Dynamometer Results & Comparisons - More power, cam only setup

Took off the SLP 2OTL and my Ypipe, that made the 441w.
Put on 2 short strait thew mufflers with a turn down beofre the rear end, stiffer pushrods and shimmed the valvesprings. Put down 450whp, everything else the same. Mike at NewEra touched the tune up, it runs great. Still have some other things to do, for some more power :D

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/studderin/Picture019-2.jpg

Sucks terry manton passed away a few days ago. :(

http://www.mantonpushrods.com/About-Manton-Pushrods.html
He made me these big bad ass pushrods
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/studderin/Mobile%20Uploads/1005111719.jpg

The pushrods lighter? Dont imagine gains from that but idk, The exhaust probly help pick up the most but again idk. Nice gains for sure. Did you rev it any higher?

Nice!

That's bad ass

What clutch do u run?

So you stole my exhaust set-up huh LOL.

What brand mufflers? I've got the Vibrants on mine.

sweet setup! ive heard awesome things about the manton pushrods.

in for more on your setup!!!

Sucks terry manton passed away a few days ago. :(

http://www.mantonpushrods.com/About-Manton-Pushrods.html
He made me these big bad ass pushrods
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/studderin/Mobile%20Uploads/1005111719.jpg

Wow... that's terrible news, man. The made me a really nice set of 3/8" dia. .120" wall pushrods for my SBF 347 several years ago. The 3/8" dia. .080" wall Manley pushrods crapped-out around 7k RPM, as the bullet developed a bad misfire on the dyno. We swapped the pushrods and it sung to 8k RPM without missing a beat. I was very impressed (and learned something in the process).

I'm going to be contacting them soon for the LS3 434 I'm currently working on.

Looks like an awesome set of pushrods... .120" wall or thicker??

The pushrods lighter? Dont imagine gains from that but idk, The exhaust probly help pick up the most but again idk. Nice gains for sure. Did you rev it any higher?

You'd be surprised what can be had from a stiffer (heavier) set of pushrods.

Here is a blurb from Manton's site:

Column Theory
Because a pushrod is an eccentrically loaded column due to angularity load and arc motion within the engines atmosphere, whenever possible, it is most proper to use either a single taper or offset dual taper design pushrod. It is also very important to use the largest diameter pushrod that you can fit in the engine. This will help lessen deflection in the pushrod by putting the major diameter and mass where it is needed the most. The greater the angularity, the greater the arc motion. As the pushrod encounters this, the high load area on the tube moves closer to the energy source. The energy source being the lifter, as it travels up the ramp of the camshaft. It makes it even more important to use these tapered designs when using large roller bearing diameters, increased valve lash, very high engine speeds, high rocker ratios, rapid valve train acceleration and high spring pressure. These tapered designs make it easier for the pushrod to do its job properly, and will enhance the performance of all the other valve train components, which will enable the engine to produce the maximum possible horsepower. The tapered designs and large diameters will also reduce valvetrain harmonics. Do not be over concerned about pushrod weight. The difference between a stock 5/16 diameter pushrod in a small block Chevrolet and a 7/16 to 3/8 tapered pushrod, represents a difference of approximately 2.5% of effective weight. This is because the pushrod is on the slow moving side of the valve train. The effective increase in weight between the two pushrods may be small but provides a huge increase in valve train stability. Remember the valve side of this valve train is the critical side where any weight savings will make marked improvements. No matter what we change, valve train stability is the goal.

Important Special Instructions & Suggestions
It is very important to determine proper pushrod length. Improper pushrod length can cause a number of problems including excessive valve guide wear, lessened valve lift, valve stem side thrust, coil bind, improper valve to piston clearance and also rockerarm to retainer interference (in some cases lash caps can be used to help correct rockerarm to retainer clearance problems).

Check the radius of the lifter receiver cup and rockerarm cup/ball before ordering to help prevent mistakes. Improper ordering may result in parts failure. Watch for variations from stock radius in aftermarket lifters.

Make sure significant oil volume reaches the rockerarm end of the pushrod to help prevent galling due to excessive heat generation and lack of lubrication. To prevent interrupted oil flow to the pushrod, it is very common and almost always necessary to modify the lifter body so oil flows through it no matter where it’s positioned in the lifter bore (call for details). Oil restriction in the engine block is not normally recommended.

When possible, try to use larger diameter pushrods to spread out the load and lower the stress on the tube. This will help lessen pushrod deflection. Heavy wall tubing is a good idea also, to minimize compression. Many problems occur when a pushrod is inadequate for the application.

In high RPM applications tapered pushrods are a must for the serious racers. Tapered designs help to dampen harmonics in the valve train; extended valve spring life and increased usable RPM will usually be noticed.

Do not allow over clearancing for the pushrod. This may cause the pushrod to move around or deflect more than needed. Clearance of .010 at the closest point, wherever that may be during its complete cycle is sufficient. The cylinder head and engine block can often be utilized like a big guide plate and dampening device, which stabilizes the pushrod. Just make sure that there is no interference problems when turning the engine over on the engine stand.

Tapered pushrods should not be used in guide plate applications. Improper clearance and interference problems are sure to occur. Use only straight tube pushrods, specifically surface hardened for guide plate use in this application. Note: See series #2 and #4 for guide plate applications.

If you are using a tool steel rockerarm adjusting screw, it is almost always suggested that a tool steel pushrod tip be used at the rockerarm end. This will ensure proper compatibility.

Note: When using Manton pushrods, adjustments to valve/cam timing, valve to piston clearance and fuel curve may be required.

source: http://www.mantonpushrods.com/Pushrod-Info.html

almost 450rwhp on a cam only setup? holy crap.

Holy crap is right!About to check out this New Era website, if they got one !

Very good website indeed ,just took a look and I see there registered on this site , even better!

Nice increase across the power band, those are some especially nice gains after 6500! Where do you pull the gear?

New Era is a great place. I had my cam installed there and tuned. It ran great and his tune was spot on, never stalled or anything. I am going to bring my new setup to New Era to tune.

Mike at New Era is an excellent tuner.

Pretty decent gain in torque as well Johnny! :D

Nice increase across the power band, those are some especially nice gains after 6500! Where do you pull the gear?

Im not sure yet, I have to try some different things and see what if likes at the track. FYI with the streetsweeper cam I had before (236/240) I think it made peak power at 6500, and still made 420+ for a few hundred more rpm. You can look up the dyno graphs for the numbers. But it went faster with the shiftlight set at 6400. I moved it up like alot of people suggested but it went slower and lost MPH. Times in the sig, I had a ton of passes on that so I could try that.


So far went some 129's with this cam, best of 129.89 in the heat at indyLSX past year. I still had the shift light set kinda low still at 6400, because I didn't have time to dyno and see how it was over 6600rms. But it looks great now to shift higher so should go faster. Its still making about 440whp at 7K :D

I still want to add a vacum pump, that might be 10whp? Prop more like 7-8?
I can port my fast92 better, I just did it quick in maybe 30mins when I had it off testing intake a few years ago. I think going to a 102 or try the truck one too.


edit, Here is the dyno info when I 1st put this cam in and had it tuned.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1465903-new-cam-only-dyno-numbers.html

oh I also went to a manual steering rack since the last time (441). I said it in link I put up but not in the 1st post here about the 450 numbers. I dont think that matters much on the dyno, still have the belt on for the stock WP, and alt. spinning.

Does you exhaust setup have an X-pipe in it?

that is a nice flat graph for a cam only setup. it should hold power good to 7k....

Im not sure yet, I have to try some different things and see what if likes at the track. FYI with the streetsweeper cam I had before (236/240) I think it made peak power at 6500, and still made 420+ for a few hundred more rpm. You can look up the dyno graphs for the numbers. But it went faster with the shiftlight set at 6400. I moved it up like alot of people suggested but it went slower and lost MPH. Times in the sig, I had a ton of passes on that so I could try that.


So far went some 129's with this cam, best of 129.89 in the heat at indyLSX past year. I still had the shift light set kinda low still at 6400, because I didn't have time to dyno and see how it was over 6600rms. But it looks great now to shift higher so should go faster. Its still making about 440whp at 7K :D

I still want to add a vacum pump, that might be 10whp? Prop more like 7-8?
I can port my fast92 better, I just did it quick in maybe 30mins when I had it off testing intake a few years ago. I think going to a 102 or try the truck one too.


edit, Here is the dyno info when I 1st put this cam in and had it tuned.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1465903-new-cam-only-dyno-numbers.html

Yeah I hear ya on what people say... I have had a similar experience. whether you use that rpm or not it defitiely looks alot happier up there.

I'm looking foward to see what you pickup from the vacuum pump.

Great example of a max effort setup with the right combination of parts. I see alot of people on here always stating "eh its not worth the x amount of power you'll gain" i always SMH when i read that, that obviously sets apart a properly running setup to an "okay" running setup. Good work!

Does you exhaust setup have an X-pipe in it?

no it dose not

I've been following your threads for awhile, but never really noticed the MC in your sig pic. I could duplicate that shot with my cars. lol I just picked up a SOM 1994 (98-02 SS clone) and have a 4.3L TBI 86 MC too. It's so slow the 94 roller might outrun it. :D

Congrats on the awesome numbers. You just helped me decide not to spend money on a X pipe.

anyone do fast 92 to 102 only?

anyone do fast 92 to 102 only?

I havent yet, but Id like to. Been looking for some results myself

For people Pm about this cam, I dont see it on the New Era site. But if you call them I'm sure you can get it. Lunati did it, but I dont have a PN you can just call them or summit and order it. The specs I'm not 100% sure on, the lobes are asymmetrical like ed was telling me. The front and the backside profiles are not the same. I remember waiting a little, ed had to check into it, to find who would do what he wanted. Comp couldn't IIRC. But the normal degree wheel isn't accurate to find centers or event,I think you have to have a digital cam doctor to profile the lobe. You can't just pick point like with a wheel, I tried and just got lost, lol :eek2: I already flycut when I ran some ported heads with 58cc chambers. But put it in damaged mock up motor with a stock piston/rod/crank. It's really close PTV, it did turn over. But to close, I dont have my notes right here. I used light test spring, fixed solid stock lifter, and a indicator on the valve to map it fully. Around 10-12* I think?? was min PTV. Any other big cams that are close, and for the same basic layout any OHV engine dose. How the valve chases the piston opening and closing, not at max lift is the closest like people think. That and lift, its RIGHT on .383 every lobe. Stock rockers should be 1.70. But I found the more lift the more the difference of them being a cast body shows up. I bet some stocker guys know what mold and batch number rockers are more. But some are 1.70, some 1.68, some high 1.7x. This is with a solid lifter, lightweight test spring, and adjustable Prod set to zero. So you have some valve lifts .649 and some over .660, just a example. I didn't spend all the time to have the Prod locked with jam nuts, if they would fit even? Just unscrewed, to no lash installed under the tq stock rocker on the guild plate (with other rockers). And a running engine, is way different anyway.... Prod deflections, rocker deflections, heat. Anyway thats about all the real data I looked into.

I really liked the luntia cams, spec right on (lobe lift) Even other normal symmetrical big comps out there I've ran don't spec what the card says... 240/242, I get 241/244? Some Trexs are 250* ext. I really don't care that much into it, I'm not a cam guy. Ed dose that, and I just wanted LOL.... More power then I had with the streetsweeper and carry rpm more. With stock heads, and a FAST not have to rev it to 7500 and blow the motor up. Or need race valve train parts, that cost more then building a new motor would. And run good for a street driving all weather maff tune, I can just get in and drive. Mike is a really good tuner, not just doing LS1s. He told me a little about contracted for GM turning experiential fuels, and motor, drivetrain setups in this crazy secret huge money testing building they have local. I helped a little learning the VVT and DOD cams years ago when they 1st came out, so super lucky he can talk to ed about latest and greatest stuff.
He added some of the other lunati ones that came out recently, the voodoo, and the voodoo high lift ones I see the site. At .050 its about high 23X* intake lobe. The ext, is 24x* kinda like the, 60518 voodoo high lift,

286/290 Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 235/239
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .651"/.651
LSA/ICL: 112/108 Valve Lash (Int/Exh):
RPM Range: 2400-7000 Includes: Cam Only

http://www.neweraperformanceparts.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=316&category_id=51&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=54

But I know the LSA should be tighter like the carb cams. That 60520 one?


http://www.lunatipower.com/Media/Documents/Lunati%20New%20LS%20Cams.pdf

You'd be surprised what can be had from a stiffer (heavier) set of pushrods.

Here is a blurb from Manton's site:



source: http://www.mantonpushrods.com/Pushrod-Info.html


Ya, thats a great read. I've been told and learning valvetrain weights on the pushrod side don't matter that much. Its the valve side that dose.

102 all day over the 90/92

No questions asked...With my lightweight valves and intake swap i gained around 20rwhp but i have heads...

Lsxrt

Lsxrt

in my eyes both are great but you can not beat the straight shot of the LSXrt.

ya Looks like I might have to get a 102 next, I can run that too for the AM worldcup too, and its OEM style for other classes.

Chris, this was my same parts, stock sealed airbox, sux2BU, paper filter, SLP lid (89-90mm outlet) GM truck maff (no screen) that 22* elbow for use, to the 92mm TB. Mikes told me and I saw the dyno pulls back to back on older setups like mine wen that new bigger lids came you they didn't gain anything, with the MAF and 92mm TB. But you cut your lid out I remeber bigger, whats maff and did you change to, and what did what?

Nice, that sucks about terry manton, Ive got the same pushrods you do....

The curve looks much better especially up top and making some good power. The car is still lacking rpm though up top and should carry out to 7K rpm.

Yeah you are exactly right Johnny little to no gain will be seen by switching the tb or descreened maf...the lid becomes the restriction...either 98-104mm FTP lids flow around the same size as a 85mm bellmouth...so to make use of the 102/102 setup you need to open up all restrictions to that size...even though the lid is called a 98mm or 102mm it necks down and is flattened out on the bottom side where it sits on the filter...

Long story short I gained 6rwhp going from a standard FTP 98mm lid to my custom 4" bellmouth lid on back to back pulls...both were done in SD tune and going through only my 92/92 setup...gains would be more on my 102/102 setup now :)...

Also for what it is worth and squeezing out every last hp...try the XPR royal purple...worth a few hp too :)...alright no more leaking golden info haha jk

How's the power down low with this cam, for DD?

Is it a dog until 2500 - 3000+ rpms??

The curve looks much better especially up top and making some good power. The car is still lacking rpm though up top and should carry out to 7K rpm.

ya, its getting better thanks. I wish it did increase up to 7, the others cams did the same. got any ideas?
At 7K the street sweeper was making 390whp thu the 2OTL, I never dynoed with the max power muffler exhaust setup this is. This new cam was making about 415 @7 (up 25) with the 2OTL, but this was not stable and months after. The current setup (max power muffler exhaust, better pushrods, lighter retainers) @7K is 435whp. That up 45whp :eek2: then the streetsweepers best.
But its up a TON in the RPM range at the racetrack, gained RPMs.
I dont really care about looking into these paper numbers, Ive been more of making lots of track passes and tesing things. But its winter, looks like its over 420whp all the time now 5,500-7,200.


Yeah you are exactly right Johnny little to no gain will be seen by switching the tb or descreened maf...the lid becomes the restriction...either 98-104mm FTP lids flow around the same size as a 85mm bellmouth...so to make use of the 102/102 setup you need to open up all restrictions to that size...even though the lid is called a 98mm or 102mm it necks down and is flattened out on the bottom side where it sits on the filter...

Long story short I gained 6rwhp going from a standard FTP 98mm lid to my custom 4" bellmouth lid on back to back pulls...both were done in SD tune and going through only my 92/92 setup...gains would be more on my 102/102 setup now :)...

Also for what it is worth and squeezing out every last hp...try the XPR royal purple...worth a few hp too :)...alright no more leaking golden info haha jk
ya I saw that looking at the bigger lids, The 104 just has a 104 lip the big 100 mafs fits into, but then it steps down to the same as the 98 lids neck is. so ? I'll see what Mike says, I know he makes the flanges for the cartage style mafs on the new stuff, on the OTR G8, camaro5, TBSS, CTSV intakes.
http://www.neweraperformanceparts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=59
They CnC them alum, the shop makes them right there. I dont know if I can just have him weld one of those on a 10x mm alum tube, get the slot maf. If I can just plug into that and have him tube it with my 01 PCM, if it works like that. I don't know the new stuff that well, but looks the same and the other 10x maf?
I really want to keep a MAF and lid setup, I love just getting into the car and starting it. And not having to tune it, if its 90 outside or under 30 I drive it on clean roads.
I can get a SLP lid for like $100 new of a user one. I'm thinking I can do a long pie cut on the top of bottom of the neck. Heat gun/micro wave it, to re shape it spread it open more. So its 10x MM and plastic weld, or some good expoxy the pie-cut in. Ive seen some show guys make a SLP/blackwing lid that way, came out looking strong. I'm gona have to rasie the Next up for the LSXRT too :angel:
Or like you did run the tube in it, and I can have one of the inlet bellows welded on, and notched to fit like the OTR intake have.

1st pic is as cast lid. VV The 2nd hard to tell but is stretched open with the pie-cut added. you get the idea.

How's the power down low with this cam, for DD?

Is it a dog until 2500 - 3000+ rpms??


Not sure how to answer these, haha.
Its not a dumptruck, it's a lightwight 6speed car with 4.56 gears you can rev over 7K. From a stop I can let the clutch out slow, and get the car rolling without giving it any gas. If I had stock gears and the car was 3700 that woud suck to do. Most of the time I use some throttle anyway because then your "cruising" ? at the 900 rpm idle and it will pull - rump,rump,rump, with the cam lobe, but not stall or anything. Not the 2Krpm 6th gear bucking a 240-250 cam dose, I dont know why you would do that to be under 2,500 rpms anyway. You lean that the 1st time driving a big cam car.
Once it moving even 1mph 900rpm, going WOT its gona spin the tires bad. It will anytime in 1st 2nd and bonce off the limiter, even 3rd when the roads are cold on DRs. If you want to be a ricer haha. A rolling 4th pull from 4K up is will spin a little, but still pulls hard. Never really tested to see under that (3500) I have another gear to drop into, with the powerband to pull over 6500-7000 at use.

This is the only data I have for LOW RPM on this cam, I dont know if its good or not, lol looks like about 300wtq at 3K rpms
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/studderin/Picture003-4.jpg

looks like about 300wtq at 3K rpms 270wtq at 2700, I would guess 250 @2500?

This is the only data I have for LOW RPM on this cam, I dont know if its good or not, lol looks like about 300wtq at 3K rpms
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/studderin/Picture003-4.jpg

looks like about 300wtq at 3K rpms 270wtq at 2700, I would guess 250 @2500?300 RWTQ at 3000rpm is pretty damn good for a cam that big,IMO.

lightweight tool steel retainers :huh:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/studderin/Picture010-6.jpg

actual lightweight Ti retainers
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y11/studderin/Picture006-8.jpg

wait I cont believe I didn't write it in the 1st post. But one of the changes form the 441, what that was with the Luntias spring kit and there tool steel retainers. I re shipping the springs and put my old patriot Ti retains with the super7 locks on that spring kit. And it helps alot (with the stiffer prods) for smoothing it out 6600-7300 on the 450 pulls

^^ That was what I wanted to know! I was wondering whose Ti retainers fit that kit, b/c Lunati tells me they don't have a Ti retainer to fit thast kit.

Great thread, studderin.... much appreciation.