Automotive News, Media & Press - Volt sales up!

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120301/AUTO0103/203010417/1121/auto/GM-says-Volt-sales-up-in-February

I'm still no fan, but this story(expected to be accurate) is good news for GM, though nothing tremendous.

The overall sales of VOLT have finally eclipsed 10,000! It took far, far too long, but that is done. Otherwise, it's a fairly informative story, for being quite short. One thing that stood out to me is, GM sold only 37 fleet units for the month! That's BIG, considering they sold 1,023 total. On the other hand, it may be bad, because there were big plans to sell to fleets.

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/gm-laying-1300-due-low-volt-sales/406771

They are laying people off and blaming the media. How about making the car a little less expensive you f*cking morons. Who the hell wants to buy a hybrid that starts at 40k.

Who the hell wants to buy a hybrid that starts at 40k.

Especially when the Cruze Eco can be had for half the price, and pull down 40+ highway mpg all day long.

The volt is the new edsel.

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/gm-laying-1300-due-low-volt-sales/406771

They are laying people off and blaming the media. How about making the car a little less expensive you f*cking morons. Who the hell wants to buy a hybrid that starts at 40k.

it's not a hybrid. it's an electric car...........:engarde::corn:

That just figures... I think the new FOCUS Electric, maybe not on sale yet, but ALSO slated to start at 40k(39,200 (evidently down a bit)... It's KERAZEEE to spend that much money on this kind of car!

'Let's see... I can buy a Focus for 17k with a 40mpg hwy rating, or I can buy a plug-in version at more than 2 times that price... YES! I'll take the plug-in!'

Which MO-RON is planning THAT little trip??? It's probably notably more technologically advanced than the VOLT, but it had better be, since it's 100% electric. I don't know why they think cars like this are a great idea... they're not. The Volt isn't worth 40k and it's got a gas engine. The Focus sure as Hell isn't worth 40k either, considering it MUST have a fairly limited range.

Why are people so butt hurt about cars like these ?
I hope they sell tons of them.
The more Volts, Leafs, etc on the road means more fossil fuels for me.

Sure you can get a 40mpg Cruze for half the price.You can also get leather in it for half the price of a ES350. By that logic I can get a Nissan Versa for half the price of the Cruze, add leather, Nav and all the other things a ES350 comes with for a few $1000 more. But that's not the point is it?
I would rock a Volt if it made sense for me. I can add Solar panels to my house but I can't build a refinery in my back yard.

they can't sell em if they ain't buildin' em......

http://www.freep.com/article/20120302/BUSINESS0101/120302035/Volt-production-on-hold-for-5-weeks?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Why are people so butt hurt about cars like these ?
I hope they sell tons of them.
The more Volts, Leafs, etc on the road means more fossil fuels for me.

Sure you can get a 40mpg Cruze for half the price.You can also get leather in it for half the price of a ES350. By that logic I can get a Nissan Versa for half the price of the Cruze, add leather, Nav and all the other things a ES350 comes with for a few $1000 more. But that's not the point is it?
I would rock a Volt if it made sense for me. I can add Solar panels to my house but I can't build a refinery in my back yard.The problem many have is simply that TAX DOLLARS are being wasted to not only CREATE these cars, but ALSO to sell them! It burns people up that our government simply THROWS our money away, good after bad, time and time again, day in, day out.

For the 40k spent on a VOLT, I can buy a far nicer car... like a new CORVETTE! Or an Impala if ride or space is my issue. Could even buy a nice new pickup truck. If my interest is TRULY in saving energy, I know I can buy a car which cost much less to produce and thereby, save energy.

they can't sell em if they ain't buildin' em......

http://www.freep.com/article/20120302/BUSINESS0101/120302035/Volt-production-on-hold-for-5-weeks?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
You do realize this is the same story you quoted above, right? ;)

PS... The VOLT is indeed a Hybrid, as it has 2 "propulsion" sources. :razz:

I like the looks of the Volt... & I'm glad GM made something to compete with the Prius. They were just to late on the ball. & yea the price is a lil crazy. But other then that its everything better then a Prius. Plus I have been seeing a lot more Volt commercials on TV so? GM has never really been good with advertising & I've began to notice they've stepped that up a lil bit. But I still think they need a commercial with a story of someone who owns a Volt & how long hes gone without having to fill it up. That right there gets people drawn to it

Which would you rather own?
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/378958_10150536214264388_578724387_10909941_206934 502_n.jpg

The problem many have is simply that TAX DOLLARS are being wasted to not only CREATE these cars, but ALSO to sell them! It burns people up that our government simply THROWS our money away, good after bad, time and time again, day in, day out.

For the 40k spent on a VOLT, I can buy a far nicer car... like a new CORVETTE! Or an Impala if ride or space is my issue. Could even buy a nice new pickup truck. If my interest is TRULY in saving energy, I know I can buy a car which cost much less to produce and thereby, save energy.


:eyes: that's the difference between you & an normal average day person... Your thinking at it all wrong. Yes the price is to much & they did do a survey which showed majority of people who own Volts are richer. But also majority of people who are buying Volts, Prius, Leafs, etc aren't sport/muscle car people. I mean yea Id much rather spend $40k on a Vette as well but that's because what kind of people we are. Either way the Volts price needs to be dropped & in the low $30k range

The problem with the Volt cost is the fact that it has a ton of tech and the lithium batteries cost a fortune... i hope they sell alot too but i won't be buying one

The problem many have is simply that TAX DOLLARS are being wasted to not only CREATE these cars, but ALSO to sell them! It burns people up that our government simply THROWS our money away, good after bad, time and time again, day in, day out.

For the 40k spent on a VOLT, I can buy a far nicer car... like a new CORVETTE! Or an Impala if ride or space is my issue. Could even buy a nice new pickup truck. If my interest is TRULY in saving energy, I know I can buy a car which cost much less to produce and thereby, save energy.


You do realize this is the same story you quoted above, right? ;)

PS... The VOLT is indeed a Hybrid, as it has 2 "propulsion" sources. :razz:

DOH!
i didn';t click that link. EDIT.. it just hit me. it's probably a bad thing that they're stopping production for now. why? because they're gonna beg the govt for more money.

i know it's a hybrid.......but they were trying to sell it as an electric car for the longest time. :D

Let's not forget that GM lobbied to raise gas pricing so that the Volt would sell.

Generally, it takes a generation (20 yrs) for people to become comfortable w/ change. GM aught to know better than to think the Volt would take off right away. Eventually, the masses will buy battery/electric, hydrogen generator/electric, & gas engine/electric powered cars. It just takes time. Of course hydrogen electric will be the best choice, but, all three types will be available.

FINALLY Chevy makes a commercial that shows how good the Volts mpg is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKAn5ah4piw&feature=uploademail

^ First Ad i've actually seen about the Volt. besides the super bowl one.

Some points:

Yes it costs tax dollars money... Who gives a shit? If they don't spend it on the VOLT im sure the government has another way of spending it so they might as well be spending it on a car that is actually made in america ( Hamtramck plant in Michigan )

As the gas motor is running (if your driving or just idling doesn't matter it's still producing RPMs) it is charging the electric motor.

If your driving home from work and your electric motor is out of charge. and you tell it your going home. the gas motor will charge the electric motor up just enough to where it can kick on and stop using fuel and get you home.

We're trying to use more electric in this country than fuel; I live in the BFE part of Ohio compared to you guys. My closest walmart is 40 miles away and the nearest mcdonalds is a good 25 miles if that says anything and I'm seeing wind mills out here.

FINALLY Chevy makes a commercial that shows how good the Volts mpg is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKAn5ah4piw&feature=uploademail

They should do that same cost analysis, but compare it to a Chevy Cruze eco. See how long it takes the owner of the Volt to recoup the extra money they spent to purchase the Volt over the Cruze.

It isn't always about the money for some people that buy cars like the volt. They feel good by not buying gas so often or at all if that's possible.

When's somebody going to do an lsx swap to a volt:drive:

Some points:

Yes it costs tax dollars money... Who gives a shit? If they don't spend it on the VOLT im sure the government has another way of spending it so they might as well be spending it on a car that is actually made in america ( Hamtramck plant in Michigan )Who? Millions of Americans who are SICK OF SPENDING! They don't need to spend that money and it's OUR money, not theirs, to spend! I'm tired of giving handouts, even to people in MEEEEEEESHIGAN! Build a better product... People will purchase it as they desire. End of story and it works. If you don't give a shit, it's PROBABLY because you're in that massive group who doesn't pay tax and for whatever sad reason, has no sense of responsibility regarding these things. You probably want a VOLT... so long as its free for you. :eyes:

Btw, many of the parts used to make the VOLT are made OVER SEAS... Like, the batteries... There's roughly 400 lb of the car made in Korea(or wherever, but NOT in America).

As the gas motor is running (if your driving or just idling doesn't matter it's still producing RPMs) it is charging the electric motor.That's the sole job of the gas engine, so let's hope that's what it is doing.

If your driving home from work and your electric motor is out of charge. and you tell it your going home. the gas motor will charge the electric motor up just enough to where it can kick on and stop using fuel and get you home.Where did you hear THAT line of nonsense?

You think you can simply say, "Hey gas engine! I'm going home now, so... uh... just go ahead and charge the battery EXACTLY that much and shut off again so as to not waste any fuel and when I get there, I promise I'll "plug in" for tomorrow!" :lol: The video ad you just commented on completely disagrees with this scenario...

Besides, how would you suppose it's moving at all, without using fuel of some sort???

We're trying to use more electric in this country than fuel; I live in the BFE part of Ohio compared to you guys. My closest walmart is 40 miles away and the nearest mcdonalds is a good 25 miles if that says anything and I'm seeing wind mills out here.Electricity... IS... fuel.

FINALLY Chevy makes a commercial that shows how good the Volts mpg is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKAn5ah4piw&feature=uploademail


so what they're saying, is that it gets about 40 or so mpg. on the highway, it only goes 379 miles on a tankful? not very good. mom does farther than that in her 94 protege going to florida and back. hell....i think i went that distance in my 83 mustang 5 liter when i took that to florida.....although it's been so long, i honestly don't remember.

around town......it should trump a gas car easily. but......then again...the fuel usage is approximately half. how much do these cost again? i'd imagine that that fuel savings is going to be spent in car payments vs a chevy cruze that also gets 40+ mpg...and is probably a LOT more fun to drive...and a LOT cheaper. or vs a ford focus which does 40+ mpg, more fun to drive, and a LOT cheaper.

35 miles on the battery....that's pretty laughable to be honest. give me a focus, or cruze if mileage is what i'm looking for.

almost forgot.....the last thing they hit, is carbon emissions. yea....a lot less comes out the tailpipe. that's because a LOT more comes out the exhaust stacks.

When's somebody going to do an lsx swap to a volt:drive:

i friggin LIKE that idea. or we could piss off the chevy purists, and drope a coyote in one. :D

^ First Ad i've actually seen about the Volt. besides the super bowl one.

Some points:

Yes it costs tax dollars money... Who gives a shit? If they don't spend it on the VOLT im sure the government has another way of spending it so they might as well be spending it on a car that is actually made in america ( Hamtramck plant in Michigan )how about rather than buying something new that they can't afford with our tax dolllars(the development of this thing) if they used those tax dollars towards the debt? or does that make too much sense?

As the gas motor is running (if your driving or just idling doesn't matter it's still producing RPMs) it is charging the electric motor.yes, and it doesn't significantly extend the range apparently.

If your driving home from work and your electric motor is out of charge. and you tell it your going home. the gas motor will charge the electric motor up just enough to where it can kick on and stop using fuel and get you home.

We're trying to use more electric in this country than fuel; I live in the BFE part of Ohio compared to you guys. My closest walmart is 40 miles away and the nearest mcdonalds is a good 25 miles if that says anything and I'm seeing wind mills out here.


do you think electric will not go up substantiaLLY?

so what they're saying, is that it gets about 40 or so mpg. on the highway, it only goes 379 miles on a tankful? not very good. mom does farther than that in her 94 protege going to florida and back. hell....i think i went that distance in my 83 mustang 5 liter when i took that to florida.....although it's been so long, i honestly don't remember.

around town......it should trump a gas car easily. but......then again...the fuel usage is approximately half. how much do these cost again? i'd imagine that that fuel savings is going to be spent in car payments vs a chevy cruze that also gets 40+ mpg...and is probably a LOT more fun to drive...and a LOT cheaper. or vs a ford focus which does 40+ mpg, more fun to drive, and a LOT cheaper.

35 miles on the battery....that's pretty laughable to be honest. give me a focus, or cruze if mileage is what i'm looking for.

almost forgot.....the last thing they hit, is carbon emissions. yea....a lot less comes out the tailpipe. that's because a LOT more comes out the exhaust stacks.

:eyes: that's because everyone's driving 400+ miles a day right.... Majority of people drive 40+- miles a day. Which is what the electric battery gets meaning majority of people NEVER even use up gas in the Volt. There for they use up the whole battery a day & then go home charge it over night & use it up the next day. IMO that's pretty damn good.

:eyes: that's because everyone's driving 400+ miles a day right.... Majority of people drive 40+- miles a day. Which is what the electric battery gets meaning majority of people NEVER even use up gas in the Volt. There for they use up the whole battery a day & then go home charge it over night & use it up the next day. IMO that's pretty damn good.Except for those who ARE doing what you think... driving around 40 per day. They'll be using gasoline for sure, as the car goes only about 35 on battery power.

VOLT is great for those who only have to drive 35 or less per day. Of course, if that's ALL the driving they do, those same people will be well off with a Cruze or Focus too. By the time they spend as much on fuel as it cost to cover the difference in initial price, it will be time to buy the next new car. After all, 20-25 thousand dollars in fuel will get one a very long way at 30mpg.

:eyes: that's because everyone's driving 400+ miles a day right.... Majority of people drive 40+- miles a day. Which is what the electric battery gets meaning majority of people NEVER even use up gas in the Volt. There for they use up the whole battery a day & then go home charge it over night & use it up the next day. IMO that's pretty damn good.

i personally know at least 4 people that have 100 mile round trips to work.

yes, they WILL use gas, as the gas engine is going to kick in before that 35 mile range is hit. most likely it'll kick in around 20 miles, as the battery will be pretty far discharged at that point, and losing ability to propel the vehicle at safe speeds reliably due to this discharge.

Except for those who ARE doing what you think... driving around 40 per day. They'll be using gasoline for sure, as the car goes only about 35 on battery power.

VOLT is great for those who only have to drive 35 or less per day. Of course, if that's ALL the driving they do, those same people will be well off with a Cruze or Focus too. By the time they spend as much on fuel as it cost to cover the difference in initial price, it will be time to buy the next new car. After all, 20-25 thousand dollars in fuel will get one a very long way at 30mpg.

this is part of what i was trying to say previously.

so what they're saying, is that it gets about 40 or so mpg. on the highway, it only goes 379 miles on a tankful? not very good. mom does farther than that in her 94 protege going to florida and back. hell....i think i went that distance in my 83 mustang 5 liter when i took that to florida.....although it's been so long, i honestly don't remember.

around town......it should trump a gas car easily. but......then again...the fuel usage is approximately half. how much do these cost again? i'd imagine that that fuel savings is going to be spent in car payments vs a chevy cruze that also gets 40+ mpg...and is probably a LOT more fun to drive...and a LOT cheaper. or vs a ford focus which does 40+ mpg, more fun to drive, and a LOT cheaper.

35 miles on the battery....that's pretty laughable to be honest. give me a focus, or cruze if mileage is what i'm looking for.

almost forgot.....the last thing they hit, is carbon emissions. yea....a lot less comes out the tailpipe. that's because a LOT more comes out the exhaust stacks.


You can walk around it all you like but the bottom line is people driving that car fill up as often as regular cars change their oil. There was a time when $50 bucks or so was only spent during an oil change, now it's spent every week on gas. These cars don't have to spend $40-$60 or more on gas every week. I'm actually curious to see the stats of how many month's people go without a fill up on these cars. And plugging in, especially at night, is a shit ton cheaper, they spend less every month on their electric bill than most people do every week. That's basically the bottom line with this car, and how is 35 miles laughable on electric when it's more than enough for most people to get to work and back, or do you take long 100+ mile trips every day of the week?

The downside is the price, but it's only a matter of time before that comes down. You had people say the same thing about dvd's when vhs's were an option and so much cheaper, then blu ray came around for thousands when dvd was so much cheaper, cell phones, laptops with megabytes of hard drive space to gigabytes and now terabytes is the norm (hell, even cd players used to cost a thousand bucks when they were new). Technology like this grows fast unless the oil and gas companies shut it down. And that last paragraph, it's so funny to see you and them complain about emissions, that's laughable.

i personally know at least 4 people that have 100 mile round trips to work.


Out of curiosity, what do they drive, if I may ask?

You can walk around it all you like but the bottom line is people driving that car fill up as often as regular cars change their oil. There was a time when $50 bucks or so was only spent during an oil change, now it's spent every week on gas. These cars don't have to spend $40-$60 or more on gas every week. I'm actually curious to see the stats of how many month's people go without a fill up on these cars. And plugging in, especially at night, is a shit ton cheaper, they spend less every month on their electric bill than most people do every week. That's basically the bottom line with this car, and how is 35 miles laughable on electric when it's more than enough for most people to get to work and back, or do you take long 100+ mile trips every day of the week?

The downside is the price, but it's only a matter of time before that comes down. You had people say the same thing about dvd's when vhs's were an option and so much cheaper, then blu ray came around for thousands when dvd was so much cheaper, cell phones, laptops with megabytes of hard drives to gigabytes and now terabytes is the norm (Hell, cd players used to cost a thousand bucks when they were new). Technology like this grows fast unless the oil and gas companies shut it down. And that last paragraph, it's so funny to see you and them complain about emissions, that's laughable.



Out of curiosity, what do they drive, if I may ask?


bmw z4, saturn vue, dodge ram 1500(he complains about gas, but won't own a non-v8), and a ford exploder. the beemer gets good mileage, as does the vue....the other two, not so much.

my personal commute is 8 miles. but....how do you think running the a/c or heat would survive in those 8 miles of stop n go traffic? not well i'd suspect. nor do i desire to have to plug my car in every night.
annnd.....if we go to the "clean" portion......it's better to not go there.

bmw z4, saturn vue, dodge ram 1500(he complains about gas, but won't own a non-v8), and a ford exploder. the beemer gets good mileage, as does the vue....the other two, not so much.

my personal commute is 8 miles. but....how do you think running the a/c or heat would survive in those 8 miles of stop n go traffic? not well i'd suspect. nor do i desire to have to plug my car in every night.
annnd.....if we go to the "clean" portion......it's better to not go there.

I think it would survive just fine but that's fine that you don't desire one, no one is forcing anyone else to buy one (please don't give me the crap about the government subsidizing new technology god forbid, how long have they been subsidizing oil and gas for).

Gas and diesel engines aren't going anywhere in your lifetime thanks to trucks and big rigs, not to mention India and other developing countries, but if anything these types of cars might make it easier on your pockets to enjoy the cars you like in the coming years.

annnd.....if we go to the "clean" portion......it's better to not go there.

Are you serious?

it's not a hybrid. it's an electric:

The Volt is considered a "series hybrid" whereas the Prius and all the others are considered a "parallel hybrid".

The Volt is a vastly superior design. The Volt is what is next. I would buy one TODAY if the price was better.

They are available as a lease for $2500 down and $350 per month. If I drove more miles daily, I could justify it, but I don't. So, it will be a Ford Fusion sign and drive lease for me. $285 a month and no money down. Best deal out there if you ask me.

I think it would survive just fine but that's fine that you don't desire one, no one is forcing anyone else to buy one (please don't give me the crap about the government subsidizing new technology god forbid, how long have they been subsidizing oil and gas for).

Gas and diesel engines aren't going anywhere in your lifetime thanks to trucks and big rigs, not to mention India and other developing countries, but if anything these types of cars might make it easier on your pockets to enjoy the cars you like in the coming years.



Are you serious?


yea i am. go read up on them, and ask me again. :engarde:

yea i am. go read up on them, and ask me again. :engarde:

Sure thing, I'll go and get right on that ;) Seriously though, you know you could care less about the environment, and I won't get into the whole does smoking cause cancer, is global warming real, are electric cars worse than gas/diesel powered cars.

Consider this though, that prius driver that so many here make fun of, he probably skips every other week compared to how often you and others fill up, maybe even skips a couple of weeks at a time or more. Think of the money that's saving that can be used towards mods. While so many complain about an expensive phone bill once in a while that comes in monthly, you don't even think twice about something you pay weekly. So while you laugh at them, they're smiling their way to the bank with a decent resale value too.

I think GM had hidden motifs with the Volt. They seemed to want to do the old bait and switch getting people in the door only to convince them to buy the Cruze or another model. I don't think they had any interest to keep up with demand back then, and I think if they really wanted they could have priced it more competitively like Nissan did with the Leaf. With the prius pluggin on the way and Ford jumping into the fray, the technology and batteries will be getting cheaper soon enough whether GM really wanted it to or not.

But again, gas/diesel powertrains obviously aren't going away in our lifetime so what is the downside to pursuing this technology to wean us away from foreign oil and Saudi Arabia having us by the balls? And if you haven't noticed, unlike the rest of the developed world, our public transportation is a joke (can thank GM for buying up the trolley system and other public transit just to shut them down), so when the oil industry or speculators on wall street want to squeeze all we can do is squeal.

It is truly amazing how long Toyota is taking to get the plug in Prius to market. After market companies had it all sorted out years ago. I just have to wonder what the hell is taking them so long.

Except for those who ARE doing what you think... driving around 40 per day. They'll be using gasoline for sure

Check and mate Atheists!

Whoops, wrong topic.

VOLT is great for those who only have to drive 35 or less per day. Of course, if that's ALL the driving they do, those same people will be well off with a Cruze or Focus too. By the time they spend as much on fuel as it cost to cover the difference in initial price, it will be time to buy the next new car. After all, 20-25 thousand dollars in fuel will get one a very long way at 30mpg.

Great if that's ALL the driving they do? Why is it so bad to use a little gas once in a while going over 35 miles per day? The volt is still getting 90+ miles equivalent while the cruize "eco" (you act like it's the equivalent of a GTR badge, must mean it's so fast, eco must mean it gets incredible gas mileage) get's 40 highway, which is the standard for you because we all live on the highway, go shopping and do other day to day activities on the highway right? What is it's city mpg, what are people seeing in the real world compared to volt owners that talk about filling up seasons apart.

People were saying the same things about the prius and they thought it's resale value would also be abysmal due to it's scary unkown hybrid technology, yet it has one of the best resale values of any car and goes over 200k miles without needing to replace it's battery packs or engine and drivetrain for that matter:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/04/autos/toyota_prius_battery_life/index.htm

Quoted from the article:
The magazine recently tested a Prius with 207,000 miles on it.

The warranty on a Prius battery pack is good for 8 years or 100,000 miles. (Ironically exactly the same as the volt's warranty.)

To find out what 207,000 city and highway miles had done to the car's hybrid batteries, Consumer Reports engineers put the aged Prius through the same series of performance and fuel economy tests they administer to new cars.
Then they compared the results to those of a virtually identical Prius that had been tested when it was new.

How did the older Prius perform? The 200,000-plus-mile Prius performed almost exactly the same as a comparable new Prius. Overall fuel economy, city and highway combined, suffered by just two-tenths of a mile per gallon.

The old Prius got from zero-to-60 in 13 seconds, less than half second slower than the new car.





Where did you hear THAT line of nonsense?

You think you can simply say, "Hey gas engine! I'm going home now, so... uh... just go ahead and charge the battery EXACTLY that much and shut off again so as to not waste any fuel and when I get there, I promise I'll "plug in" for tomorrow!" :lol: The video ad you just commented on completely disagrees with this scenario...

Besides, how would you suppose it's moving at all, without using fuel of some sort???

Electricity... IS... fuel.

I know right, what sort of sorcery...it's like saying:

"Hey, new air conditioner, it's getting a little cold in here, uh...just go ahead and stay on standby until EXACTLY that much and shut off again so as to not waste any Electricity which...IS...fuel until it's needed again!" :lol: The advertisements disagree with this scenario completely, hence the manual on/off button.

The real question that requires an answer is: how much pollution per kilowatt does one of our average power plants produce compared to the pollution of your average automobile engine per kilowatt. Then, we can really know if it is a more ecological solution.

However we will need to take into consideration eddy current power losses of electricity transmission from the plant to the home. On the other side of the equation: the environmental impact of all the other fluids that are no longer needed in a pure electric vehicle. It is these question that I ask.

One more important point is to look even further down the road at a potential home with both solar panels and a wind turbine. In that scenario, the electric car's environmental impact changes significantly.

Well, something I stumbled onto on autoblog a little while back: http://green.autoblog.com/2011/10/14/how-gas-cars-use-more-electricity-to-go-100-miles-than-evs-do/

It's not too big so I'll just quote the whole thing here.
EVangelist Peder Norby, who has been having more fun driving and writing about his Mini E than anyone at BMW probably thought possible, recently wrote a most interesting post comparing electricity usage to produce gasoline to the electricity needed to drive an electric car. The short version: "It takes more electricity to drive the average gasoline car 100 miles, than it does to drive an electric car 100 miles."

Let's go over that again. If we simply count the electricity used to make the gasoline that gets burned in a normal vehicle, you need more juice than you do to move an EV the same distance. Of course, then you need to factor in the actual gasoline used (and the resulting CO2 emissions). Plus, don't forget, it takes a bunch of water to refine gasoline. Put this all together and you've got on hell of an energy efficiency argument in favor of plug-in vehicles. Here are some numbers (get more details in Norby's post ).

There is no exact calculation for how much electricity it takes to drill, transport and refine a gallon of gasoline, but the accepted amount is around 8 kWh. So, for 8 kWh, you can go around 22 miles (using the U.S. average; we know you can go over twice that if you drive a Toyota Prius ). That means that a gasoline car uses just under 40 kWh to go 100 miles. An EV, on the other hand, uses around 30 kWh to go 100 miles (given 3.3 miles per kWh, which is on the low side for some cars). Even if the exact numbers need to be shifted a bit one way or the other, we're just comparing electricity use here – not the petroleum that needs to be factored in for the ICE vehicle. So, if we were able to magically use all the electricity that is currently spent to give us gas and shove it into automotive battery packs instead, we'd use less energy and no gasoline. So much for the long tailpipe argument. Nissan sometimes uses this argument when advertising the Leaf , but it's not a commonly used statistic. We wonder why.

But on here as well as most places, I believe most people only care whether it's a viable option financially. Would it make sense to have as a daily for your commutes and regular day to day activities while having something fun on the side. Environmentally, it's universally agreed upon by 99.9999% of scientists that electric cars are not worse than the impact our current cars have, even with all the years they've had to develop ICE. With investments like solar panels, I think it's well worth it. You can cut your power and fuel costs at the same time with a small investment now, so when you retire you'll have that much less monthly bills to pay, and fuel and utility bills is actually a good chunk of it, especially if the house will be paid off.

One way or the other, we need these alternatives, we can't realistically rely fully on oil. I'm gen Y, this is going to impact me whether it's peak oil or environmentally. It's like seeing every model predict Katrina (which it did) but ignoring it thanks to the baby boomer "I got mine" mentality. And the politicians "keep filling my pockets, don't fuck with my retirement" mindset.

Edit: Ironically, Bob Lutz, who's no scientist, doesn't believe in global warming to this day, reason I mention him is because of this article from today that was kinda funny: http://green.autoblog.com/2012/03/06/bob-lutz-gets-a-lesson-in-climate-change-science-from-neil-degr/

But the irony is, even though he doesn't believe in it, could care less what effect an electric car or ICE car will have on the environment, he pushed through the volt, and may have been the only one in GM to truly believe the technology has a future and actually enjoys it. He, of all people, simply thinks it's a better car.

The Cruze Eco averaged 42 mpg highway when Car and Driver tested one. Averaged 47 mpg commuting (40ish mph sustained). Outperformed the Volt on highway mileage. I thought it was impressive....the diesel model could really mix things up.

Check and mate Atheists!

Whoops, wrong topic.I'm not convinced you know which topic you're in yet! ;)

Great if that's ALL the driving they do? Why is it so bad to use a little gas once in a while going over 35 miles per day?I never said there's anything bad about it, but I was responding to another... Perhaps you should've read what I was responding to, so you'd know that I was merely pointing out the simple reality, the car will need to burn gasoline after about 35miles, according to GM.

The volt is still getting 90+ miles equivalent while the cruize "eco" (you act like it's the equivalent of a GTR badge, must mean it's so fast, eco must mean it gets incredible gas mileage) get's 40 highway, which is the standard for you because we all live on the highway, go shopping and do other day to day activities on the highway right? What is it's city mpg, what are people seeing in the real world compared to volt owners that talk about filling up seasons apart.Now I'm 100% certain you didn't bother reading before responding. Either that or you can't hold a thought longer than that ADHD kid down the road. I've not said anything specifically or even particularly good about the CRUZE. The fact remains, it cost LESS THAN HALF what the VOLT costs, just in initial purchase. MUCH LESS, if you're remotely careful which model is chosen. Someone REALLY price conscious may just opt for a SONIC, which starts for nearly 3 times less than VOLT.

Since you didn't really pay attention, I'll inform you that my comparison there was PRICE, not just hwy economy. Hwy gasoline economy is part of driving the VOLT, however, and to that end, the CRUZE is better, as are probably 50 other available choices in America, ALL of which are likely to cost less initially.

By the way, once the VOLT goes into gasoline mode, it's not even close to that 90mpg rating you claimed. It's 37mpg at that point and there are a plethora of better choices for that.

People were saying the same things about the prius and they thought it's resale value would also be abysmal due to it's scary unkown hybrid technology, yet it has one of the best resale values of any car and goes over 200k miles without needing to replace it's battery packs or engine and drivetrain for that matter:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/04/autos/toyota_prius_battery_life/index.htm

Quoted from the article:WHAT "same things" are you thinking of here? I haven't seen anyone comment here as to the battery life of either the Prius OR the VOLT, aside from the life as in, how quickly it requires recharging. That said, let's NOT waste our time comparing a Chevrolet to a Toyota where longevity is concerned. Toyota wins that battle without taking a breath.

Of course, there is that little matter of RESALE you brought up... The 2002 Prius with 207,000 miles on it... worth about $3,600 with clean trade in. How about a 2002 ECHO with the same mileage??? $3,175. We can conclude from that REALITY, the Prius is worth about $425 more than the ECHO of the same year, with all options(same as Prius). Did the ECHO cost about $425 less than Prius when both were knew? LOL... of course not!

The 2002 Avalon is worth more than that Prius. Even the 2002 Camry BASE MODEL with ONLY aluminum wheels as an option is worth more.... 4 banger and all. A 2002 Honda Civic DX is worth nearly what the Prius gets...

One of the best resale values of any car????? TRY AGAIN! The only thing remotely making it a "best value" is that one can hope the batteries continue to last. However, just because 1 shining example was found, don't get too excited here. Most are probably in a junk yard somewhere, or have had the batteries replaced, at great expense.

I know right, what sort of sorcery...it's like saying:

"Hey, new air conditioner, it's getting a little cold in here, uh...just go ahead and stay on standby until EXACTLY that much and shut off again so as to not waste any Electricity which...IS...fuel until it's needed again!" :lol: The advertisements disagree with this scenario completely, hence the manual on/off button.There's no "ON/OFF button" available for a vehicle BEING DRIVEN! One CAN simply turn off the A/C and keep going till a stop for fuel. One CANNOT, however, shut off all power and do the same in any car. Thanks for playing... move along now.

Who? Millions of Americans who are SICK OF SPENDING! They don't need to spend that money and it's OUR money, not theirs, to spend! I'm tired of giving handouts, even to people in MEEEEEEESHIGAN! Build a better product... People will purchase it as they desire. End of story and it works. If you don't give a shit, it's PROBABLY because you're in that massive group who doesn't pay tax and for whatever sad reason, has no sense of responsibility regarding these things. You probably want a VOLT... so long as its free for you. :eyes:

One way or another. The government isn't going to lower taxes just because they made GM take the volt away. I pay taxes. But I've also came to realize. Their no better than the kids I go to college with. We have a program for our Community College if you graduate High School with a 2.5 GPA you can go to this college 2 years for free. 90% of the kids that go there get extra money for gas and such. They take the money and run. I see it every Semester. You don't think that pisses me off? The government is the same way. If their getting money from us already I'd rather it go to building a nice car such as the volt than them spending it on war and other countries... I'd love a volt. But im far from a 40k price tag. and I'll definetly stick with my SS

I'm not convinced you know which topic you're in yet! ;)

I never said there's anything bad about it, but I was responding to another... Perhaps you should've read what I was responding to, so you'd know that I was merely pointing out the simple reality, the car will need to burn gasoline after about 35miles, according to GM.


Your comment was a very simple direct assertion that the volt is only a good option for those that have less than a 35 mile commute all the time. The point of its hybrid system instead of being electric only is to be able to travel further when needed, to give the car an extended range beyond the battery packs capabilities. To go a few extra miles a day while keeping most of them electric is not bad in my humble opinion, it's still a great savings in terms of fuel costs. Say you go 45 miles a day, and the chevy realistically is only able to get 30 on electric, assuming you drive every weekday, your still going 150 miles a week on electric which as a previous poster pointed out is about 90mpg equivalent (yes I did read page 1, this thread is only 2 pages long Edit: Just hit the third page. And it was 94mpge given in the video).

Edit: My apologies, I did sort of miss the rest about if it's only being driven 35 miles then you suggest other cars. But below I go into real world figures and the world of difference the volt really has on those other cars.


Now I'm 100% certain you didn't bother reading before responding. Either that or you can't hold a thought longer than that ADHD kid down the road.


I'm sorry if I'm getting on your nerves, we just have a difference of opinion and sometimes I try to be clever with my replies. I'm not trying to offend you believe it or not. Just trying to point out through sarcasm here and there what I think is a little outrageous.


I've not said anything specifically or even particularly good about the CRUZE. The fact remains, it cost LESS THAN HALF what the VOLT costs, just in initial purchase. MUCH LESS, if you're remotely careful which model is chosen. Someone REALLY price conscious may just opt for a SONIC, which starts for nearly 3 times less than VOLT.

Since you didn't really pay attention, I'll inform you that my comparison there was PRICE, not just hwy economy. Hwy gasoline economy is part of driving the VOLT, however, and to that end, the CRUZE is better, as are probably 50 other available choices in America, ALL of which are likely to cost less initially.

By the way, once the VOLT goes into gasoline mode, it's not even close to that 90mpg rating you claimed. It's 37mpg at that point and there are a plethora of better choices for that.


The price is around 30k after incentives, and if you want to complain about the incentives, be fair and complain about the oil and gas subsidies too. Chevy sonic has an msrp of nearly 14k. Whats the point of these arguments? A range of different cars are more expensive than others, yet if you only consider getting from point a to point b, a chevy sonic or similar type car can be used to argue against any other car more expensive. Why are you singling out the volt, because of fuel economy? The volt is in another world if you compare fuel economy, why weren't you up in arms about the malibu or impala, it has closer fuel economy to the sonic, yet costs 7 to 10k more.

I think I've said enough in my previous posts on the highway mileage criticism. I don't care for a car that gets amazingly good highway miles or gets better gas mileage under water but gets the same normal city mileage as any other non-"eco" badged car. I'm interested in real world mileage, and people don't cruise in the real world at 40-50mph from start to finish.

Here are some real world average gas mileages people were seeing back in April 2011.

http://www.dailytech.com/GM+Chevy+Volt+Owners+Averaging+1000+Miles+Between+ Gas+Stops/article21457.htm

Some quotes from the article:
GM: Chevy Volt Owners Averaging 1,000 Miles Between Gas Stops

“Volt owners drove an average of 800 miles between fill-ups since the Volt launched in December, and in March they averaged 1,000 miles,” said Cristi Landy, Volt marketing director. “When the majority of miles driven are electrically, gas usage decreases significantly.”

When you consider that the Volt holds roughly nine gallons of fuel, the fact that GM claims the average Volt driver gets 800 miles between fill ups is even more impressive. That would work out to fuel economy in the area of 122 miles per gallon. Volt owners also note they only hit the gas station about once per month.

Another Volt owner, Gary Davis said, "On April 11, I had to buy gas for the first time since filling up on January 9. In my Volt I’ve driven 4,600 miles on 8.4 gallons of gas. That’s an impressive 547 mpg that I am achieving with my Volt."


So even those that don't travel only 35 miles or less with the car and still have to use fuel, still end up getting pretty good fuel mileage. But hey, in the end, it doesn't get 40+mpg highway right. Can't win em all.


WHAT "same things" are you thinking of here? I haven't seen anyone comment here as to the battery life of either the Prius OR the VOLT, aside from the life as in, how quickly it requires recharging. That said, let's NOT waste our time comparing a Chevrolet to a Toyota where longevity is concerned. Toyota wins that battle without taking a breath.


When the Prius came out getting 40mpg city, a ton of cars could already get 30+mpg highway costing less or similarly but offering more luxury and what ever else. These same arguments are what I was talking about. People said then that others would be stupid to buy a prius when there are better equipped more affordable cars out there with nearly identical "highway" mileage. And how do you know about it's longevity when it just came out. This is why I mentioned the Prius and people exclaiming the same thing 10 years ago for that car and it's supposed longevity.


Of course, there is that little matter of RESALE you brought up... The 2002 Prius with 207,000 miles on it... worth about $3,600 with clean trade in. How about a 2002 ECHO with the same mileage??? $3,175. We can conclude from that REALITY, the Prius is worth about $425 more than the ECHO of the same year, with all options(same as Prius). Did the ECHO cost about $425 less than Prius when both were knew? LOL... of course not!

The 2002 Avalon is worth more than that Prius. Even the 2002 Camry BASE MODEL with ONLY aluminum wheels as an option is worth more.... 4 banger and all. A 2002 Honda Civic DX is worth nearly what the Prius gets...


http://hartford.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=2002+prius&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=

A quick search on craigslist for 2002 prius models. How did you obtain your numbers?
Edit: http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.kelly_bluebook/8.html

Prius resale value is just fine, and the new ones look even better (I actually really don't like the look of the previous generations at all). No one cares about the resale value of a 200k+ mile car, that example was meant to show the reliability of this kind of technology even back then with the first generation when people had the same reservations as they currently do for the volt.

One of the best resale values of any car????? TRY AGAIN! The only thing remotely making it a "best value" is that one can hope the batteries continue to last. However, just because 1 shining example was found, don't get too excited here. Most are probably in a junk yard somewhere, or have had the batteries replaced, at great expense.


Yeah, I'm sure most "probably" are, you can keep telling yourself that.


There's no "ON/OFF button" available for a vehicle BEING DRIVEN! One CAN simply turn off the A/C and keep going till a stop for fuel. One CANNOT, however, shut off all power and do the same in any car. Thanks for playing... move along now.

I'm a computer science major and I can confidently say that you'd be surprised what a few algorithms can determine with the proper data being fed to them. Also, what do you really know about the engineering of this car? You seem like you can't stand the car, yet you want me and others to believe you know 100% of it's capabilities and limitations. But maybe the original poster of the comment will come back to elaborate.

Anyway, this is kind of exhausting and I think it's getting fruitless to continue (probably pointless from the start but oh well), so I'll read your next reply but I can't promise to continue this back and forth with you. Just trying to point out a few interesting things about the car that you and others might not have known or some misconceptions that may have swayed people against this car. My main gripe is the highway mileage figure, and using it to get the combined mpg figure just by subtracting half the difference from the epa's squeeky clean highway mileage that was simply tested on a dyno no less (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates). Real world driving doesn't work that way, it's so heavily skewed in favor of the automakers and against realistic real world averages it's ridiculous.

Hyundai's elantra advertised 24/40 so people were outraged they weren't seeing around 32 on average, yeah no shit! Because 24 city is nothing to brag about.

prius? in the last 7 years, i've sent 3 or 4 of their owners back to the dealer for batteries.

the volt doesn't(according to that video) go any farther on the highway than a regular cruze or focus.

where do these incentives come from?

I think they have 8 year 100k mile warranty ;) I'm sure other cars come back to dealerships with engine/powertrain issues every once in a while too.


where do these incentives come from?

Double standard?

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/
Estimates of the value of U.S. federal subsidies to the domestic oil and gas industry alone (not coal) range from “only” $4 billion a year, to an amazing $41 billion annually . One recent comprehensive study of U.S. energy subsidies (see graph below) identified $72.5 billion in federal subsidies for fossil fuels between 2002-2008 , or just over $10 billion annually. For more information on the range of subsidies, see below.

I think they have 8 year 100k mile warranty ;) I'm sure other cars come back to dealerships with engine/powertrain issues every once in a while too.



Double standard?

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

yea they do.....but not with a $5k battery pack that went bad.

lithium batteries average 5 to 7 year lifespans.

almost forgot.....i've LONG wanted the oil companies to stop getting tax breaks that the rest of us don't get, and have to make up for. either that, or i want the same tax breaks. :D

One way or another. The government isn't going to lower taxes just because they made GM take the volt away. I pay taxes. But I've also came to realize. Their no better than the kids I go to college with. We have a program for our Community College if you graduate High School with a 2.5 GPA you can go to this college 2 years for free. 90% of the kids that go there get extra money for gas and such. They take the money and run. I see it every Semester. You don't think that pisses me off? The government is the same way. If their getting money from us already I'd rather it go to building a nice car such as the volt than them spending it on war and other countries... I'd love a volt. But im far from a 40k price tag. and I'll definetly stick with my SSSince the Constitution allows for taxes to support our military efforts, I don't complain about them. That said, there's a real need to cut back on military spending as well. A car, however, isn't mentioned in that Constitution and I find it horrible, wretched even, that our gov't thinks it should play any role in that realm.

As for the VOLT, I don't think it's that nice a car. They hyped it nicely, but it looks pretty plain Jane when you're in one. I mean, it's no big changeover from any other brand new GM with the same options installed.

Your comment was a very simple direct assertion that the volt is only a good option for those that have less than a 35 mile commute all the time. The point of its hybrid system instead of being electric only is to be able to travel further when needed, to give the car an extended range beyond the battery packs capabilities. To go a few extra miles a day while keeping most of them electric is not bad in my humble opinion, it's still a great savings in terms of fuel costs. Say you go 45 miles a day, and the chevy realistically is only able to get 30 on electric, assuming you drive every weekday, your still going 150 miles a week on electric which as a previous poster pointed out is about 90mpg equivalent (yes I did read page 1, this thread is only 2 pages long Edit: Just hit the third page. And it was 94mpge given in the video).

Edit: My apologies, I did sort of miss the rest about if it's only being driven 35 miles then you suggest other cars. But below I go into real world figures and the world of difference the volt really has on those other cars.What IS the world of difference? I've been in a VOLT, and a CRUZE... Each is an automobile with 4 wheels, etc. I don't see any massive difference aside from the obvious.

I'm sorry if I'm getting on your nerves, we just have a difference of opinion and sometimes I try to be clever with my replies. I'm not trying to offend you believe it or not. Just trying to point out through sarcasm here and there what I think is a little outrageous.That's what I do and I think the VOLT is an outrageous rip off, since it's so overpriced.

The price is around 30k after incentives, and if you want to complain about the incentives, be fair and complain about the oil and gas subsidies too.The "oil and gas" subsidies are QUITE different... The money they're "getting" is ALREADY THEIR MONEY! The "subsidies" are merely less paid in taxes, not money put in their pocket which they didn't already earn.

No, the price after incentives is NOT "around 30k" unless 34k is "around 30k" to you. $31,645 doesn't include tax, etc. VOLT starts around 40k... Then there's the POSSIBILITY that one may qualify for all incentives... MOST do not! Even if you do, and get it... you're still spending well over 30k and for that cost, you could probably choose any two CRUZE models at which ever dealership you frequent.

Chevy sonic has an msrp of nearly 14k. Whats the point of these arguments?Simply to show how outrageously priced the VOLT is in comparison to many other cars.

A range of different cars are more expensive than others, yet if you only consider getting from point a to point b, a chevy sonic or similar type car can be used to argue against any other car more expensive.Many others can also, but not the VOLT. Too expensive, period.

Why are you singling out the volt, because of fuel economy? The volt is in another world if you compare fuel economy, why weren't you up in arms about the malibu or impala, it has closer fuel economy to the sonic, yet costs 7 to 10k more.Not fuel economy, PRICE! The ads suggest this car is a viable option in any case, when in fact it is likely more expensive than MOST cars sold today.

The Malibu or Impala don't come with tax breaks, so...

Here are some real world average gas mileages people were seeing back in April 2011.

http://www.dailytech.com/GM+Chevy+Volt+Owners+Averaging+1000+Miles+Between+ Gas+Stops/article21457.htm

Some quotes from the article:Did you happen to notice the photo in the article? It shows a charging station with a VOLT plugged in, apparently charging. How many people have charging stations at work? That's how many get this extraordinary economy, along with retirees who sit home.


When the Prius came out getting 40mpg city, a ton of cars could already get 30+mpg highway costing less or similarly but offering more luxury and what ever else.Prius "came out" in the USA "In the year 2000" as a 2001 model. Net combined economy was 41mpg, 42city, 41hwy, according to the EPA(and that's in 2008+ standards). In 2000, the starting MSRP was $19,995.00 ... not all that much, frankly. Name us some more luxurious cars which cost less.

These same arguments are what I was talking about. People said then that others would be stupid to buy a prius when there are better equipped more affordable cars out there with nearly identical "highway" mileage.Many of us still think you'd be foolish to buy a Prius.

And how do you know about it's longevity when it just came out.Chevrolet just came out, or Toyota just came out???

This is why I mentioned the Prius and people exclaiming the same thing 10 years ago for that car and it's supposed longevity.Toyota quality is HIGHLY regarded. GM quality is not. That's just the simple truth of the matter.

http://hartford.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=2002+prius&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=

A quick search on craigslist for 2002 prius models. How did you obtain your numbers?
Edit: http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.kelly_bluebook/8.htmlWell pardon me for not thinking of using CRAIGSLIST or cnn to gather the value of an automobile... I, instead, went to this new-fangled idea called N.A.D.A. for my information... :eyes: http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2002/Toyota/Prius-4-Cyl/Sedan-4D/Standard-Equipment

Prius resale value is just fine, and the new ones look even better (I actually really don't like the look of the previous generations at all). No one cares about the resale value of a 200k+ mile car, that example was meant to show the reliability of this kind of technology even back then with the first generation when people had the same reservations as they currently do for the volt.I fully understand you trying to shape the debate to help yourself, but you're the one who tried bragging on the 2002 model, so I looked up the actual value after you claimed it's near or at the top... NO, it really isn't.

Yeah, I'm sure most "probably" are, you can keep telling yourself that.I can keep telling you that too, and until/unless you can prove otherwise, it won't matter that you hold a different opinion.

I'm a computer science major and I can confidently say that you'd be surprised what a few algorithms can determine with the proper data being fed to them.Algorithms being a step by step problem solving procedure, one might expect the "data fed" to be a question of sorts, not manipulated changing material.

Also, what do you really know about the engineering of this car? You seem like you can't stand the car, yet you want me and others to believe you know 100% of it's capabilities and limitations. But maybe the original poster of the comment will come back to elaborate.You mean the VOLT? Why would ANYONE need to know about the engineering any car to dislike it???? That's about as logical as asking why 1 mans junk is another mans treasure... It just is what it is. Nobody needs to know a thing about the engineering of another thing, simply to be able to dislike that other thing.

It's not that I can't stand it, although I see it for what it is, an over-hyped, under-performing, highly over-priced car. CLEARLY, millions of Americans agree with me on at least some part of this, considering only about 1500 folks have yet been suckered into buying one and many of those are fleet vehicles.

Anyway, this is kind of exhausting and I think it's getting fruitless to continue (probably pointless from the start but oh well), so I'll read your next reply but I can't promise to continue this back and forth with you. Just trying to point out a few interesting things about the car that you and others might not have known or some misconceptions that may have swayed people against this car.Did you are are you planning to buy one yourself? I agree it's pointless to go on. I don't like the car and 99.99% of those who do, aren't buying one. Problem(for the car) is, 100% of those who don't like it are also not buying it. Thus, it's essentially a failure and sadly, the American tax payer is covering the cost.

American tax payer is covering the cost.

The rebate program is peanuts compared to the money the oil industry gets in subsidies. We won't even mention the tremendous cost of fuel itself.

Anyone who argues against actively promoting these vehicles is just plain closed minded. Look around at the cost of fuel, the wars over oil and the constantly increasing level of global pollution. It is time. The time is now.

:|
Did you happen to notice the photo in the article? It shows a charging station with a VOLT plugged in, apparently charging. How many people have charging stations at work? That's how many get this extraordinary economy, along with retirees who sit home.

Wow, I don't even...having access to charging at home means they either have to charge at work or are retirees living at home? Either one or the other huh, no in between? This is cracking me up.

You're such a hero for the oil and gas industry, they have us by the balls and can squeeze when ever they'd like but I'm sure they appreciate having people like you around. They make a trillion in profit but your happy to pay their portion of taxes and the research and development grants we give them (surely they need all the help they can get).

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/02/08/421061/big-oil-higher-prices-record-profits-less-oil/
Here are some more highlights from the big five’s activities in 2011:
They produced 4 percent less oil and “oil equivalent” in 2011 compared to 2010.
They spent a total of $38 billion, or 28 percent, of their profits to repurchase their own stock.
They are sitting on more than $58 billion in cash reserves as of the end of 2011.
They spent $1.6 million on campaign contributions and $65.7 million on lobbying efforts .
For every $1 spent on lobbying in Washington, the big five received $30 worth of tax breaks.

Keep up the great work.

Edit: Well, on a more related note http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/05/chevy-volt-and-opel-ampera-named-2012-european-car-of-the-year/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/03/01-opel-ampera-geneva-opt.jpg
While Europe was never envisioned as the prime market for the Volt/Ampera, GM says it already has 7,000 orders for the Ampera and that the company expects to hit its target of 10,000 sales this year.

The rebate program is peanuts compared to the money the oil industry gets in subsidies. We won't even mention the tremendous cost of fuel itself.We shouldn't mention the cost of fuel. Anyone interested already knows. Besides... Pointing to 1 problem and saying, "This one's okay because there's THAT one!" is childish nonsense. Both are problems, but they are completely separate issues! That said, the oil subsidies ARE different... What they "get" is a BREAK, not CASH. The money they "get" is already THEIRS! They earned it, period. This nonsense with the VOLT is money HANDED, never earned!

Anyone who argues against actively promoting these vehicles is just plain closed minded.That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but not everyone sees things as you do, nor will they, ever. You start driving a VOLT around and promoting it and MAYBE others will see your point.

Look around at the cost of fuel, the wars over oil and the constantly increasing level of global pollution. It is time. The time is now.If it's time NOW, where's YOUR VOLT??? Why don't you sell your Skylark and buy something that gets EVEN DECENT fuel economy??? How about swapping those drag race gears for a set more friendly to your beloved environment.

Being a fear monger isn't helpful either. If you're worried about global pollution, tear your car apart and NEVER rebuild it because, after all, it's a polluter! All that man-made global warming crap is precisely that, CRAP! Lies that even the perpetrators have now largely admitted to making up.

There are 3 major reasons our fuel prices are up, NOT including the MASSIVE amount tacked on for taxes... #1, speculation. #2, turmoil in the middle east, specifically in and around Iran. #3, the LACK of our own supply being used.

The VOLT isn't really helpful in any respect. First, it DOES require FOSSIL fuels. Last I checked, oil based lubricants still get used, even on electric vehicles. Not to mention its gasoline burning engine. Next, there are hardly enough available, even IF the masses wanted the thing. Next, for the 100,000 people who DO want one, it's apparently out of the price range of nearly all of those people. Otherwise, why would sales be so dismal?

So go ahead and hype up the vehicle you're NOT actually buying yourself and tell people that if they don't promote it, they're closed minded... Idonno about the rest, but *I* personally don't care if that's your opinion or not. I'm not buying a car *I* don't want and I won't recommend anyone else do that either.

We shouldn't mention the cost of fuel. Anyone interested already knows. Besides... Pointing to 1 problem and saying, "This one's okay because there's THAT one!" is childish nonsense. Both are problems, but they are completely separate issues! That said, the oil subsidies ARE different... What they "get" is a BREAK, not CASH. The money they "get" is already THEIRS! They earned it, period. This nonsense with the VOLT is money HANDED, never earned!



It's a tax write off, a tax refund. Mitt Romney pays 15% in taxes, he writes off millions, god forbid the average person has something to write off to help get the country off foreign oil. You say yourself, you have to pay over 30k to get this "discount." The government hands out enough money I'm surprised this is the one thing of all things your fired up about. There are companies that didn't pay a penny in taxes and actually made money from them.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/11/03/360185/30-corporations-no-taxes/
30 Major Corporations Paid No Income Taxes In The Last Three Years, While Making $160 Billion

These are exciting times, technology is actually moving forward again and people have more choices. Why do you loath these cars so much? They'll only help in bringing down the cost of gas since they'll finally have some competition for once. This isn't the smoke and mirrors the oil and gas industry tried to sell us with Bush in the form of Hydrogen Hummers that they never had an inclining of interest in actually making a viable option.

:|


Wow, I don't even...having access to charging at home means they either have to charge at work or are retirees living at home? Either one or the other huh, no in between? This is cracking me up.Once again, straight over your head... Lemme make it a bit easier... One doesn't simply STOP BY A SERVICE STATION in ones VOLT, for a fill up of electricity! The ONLY reason people can get such great economy AND drive more than 35miles round trip is to have a CHARGING STATION. Otherwise, it REQUIRES fossil fuel.

You're such a hero for the oil and gas industry, they have us by the balls and can squeeze when ever they'd like but I'm sure they appreciate having people like you around.You think they like having people like me around, try considering how much they like people like you... The ones who BITCH ALL DAY about things they're not about to change on their own. For example... Which do you own, a VOLT or a LEAF? Neither? Imagine that... YOU are another person the oil industry likes having around! How far can EITHER the VOLT or the LEAF go without OIL companies??? ZERO miles!

They make a trillion in profit but your happy to pay their portion of taxes and the research and development grants we give them (surely they need all the help they can get).I'm WISE enough to understand the topics whereas you're jumbling things together in a frenzy. 1st, you MUST separate the oil and gas industry from the VOLT, in your own mind, or you've concluded CORRECTLY that the VOLT requires oil/gas... You don't want that mindset, but it's true.

As for "paying their portion of taxes and the research and development," you've got 1/2 of this WRONG... Foremost, regardless WHAT you might think in that terribly inexperienced mind, the consumer ALWAYS pays the taxes... ALWAYS... 100% of the time, bar NONE... ALWAYS! "How's that," you wonder? That's because NO MATTER what the item cost, or how much GOVERNMENT raises taxes, the supplier/manufacturer simply PASSES ALONG any and all taxes. That's called "a business model" and you'll learn about it to some degree before you graduate college. Why do you suppose we pay so much for gasoline now??? Among other reasons, TAXES! About .20 of each gallon is federal tax. Most states add more of their own and some counties, cities, etc. add theirs in, all of which drive up the price and NONE of which will be paid by the fuel maker.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/02/08/421061/big-oil-higher-prices-record-profits-less-oil/


Keep up the great work.I don't waste my time trying to "learn" what the "progressive left" is teaching these days. It might help you to seek more truth, by the way. You're NOT getting the full truth from any org. such as the 1 you've linked here.

Edit: Well, on a more related note http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/05/chevy-volt-and-opel-ampera-named-2012-european-car-of-the-year/Then surely their 1,300 US workers will be back at it soo.... oh wait. :(

They MAY sell 10,000 this year... They PLANNED to sell some 10,000 LAST year... till the year began and people bought other stuff instead. Now they MIGHT sell 1/6th of their original projection... YAY GM! :eyes:

It's a tax write off, a tax refund. Mitt Romney pays 15% in taxes, he writes off millions, god forbid the average person has something to write off to help get the country off foreign oil. You say yourself, you have to pay over 30k to get this "discount." The government hands out enough money I'm surprised this is the one thing of all things your fired up about. There are companies that didn't pay a penny in taxes and actually made money from them.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/11/03/360185/30-corporations-no-taxes/


These are exciting times, technology is actually moving forward again and people have more choices. Why do you loath these cars so much? They'll only help in bringing down the cost of gas since they'll finally have some competition for once. This isn't the smoke and mirrors the oil and gas industry tried to sell us with Bush in the form of Hydrogen Hummers that they never had an inclining of interest in actually making a viable option.
Take your LEFT WING LUNATIC HIGH HORSE WITH YOU... AS YOU LEAVE! We're NOT having that debate here. I was "kind enough" to answer you once already. I will NOT continue(we're not allowed) having an adult debate with a rather clueless STUDENT, the likes of which wasn't even born when I began voting and paying attention to politics. You're lost, but get lost again... on a political forum somewhere, with a bunch of like-minded brainwashed 20 somethings who sadly had to grow up being taught incorrectly and are now so full of nonsense they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground about these matters... Good luck.

PS, Mitt Romney, though I don't actually like the guy, probably DONATED more in the last year than you'll EARN in the next 10, combined! He pays a lower rate because was ALREADY TAXED at 35% when he earned the money. Get a damned clue already... But do it elsewhere.

As for "paying their portion of taxes and the research and development," you've got 1/2 of this WRONG... Foremost, regardless WHAT you might think in that terribly inexperienced mind, the consumer ALWAYS pays the taxes... ALWAYS... 100% of the time, bar NONE... ALWAYS! "How's that," you wonder? That's because NO MATTER what the item cost, or how much GOVERNMENT raises taxes, the supplier/manufacturer simply PASSES ALONG any and all taxes. That's called "a business model" and you'll learn about it to some degree before you graduate college. Why do you suppose we pay so much for gasoline now??? Among other reasons, TAXES! About .20 of each gallon is federal tax. Most states add more of their own and some counties, cities, etc. add theirs in, all of which drive up the price and NONE of which will be paid by the fuel maker.


That's really interesting because oil and subsequently gas has been going up and down daily with no change in taxes, no change in consumption. One month they are closing in on $5, the next they're just over $1. Why didn't they pass their losses along to the consumer then? Something fishy going on there...it's too bad because our roads and bridges are an embarrassment for a country of our stature with the level of achievement we once had in our highway and transportation system.

You say taxes will only bring the cost back to us, but what happens when Europe shows signs of decline and back down it goes, or the economy is growing and speculators bring up the price of oil again, or Iran makes a sneeze and everyone runs for the oil markets. We're fucked no matter what we do, damned if you do, damned if you don't, but you say the only choice is to open up more of our meager supplies that won't put a dent on anything. Say we finally get more refineries up and running that the oil companies actually don't shut down to fuck with the markets, ok years later it's all set to go, Iran makes another sneeze, back up it goes...well that went according to plan. Some alternative isn't even an option to you is it? If your eating something that's bothering your stomach, you wouldn't consider an alternative for a little? Oil prices have skyrocketed since the 90's and are only getting worse until it brings down the economy again.

Do you honestly think that more drilling will get us anywhere? We have hardly a fraction of oil reserves compared to what we use, and our usage is only growing. How could it possibly get us anywhere? Is that really your solution? Do you even remember what gas used to cost in the late 90's?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1999_Nov_19/ai_57645378/
HOUSTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 19, 1999--

The average price of self-serve regular unleaded gasoline dropped 3 cents since October, according to a AAA Texas survey. The current Texas statewide average price of a gallon of self-serve regular unleaded is $1.188.

The average price four weeks ago was $1.215.

And by the way, the links I've quoted are mostly quick searches from google, one of the first few links on the first page that I randomly click on. Just trying to provide some references to my arguments, they're by no means sites I frequent daily or even ever before really besides autoblog.

Take your LEFT WING LUNATIC HIGH HORSE WITH YOU... AS YOU LEAVE! We're NOT having that debate here. I was "kind enough" to answer you once already. I will NOT continue(we're not allowed) having an adult debate with a rather clueless STUDENT, the likes of which wasn't even born when I began voting and paying attention to politics. You're lost, but get lost again... on a political forum somewhere, with a bunch of like-minded brainwashed 20 somethings who sadly had to grow up being taught incorrectly and are now so full of nonsense they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground about these matters... Good luck.

PS, Mitt Romney, though I don't actually like the guy, probably DONATED more in the last year than you'll EARN in the next 10, combined! He pays a lower rate because was ALREADY TAXED at 35% when he earned the money. Get a damned clue already... But do it elsewhere.

You need to grow up already. The world isn't only filled with left wing lunatics or right wing extremists. People actually have a mind of their own and don't conform to the labels they've brainwashed you into believing. The volt always tends to become as much a political topic as any other, but just because I support the technology and mention people and/or companies that pay no taxes to prove a point makes me a left wing lunatic? Because we disagree? Right/left, your just an angry guy hiding behind political stereotypes, using caps in every other sentence because if you type something bold enough it must be fact. I knew you'd snap and throw a hissy fit any moment now. I was a fool to give you the benefit of the doubt thinking we could have a somewhat adult discussion/debate on the topic at hand without spazzing out into a political witchhunt. Whatever though, was only three pages so it didn't get too out of hand.

Edit: In an effort to steer this back on topic, but (and this is just a badly timed coincidence, latest news today) this might piss you off so I hope you've taken a moment to cool down. http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/07/white-house-annouces-4-7b-effort-for-advanced-technology-vehicl/

It's a big week for compressed natural gas vehicles, thanks to President Obama's announcement today that his administration wants to increase federal support for CNG automobiles by introducing a tax credit similar to the one in place for plug-in vehicles. Plug-in vehicles, too, could get a big boost – and a double-whammy at that – with the current tax credit exchanged for a point-of-sale rebate and an increase in the maximum value from $7,500 to $10,000. The President made the announcement today at a Daimler Trucks North America plant in North Carolina.

It's relevant.

I'm WISE enough to understand the topics whereas you're jumbling things together in a frenzy. 1st, you MUST separate the oil and gas industry from the VOLT, in your own mind, or you've concluded CORRECTLY that the VOLT requires oil/gas... You don't want that mindset, but it's true.


No, you're not wise, you're extremely biased and closed minded. Using capslock on your arguments doesn't make them factually correct.

And that last sentence...seriously https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQol_SNPm7362IxFP6mqMbtBQd0mSE2O dPWDu485nJylHIo0lwZBA

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/05/chevy-volt-and-opel-ampera-named-2012-european-car-of-the-year/

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/03/01-opel-ampera-geneva-opt.jpg

I like the styling of the Ampera better. GM made the Volt look too generic. The car is an exciting quantum leap into the future. It should have an great look like the Ampera.

I like the styling of the Ampera better. GM made the Volt look too generic. The car is an exciting quantum leap into the future. It should have an great look like the Ampera.

I said the same thing the first time I saw it. I can't understand why they made the U.S version so bland. This one looks so much better and just shows it's true potential.

Edit: I actually just went onto their website and contacted them about this. This was my e-mail to them:

I just wanted to ask why the European version of the Volt looks so much better than ours. http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2012/03/01-opel-ampera-geneva-opt.jpg

The Opel Ampera looks incredible while ours looks so bland and meager. The ampera shows the cars true potential, it's stunning and looks the part to fit that price range, while ours looks...well it's tough to make out what to think of it. It has such a bland and boring front end, where-as the Ampara is aggressive and elegant at the same time. The Volt makes one scratch their head looking at it, the Ampara gives one envy and even a hint of craving to become successful enough to feel like you've earned such a nice piece of automotive machinery. Please do something about the styling of the volt, I am very interested in this car and it's technology but I am on the ropes about whether it is worth it to buy now or wait and one of the biggest reason is styling. The Volts look like first gen. trial runs, like the first generation Prius. The Ampara on the other hand shows it's true potential, like the current generation prius, it shows it can blend in and make you want to show it off and not just use it to conserve energy. Please go back to the drawing board and give the car some desperately needed styling like the Ampara has, or hell just give us the Ampara.

I actually think it looks a million times better than the first gen. Prius, but I know that's their competition who they are trying to take sales from so I thought that would help make the point. It's not nearly as bad as the Prius was in terms of styling, but it still looks like a first gen. trial run where-as the Ampara looks like the iteration of the car after successful generations down the line.

Why do you loath these cars so much? They'll only help in bringing down the cost of gas since they'll finally have some competition for once. making a .

first off....sorry to cut up your post.

the part i left couldn't be more wrong.

as gas usage drops, the retailers will NEED to raise their price in order to cover their expenses. if they sell less, then they need a bigger profit.
as gas usage drops, both state and federal taxes will go up on this gas, as they need to keep their money stream in order to maintain the roads. speculators and traders aren't the only reasons that gas is so expensive right now.

first off....sorry to cut up your post.

the part i left couldn't be more wrong.

as gas usage drops, the retailers will NEED to raise their price in order to cover their expenses. if they sell less, then they need a bigger profit.
as gas usage drops, both state and federal taxes will go up on this gas, as they need to keep their money stream in order to maintain the roads. speculators and traders aren't the only reasons that gas is so expensive right now.

But the sad thing is they are the biggest contributors. It's publicly traded on the commodities stock exchange and this has the biggest effect by far over any other. Not more than a few years ago it fell to what it was in the late 90's and then as the economy worked it's way back it steadily rose back to the same levels as 2008. Realistically, without more fuel efficient vehicles for daily commutes, and with our growing population including India and China transitioning towards Automobiles to the point where our own manufacturers were making more money there selling cars than here at one point thanks to their growing demand, and lastly with oil supply diminishing where it's getting more costly to find and drill oil than it once was, putting environmental arguments aside, there is a strong economic case to be made. I want to have a fun car that I can enjoy on weekends and when ever I want without it eating me up inside from the cost of using it to daily commute with todays prices and the prices to come. This isn't left wing lunatic or right wing conservative talk, this is straight talk. The other guys right though, I am a student and I'm getting really carried away here with all these posts, it's just a discussion I've always wanted to try and have with some hard lined opinionated people.

Edit: My main point was that the gas retailers couldn't raise the price even if they wanted to. Most make their real money or real bread and butter from their food products and other items. They only wish people had enough money these days to stop in and buy more things from their store while they fill up. It was killing their business and so many had to shut down when prices were as high as ever.

as gas usage drops, the retailers will NEED to raise their price in order to cover their expenses. if they sell less, then they need a bigger profit.

This cracks me up. Not that there is not some layer of truth to it, but because it is the absolute opposite argument of supply and demand. It is a politicians dream: "The price is going up because the supply is so high". Then next they can say: "The price is going up because demand is down" LMAO! WTF?

But the sad thing is they are the biggest contributors. It's publicly traded on the commodities stock exchange and this has the biggest effect by far over any other. Not more than a few years ago it fell to what it was in the late 90's and then as the economy worked it's way back it steadily rose back to the same levels as 2008. Realistically, without more fuel efficient vehicles for daily commutes, and with our growing population including India and China transitioning towards Automobiles to the point where our own manufacturers were making more money there selling cars than here at one point thanks to their growing demand, and lastly with oil supply diminishing where it's getting more costly to find and drill oil than it once was, putting environmental arguments aside, there is a strong economic case to be made. I want to have a fun car that I can enjoy on weekends and when ever I want without it eating me up inside from the cost of using it to daily commute with todays prices and the prices to come. This isn't left wing lunatic or right wing conservative talk, this is straight talk. The other guys right though, I am a student and I'm getting really carried away here with all these posts, it's just a discussion I've always wanted to try and have with some hard lined opinionated people.

THIS i do agree with. it should be taken off the market, and let supply and demand dictate prices, as with other things. i think you, or someone else already said that though.
i was just discussing that with a customer the other day......if it were taken off the trading markets tomorrow, then by the middle of summer, gas would be below $2/gallon, the economy would be thriving, jobs would be coming back, and things would be good. or getting good very quickly.

This cracks me up. Not that there is not some layer of truth to it, but because it is the absolute opposite argument of supply and demand. It is a politicians dream: "The price is going up because the supply is so high". Then next they can say: "The price is going up because demand is down" LMAO! WTF?

well...what happens when those gas stations that move 8,000 gallons a day now only move 5,000 gallons a day? and their taxes go up? and their property costs remain the same, or go up?

THIS i do agree with. it should be taken off the market, and let supply and demand dictate prices, as with other things. i think you, or someone else already said that though.
i was just discussing that with a customer the other day......if it were taken off the trading markets tomorrow, then by the middle of summer, gas would be below $2/gallon, the economy would be thriving, jobs would be coming back, and things would be good. or getting good very quickly.

Because it is what it is though, the best option we have is more choices. It's not that everyone has to drive a fuel efficient vehicle, but it's that if there are real viable options out there, it gives us some control over the matter. If prices skyrocket in the markets, we have a choice we can make, rather than being stuck with only around 20mpg vehicles in the city. This is why I ask, whats the bad that can come of this, even for you? To have the option with this hybrid technology whether it be plug in or not, to continue being able to drive full sized vehicles that we're used to and not have to resort to a tin can if someone is feeling the squeeze financially and has to make necessary adjustments to get by. Enjoy what you have, but it's nice to know that the oil and gas markets have that much less control over you, and you have choices if you need it.

Edit: I wish we could say we have a choice with decent public transit but that just isn't the case in most parts of the U.S.

well...what happens when those gas stations that move 8,000 gallons a day now only move 5,000 gallons a day? and their taxes go up? and their property costs remain the same, or go up?

The thing is that has close to nothing to do with gas prices.

First, gas stations are independently owned. They are not owned by the oil companies. They have next to no impact on gas prices. Their take on a gallon of gas is just a few pennies. Gas station rely heavily on selling things in their store for profit. The gas is almost a loss leader. If a gas station get more than a few pennies higher than their competition, they get real lonely real fast. When that happens their convenience store doesn't sell anything. Gas station owners have it rough my friend.

Gas prices are set by the big boys. The markets determine gas prices and it is a twisted mess. They would like you to believe that it is all random and reactionary, but it is far from it. The oil companies and financial industry has huge control over inventory reports, production reports and even what the media reports. It is a big boys club full of collusion and corruption. They show us what they want to and then set the prices wherever they need them to be. They play us like a fiddle and we dance to the tune.

Do I like my gas burning hotrod? Hell yes. But, big oil can kiss my backside. I would race an electric car and enjoy it no problem.

The thing is that has close to nothing to do with gas prices.

First, gas stations are independently owned. They are not owned by the oil companies. They have next to no impact on gas prices. Their take on a gallon of gas is just a few pennies. Gas station rely heavily on selling things in their store for profit. The gas is almost a loss leader. If a gas station get more than a few pennies higher than their competition, they get real lonely real fast. When that happens their convenience store doesn't sell anything. Gas station owners have it rough my friend.

Gas prices are set by the big boys. The markets determine gas prices and it is a twisted mess. They would like you to believe that it is all random and reactionary, but it is far from it. The oil companies and financial industry has huge control over inventory reports, production reports and even what the media reports. It is a big boys club full of collusion and corruption. They show us what they want to and then set the prices wherever they need them to be. They play us like a fiddle and we dance to the tune.

Do I like my gas burning hotrod? Hell yes. But, big oil can kiss my backside. I would race an electric car and enjoy it no problem.

It's nice to see level headed people in this hobby. Your Skylark is badass and I'm really enjoying the build thread and the gorgeous pictures you've shared. Thanks for sharing, very nice car you have!

The thing is that has close to nothing to do with gas prices.

First, gas stations are independently owned.i know this. so it comes back to what are you as that station owner going to do to cover your costs, when you go from pumping 8k gallons a day to 5k gallons a day? They are not owned by the oil companies. They have next to no impact on gas prices. Their take on a gallon of gas is just a few pennies. Gas station rely heavily on selling things in their store for profit. The gas is almost a loss leader. If a gas station get more than a few pennies higher than their competition, they get real lonely real fast. When that happens their convenience store doesn't sell anything. Gas station owners have it rough my friend.again, i know all of this. there's also "zone pricing" which i was just talking about to the mechanic across the street. he's working at a shell station. their price per gallon is more than what my landlord sells it to the customer for. yet less than 5 miles away, there's a shell station that gets their gas for 15 cents less than he does.

Gas prices are set by the big boys. The markets determine gas prices and it is a twisted mess. They would like you to believe that it is all random and reactionary, but it is far from it. The oil companies and financial industry has huge control over inventory reports, production reports and even what the media reports. It is a big boys club full of collusion and corruption. They show us what they want to and then set the prices wherever they need them to be. They play us like a fiddle and we dance to the tune.

Do I like my gas burning hotrod? Hell yes. But, big oil can kiss my backside. I would race an electric car and enjoy it no problem.

the last part is why i say to remove oil from the markets. they'll not be able to continue keeping the prices up. a

also figure....i think oil is 105/barrel right now? 6 years ago when it was that price, we were payng less than 2/gallon.

the last part is why i say to remove oil from the markets.

As soon as you become world dictator you can make that happen. LOL

Back on the reality side, people just need other solutions. Having a choice and making other choices will free people of the strangle hold that oil companies have over us.

These hammerheads who get so angry arguing that more oil is the solution must have Stockholm Syndrome.

THIS i do agree with. it should be taken off the market, and let supply and demand dictate prices, as with other things. i think you, or someone else already said that though.
i was just discussing that with a customer the other day......if it were taken off the trading markets tomorrow, then by the middle of summer, gas would be below $2/gallon, the economy would be thriving, jobs would be coming back, and things would be good. or getting good very quickly.

I think if this were to happen, OPEC would find a way to still get the prices to where they want them to be.

I think if this were to happen, OPEC would find a way to still get the prices to where they want them to be.

If there was no free market, they would not have to find a way. They would just say the price and that's what it would be. They would not have to waste time with the dog and pony show. LOL

If there was no free market, they would not have to find a way. They would just say the price and that's what it would be. They would not have to waste time with the dog and pony show. LOL

I have my reservations on the free market system and whether it's good or not if it were truly free, but that's a good and ironic point. And they're so good at the dog and pony show, I actually enjoy their commercials even though I see right through them. They're good at what they do, have just the right lighting and the right concerned touch to them, lol.

This cracks me up. Not that there is not some layer of truth to it, but because it is the absolute opposite argument of supply and demand. It is a politicians dream: "The price is going up because the supply is so high". Then next they can say: "The price is going up because demand is down" LMAO! WTF?
There was this funny text on the internet, it's in german, but it went sort a like this:

Two Oil corporations are merging. The gas price goes up.
Because the merger shows that one single company cannot survive on this market.
Two Oil Corporations are not merging. The gas price goes up.
The Government refuses the merger, which could had rationalised(sp?) some parts of the company. The consequences have to be paid by the consumer


The depots are empty. The gas price goes up.
Empty depots cost money, which now have to paid by the customer.
The depots are full. The gas price goes up.
Big, full depots are not good for profit. And it is a huge part of the national reserve, so it is only expected that the customer hepls paying them.

etc etc

That's really interesting because oil and subsequently gas has been going up and down daily with no change in taxes, no change in consumption.Taxes don't have to be changed on oil in order for oil prices to rise. Whatever told you that has no sense of reality. There has, however, indeed been a change in consumption. It's a warm winter and therefore, current consumption is DOWN. We're also getting more efficient vehicles, lowering demand. Of course, the world market is much different, but you can't understand the American market, so I'm not interested in trying to explain the global market. You've been "trained" incorrectly throughout your years in school, so I don't expect you to know the realities anyway.

One month they are closing in on $5, the next they're just over $1.What are you trying to describe here?

That's enough... You're clueless and no amount of help here is going to fix that problem. In time, you'll see. At this point in time, you simply lack the experience AND the memories to be explaining things to me. I, for example, DO remember gasoline prices throughout the 1990's... I'm rather certain you weren't even born until the 1990's... I remember prices in the 70's, for that matter. As I said, you're clueless here.

Taxes don't have to be changed on oil in order for oil prices to rise. Whatever told you that has no sense of reality. There has, however, indeed been a change in consumption. It's a warm winter and therefore, current consumption is DOWN. We're also getting more efficient vehicles, lowering demand. Of course, the world market is much different, but you can't understand the American market, so I'm not interested in trying to explain the global market. You've been "trained" incorrectly throughout your years in school, so I don't expect you to know the realities anyway.

What are you trying to describe here?

That's enough... You're clueless and no amount of help here is going to fix that problem. In time, you'll see. At this point in time, you simply lack the experience AND the memories to be explaining things to me. I, for example, DO remember gasoline prices throughout the 1990's... I'm rather certain you weren't even born until the 1990's... I remember prices in the 70's, for that matter. As I said, you're clueless here.

First of all, you pointed out the exact same thing I pointed out, and then turned it around on me saying I've been trained "incorrectly." I'm shocked, really. And then the second part, your so stubborn and full of yourself it's comical, mildly irritating but you're entitled to your strong opinion. If it makes you feel any better or worse, I was born in 85. I don't know what times you've lived through and what you've "been taught" but I know there are others your age that know better and don't proclaim to be so wise beyond their years every chance they get. Looking at the first few pages of this thread, I noticed a lot of people disagreed with your opinion, but you were the most vocal, do you believe every one of them isn't as old or as young as you?

Edit: Since you took my first sentence out of context, to clear up what I meant; when the market is volatile, there is no real change in consumption between a day or two to warrant such changes in prices, it's just speculation. One day they hear news Europe is going to pull through, so they put more money in oil thinking the recovery will get people driving again. The next there is a stall on progress because they can't agree to the proper wording of this or that negotiation and investors or rather speculators pull out and back down it goes. There wasn't a real substantive change in supply and demand there, yet that fluctuation may have been enough to change gas prices for those few days. That, coupled with the fact that I have to pay for every new epiphany these speculators have about the direction of oil prices every other day, as they're playing with our money with nothing substantive to loose, is more irritating to me than you'll ever be, but I applaud you for trying :eyes:.

First of all, you pointed out the exact same thing I pointed out, and then turned it around on me saying I've been trained "incorrectly." I'm shocked, really. And then the second part, your so stubborn and full of yourself it's comical, mildly irritating but you're entitled to your strong opinion. If it makes you feel any better or worse, I was born in 85. I don't know what times you've lived through and what you've "been taught" but I know there are others your age that know better and don't proclaim to be so wise beyond their years every chance they get. Looking at the first few pages of this thread, I noticed a lot of people disagreed with your opinion, but you were the most vocal, do you believe every one of them isn't as old or as young as you?

Edit: Since you took my first sentence out of context, to clear up what I meant; when the market is volatile, there is no real change in consumption between a day or two to warrant such changes in prices, it's just speculation. One day they hear news Europe is going to pull through, so they put more money in oil thinking the recovery will get people driving again. The next there is a stall on progress because they can't agree to the proper wording of this or that negotiation and investors or rather speculators pull out and back down it goes. There wasn't a real substantive change in supply and demand there, yet that fluctuation may have been enough to change gas prices for those few days. That, coupled with the fact that I have to pay for every new epiphany these speculators have about the direction of oil prices every other day, as they're playing with our money with nothing substantive to loose, is more irritating to me than you'll ever be, but I applaud you for trying :eyes:.I didn't point out what you pointed out. I gave the reason it didn't matter what you said.

If your "explanation" is what you meant the 1st time through... You didn't even come close on that 1st trip. I'm not trying to be annoying or I'd say things much differently. I realize you're just a kid in reality, so I'm being quite nice. Yeah, I know you're not a kid in your opinion. In the ways of the world, however, you're nothing but...

How can you know there are others at my age that know better? You don't know my age. Be a dimwit with your college coeds. You're a kid to me.

First of all, you pointed out the exact same thing I pointed out, and then turned it around on me saying I've been trained "incorrectly." I'm shocked, really. And then the second part, your so stubborn and full of yourself it's comical, mildly irritating but you're entitled to your strong opinion. If it makes you feel any better or worse, I was born in 85. I don't know what times you've lived through and what you've "been taught" but I know there are others your age that know better and don't proclaim to be so wise beyond their years every chance they get. Looking at the first few pages of this thread, I noticed a lot of people disagreed with your opinion, but you were the most vocal, do you believe every one of them isn't as old or as young as you?

Edit: Since you took my first sentence out of context, to clear up what I meant; when the market is volatile, there is no real change in consumption between a day or two to warrant such changes in prices, it's just speculation. One day they hear news Europe is going to pull through, so they put more money in oil thinking the recovery will get people driving again. The next there is a stall on progress because they can't agree to the proper wording of this or that negotiation and investors or rather speculators pull out and back down it goes. There wasn't a real substantive change in supply and demand there, yet that fluctuation may have been enough to change gas prices for those few days. That, coupled with the fact that I have to pay for every new epiphany these speculators have about the direction of oil prices every other day, as they're playing with our money with nothing substantive to loose, is more irritating to me than you'll ever be, but I applaud you for trying :eyes:.


the market is volitale, because oil is traded as a commodity now. before, it wasn't.

in 1979, i was paying .89 for 89 octane leaded regular. i was also dealing with rationing, because we were "running out" of gas. that in all obviousness was bullshit. just as much as it is right now.
as recently as 6 years ago, gas was below 2 bucks a gallon. i believe it was around then that it started getting traded on the market.
now, at the flick of a booger in the wrong direction, the price goes up. i mean.....c'mon....iran threatens to close the straight of hormuz(i think that's the name of it), and the price shoots up?
REALLY?? who the fuck is stupid enough to believe that they can close it for an hour, much less long enough to make any problems??

then there's the refineries closing. why? why are they closing? they should be producing, and storing. we lost 2 at least up here in the northeast, that supposedly account for 20% of the gas in this section of the country.

it's a big hot mess, which needs straightening out.......most of us don't have the answers.

i do agree with alternatives.....but the volt is(or was for a bit) a sham. they tried passing it off as a fully electric car, which it is not. they try to tell you that it's gonna get 93mpg in one sentence, and in the next they tell you it has a highway range of up to 379 miles. well guess what? my 400hp gt has that range and then some on the highway. as do most of your guys cars here.

of the hybrid types, i think toyota's got it best so far. the prius isn't all that bad, although i personally don't care for them(they're ugly).

i would think cng(which some govt. agencies use already) would be a better alternative. or hydrogen. read here. norway had the right idea. i don't know what ever became of it though.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_highway

i would think cng(which some govt. agencies use already) would be a better alternative. or hydrogen. read here. norway had the right idea. i don't know what ever became of it though.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_highwayCNG is a PAIN to bother with, as it takes too long to fuel up and the distance traveled isn't good enough before needing a refill. Of course, having nearly all the stations in Oklahoma might present a fill up challenge for someone living in, say, Florida... It's CHEAP, but the economy isn't good. Worse still, it needs a MASSIVE fuel tank to really store any amount of fuel AND, by law, the tank must be replaced periodically, at a rather hefty cost. I drove an F-150 on CNG and the tank used nearly half of the 8' bed... Oh, and it says not to put anything on it, etc. It had a range of about 225miles and held the equivalent of some 15 liquid gallons, but in gaseous form, that required big space. It wasn't worth the effort, even at $1.47 per "gallon."

By the way, if I was forced to get a Hybrid, it would be the Insight, currently. That said, the new Ford Fusion will take over that spot(based on it being a great car) once they release the next model, which I've heard will be rated at 47mpg (city). One car I would NOT be interested in buying is also a Ford... The FOCUS ELECTRIC... I don't care if it goes 100miles between charges... $40,000(like VOLT) is simply too much for that small car.

i would think cng(which some govt. agencies use already) would be a better alternative. or hydrogen. read here. norway had the right idea. i don't know what ever became of it though.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_highway

Hydrogen cars have some very tough hurdles to overcome. They are very expensive requiring very rare metals currently for it to work properly. Might as well built a solar highway and get electric cars to wirelessly recharge as they travel. There are some crazy possibilities with electric cars, using water as fuel sounds great because you're so used to the pump, but it's mighty convenient that the fuel industry will be the ones to rely on again for that technology. With the shenanigans they pull these days, I'm not thrilled with the thought of that. I'd rather they have some competition after 100 years now. I'm curious how you feel about monopolies.

I see one every morning on my way home from work.


Not a bad looking car IMO.

I love it when people compare miles per tank. It's a completely useless metric since there is no standard fuel tank size. A semi can go 1500 miles on a fill, but that fill is 300 gallons. My Trans Am would go 9,000 miles on that same amount of fuel, even though I have to stop and fill up every 400 miles.

So what if it only goes 379 miles per tank. If it only takes 9-10 gallons when you fill it up, it's still getting way better mileage than a car that goes 400 miles but takes 16 gallons to fill. That's a difference of 37.9-42.1 MPG to 25 MPG.

BTW, I don't know the tank size nor real world mileage of the volt, that example is merely to show how useless a metric miles per tank is. I'd love to stop every 100 miles for gas if I only had to put a gallon in to top it off...