thing?
The two companies have chosen to go about making power in different ways. Both have pluses and minuses.

For max effort strip NA one would probably opt for the ls3. The 5.0 can only be taken to about 318 cubes. Heads and cam with stock bottom end the ls3 is showing about a 30hp advantage. This would only grow further if one were to stroke out the ls3 and the 5.0 is stuck at 318 cubes.

And yes it hit 10s in months after its release. Evolutions shop car with 500lbs removed. Congrats. LS1 cars have went 9's na years ago with extensive weight reduction. Hell...bolt on ls2's (vette vs stripped stang) that weigh more than that car have went 10's.blame GM for not going the same route. what i am trying to say is the LS3 is NOT superior to to a coyote motor, might be on par, but NOT superior...your last point about LS1s reminds me of that scene from Coming to America... "Der they go, Der they go!! Everytime we start talkin about boxing someone has to bring Rocky Marciano out der ass...Rocky Marciano was good, but compared to GEORGE LEWIS, HE AINT SHIT!"...:D

blame GM for not going the same route. what i am trying to say is the LS3 is NOT superior to to a coyote motor, might be on par, but NOT superior...your last point about LS1s reminds me of that scene from Coming to America... "Der they go, Der they go!! Everytime we start talkin about boxing someone has to bring Rocky Marciano out der ass...Rocky Marciano was good, but compared to GEORGE LEWIS, HE AINT SHIT!"...:D

I personally would like to thank GM for producing a lighter engine that makes more power, but hey, that's just me.
If less power and more weight is your thing, you're going to love the specs on the 5th gen SS's with automatics!

:poke:

People kill me that say ford didnt take the bailout an you know why? lol Its cause they sold a lot of stocks or whatever a few years back an saved their ass then.

honestly i like the new 5.0 for its great straight line capabilities at a drag strip, however in the looks deparment i cant stand the front or rear end. The 2012 camaro is the better looking car to me, its to bad it dosnt tip the scales like the mustang does.

I look at it this way. Ford is using 4 times as many cams and can't even make the same power. Whats up with that!?And twice as many valves too! ;)




blame GM for not going the same route.Or, blame Ford for not basing the DOHC 32V Coyote motor on their own 6.2L and one upping the LS3 in absolute power as well...this 'back and forth' stuff could go on all day LOL. :lol: ;)


Just kidding of course, I am impressed by both motors. :burn:

How much does the LS3 weigh?



I think the Coyote weighs around 420/430.

How much does the LS3 weigh?



I think the Coyote weighs around 420/430.

coyote=444lbs.
i'm hearing rumors of the ls3 being 450 to 500, but i'm not sure on that.

coyote=444lbs.
i'm hearing rumors of the ls3 being 450 to 500, but i'm not sure on that.

GMPP catalog lists the LS3 at 415 Lbs.

GMPP catalog lists the LS3 at 415 Lbs.

i went in there looking, but couldn't find it...........

blame GM for not going the same route. what i am trying to say is the LS3 is NOT superior to to a coyote motor, might be on par, but NOT superior...your last point about LS1s reminds me of that scene from Coming to America... "Der they go, Der they go!! Everytime we start talkin about boxing someone has to bring Rocky Marciano out der ass...Rocky Marciano was good, but compared to GEORGE LEWIS, HE AINT SHIT!"...:D

I would like to thank GM for not going the same route. I prefer the design and simplicity of the lsx motors. The ease of making big power while NA. The list goes on and on for me. I have no complaints.

Who is George Lewis? You mean Joe Louis?

I would like to thank GM for not going the same route. I prefer the design and simplicity of the lsx motors. The ease of making big power while NA. The list goes on and on for me. I have no complaints.

Who is George Lewis? You mean Joe Louis?

Until i drove a coyote mustang, i felt the same. i felt that ford should've gone back to the OHV setup, keeping it simple, and powerful.
driving one of these cammers though......i mean c'mon. although ive not raced mine yet(only 900 and change on the clock), there's an automatic equipped one right down the street that went 12.53 right off of the car hauler. tune and drag radials, took it into the 11.5's. that's still with no bolt ons....unless drag radials are considered bolt ons.
these engines can be cranked up to stupidly high power levels for only 302's. as they come from the factory, they pull right off idle right up to redline.

i know the ls engines can do it too......it's two different ways of getting there......but ya can't say that the coyote's a crap engine. it's far from it.

Until i drove a coyote mustang, i felt the same. i felt that ford should've gone back to the OHV setup, keeping it simple, and powerful.
driving one of these cammers though......i mean c'mon. although ive not raced mine yet(only 900 and change on the clock), there's an automatic equipped one right down the street that went 12.53 right off of the car hauler. tune and drag radials, took it into the 11.5's. that's still with no bolt ons....unless drag radials are considered bolt ons.
these engines can be cranked up to stupidly high power levels for only 302's. as they come from the factory, they pull right off idle right up to redline.

i know the ls engines can do it too......it's two different ways of getting there......but ya can't say that the coyote's a crap engine. it's far from it.

I agree. Both are great. I have said it twice now. I have never once said the motor was crap. They just chose two different ways of getting their. Which I also said before.

I have never heard of an 11.5 with just a tune and a tire. That would be the new world record and far from the norm. The best times I have been able to gather from a tune and tire is high 11's. Just seen one a guy was bragging about at 11.9 and this was at -1500 DA with tune and tire.

The 5.0 does benefit from just a tune more than an ls3 will though. It benfits greatly from a rev limiter raise in stock form as to where the ls3 will not.

I agree. Both are great. I have said it twice now. I have never once said the motor was crap. They just chose two different ways of getting their. Which I also said before.

I have never heard of an 11.5 with just a tune and a tire. That would be the new world record and far from the norm. The best times I have been able to gather from a tune and tire is high 11's. Just seen one a guy was bragging about at 11.9 and this was at -1500 DA with tune and tire.

The 5.0 does benefit from just a tune more than an ls3 will though. It benfits greatly from a rev limiter raise in stock form as to where the ls3 will not.

i didn't mean that you said they were crap. i just quoted your post is all. there's as many closed minded guys in here as there are in the ford forums that some like to pick on.
i'll talk to the service manager down there, see if i can get a copy of his timeslip.

me? i won't be tuning mine till warranty's gone.....and to be honest, if i drag race it, it will be on street tires till about the same time. i will however take it to run on road courses, and perhaps autocross a bit........

i didn't mean that you said they were crap. i just quoted your post is all. there's as many closed minded guys in here as there are in the ford forums that some like to pick on.
i'll talk to the service manager down there, see if i can get a copy of his timeslip.

me? i won't be tuning mine till warranty's gone.....and to be honest, if i drag race it, it will be on street tires till about the same time. i will however take it to run on road courses, and perhaps autocross a bit........

Thats going to be a long 5 year wait. I doubt you can hold out that long. I tuned mine the second year. And now in its 3rd year I am installing heads and cam. I have had such good luck with lsx motors in the past I have little worry of a major problem. I guess we will see.

Ill be going to the strip as well...but I'll be running 20 inch 555'rs and a stock clutch. I am hoping to break into the 11's. I cant expect much more on the wheel and tire combo....and the stock clutch will burn up for sure if I am too hard on it.

no i am not kidding. you are right the LS3 is hella more powerful 426hp>412hp all day long:eyes: wake up dude. LS3 is 1.2L bigger and can only outpower the coyote by 14hp=weak sauce. just in case you dont remember, the coyote was hitting 10s a month after its release, and 9s a couple of months later, and 8s before the end of the first model year. i like GM just like any other person here, but i am not blind to the facts.

Except the body the coyote is in has been around since 2005 vs the camaros 2010. So you have to give some credit to the actual car.

Both motors are great, but ford has the acutal drag advantage based off the car platform alone. 200lbs lighter with a live axle and non-drug dealer wheels equals a better 1/4 car 99 times out of 100. Unless you think a motor producing less hp and less tq can magically beat a stronger motor in the same car.

Fantastic motor and car, but the majority of posts on this site about the 5th gen would lead you to believe that a stock ls1 fbody can out run one. I bet there are more stock 5th gens in the 12's than stock ls1 fbody's.
I agree that a stock 5th gen with a 6spd is faster than a stock fbody I mean thats not really any new news. But a stock m6 ls1 car will trap 107-108 in good da and a 5th gen m6 will trap around 110 from what I've seen. A 2mph trap difference isnt HUGE and can easily be made up for with a catback and lid, so I think thats where people come in and say stock for stock its close with an edge to the 5th gen but with a couple simple mods the 4th gen gets it back, and I completely agree with that.However the 5th gens stock with autos are SLOW no matter how you spin it lol. :ripped:
the 5.0 is a tough motor but some people act like the ls3 is a boat anchor I just dont get it. I like the platform of the lsx because how easy it is to work on ie. cam swaps and massive stroker kits. However for just a bolt on car maybe 5.0s have it. I think if it werent for the weight and irs it wouldnt be the case.
This I'm tired of hearing how great the coyote is and no love for the ls3. It makes the same if not more hp not to mention torque and it doesnt really get recognized. No one takes into account that a loaded 5th gen with a driver is around 4k while a stang is around 3700. No excuses there intended just the facts.
blame GM for not going the same route. what i am trying to say is the LS3 is NOT superior to to a coyote motor, might be on par, but NOT superior...your last point about LS1s reminds me of that scene from Coming to America... "Der they go, Der they go!! Everytime we start talkin about boxing someone has to bring Rocky Marciano out der ass...Rocky Marciano was good, but compared to GEORGE LEWIS, HE AINT SHIT!"...:D
Why would I blame gm for not going the same route? for the last 15 years no modular ford N/A could compete with an ls for power and cost. Now they finally have something that can and my hat is off to the the 5.0 is a great motor but at the end of the day, an ls will fit into anything, and I can teach a monkey to swap the cam and heads on one. DAMN GM for making that shit easy.
People kill me that say ford didnt take the bailout an you know why? lol Its cause they sold a lot of stocks or whatever a few years back an saved their ass then.
Lol not only did they sell stock and companies like Jag, Aston martin and land rover but they did take a government bailout. However it was processed by the federal borrowing window which, what do ya know doesnt get published in the media. The only way to see that 9 billion dollar check is to read the ford government contract and see the payment....

Except the body the coyote is in has been around since 2005 vs the camaros 2010. So you have to give some credit to the actual car.

Both motors are great, but ford has the acutal drag advantage based off the car platform alone. 200lbs lighter with a live axle and non-drug dealer wheels equals a better 1/4 car 99 times out of 100. Unless you think a motor producing less hp and less tq can magically beat a stronger motor in the same car.
This I think the mustang is a better drag platform not because of the motor or looks but he fact it still uses a live axle, keeps the weight down, and maintains a good suspension. However chevy didnt go for that they went for a comfortable daily driver which is what MOST people want in a car. At the end of the day I like both cars.. If I was buying one today no doubt I would go with a 5.0. Not because I hate the ls3 and the camaro but because I could really give a crap about having a plush dd like the camaro. I would rather have the 5.0 for its live axle and lighter chassis.

I agree that a stock 5th gen with a 6spd is faster than a stock fbody I mean thats not really any new news. But a stock m6 ls1 car will trap 107-108 in good da and a 5th gen m6 will trap around 110 from what I've seen. A 2mph trap difference isnt HUGE and can easily be made up for with a catback and lid, so I think thats where people come in and say stock for stock its close with an edge to the 5th gen but with a couple simple mods the 4th gen gets it back, and I completely agree with that.However the 5th gens stock with autos are SLOW no matter how you spin it lol. :ripped:

This I'm tired of hearing how great the coyote is and no love for the ls3. It makes the same if not more hp not to mention torque and it doesnt really get recognized. No one takes into account that a loaded 5th gen with a driver is around 4k while a stang is around 3700. No excuses there intended just the facts.

Why would I blame gm for not going the same route? for the last 15 years no modular ford N/A could compete with an ls for power and cost. Now they finally have something that can and my hat is off to the the 5.0 is a great motor but at the end of the day, an ls will fit into anything, and I can teach a monkey to swap the cam and heads on one. DAMN GM for making that shit easy.

Lol not only did they sell stock and companies like Jag, Aston martin and land rover but they did take a government bailout. However it was processed by the federal borrowing window which, what do ya know doesnt get published in the media. The only way to see that 9 billion dollar check is to read the ford government contract and see the payment....


This I think the mustang is a better drag platform not because of the motor or looks but he fact it still uses a live axle, keeps the weight down, and maintains a good suspension. However chevy didnt go for that they went for a comfortable daily driver which is what MOST people want in a car. At the end of the day I like both cars.. If I was buying one today no doubt I would go with a 5.0. Not because I hate the ls3 and the camaro but because I could really give a crap about having a plush dd like the camaro. I would rather have the 5.0 for its live axle and lighter chassis.

If your talking best case scenario and good DA (like you said) the 5th gen LS3 has hit 113mph stock traps that I know of. 110 is pretty much average and has been done in almost all mag reviews. 111-112 is fairly common for private owners also.

I wouldnt say the auto is a dog. A lot of them are hindered by being stuck in low octane mode and the stock tune and trans tune is weak. 12.8 is the best stock run in an L99. A tune only L99 will be equal to a stock ls3 for the most part. Compared to its 5.0 counterpart it is well behind though. They should have just stayed with the LS3 in the auto as well.

I would like to thank GM for not going the same route. I prefer the design and simplicity of the lsx motors. The ease of making big power while NA. The list goes on and on for me. I have no complaints.

Who is George Lewis? You mean Joe Louis?
Lol...my bad..it is Joe Louis..

Lol...my bad..it is Joe Louis..

No problem man...I figured. Still got the point.

If your talking best case scenario and good DA (like you said) the 5th gen LS3 has hit 113mph stock traps that I know of. 110 is pretty much average and has been done in almost all mag reviews. 111-112 is fairly common for private owners also.

I wouldnt say the auto is a dog. A lot of them are hindered by being stuck in low octane mode and the stock tune and trans tune is weak. 12.8 is the best stock run in an L99. A tune only L99 will be equal to a stock ls3 for the most part. Compared to its 5.0 counterpart it is well behind though. They should have just stayed with the LS3 in the auto as well.

I was just saying good da like maybe around sea level ish. which by me in south florida results in ls1 traps around 107-108 and the ls3 camaro traps around 110. If you really want to talk the best scenario then the ls1 has trapped 110.6 in the best da leaving it once again behind about 2mph from the best ls3. With a good street driver the ls3 will be about 2mph faster than the ls1 when its all said and done, again like i said this is where the notion comes from that the cars aren't a bad race because that speed is close enough for driver error or a lid and cutback to make the difference.

When i said the l99 is a dog I meant in stock form. I don't really count a tune as stock, once you tune the car and put a decent set of tires on it it will run well but straight from gm its a little sad

no i am not kidding. you are right the LS3 is hella more powerful 426hp>412hp all day long:eyes: wake up dude. LS3 is 1.2L bigger and can only outpower the coyote by 14hp=weak sauce.

This shit again, seriously?
Repeat it with me : displacement is irrelevant, hp/l is ricer math.
Neither engines are anywhere near their peak, both are being held back purposely, GM CHOSE to go with their LSx design and 6.2L, they didn't "need" the displacement for that output, they CHOSE TO USE IT for the flat torque curve and power delivery (and there are NO downsides to it, so why not go with larger displacement from the same block?)

Which would you rather have, a lighter, smaller engine with more power, or a bigger, heavier engine with less power?
NO ONE is saying the Coyote engine is "bad", but to say stock for stock its better than the LS3 as a performance engine is simply wrong.


just in case you dont remember, the coyote was hitting 10s a month after its release, and 9s a couple of months later, and 8s before the end of the first model year.
Just in case you don't remember we are talking about stock engines, not modded cars.

i like GM just like any other person here, but i am not blind to the facts.
Apparently you are...
FACT: LS3 is lighter, smaller and more powerful.


How much does the LS3 weigh?

I think the Coyote weighs around 420/430.
Coyote is claimed to be around 440lbs (which is the same as the "big ole" 7L LS7), the LS3 is around 400-415lbs.

I'm glad it's been mentioned. A car couldn't give two shits if it's engine was 1.2 liters or 12 liters, all it cares about is where the power is being made and how much weight it's hauling, the rest is irrelevant to performance.

That being said, the 5.0 is an awesome motor, I'm extremely impressed with my friends new F150.....but I'd still rather take the LS3.

LS3 is 1.2L bigger and can only outpower the coyote by 14hp=weak sauce.

Your opinion is worthless from here on out.

Your opinion is worthless from here on out.

Sure thing your highness..i understand the truth is a hard pill to swallow.

driving one of these cammers though......i mean c'mon. although ive not raced mine yet(only 900 and change on the clock), there's an automatic equipped one right down the street that went 12.53 right off of the car hauler. tune and drag radials, took it into the 11.5's. that's still with no bolt ons....unless drag radials are considered bolt ons.Yes, drag radials (and tuning as well for that matter) are considered bolt on modifications, at least they have been in the LSx world for roughly 15 years now.
Bone stock means just that, bone stock (off the showroom floor). :nod:

And I know the new 5.0s are impressive as hell...but are you sure that they've hit 11.5s with just tuning and drag radials as the ONLY mods?:huh:
I'd heard of 11.9s and there was even rumor of one going 11.7s with just those mods but 11.5s?
Maybe with skinnies and seats removed as well perhaps?


* Edit *
I didn't see the below post before typing mine, I was saying basically the same thing as you are here. :nod:
I have never heard of an 11.5 with just a tune and a tire. That would be the new world record and far from the norm. The best times I have been able to gather from a tune and tire is high 11's. Just seen one a guy was bragging about at 11.9 and this was at -1500 DA with tune and tire.

no i am not kidding. you are right the LS3 is hella more powerful 426hp>412hp all day long:eyes: wake up dude. LS3 is 1.2L bigger and can only outpower the coyote by 14hp=weak sauce.And once again as noted earlier, the Coyote has ALL of those extra cams and ALL of those extra valves and still the closest it can come to a simple single cam motor with half the amount of valves is 14hp (less by the way)?:huh: ;)
See how it works, this can go on an on all day LOL. :D
They both have 'power making' advantages over the other, it's NOT just about cubic inches. ;)

Sure thing your highness..i understand the truth is a hard pill to swallow.

An FC20 makes 120hp/liter! the Coyote only makes 82-89hp/liter so the FC20 HAS to be a superior engine. Lets all do 14s!

And once again as noted earlier, the Coyote has ALL of those extra cams and ALL of those extra valves and still the closest it can come to a simple single cam motor with half the amount of valves is 14hp (less by the way)?:huh: ;)
See how it works, this can go on an on all day LOL. :D
They both have 'power making' advantages over the other, it's NOT just about cubic inches. ;)

Exactly. As was stated earlier, 2 different ways to make power. But you're probably talking to a rock.

Yes, drag radials (and tuning as well for that matter) are considered bolt on modifications, at least they have been in the LSx world for roughly 15 years now.
Bone stock means just that, bone stock (off the showroom floor). :nod:

And I know the new 5.0s are impressive as hell...but are you sure that they've hit 11.5s with just tuning and drag radials as the ONLY mods?:huh:
I'd heard of 11.9s and there was even rumor of one going 11.7s with just those mods but 11.5s?
Maybe with skinnies and seats removed as well perhaps?


* Edit *
I didn't see the below post before typing mine, I was saying basically the same thing as you are here. :nod:

i had replied to the other post.....i've gotta get the time to call that shop, and verify that i heard right.
the 12/53 right off of the carrier, i can believe. i'm not sure about the rest. i don't have anything to compare it to, as i never ran my mustang without them....the one below that is.....i never tried, due to the fact that any launch over 3k rpm simply turned the tires into vapor and balled up rubber bits. i didn't tune that car so much as i changed the ecu with the maf and injectors.

i'll see if i can get a hold of the guy.

And once again as noted earlier, the Coyote has ALL of those extra cams and ALL of those extra valves and still the closest it can come to a simple single cam motor with half the amount of valves is 14hp (less by the way)?:huh: ;)
See how it works, this can go on an on all day LOL. :D
They both have 'power making' advantages over the other, it's NOT just about cubic inches. ;)

14hp=6hp. next years coyote is 420hp.

i had replied to the other post.....i've gotta get the time to call that shop, and verify that i heard right.
the 12/53 right off of the carrier, i can believe. i'm not sure about the rest.Ok cool. I too can easily believe the 12.53 as others have gone even quicker than that in bone stock 5.0s already. And even the 11.9 (with dyno tuning and drag radials) has been verified I think.
The cars are impressive. :burn:




14hp=6hp. next years coyote is 420hp.True. :nod:

http://images.clipartof.com/small/1045740-Cartoon-Boring-Parrot-Talking-Poster-Art-Print.jpg

http://luckydiaz4u.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/boring-class.jpg

Sure thing your highness..i understand the truth is a hard pill to swallow.

LMFAO...if that's the case, I don't think you have been taking your medication.

An FC20 makes 120hp/liter! the Coyote only makes 82-89hp/liter so the FC20 HAS to be a superior engine. Lets all do 14s!

The F22C makes 240hp and is a 2.2L...the Coyote motor has over twice the displacement but doesn't even make twice the power...Whats up with that!? Shouldn't the 5.0 be making 545hp then? (109hp/liter?)

1QWIKZ is going to shit when he sees that the coyote motor is garbage by his own standards...but no worries! We found a great new motor for him to swap in!

LMFAO...if that's the case, I don't think you have been taking your medication.



The F22C makes 240hp and is a 2.2L...the Coyote motor has over twice the displacement but doesn't even make twice the power...Whats up with that!? Shouldn't the 5.0 be making 545hp then? (109hp/liter?)

1QWIKZ is going to shit when he sees that the coyote motor is garbage by his own standards...but no worries! We found a great new motor for him to swap in!

Haha, I can't wait to see his next mod. He's gonna flip the 5 on 5.0 upside down and glue it back on.

The first gen S2000 used the F20C which is 2.0L and still made the same 240hp. So it's obviously better in ricer math. Stupid Honda, switching to a worse engine with the F22C.

Wow, i see this has turned into a " dog pile on the rabbit" kinda thing. I am not on this site to be a cancer and i do understand all the loyalty to GM. But i was simply making a point that the coyote motor is not inferior to the LS3. I dont own a 5.0, but i do respect what they have accomplished in a very short span...that being said, carry on.

Wow, i see this has turned into a " dog pile on the rabbit" kinda thing.

More like point and laugh at the butthurt mustang fanboy...


I am not on this site to be a cancer and i do understand all the loyalty to GM. But i was simply making a point that the coyote motor is not inferior to the LS3.

No "loyalty" in this discussion, just plain and simple facts.
Stock for stock the LS3 is a better performance engine, its lighter, smaller and more powerful. Whether its a 1L engine or a 10L engine is completely and totally irreverent, because it still smaller and lighter - things that actually matter in the real world.

More like point and laugh at the butthurt mustang fanboy...


No "loyalty" in this discussion, just plain and simple facts.
Stock for stock the LS3 is a better performance engine, its lighter, smaller and more powerful. Whether its a 1L engine or a 10L engine is completely and totally irreverent, because it still smaller and lighter - things that actually matter in the real world.

does a stock ls3 camaro beat a stock coyote mustang?





didn't think so. :engarde:

Wow, i see this has turned into a " dog pile on the rabbit" kinda thing. I am not on this site to be a cancer and i do understand all the loyalty to GM. But i was simply making a point that the coyote motor is not inferior to the LS3. I dont own a 5.0, but i do respect what they have accomplished in a very short span...that being said, carry on.

You hinted towards the fact that the LS3 was inferior or "less impressive" in some way because it had more displacement and not a ton more power in comparison to the 5.0

If you simply would have said something like "The LS3 and the 5.0 Coyote are comparable motors" nobody (who knows what they're talking about anyway) would have said much about it or disagreed.

When you barge in and imply the LS3 isn't as impressive as the 5.0 because of displacement, you'll lose that argument before you begin because

a). You're wrong
b). There are obviously many GM fans here, and they'll tell you you're wrong and why you're wrong...NOT just because they're "loyalists"


does a stock ls3 camaro beat a stock coyote mustang?
didn't think so. :engarde:

Most times no, but it's not because of the motor itself, which is what we've been discussing most recently (5.0 vs. LS3, not a "Mustang with" a 5.0 v a "Camaro with" an LS3)

Does a Coyote 5.0 beat an LS3 Corvette?

Didn't think so...:engarde:

See what I did there? :lol:

does a stock ls3 camaro beat a stock coyote mustang?





didn't think so. :engarde:

I do believe we are discussing the engine itself here, not the car.

LS3 Corvette is faster than the 5.0 Mustang is faster than the LS3 Camaro.


:edit: beat me to it!

I do believe we are discussing the engine itself here, not the car.

LS3 Corvette is faster than the 5.0 Mustang is faster than the LS3 Camaro.

now i'll throw your own argument right back at ya....if the mustang was lighter like the vette, that may be different. :engarde:
your turn.

now i'll throw your own argument right back at ya....if the mustang was lighter like the vette, that may be different. :engarde:
your turn.

Ok fine. Lets break it down to simple math.

Same exact car down to everything, weights, transmission, gearing, etc.

Put an LS3 in it, which is lighter and more powerful, and it will be faster than if you put the heavier and less powerful 5.0 in it. That is, if it physically fit.

So you'd have two identical cars down to the nuts and bolts. Each chassis without the engine weighs 3000lbs. The LS3 car will be a few lbs lighter after the engines are installed, AND had a little more power. More power + less weight = faster.

Your turn.

See what I did there? :lol:Yes,

http://forum.ntreev.net/grandchase/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/10/6574.i_2D00_see_2D00_what_2D00_you_2D00_did_2D00_t here.jpg

:D

^Lmao...I was hoping someone would respond with one of those.

More like point and laugh at the butthurt mustang fanboy...


No "loyalty" in this discussion, just plain and simple facts.
Stock for stock the LS3 is a better performance engine, its lighter, smaller and more powerful. Whether its a 1L engine or a 10L engine is completely and totally irreverent, because it still smaller and lighter - things that actually matter in the real world.

Like i posted before, i dont own a mustang and am not a "fanboy". Your arguement about the LS3 being lighter(by 25 lbs but what good does that do when its in a boat anchor), smaller(????still dont get that one since the coyote's displacement is 1.2L smaller), more powerful( by 14hp and 20+tq...but again doesnt help when its in a tank) doesnt hold water. I would have entertained your arguement if you had better examples such as the LS3 having better internals, better flowing heads, more efficient, etc.. That to me qualifies as a better engine .

Ok fine. Lets break it down to simple math.

Same exact car down to everything, weights, transmission, gearing, etc.

Put an LS3 in it, which is lighter and more powerful, and it will be faster than if you put the heavier and less powerful 5.0 in it. That is, if it physically fit.

So you'd have two identical cars down to the nuts and bolts. Each chassis without the engine weighs 3000lbs. The LS3 car will be a few lbs lighter after the engines are installed, AND had a little more power. More power + less weight = faster.

Your turn.

the torque/power band is about equal on these engines. in the same car.......drivers race. six hp doesn't make that much difference. or if you go by some dyno tests, the 5 liter is a tick over 430hp, making it smaller, heavier, and more powerful.

your turn.

:engarde:

Like i posted before, i dont own a mustang and am not a "fanboy". Your arguement about the LS3 being lighter(by 25 lbs but what good does that do when its in a boat anchor), smaller(????still dont get that one since the coyote's displacement is 1.2L smaller), more powerful( by 14hp and 20+tq...but again doesnt help when its in a tank) doesnt hold water. I would have entertained your arguement if you had better examples such as the LS3 having better internals, better flowing heads, more efficient, etc.. That to me qualifies as a better engine .

he means it's physically smaller. OHC engines are necessarily taller and wider than their OHV counterparts.

kinda dumb to compare a c6 to a mustang,thats just mo, if you keep it against the pony cars the mustang is the best buy period, i went out and test drove a 5th gen not to long ago and i feel its a much better car than a 4th gen but performance wasnt all there for the price tag, the mustang ran great, int was better and overall the car just felt alot stronger, factor in all that with the price for sure its the best buy, i still love the 5th gens and would like to own one but not for new retail price, ill wait for the budget lot lol

he means it's physically smaller. OHC engines are necessarily taller and wider than their OHV counterparts.
Ok..got it. I aslo forgot to mention that the Boss comes with 444hp, so i guess the LS3 being more powerful statement is not necessarily true...just saying.

Like i posted before, i dont own a mustang and am not a "fanboy". Your arguement about the LS3 being lighter(by 25 lbs but what good does that do when its in a boat anchor), smaller(????still dont get that one since the coyote's displacement is 1.2L smaller), more powerful( by 14hp and 20+tq...but again doesnt help when its in a tank) doesnt hold water. I would have entertained your arguement if you had better examples such as the LS3 having better internals, better flowing heads, more efficient, etc.. That to me qualifies as a better engine .

How do you not understand that the engine can be physically smaller on the outside, but still displace more on the inside? Displacement isn't size, it's the product of a damn math equation. I'll sum it up with a post made in another thread of OHC leg humping.

You may need to do more research then, what about when in a V-engine (like the V8 we are talking about) the added size, weight, cost and complexity vs a pushrod engine?
Ford 5L pushrod and 4.6l mod motor...
http://i32.tinypic.com/bgprgp.jpg
LS2 and VQ35 V6
http://harrismarine.co.nz/bbpress/?bb_attachments=750&bbat=551&inline
Fords 5.4L OHC vs 5.0L OHV
http://www.codyace.com/albums/album122/50vs54.sized.jpg


This kind of thing has been discussed on here countless times. I think Ill take the lighter, smaller, less complex, more powerful LS pushrod over an OHC V8...
I don't see any good reason GM would go with a DOHC V8, back in the late 90s they even admitted the Northstar V8 was made for marketing for the fanboys that want a "high tech" engine.


the torque/power band is about equal on these engines. in the same car.......drivers race. six hp doesn't make that much difference. or if you go by some dyno tests, the 5 liter is a tick over 430hp, making it smaller, heavier, and more powerful.

your turn.

:engarde:

"some dyno tests" don't really mean crap in this instance. every dyno is different. ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL as already stated, a little less weight, a little more power will be a little bit faster. I'm talking 10ths or 100ths in the 1/4, but still.

Regardless, it's a damn personal preference. And I prefer the smaller, simpler package.

If you go back and look JD_AMG's original statement, he never said PHYSICALLY SMALLER...he only stated the LS3 was smaller, so i thought he meant displacement wise.

Ok..got it. I aslo forgot to mention that the Boss comes with 444hp, so i guess the LS3 being more powerful statement is not necessarily true...just saying.

The boss 302 (different from the standard coyote 5.0 we were talking about) also has different egnine internals. Sure, it's still the same "coyote" engine family, but the motor is itself different.

Well the 6.2 LS motor in the ZR1 motor makes 639hp...amazing what happens when you add different pieces to a motor, isn't it? :D


By the way, I feel like I'm trying to educate a stubborn know it all high school kid here...lol, just saying...

Ok..got it. I aslo forgot to mention that the Boss comes with 444hp, so i guess the LS3 being more powerful statement is not necessarily true...just saying.

technically speaking, the boss302 engine is a different engine than the gt's engine. that's why i didn't go there.

Man I keep waiting to mustang to sell more because of 5.0 but Camaro has a lot of love

How do you not understand that the engine can be physically smaller on the outside, but still displace more on the inside? Displacement isn't size, it's the product of a damn math equation. I'll sum it up with a post made in another thread of OHC leg humping.






"some dyno tests" don't really mean crap in this instance. every dyno is different. ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL as already stated, a little less weight, a little more power will be a little bit faster. I'm talking 10ths or 100ths in the 1/4, but still.

Regardless, it's a damn personal preference. And I prefer the smaller, simpler package.

if i were thinking of doing a swap.....i'd go down in my basement, and grab an old 302 block, heads, crank, and start there. slam it all together, and put it in something cool. i'm not though. i'm driving my gt. like i said....i used to argue totally against cammers till i drove one of these.

what really amazes me, is that ford never built the 4.6's that you found in the common gt's to make any real power. these engines have much much more potential than anyone thinks, and it could easily have been done.

Man I keep waiting to mustang to sell more because of 5.0 but Camaro has a lot of love

ths camaro's only 2 years old. the "new" hasn't worn off yet.

I always enjoyed the fact at one manufacturer went OHC and one stayed pushrod *shrug*

Enthusiasts(not those blinded by brand loyalty) are able to choose between the two and have good results with either. There are huge aftermarkets with both and both are very capable. I never understand this intense need to choose one over the other. I like both for different reasons and for different applications.

The boss 302 (different from the standard coyote 5.0 we were talking about) also has different egnine internals. Sure, it's still the same "coyote" engine family, but the motor is itself different.

Well the 6.2 LS motor in the ZR1 motor makes 639hp...amazing what happens when you add different pieces to a motor, isn't it? :D


By the way, I feel like I'm trying to educate a stubborn know it all high school kid here...lol, just saying...

I know the Boss has forged internals,CNC'd heads, intake...i just threw that in there for the sake of arguement, and i see your point about the ZR1. Like i posted before, i think that the coyote motor is being dismissed without any consideration of its ablilities just because its a Ford engine.

BTW, I dont think the federal govt hires high school kids..and my education level is well past that...please dont try to insult me in that sense...

I know the Boss has forged internals,CNC'd heads, intake...i just threw that in there for the sake of arguement, and i see your point about the ZR1. Like i posted before, i think that the coyote motor is being dismissed without any consideration of its ablilities just because its a Ford engine.

BTW, I dont think the federal govt hires high school kids..and my education level is well past that...please dont try to insult me in that sense...

the boss engine has different cams too.

the coyote engine is only being dismissed by two types on here.

1)blind brand loyalists. i'm sure the same crap happens on ford boards.

EDIT.....
make that three types


2) people that like to argue here. :D

EDIT.....
make that three types
3) those that refuse to give up the past.

An FC20 makes 120hp/liter! the Coyote only makes 82-89hp/liter so the FC20 HAS to be a superior engine. Lets all do 14s!
F20C ;)
More like point and laugh at the butthurt mustang fanboy...


No "loyalty" in this discussion, just plain and simple facts.
Stock for stock the LS3 is a better performance engine, its lighter, smaller and more powerful. Whether its a 1L engine or a 10L engine is completely and totally irreverent, because it still smaller and lighter - things that actually matter in the real world.

Seriously, he's a "Mustang fanboy?" You use that word WAY too much.

I know the Boss has forged internals,CNC'd heads, intake...i just threw that in there for the sake of arguement, and i see your point about the ZR1. Like i posted before, i think that the coyote motor is being dismissed without any consideration of its ablilities just because its a Ford engine.

BTW, I dont think the federal govt hires high school kids..and my education level is well past that...please dont try to insult me in that sense...

Not once have I dismissed the coyote motor in any sense. It's slightly heavier, and makes slightly less power-those are facts. I never said I thought the motor was junk because of those facts. You were the one that seemed upset about the facts, not me.

I didn't say that you only have a high school education, or that you were still in high school. I said that your arguments seemed like a high school kids because it really seems like an argument I would have had with someone in high school.

BTW, I dont think the federal govt hires high school kids..and my education level is well past that...please dont try to insult me in that sense...

LOL federal government and education in the same sentence.

So what's faster?

BTW, I dont think the federal govt hires high school kids..and my education level is well past that...please dont try to insult me in that sense...

Not trying to hijack a thread I haven't contributed to until now, but I would be careful about opening up the "government" can of worms in this crowd. You may not get the desired response.

Back on topic, the new Camaro was built to appeal to the masses first. And you could argue that the new 5.0 was built to appeal to the performance enthusiast first.

Problem with that (if you wish to call it a problem at all): the masses buy many more vehicles than the performance enthusiasts.

As stated already, glad that there are 3 different brands, with various trims and budgets in mind, for either the masses or the performance enthusiast to choose from. It's a great time to be into pony or muscle cars - there is showroom power and handling available like never before.

As for LS3 vs 5.0, well whoever thought that someone here might have said the LS3 is smaller in displacement is fooling themselves. Most members here, save for a few newbies perhaps, know that the LS family of engines is much smaller in overall physical size than the Ford OHC. IMO, I wouldn't jump on either bandwagon, both are proving to be great platforms to build with - each to their own.

5.0=ls3

Boss302>ls3

5.8SC>LSA

5.8SC>LS7

5.8SC=LS9

But look what happens when we put them in cars lol

GT>SS

Vette>GT

Boss>base vette

Boss=GS

CVS-V> Boss

ZL1>Boss

GT500>CTS-V

GT500(???)ZL1

GT500(???)Z06

ZR1>GT500

I know the Boss has forged internals,CNC'd heads, intake...i just threw that in there for the sake of arguement, and i see your point about the ZR1. Like i posted before, i think that the coyote motor is being dismissed without any consideration of its ablilities just because its a Ford engine.

BTW, I dont think the federal govt hires high school kids..and my education level is well past that...please dont try to insult me in that sense...

You can try to turn that into your argument, and in some cases on this board you may be right, but almost everybody in this thread has pointed out that the 5.0 and the LS3 are both great engines. You seem to be on the warpath to say that an engine that weighs more, takes up more physical space, and puts out less power is superior simply because it has 3 more cams and is in a lighter car.

does a stock ls3 camaro beat a stock coyote mustang?

didn't think so. :engarde:

This is exactly what I was talking about in the other thread with you, you are a mustang nutswinger and can't stand it not being on top.

Like i posted before, i dont own a mustang and am not a "fanboy".

If you weren't a fanboy then you wouldn't be on an GM site arguing hp/l for a Mustang.

Your arguement about the LS3 being lighter(by 25 lbs but what good does that do when its in a boat anchor)

Lighter is lighter, for the last time we are not talking about the cars, just the engines. And even if we were talking about cars the LS3 was made for the Corvette - so there goes your boat anchor argument.


, smaller(????still dont get that one since the coyote's displacement is 1.2L smaller)

As already stated displacement is not engine size, its engine displacement. Engine size is its physical size. The LS3 is smaller than the Coyote.


more powerful( by 14hp and 20+tq...but again doesnt help when its in a tank) doesnt hold water.

Same story here, not talking about cars, but if we were take a look at the vette.


I would have entertained your arguement if you had better examples such as the LS3 having better internals, better flowing heads,
412hp is 412hp is 412hp, it doesn't matter if the Coyote has the best flowing heads, or best internals in the world, its still a 440+lbs engine thats the size of a small barn, and makes 412hp, where as the LS3 is lighter, smaller, and more powerful, making it a better performance engine stock for stock, its simple physics.


more efficient, etc.. That to me qualifies as a better engine .
Lets talking about "efficiency" shall we?
Say you are a building a car and have the choice between two engines, for simplicity sake they make the same power at the same RPM:
Engine A: 400hp, 400lbs, 5L, physically smaller (in case you haven't figured it out, a physically smaller engine can be mounted closer to the center of the car and closer to the ground for better all around performance)
Engine B: 400hp, 500lbs, 4L, physically bigger.
Which engine would you put in your performance car? Which is truly more "efficient"?
Let me ask you, what advantage would GM have by decreasing the displacement of their LS3, seriously?
Now how about this, what advantage would they have from increasing the displacement? - you end up making more power, having a flatter torque curve, all with out adding weight or size to the engine - no downsides. You may end up making less hp/l, but thats totally meaningless because you will have more power to weight.

Seriously, he's a "Mustang fanboy?" You use that word WAY too much.
I apologize, I will call him a Mustang nutswinger from now on. :swing: ;)

So what's faster?The front engined V8 RWD one LOL. :lol: ;)

Lol @ the Mustang nut huggers there. Granted we have our own but those first couple of posts made me lol.

5.0=ls3

Boss302>ls3

5.8SC>LSA

5.8SC>LS7

5.8SC=LS9

But look what happens when we put them in cars lol

GT>SS

Vette>GT

Boss>base vette

Boss=GSOh I don't about those last two.:huh:
Are you talking road course or straight line?

Bone stock base Corvette LS3s have run 11.8/11.9 second 1/4 mile times at well over 118+mph with the record being 11.71 at almost 120mph.

The Boss 302 is certainly fast and sometime this year I do believe that a bone stock Boss 302 will hit the 11s (if it hasn't already) but until then:

Boss < base Vette

Boss < GS

;)

He was probably talking about road courses.

Haters gonna hate. The ls3 is a superior motor when compared to the 5.0. Nuff said.

Thank you for starting this entire argument :lol:. The LS3 is a damn good engine, and so is the Coyote. However, the advantages that the LS3 holds (lighter weight, smaller dimensions) are nullified by the package it was put in. So it is kinda pointless to talk about which engine is better, because the Camaro's weight keeps the Mustang out in front.

This is exactly what I was talking about in the other thread with you, you are a mustang nutswinger and can't stand it not being on top.


If you weren't a fanboy then you wouldn't be on an GM site arguing hp/l for a Mustang.

Lighter is lighter, for the last time we are not talking about the cars, just the engines. And even if we were talking about cars the LS3 was made for the Corvette - so there goes your boat anchor argument.


As already stated displacement is not engine size, its engine displacement. Engine size is its physical size. The LS3 is smaller than the Coyote.


Same story here, not talking about cars, but if we were take a look at the vette.


412hp is 412hp is 412hp, it doesn't matter if the Coyote has the best flowing heads, or best internals in the world, its still a 440+lbs engine thats the size of a small barn, and makes 412hp, where as the LS3 is lighter, smaller, and more powerful, making it a better performance engine stock for stock, its simple physics.


Lets talking about "efficiency" shall we?
Say you are a building a car and have the choice between two engines, for simplicity sake they make the same power at the same RPM:
Engine A: 400hp, 400lbs, 5L, physically smaller (in case you haven't figured it out, a physically smaller engine can be mounted closer to the center of the car and closer to the ground for better all around performance)
Engine B: 400hp, 500lbs, 4L, physically bigger.
Which engine would you put in your performance car? Which is truly more "efficient"?
Let me ask you, what advantage would GM have by decreasing the displacement of their LS3, seriously?
Now how about this, what advantage would they have from increasing the displacement? - you end up making more power, having a flatter torque curve, all with out adding weight or size to the engine - no downsides. You may end up making less hp/l, but thats totally meaningless because you will have more power to weight.



just 'cause i can.......

the coyote will have 420hp. the roadrunner already has 444.

yours truly,
the mustang nutswinger. :engarde:

5.0=ls3

Boss302>ls3

5.8SC>LSA

5.8SC>LS7

5.8SC=LS9 I would venture to say this is comparable to the LS3 v. 5.0...I bet the LS9 weighs less, and it's only an 11hp difference, and the LS9 is physically smaller. Id say they're probably equal stock v stock.

But look what happens when we put them in cars lol

GT>SS

Vette>GT

Boss>base vette (I'd say this is just plain wrong).

Boss=GS This is wrong.

CVS-V> Boss

ZL1>Boss

GT500>CTS-V

GT500(???)ZL1

GT500(???)Z06

ZR1>GT500

Bolded in quote

If he's talking about around a road course, he's right. But I think the LSA should be in there as well. And the 5.8SC > LSA.

ths camaro's only 2 years old. the "new" hasn't worn off yet.

2009
2010
2011
2012

Yup, that's 2 years. The car has been for sale for over 3 years now. The new hasn't worn off yet? Wow, amazingly before the car came out everyone was saying the new would only last a year at most...funny how it's the other way around now?

2009
2010
2011
2012

Yup, that's 2 years. The car has been for sale for over 3 years now. The new hasn't worn off yet? Wow, amazingly before the car came out everyone was saying the new would only last a year at most...funny how it's the other way around now?

09 was a concept car. doesn't count.

just 'cause i can.....

did anyone notice in the video that the zl1 only stops equal to a gt? and that it only skidpads .04 better than a gt? and that it only runs the 1/4 .6second faster?

that all said, the guy driving the thing in this video was a LOT better driver. i'm not sure what he meant by "corrected" though on his second pass where they didn't show a time. the roadrace portion of this video was the best part.

09 was a concept car. doesn't count.

You're an idiot I bought my car in July 2009 as a 2010 model....just like almost every car manufacturer does.


Furthermore when 2010 Camaros were smashing mustang sales, it was because everyone knew the 5.0 was coming back in 2011 so they were waiting to buy that. I dont know what the excuse was when the 5.0 came back, but Im sure its probably because the Boss was coming back and people were waiting for that.

Oh and "just cause I can" you are probably one of the dumbest fuckers to post on tech yet.....just cause I can.

You're an idiot I bought my car in July 2009 as a 2010 model....just like almost every car manufacturer does.


Furthermore when 2010 Camaros were smashing mustang sales, it was because everyone knew the 5.0 was coming back in 2011 so they were waiting to buy that. I dont know what the excuse was when the 5.0 came back, but Im sure its probably because the Boss was coming back and people were waiting for that.

Oh and "just cause I can" you are probably one of the dumbest fuckers to post on tech yet.....just cause I can.

ok....so it's 2 1/2 years old.

if you wanna think that, feel free. you've obviously no clue about me. :zzz:

oh yea......personal attacks are generally a sign of one that realizes that they've lost. :D

ok....so it's 2 1/2 years old.

if you wanna think that, feel free. you've obviously no clue about me. :zzz:

oh yea......personal attacks are generally a sign of one that realizes that they've lost. :D

Just cause I can.....it came out in march.

oh and lost what? lol.

Just cause I can.....it came out in march.

oh and lost what? lol.

if ya wanna keep splitting hairs, it looks like the first one was delivered in april. they only took orders in march. :engarde:

if ya wanna keep splitting hairs, it looks like the first one was delivered in april. they only took orders in march. :engarde:

Yes I do want to keep splitting hairs, and GM took orders for the 2010 camaro in Oct 2008 and the first deliveres started in the end march of 2009 like i said.

Google is your friend.

Yes I do want to keep splitting hairs, and GM took orders for the 2010 camaro in Oct 2008 and the first deliveres started in the end march of 2009 like i said.

Google is your friend.

google is where i found the april date. :engarde:

google is where i found the april date. :engarde:


http://rlv.zcache.com/img/imt-prd/pd-148044169903074104/isz-m/at-238560305421145726/realview.jpg?urbanword_txt=Google%20harder&urbanimage_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.urbandictionary.co m%2Fproducts.image.php%3Fdefid%3D5795059%26revisio n%3Df3a4e3de6d8fca835343eb2b20ef436ef684fbc8

and that it only runs the 1/4 .6second faster?Only .6 seconds?:huh: In drag racing, there is certainly NOTHING "only" about a .6 second gap LOL.
That may as well be an hour in a drag race LOL. ;)

Only .6 seconds?:huh: In drag racing, there is certainly NOTHING "only" about a .6 second gap LOL.
That may as well be an hour in a drag race LOL. ;)

trust me, i know. i've waited for pretty much everything from a half second....not that hard really, it's only one bulb on the tree.......to a tick over 9 seconds......THAT was hard as hell. i ran out pretty bad trying to run him down.