Fueling & Injection - Compressed natural gas for high hp use (why can't it be done?)




5.3-on-steroids
03-23-2012, 10:26 PM
They recently opened a new cng station behind my house and it has really gotten me doing alot of research on the stuff. I know it's not new technology and fleet vehicle have been using it forever. But the things about it that really appeal to are:
2.19 a gallon as opposed to 3.95 for gasoline
no fuel pump required
130 octane
substabtially less emissions
130 octane and
130 octane....
I've done alot of reading and it seems most people switch to cng to save on fuel costs. But the only car i've really seem that makes a ton of power using cng was a SL65 benz with a v12 biturbo that has 800 hp and a standing mile record. I have an s10 with a 5.3 and a tc78 that makes 600 at the wheels right now. I would like to convert it to cng and get all its benefits and push it up to around maybe 800 hp or so and taking advantange of all of cng's benefits and at the same time retain the stock ecu and tune it with hp tuners. With 130 octane detonation shouldnt be an issue, i've read that it likes a higher than normal static CR and a very strong spark to ignite it completely.

My main problem is finding performance minded people that use cng and are willing to unleash the full potential of it. Along with finding a kit with the necessry parts to support such a large power goal. Any help, info, or links are greatly appreciated. Thanks


somedude
03-25-2012, 10:24 AM
I don't know much about it, but I was thinking about this in the shower about 20 min ago so finding this thread got my interest.

massconfusion
03-26-2012, 08:08 AM
Some one posted about a new camaro that ran off it. I think it made around 700hp or so. It got me real interested in it. Post up what you find


cjmatt
03-26-2012, 09:27 AM
Ive heard of a guy locally doing this with propane

5.3-on-steroids
03-26-2012, 07:39 PM
I know, I really want to see this take off but everyone has their head so far up the ass of gasoline I cant find much. Just think, how much would 130 octane race fuel cost? You can kiss detonation goodbye.

FICINJECTORS
03-26-2012, 08:18 PM
I know, I really want to see this take off but everyone has their head so far up the ass of gasoline I cant find much. Just think, how much would 130 octane race fuel cost? You can kiss detonation goodbye.

Injected engineering in kennesaw ga is building a 2012 camaro to run on propane, call Ryan he has a good handle on the systems, rails, etc.

Kory 88Iroc Lt1
03-26-2012, 08:40 PM
I'm interested in this as well. There was a thread a while back with pics of a 5th gen converted to cng. The op never posted after the origional thread start.
In for info.
Kory
Also any info on the 600whp turbo s10? sounds bad ass.

5.3-on-steroids
03-26-2012, 09:42 PM
Here is a few pics of the truck to be converted
http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l405/volvoti/rem30.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l405/volvoti/rem31.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l405/volvoti/rem32.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l405/volvoti/rem33.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l405/volvoti/rem34.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l405/volvoti/rem35.jpg

jimmyblue
03-26-2012, 09:43 PM
Propane wants a little more CR to be happy. CNG wants
diesel-range CRs (and can be mixed in those motors to
a pretty high degree). I suppose big boost on a more
"normal" CR could be a way to go.

CNG has lousy storage density, you can't do LNG without
a Dewar type tank. You see CNG mostly on short-route
busses where they have plenty of roof "real estate" for
the big-ass tanks.

Joules per liter and Joules per pound relative to propane
and gasoline and diesel, I think are all stacked against
natural gas.

5.3-on-steroids
03-26-2012, 09:46 PM
Injected engineering in kennesaw ga is building a 2012 camaro to run on propane, call Ryan he has a good handle on the systems, rails, etc.

Im gonna look into this thanks.

HRHohio
03-26-2012, 09:53 PM
95' s10 5.3 swap, 4L80e, turbonetics TC78 rear mount, self contained oiling. 630 rwhp

What A/R is that TC78? PSI? Cam? etc... Nice ride by the way.

What other upgrades? (Intake I see... otherwise?)

Just wondering for a friend. He's got a '03 GMC Sierra 5.3 with a front Mount T76.

Thanks!

5.3-on-steroids
03-26-2012, 09:54 PM
Propane wants a little more CR to be happy. CNG wants
diesel-range CRs (and can be mixed in those motors to
a pretty high degree). I suppose big boost on a more
"normal" CR could be a way to go.

CNG has lousy storage density, you can't do LNG without
a Dewar type tank. You see CNG mostly on short-route
busses where they have plenty of roof "real estate" for
the big-ass tanks.

Joules per liter and Joules per pound relative to propane
and gasoline and diesel, I think are all stacked against
natural gas.

I called this company the other day. http://ewsews.com/cnghome.html

They only have mixer sytems which is not the route I plan to go, but they have CF wrapped aluminum tanks that store a GGE equivelant to 10 gallons of gasoline that weigh in around 150 lb. I need the extra weight in the back of the truck anyway. What do you mean by "all stacked against natural gas"?

5.3-on-steroids
03-26-2012, 10:00 PM
What A/R is that TC78? PSI? Cam? etc... Nice ride by the way.

What other upgrades? (Intake I see... otherwise?)

Just wondering for a friend. He's got a '03 GMC Sierra 5.3 with a front Mount T76.

Thanks!

Thanks, .96 a/r, LS6 cam and intake, comp pushrods and springs, siemens 60lbs, number was recorded on 11psi. Thats about it. I would like to ditch all that stuff and switch to a single plane tapped for cng nozzles, that would be tits.

HRHohio
03-26-2012, 10:25 PM
Thanks, .96 a/r, LS6 cam and intake, comp pushrods and springs, siemens 60lbs, number was recorded on 11psi. Thats about it. I would like to ditch all that stuff and switch to a single plane tapped for cng nozzles, that would be tits.

Nice Mods. Thanks for the quick reply. I'll pass the word.
(He got some poor numbers on the dyno this weekend. T76 w/.81 AR, Front Mount on his 5.3 only put down 353 rwhp @ 12 psi!) We can't seem to figure it out.)

Back to the subject. What about porting in the CNG or Propane into the throttle body like N20 or Methanol/Water Inj, to supplement the gasoline, increase octane, cool IAT, but not depend on it as the primary fuel?

slpfirehawk415
03-26-2012, 10:55 PM
The odds are stacked against it in that it has a much lower engergy density. "Generally" standard size cars using CNG make about 25% less power as far as I know, which relates to its reduced molecular energy potential. As for using it to increase octane, anything is possible in some sense but in practical terms I think it may be hard to nail because you have a lot of molecular instability spraying in a hydrocarbon chain like gas thats maybe 16 or 17 carbons long and then throwing in some tiney single carbon NG. I mean it could work but if it weren't perfect then the 16 would detonate and the NG would burn. I would see it as being possible but in practical application I think it would be a lot of money on parts that you could come out with more hp from gas because of energy density when executed correctly, even accounting for the octane difference, but if the project is for fun and learning it would be cool.

HRHohio
03-27-2012, 09:18 AM
The odds are stacked against it in that it has a much lower engergy density. "Generally" standard size cars using CNG make about 25% less power as far as I know, which relates to its reduced molecular energy potential. As for using it to increase octane, anything is possible in some sense but in practical terms I think it may be hard to nail because you have a lot of molecular instability spraying in a hydrocarbon chain like gas thats maybe 16 or 17 carbons long and then throwing in some tiney single carbon NG. I mean it could work but if it weren't perfect then the 16 would detonate and the NG would burn. I would see it as being possible but in practical application I think it would be a lot of money on parts that you could come out with more hp from gas because of energy density when executed correctly, even accounting for the octane difference, but if the project is for fun and learning it would be cool.

I think I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with a couple of things from your statement. Just a difference of opinion, not trying to be mean.

Point 1: "The odds are stacked against it in that it has a much lower engergy density. "Generally" standard size cars using CNG make about 25% less power as far as I know, which relates to its reduced molecular energy potential." - Once could say the same for ethanol or E85. Much lower energy potential, makes 25% less power in same engine. BUT some of the most powerful engines are running on ethanol because of it's high octane/anti-knock properties. Upping the compression and/or increasing the boost allows us to take advantage of this. We're not talking about just switching fuels, we're talking about a redesign in engine technology.

Point 2: " As for using it to increase octane, anything is possible in some sense but in practical terms I think it may be hard to nail because you have a lot of molecular instability spraying in a hydrocarbon chain like gas thats maybe 16 or 17 carbons long and then throwing in some tiney single carbon NG." - Isn't this what we're doing with Methanol Injection? Spraying a tiney single carbon, in this case CH3-OH instead of CH4, into the throttle body to be mixed with the "hydrocarbon chain like gas" (i.e. aerosolized/vaporized by the fuel injectors).

Point 3: "I would see it as being possible but in practical application I think it would be a lot of money on parts that you could come out with more hp from gas because of energy density when executed correctly, even accounting for the octane difference..." - What we've found through the use of E85 is that despite the fact that the energy density is less than gasoline, the Octane properties overcompensate. Generally, we are able to get 10-15% MORE power from an engine properly setup using E85 than we could with straight gasoline.

E85 has become huge in the racing scene over the past 10 years because people have tested it and figured out how to take advantage of its chemical properties (i.e. higher octane). We just realized that because of the lower energy density, we need to up the injectors and fuel flow. I think CNG might be the new E85.

Just my opinions of course. Not hating on ya. :)

GulfM3
03-27-2012, 09:43 AM
I don't know how much HP these injectors will flow, but I would assume with a custom fuel rail and CNG regulator you could use HP tuners to run CNG with the stock computer.
Crank up the boost and add lots of timing.... I'd really like to see what kind of numbers you can make!

http://www.ngvglobal.com/new-delphi-cng-injector-to-reduce-emissions-by-25-ready-2011-0914

The injectors are $$$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Bosch-0280158827-NGI-2-CNG-Fuel-Injectors-1079-00-/370482180077?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item5642756fed&vxp=mtr#ht_1236wt_1165

Biggest problem with most cars converting to CNG is the tank, your S10 would be a perfect candidate, plenty of room in the bed.

NemeSS
03-27-2012, 11:50 AM
No way is it practical in street/strip type CAR.
S10,trucks,suv. And even the boat of the 5th. As if it wasn't heavy enuff alredy. I've looked into this stuff, since there is a cng station 1 miles down from where I live.
But just not practical for typical car use IMO.

Now, I've been experimenting with a. Old cast iron sbc 305. Been adding acetone mixed with the gasoline. Seems to be more responsive. If it holds. I'm gonna mill the iron heads to raise scr and increase the acetone ratio. Right now I got it at 10gas:1:ac. Ran just got more responsive and more peppy. Tolerates a bit more total timing. Hasn't burned down or caught fire. Yet....

HRHohio
03-27-2012, 03:09 PM
No way is it practical in street/strip type CAR.
S10,trucks,suv. And even the boat of the 5th. As if it wasn't heavy enuff alredy. I've looked into this stuff, since there is a cng station 1 miles down from where I live.
But just not practical for typical car use IMO.

Now, I've been experimenting with a. Old cast iron sbc 305. Been adding acetone mixed with the gasoline. Seems to be more responsive. If it holds. I'm gonna mill the iron heads to raise scr and increase the acetone ratio. Right now I got it at 10gas:1:ac. Ran just got more responsive and more peppy. Tolerates a bit more total timing. Hasn't burned down or caught fire. Yet....


Realistically, it's getting harder and harder to have an NA car that's street/strip. Turbo or Supercharged cars however are able to get incredible numbers while maintaining streetability.

As far as Acetone goes, at $16 a gallon, I think we'd be better off with Racing Fuel (locally $8 a gallon). BUT. I like your thinking... experimentation leads to new innovations!

Wish you luck, report back any observations. :)

5.3-on-steroids
03-27-2012, 09:36 PM
I don't know how much HP these injectors will flow, but I would assume with a custom fuel rail and CNG regulator you could use HP tuners to run CNG with the stock computer.
Crank up the boost and add lots of timing.... I'd really like to see what kind of numbers you can make!

http://www.ngvglobal.com/new-delphi-cng-injector-to-reduce-emissions-by-25-ready-2011-0914

The injectors are $$$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Bosch-0280158827-NGI-2-CNG-Fuel-Injectors-1079-00-/370482180077?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item5642756fed&vxp=mtr#ht_1236wt_1165

Biggest problem with most cars converting to CNG is the tank, your S10 would be a perfect candidate, plenty of room in the bed.

This is amazing, cost isnt an issue. Im determined to prove a point here. But what I need to know is how do they rate the flow on these injectors being that they don't flow liquid and if doing a rail setup like this if it deletes the need for a reducer (the mecanisim that takes it from 3600 psi to 5psi) and what fpr ect. So many grey areas but so close to reality.

GulfM3
03-27-2012, 10:16 PM
This is amazing, cost isnt an issue. Im determined to prove a point here. But what I need to know is how do they rate the flow on these injectors being that they don't flow liquid and if doing a rail setup like this if it deletes the need for a reducer (the mecanisim that takes it from 3600 psi to 5psi) and what fpr ect. So many grey areas but so close to reality.

looks like they are rated for 700kpa, or 100psi, which makes sense because thats the norm for traditional "fogger" style CNG systems. You will still need a regulator to drop the tank pressure to 100psi.

Also I found a couple forums stating they are good for 55hp each, in which case you would need to run two per cylinder to make real power.

BBrown79
03-31-2012, 11:47 PM
i was thinking about 11:1 for a boosted app. the valves need to be grinded at a different angle to reduce wear with ng. also the seats need to be of stellite also or the will wear prematurely. there are kits out there that run their own ecu for the ng. the flip of the switch your back to oem petrol.

BBrown79
04-01-2012, 12:01 AM
LPG 4.0 liter with a T51. ugly car but runs pretty good for a I6. im wondering what the enrgy density is beteween lpg and regular ng?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8NdXG_t95U

time3777
04-01-2012, 12:59 AM
Let me know how your acetone test goes man, I work at a chemical plant and we make around 1200 tons of acetone a day.