Cadillac CTS-V - Cts V dropped a Valve!!!




View Full Version : Cts V dropped a Valve!!!


Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 01:34 PM
As I was pulling out I the parking lot where I work last week my 05 cts v started knocking, lost power and locked up! Car only has 80k miles on it so I was shocked to say the least. All stock except for intake. Pulled the valve cover....


Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 01:35 PM
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/d829e14f.jpg

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 01:44 PM
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/d829e14f.jpg


NeverSatisfied02
03-20-2012, 01:46 PM
Damn... That sucks! What's ur plans for fixing it?

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 01:49 PM
Pulled the head next....

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 01:56 PM
First pic
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/85950e2e.jpg

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/99e6d79e.jpg

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/376993b0.jpg

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/7eea7bde.jpg

So what now?

07CTS-V
03-20-2012, 02:43 PM
Tear down and rebuild......better.

JJSimon904
03-20-2012, 02:49 PM
damn that sucks...good excuse to do a fun build though!

chasgiv3
03-20-2012, 02:53 PM
Are those valves the same as found in the C6 Z06's? My buddy at a speed shop said they won't even put one on a dyno unless the owner signs off that they may drop a valve due to the number of times they've seen issues with the valves.

For some reason those sodium filled valves tend to snap under full load.

tim99ws6
03-20-2012, 03:11 PM
Are those valves the same as found in the C6 Z06's? My buddy at a speed shop said they won't even put one on a dyno unless the owner signs off that they may drop a valve due to the number of times they've seen issues with the valves.

For some reason those sodium filled valves tend to snap under full load.




LOLOL, what!?


There were some early year failures with guys running stupid spring pressures and the valve giving, but that's a little extreme, haha.

shadyLS6
03-20-2012, 03:13 PM
that blows! 80K that's just gotta be a freak occurrence, especially if you were just leaving a parking lot. :bang:

Are those valves the same as found in the C6 Z06's? My buddy at a speed shop said they won't even put one on a dyno unless the owner signs off that they may drop a valve due to the number of times they've seen issues with the valves.

For some reason those sodium filled valves tend to snap under full load.

first i have heard of that.. i thought the sodium filled valves were better than traditional solid stem valves b/c they allowed for more heat to escape and keep the exhaust valves from burning up. plus are lighter decreasing the load on the springs


http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1162335-ls6-hollow-vs-solid-valves.html

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 04:14 PM
I have to get this going pretty soon, and on a tight budget unfortunately. Hoping to replace the piston, hone the cylinder, and check the rod and bearings. Gotta find out if these heads can be built or I need a new one. I would like to at least get some better valve springs! Any suggestions? Only have $1500ish to work with. :(

raven154
03-20-2012, 04:49 PM
Are those valves the same as found in the C6 Z06's? My buddy at a speed shop said they won't even put one on a dyno unless the owner signs off that they may drop a valve due to the number of times they've seen issues with the valves.

For some reason those sodium filled valves tend to snap under full load.

Obviously the valve was not the culprit. You can see its still intact, just bent to shit. Looks like the spring broke and the lock and retainer popped off causing the valve to drop.

I would bet money the head could be repaired but a set of ported 243's cost so little I would probably go that way. Or see how much it cost to repair and port your stock heads.

Also, I have 5 good used pistons with less than 80k. They still have the rod attached and are in good condition. If you are interested let me know. I'll let you have one cheap.

DMM
03-20-2012, 04:50 PM
You can get 243 or 799 (same damn thing) without the hollow valves on the cheap, with no performance loss...think sets go for $350 on ebay...singles are even cheaper. Spend the $50 and get all new LS6 "Yellow" springs when you reassemble. Also, GMPP has a head gasket and head bolt kit (think its for F-body's) on the cheap for like $90...search GENIII engine section. Otherwise, you can use 12589226 - hd gasket (pr) ($17.57) and ARP bolts (since they are re-usable), like I did.

LS6 pistons are the same as LS1's (just matched weight), if you post over in GENIII engine section you may find quite a few people that have OE LS1 take outs for just the shipping costs.

That really sucks man, looks like the spring broke, dropping the valve into the cylinder. Hope the wall is not cracked. FWIW...you may be better off getting an LS1 shortblock (think there was one in the classifieds here for $750?) and swap your cam with the ebay heads. No machine work, nothing to question.

Last resort, you could always get a junk yard 5.3 and swap your LS6 cam, pushrods, and new LS6 valve springs for a low buck solution. I would do it in a heartbeat if my back was against a wall. This would need a tune, but you probably would not notice much of a difference from stock after the tune anyhow.

Best of luck to ya. Its honestly going to be pretty damn hard building a motor on $1500.

RRsV
03-20-2012, 05:00 PM
Glad I sold my V.

raven154
03-20-2012, 05:02 PM
Keep in mind the solid valves are shorter so you would likely need different length pushrods.

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 05:08 PM
I read somewhere the ctsv didn't get he sodium filled valves or yellow springs. So would zo6 243s be considered an upgrade? And I've been looking into the ls1 or 5.3 options, but was hoping to save my motor. The cylinder has a very light scratch that you can't hang a nail on. Maybe an inch long. Maybe I can hone it out?

jbridwelltransam
03-20-2012, 05:15 PM
dang I'm sorry for you. Oh well time to make it faster!

raven154
03-20-2012, 05:17 PM
You have an 05 so yes you do have the hollow valves. 04-05 had the LS6 which had hollow valves. 06-07 had the LS2 which has solid valves.

C5 Z06 heads are exactly what you already have.

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 05:23 PM
Then why don't I have yellow springs? I do think I remember the valve thats broken being hollow. I'm going to look when I go back to the shop.

raven154
03-20-2012, 05:23 PM
I forgot, I also have a bag full of valves too. I bent a valve and had all of them replaced because I got such a good deal on a set of take outs. If you want the piston, I'll through in a couple valves too.

raven154
03-20-2012, 05:26 PM
Then why don't I hav yellow springs? I do think I remember the valve thats broken being hollow. I'm going to look when I go back to the shop.

Not all 243's had yellow springs. My car didn't have yellow springs as did many other LS6 guys in here. There was a discussion just a month ago about the yellow spring issue and some car not having them. It's normal.

DMM
03-20-2012, 05:31 PM
Not all 243's had yellow springs. My car didn't have yellow springs as did many other LS6 guys in here. There was a discussion just a month ago about the yellow spring issue and some car not having them. It's normal.

Yeah, the early ones were blue striped, followed by yellow striped, followed by all yellow. The yellow striped (the ones you have, the blue striped were from 02 and before) did have a problem with breaking, just as yours did.

The lighter valves don't really do much unless you are road racing and hanging in the 4500-6000 RPM range.

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 05:40 PM
Thanks for all the info! So is it going to be possible to get the oil pan off, disconnect the rod, hone the cylinder, and put in the replacement piston and rod, without pulling the engine? What's the worst that could happen? ;)

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 05:41 PM
And I would love to have the valves too just in case I can have these heads fixed. Thanks!

raven154
03-20-2012, 05:49 PM
Would be better to pull it. I've always pulled mine so I can't really offer any advise other than the cradle is in the way from pulling the pan. Engine out or cradle out basically.

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 05:54 PM
Well I don't have a lift, just a hoist. Any advice on bringing it out the top? Guess this would be a good time to pull the bumper to change that flickering hid I've been putting off.

ITSAV
03-20-2012, 05:59 PM
looks really familiar man....I had this happen a couple weeks ago....motor is at machine shop now....honestly I would recommend checking your bearings....the bearings on each side of the damaged piston had begun to spin..I'm sure if I just did the head and restarted the car, it would have spun both of those bearings.....here is what mine looked like......but just to be on the safe side, I am having the motor cleaned up, and new bearings installed

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/coltonc18/IMAG0079.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/coltonc18/IMAG0080.jpg

raven154
03-20-2012, 06:03 PM
Well that's another issue as well. If you you pull out the top with no trans, the cradle will have to drop a few inches to clear the pan. If you pull it all (trans bolted to the engine) you can pull it without dropping the cradle but you need the car high to get the transmission to drop far enough to pull it all out.

By the way, got the money. Piston and valves will go out in the morning!

adanieljohnson1
03-20-2012, 06:14 PM
I just spun a rod bearing last week also with 80k miles... Buddy said that he will fix and stroke it for me if I pull it and bring it to the shop for $1600 or have the motor rebuilt and dyno'd for just over $3300... I wanna get her stroked but the wife is just wanting to get her rebuilt..

wcryan
03-20-2012, 07:02 PM
my LS2 had yellow valve springs.

Long story, but those were my stock ones

ColeGraham
03-20-2012, 07:03 PM
I just spun a rod bearing last week also with 80k miles... Buddy said that he will fix and stroke it for me if I pull it and bring it to the shop for $1600 or have the motor rebuilt and dyno'd for just over $3300... I wanna get her stroked but the wife is just wanting to get her rebuilt..

Wife wins...and youre too much of a vajayjay to have more then stock power.

GhettoTy
03-20-2012, 08:07 PM
Then why don't I have yellow springs? I do think I remember the valve thats broken being hollow. I'm going to look when I go back to the shop.
You have any way of talking to the previous owner about whats going on with the springs? Should have the yellow springs

raven154
03-20-2012, 08:33 PM
You have any way of talking to the previous owner about whats going on with the springs? Should have the yellow springs

Not true

Daniel Whiddon
03-20-2012, 10:02 PM
So I guess the next step is pulling the engine. Anybody have a link to a how to? It's gotta come out the top... Unless I figure out to use my kubotas front end loader to lift the body off the cradle. Hmmm.
Any other weak links I should look into while it's apart? Timing chain, clutch, pushrods?
The transmission jumps out of first occasionally under load so may check that out while it's apart. And

raven154
03-20-2012, 10:33 PM
I think it's a good idea to change the oil pump and timing chain. Might as well look at the trans as well. Like others have said, check the bearings while you are in there. With 80k you should look at how much life is left in the clutch as well. The stock flywheels are notorious for failing.

jmargo
03-20-2012, 11:50 PM
Yeah, the early ones were blue striped, followed by yellow striped, followed by all yellow. The yellow striped (the ones you have, the blue striped were from 02 and before) did have a problem with breaking, just as yours did.

The lighter valves don't really do much unless you are road racing and hanging in the 4500-6000 RPM range.

Is it a good idea to upgrade the springs if I have the yellow striped one on my 04 ?

JJSimon904
03-20-2012, 11:55 PM
I read somewhere the ctsv didn't get he sodium filled valves or yellow springs. So would zo6 243s be considered an upgrade? And I've been looking into the ls1 or 5.3 options, but was hoping to save my motor. The cylinder has a very light scratch that you can't hang a nail on. Maybe an inch long. Maybe I can hone it out?
I have yellow springs as well.

ITSAV
03-21-2012, 06:15 AM
I just spun a rod bearing last week also with 80k miles... Buddy said that he will fix and stroke it for me if I pull it and bring it to the shop for $1600 or have the motor rebuilt and dyno'd for just over $3300... I wanna get her stroked but the wife is just wanting to get her rebuilt..

hmm strange, cause mine was right at 79K, kinda weird that 3 cars all had engine damage within a month of each other and similar miles lol.....I was looking at stroking my motor with it out.....but since the head was damaged, I'm just going to upgrade to better heads, and put a good size cam in there, instead of my small one

STAGEUP
03-21-2012, 07:26 AM
Most 04-05 ctsvs did not have the yellow valve springs.

ITSAV
03-21-2012, 12:43 PM
Most 04-05 ctsvs did not have the yellow valve springs.

mine didnt either

raven154
03-21-2012, 04:09 PM
Piston/rod and an intake and exhaust valve went out today. Should be there in 2-3 days.

Just wanted to add that these are the hollow and sodium filled valves so they will be the same length as your valves. My old valves were in the process of being reground when we found the bent one so they are already cut. They just need to be lapped in to the new seats and you should be good to go. It was pretty rainy so I sprayed everything down with WD-40 and placed them in plastic bags. The valves are wrapped in the paper on top so don't drop them when you pull the paper out.

Daniel Whiddon
03-21-2012, 08:52 PM
Thanks for your help raven! I'm going to pull the engine in the next few days. Copied these instructions......
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/dcd9c2e5.jpg
Sounds easy enough :)
The last motor I pulled was from my 71 bug, it had ALOT less things to unplug! I'll keep updating the thread with pics. (and questions too I'm sure)

meatyCTS-V
03-21-2012, 10:13 PM
Just remember to add a little masking tape with labels on anything you think you might forget!

To vac hoses, connectors, etc.

Good luck, and take it slow and easy, and hopefully you won't f anything up!

-meaty

Bo White
03-22-2012, 04:45 PM
This is what makes a forum great, fellow members pulling together to help someone out.
Tight budget but need to upgrade when ya can I would:
Overhaul the engine using the parts that were sent to ya, fix/replace the castings and do "some work" to em while they are off, GMPP Hot Cam and spring kit(since you have to buy springs anyway) and throw 'er back together.

heavymetals
03-22-2012, 05:05 PM
Since you are going to replace all the springs, I suggest looking at the trunion upgrade as you have to remove them anyway.

LAYGO
03-22-2012, 05:31 PM
The last motor I pulled was from my 71 bug, it had ALOT less things to unplug!

From memory:
Fuel line
accelerator cable
ground
4 13mm bolts around bell housing

Rock & pull, pull & rock.

Back in '90-'91, I could drop the motor, tighten the gland nut, and back up all during lunch.

D.K
03-22-2012, 06:57 PM
From memory:
Fuel line
accelerator cable
ground
4 13mm bolts around bell housing

Rock & pull, pull & rock.

Back in '90-'91, I could drop the motor, tighten the gland nut, and back up all during lunch.

17mm ;)

liqidvenom
03-22-2012, 10:11 PM
Sucks to hear, hopefully this gets done quickly

why does this seem to happen so often to these motors? is it a build quality issue or something?

heavymetals
03-22-2012, 10:23 PM
# of incidents vs # built is still a low # but no comfort if it happens to you.

Usually a standard practice on any modded motor is to at least change the springs.

LS6 did suffer from a bad production of springs, and that doesn't mean that the replacements are guaranteed not to fail either.

I say be thankful there are replacement parts that really improve reliability.

lollygagger8
03-26-2012, 11:49 AM
Same thing happened to my V with previous owner, but was at 56k or 58k. GM replaced his motor with a GM crate engine after Hedrick called them. (flew down to NC to buy it and drove it back home - got every single paper ever done to the car and talked to the Service Mgr @ Hedrick just to make sure it was all legit)
Old engine did not have the yellow valves

There's a few pic in this writeup of the trans and bell housing bolts...maybe it'll help when you are pulling the trans.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2004-2007-cadillac-cts-v-performance/181141-monster-clutch-install.html

2c5s
03-26-2012, 11:58 AM
Are those valves the same as found in the C6 Z06's? My buddy at a speed shop said they won't even put one on a dyno unless the owner signs off that they may drop a valve due to the number of times they've seen issues with the valves.

For some reason those sodium filled valves tend to snap under full load.

Thats how I lost my 438" LS7. Fricken bullshit GM 2 piece valve.

Daniel Whiddon
03-27-2012, 09:06 PM
Hopefully I'll have time to work on it Friday! Thanks for the thread on how to pull the trans. Sometimes it jumps out of first if you don't go to second before downshifting to first. I might as well fix that while it's out. Any clues where to start? Bent or worn shift fork?

raven154
03-27-2012, 10:01 PM
Most likely just a worn syncro but could be worn shift fork pads. Did you get the parts?

Daniel Whiddon
03-27-2012, 10:03 PM
Got a slip in the mailbox today, im gonna go to the post office tomorrow. Thanks again!

lollygagger8
03-28-2012, 09:27 AM
Hopefully I'll have time to work on it Friday! Thanks for the thread on how to pull the trans. Sometimes it jumps out of first if you don't go to second before downshifting to first. I might as well fix that while it's out. Any clues where to start? Bent or worn shift fork?

I would guess worn syncro as well.

Daniel Whiddon
03-28-2012, 09:44 AM
Is that easy to fix? I don't know alot about working on transmissions.

LAYGO
03-30-2012, 11:48 AM
17mm ;)

AH! I see, it was from memory! ;)

Bo White
04-29-2012, 09:04 AM
Update?

punishmentcycle
04-29-2012, 09:53 AM
Easiest way to get the motor out the top is to pull the heads.. Motor lifts right out.. Of course you have to pull the trans , headers and all

UAE_Z28
04-29-2012, 10:07 AM
Ouch, any ideas why did this happen?

raven154
04-29-2012, 03:48 PM
Ouch, any ideas why did this happen?

Valve spring broke, lock and retainer came off, valve dropped.

DougNuts
04-29-2012, 08:08 PM
Where can a guy buy a set of the yellow valve springs? I think I'm going to do them as preventive maintenance.

9t8z28
05-04-2012, 01:06 PM
Holy chit, that blows!

9t8z28
05-04-2012, 01:06 PM
Is the cylinder wall all messed up ?

Daniel Whiddon
11-23-2012, 05:35 PM
Man my schedule has been crazy! I finally got around to pulling the engine. Had the head checked and repaired. Cylinder walls are perfect. I went ahead and bought a set of gm ls6 springs(updated?). I was expecting yellow, but they turned out being blue. As long as they aren't grey!

Anyway I ran into a snag when I pulled the piston and rod. The one that I got to replace it looks different? Put a caliper on it and it all measures the same.
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/caddy/680609CC-9714-4DD6-8879-90105BD77CEA-30909-000001A7604681A6.jpg

MIAdragon
11-23-2012, 06:21 PM
the one on the left looks like a 4.8/5.3 rod.

Daniel Whiddon
11-23-2012, 06:32 PM
The one on the left is the one I pulled out. The piston diameter and rod length are identical?

raven154
11-23-2012, 08:35 PM
Never mind. See below.

raven154
11-23-2012, 08:40 PM
Never mind. See below.

raven154
11-23-2012, 09:06 PM
Found this. This was the first I heard they changed anything in the LS6. My apologizes. Might have a hard time finding 2005 specific LS1/6 rod and piston.

I noticed your piston has a clip for the wrist pin so I searched floating wrist pin LS6 and found this post.


Awesome, thanks dude!

New for 2005: "The 5.7L LS1 and LS6 V-8s are equipped with new floating-pin pistons. First introduced on GM Powertrain’s Vortec 6000 H.0. V-8, these pistons feature wrist pins that “float” inside the rod bushing and the pin bores in the piston barrel. Previously, the LS1 and LS6 used a fixed-pin assembly, in which the connecting rod is fixed to the piston’s wrist pin, and the pin rotates in the pin bore. Snap rings now retain the wrist pin in the piston, while the rod moves laterally on a bushing around the pin. The floating pins were introduced as an interim change late in the 2004 model year."

Daniel Whiddon
11-23-2012, 11:51 PM
Found a link that seems to say that I have a fourth gen rod? http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-forced-induction-nitrous/2981813-connecting-rod-comparison-ls3-vs-ls6.html
My rod is actually in good shape, the bearings still looked good too. Anybody know the part # for the piston I need? I think I'll just reuse this rod with new bearings and bolts.

Daniel Whiddon
03-13-2013, 04:08 PM
Finally got the engine reassembled! Dropped it back in yesterday. I decided at the last minute to go ahead and replace the flywheel and clutch with a complete ls7 set up from one of the vendors. Hopefully she'll be back on the road soon!

Daniel Whiddon
03-13-2013, 06:43 PM
Btw, I ordered part #12499224 from two different locations trying to get yellow springs. I got blue both times. I decided to roll with the blue ones! Any reason I should be worried?
http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q590/dwwhiddon/0EBC8694-EC41-4CA4-BEA9-668477630A29-10917-000005899FB58A21.jpg

DMM
03-13-2013, 07:15 PM
Those are the updated LS6 springs. Surprised that you are going with the beehives again after such a costly repair. The step up to dual springs is well worth the investment. Brain Tooley springs are the way to go here.

Daniel Whiddon
03-13-2013, 07:39 PM
I'm hoping it was a combo of it being a fluke as far as the bad spring, and/or the previous owner over reved it alot. Most people that I've talked to that know these engines, seem shocked that one failed on a stock motor. As a matter of fact I sold the other set of springs to a tech at the local dealership for an engine he's building for his personal car. I got these for 60$. I would love to have duals, but cheapest set up I could find was $350ish. that's more than I had spent on the entire repair before I ordered the clutch today. I'm on a tight budget at the moment! Ported heads and a cam are on the wish list and it'll definitely get duals then.

DMM
03-13-2013, 07:48 PM
Totally understand the budget thing. I know your position, but thought I would throw this in for the purpose of the thread. Those should be good to go for a long while with a stock cam. However, with beehives, when they break there is no insurance. Dual springs keep the valve from dropping and save a LOT of time, money, and aggravation.

Here is a complete kit from Brian Tooley (which is one of the best guys you could ever deal with BTW) for only $209.

http://www.briantooleyracing.com/660-lift-extreme-spring-kit-with-tool-steel-retainers.html

Daniel Whiddon
03-13-2013, 08:33 PM
Cool! would they drop right in or would I need the heads modified to use them? They may go on my wish list.

DMM
03-13-2013, 08:40 PM
Cool! would they drop right in or would I need the heads modified to use them? They may go on my wish list.

"This is a drop in spring kit for the following engines: LS1 LS2 LS3 LS4 LS6 L76 L92 L99 LQ4 LQ9 L33 LSA. This kit will not fit LS9 engines."